If you've been the victim of trauma or cruelty of any kind and you're struggling to heal, this episode reveals the pathway to healing. Mark Sowersby is a sexual and physical abuse survivor and he's a pastor and author of Forgiving the Nightmare and co-author of Letters to the Weary.

You can find Forgiving the Nightmare here: https://amzn.to/3E2Bf2X

You can find Letters to the Weary here: https://amzn.to/3WjCxgj

To learn more about Forgiving the Nightmare Ministry or see the film, visit: https://forgivingthenightmare.com/

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Transcript - The Healing Power of Forgiveness

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Today we are tackling a very difficult topic. We're going to be talking about forgiveness.

Forgiveness is something that can be an uncomfortable subject for most of us. It not only can

affect our health, but it can also affect our spiritual walk, and sometimes it can

interfere with our ability to be able to hear God clearly. So it's really important for us to be

able to understand what forgiveness means and the freedom that it can bring. And I've brought a

guest on our program to talk about this, and he will be with us in just a moment, so don't go

anywhere. Welcome to the Fatherhood Challenge, a movement to awaken and inspire

fathers everywhere, to take great pride in their role, and a challenge society to understand

how important fathers are to the stability and culture of their family's environment.

Now here's your host, Jonathan Guerrero. Greetings everyone. Thank you so much for joining me.

I brought a guest on. His name is Mark Sowersby. Mark is a pastor and also the author of a book

on forgiveness, and we're going to be talking about that book later on in the program.

Mark, thank you so much for being on the Fatherhood Challenge. Oh, thank you so much for having me.

It's an honor to be with you. Well, let's not waste a minute. Let's jump right into your story.

How does your story begin? Well, our story, our topic today is about forgiveness.

And in my story, there was an offense and abuse and a sorrow. And that's what I'm going to share

with you right now. I'm going to share with you what it's like for me when I grew up in a,

in a home full of abuse. You know, it's a subject that many men don't want to talk about. We,

we kind of run from it. We kind of hope it goes away. We, we get busy with other stuff, but, you know,

when I was seven years old, my mother would marry a man 20 years, her younger, and he would come into

our home and he would groom me. He would abuse me. He would molest my body. He would stab me and burn

me, summon the other men for their own sexual pleasures. And this was the atmosphere that I lived in

from the time I was seven to 14 years old. So that was my trauma. That was my nightmare and the pain

that went with that, the sorrow that went with that, the ugliness that went with that that trapped me

for many, many years. I'll just share this as much as I can remember that first night when he came

installed my innocence for me. I can remember the crackle of the threshold and the weight of his body,

the smell of his breath. And as much as that hurt his evil and ugly as that was, he left me with even a

deeper wound when he finished his abuse. He, he told me it was my fault. He told me this is what I,

I deserved it that no one would ever believe me. And even though the physical scars is ugly and as

deep as they were, that emotional scar lasted far longer than the physical one. So I had to go through

this journey that I learned to forgive. So I wasn't going crazy insane. I was angry. I wasn't just,

just lost all the time. And that's what I share about in our, in this story about forgiveness.

How did that shape your view of God? Well, it was a child in those early years. We didn't really

grow up with any kind of religion. My, my family was kind of like, well, be good and God's good and do

your best and God. So there really wasn't a religion standard. It was just we knew Jesus, we knew

Christmas and Easter. But we didn't really have a religion. So I didn't really think much about it.

You know, and those years when I was being abused, I tell everybody those seven years was,

I was just trying to survive. I wasn't trying to figure life out. I wasn't trying to thrive.

I, you know, I just had to survive to the next moment. I would say the next day, but if anybody's lived

with somebody that was, was an abuser, there was somebody that caused pain, you know, as somebody

is affected by that, you're just trying to figure out your next move. It's like playing chess. It's like

walking on eggshells. You never know what's going to tear them off or what's going to happen next.

So those seven years that ugly seven years that I experienced, it really was just survival.

I was just, I tell people, I didn't learn how to read. I learned how to duck. You know, it's just,

how do I get to the next day, get through the next moment? One of the things I know is common with

people who've gone through that is they need something to really numb, something to really forget

what, what it happens for some, it's alcohol for some, it's drugs. Was there ever a path like that for

you? Oh, sure, sure. You know, I would say that in those seven years, that's exactly how I felt.

I felt numb. That's exactly how I had to live in my mind if you would. Again, I didn't know these

terms or understand them when I was a child. I was just going through, but I became numb. The pain

was so bad. It was so horrific, so ugly, the lies and the attacks, I just became numb. And yeah,

as an adult, when it was all over at 14 years old, and I'll just share the rest that 14 years old

two things happened. I fought my attacker off. It wasn't a Mike Tyson moment. It wasn't a rocky

Val Boa, but you know, it wasn't MMA, but I pushed off my attacker and I ran. But also, I found a

leveled in my family who believed me. And they believed my story. They believed what was happening.

So they were able to protect me with their might and their power. So at 14, the abuse never took place.

It was over physically, but now I live with the scars and the pain of that, for the rest of

them for about 30 years. And as you said, when did I gravitate to it? I didn't gravitate to alcohol.

I didn't gravitate to drugs, but I gravitated to donuts. You know, and I found my comfort in food.

I found my comfort, my security, my blanket, my friend in hiding behind the refrigerator,

if you would. So that was my coping mechanism that I ate too much and talked too much. And that's

the journey that I think we're all on. You know, the the weight issue, the donut, the cake, the pizza,

was always lying to me. I was always waiting for the perfect one. You know, the next one will be

the perfect one. The next one will make me feel good. The next one, it's like any drug if you would.

It was always saying to me, look how good I taste. And don't worry about the cholesterol,

the blood pressure and everything else. So, you know, just like any, any habit, anything that's

destructive, a lie to us, to tell us it's good, but then leave with, leave with pain and sorrow.

But what happened to me? How did I find my way out? Well, after the abuse ended, I never wanted to

be at home. You know, the hell full of chaos. So I was the kid that was always out of somebody's,

always had somebody's house. I stayed too late. I ate over somebody's place. But we had to pool

in the apartment complex. We lived that. And I was about 15 and I said a prayer that I would come to

know as the sinner's prayer. Lord, forgive me my sins come live in my heart. I was only a kid.

And I probably didn't know the depth of that prayer, but God knew the depth of that prayer. He was

faithful to it. So what happened for me is the church. And again, I'll tell you the church is not full

of perfect people, filled with forgiven people. But the church for me truly became a sanctuary.

And I don't just mean that word in a holy sense. I mean that word in a protection sense.

So that kid who never wanted to be home, I was always at the church. I was every meeting. I think

what the adult prayer meetings, I went to, you know, the senior prayer meetings, I went to ladies

prayer, I went to mom's prayer. I just always was at the church and there's where I started to work

on this journey of hope to find my way out of this pain. Where was God during the abuse?

That's a great question. And I think anybody that's gone through trauma has asked themselves that

question. Everyone who's gone through a pain or abuse has to be intellectually honest with yourself,

God, where are you? We know you could control all things. We know they are in charge of all things.

Then why did these things happen? Why? And that's a hard journey to go through. That's really like a valley.

And like David said, I walk through the valley, but I'll fear no evil. And in that place, I will say God

gave me a perfect answer for me. And I want to underline that word for me. I wish I could give a perfect

answer for everyone. But that's not how it works. God gave me an answer to that hard question that

satisfied me. Now my answer is not going to satisfy anybody else. But you know, the Bible says

that we'll know his voice, the sheep know the shepherd, the shepherd's voice. And we'll know

his voice. So when God spoke to me in my heart, it was an audible. But when he spoke to me in my spirit,

my prayer closet, and I cried out, God, why? Where? What? When? And with a with a fist that was shaken,

God gave me the answer that was enough for me. And if I gave my answer, a lot of people would say,

well, that's not a good answer. But what if the answer I got was good enough for me? When I was a

kid and I first walked into a church and my faith was new and young, I didn't seek forgiveness. I

didn't even have to stay with that man. I sought the Lord. And then the Lord would eventually,

years and decades later, help me forgive those who trespass against me. But there's three things that

I learned that were very important to me during that time. And the first thing I learned is that

forgiveness is not approval. You know, I think there's a part of me thinking, if I forgive, I'm saying

it's okay. I'm saying it's right. No, what happened to me and happened to others is evil or wrong against

the law of bad. And you know, I don't approve of it. I don't accept it. I don't like it. But because I

forgave the personal abuse me does not mean I approve of what he did. So forgiveness is not approval.

The second thing I learned is that forgiveness is not a one-time event. You know, it's constant. We live in

a place of forgiving, being forgiven and forgiving others. You know, his mercy is made new every day.

The Bible tells us. And then I would say the third thing I learned was I could have my boundaries.

You know, I didn't have to have Christmas morning. I didn't have to stick my head back into the

lion's mouth. I could say, God, I forgave. And now I can have, I'm going to love this person because I

love them so much to put them in your hands. And that's what it meant to me. God loved the enemy. I'm

going to love as much. Lord, I can't spend time. There's still, there's still hurts and pains and

triggers. But I'm going to let this go. So no longer is the worst part of my life. Have to be the

sum of my life. So when that answer came, it came in waves. It came in pieces. It came in facets.

You know, it wasn't all at once. But as I grew closer to God, the answer became clearer and clearer.

And it was hard. It wasn't always, you know, this could be my moment. It was me wrestling myself

with my past, who I am, what I wanted to be, why it if and how. But eventually when I learned that I

could forgive because Christ first forgave me. And as God gave, brought me closer to Him, my perspective

changed. See, the abuse gave me a perspective, her shame and pain. But as I grew closer to God,

there was word in His Spirit, my perspective changed to love, mercy and grace. You know, I was being

jackal trapped bound to my abuser even years after it was over, even years after I saw His face, even years

after I heard His voice, I was still being trapped every day because of the angst and the pain and the

anger. And I wanted my pound of flesh and I wanted my revenge and I wanted, I wanted what I wanted.

But I learned what I could give that to Christ when I gave that to the God, when I said, Lord, you

are in control. That when I released that to God, I really got set free. I got set free because,

you know, I was carrying this, this yoke, I was carrying this pain, I was carrying this weight around

me all the time. And you know, when, and we think sometimes we can bury our traumas. We think sometimes,

well, if we don't talk about it, we can, we can kind of put in that nice little box with a bow

around it and just kind of forget about it. But pain always comes out. Pain always breaks something.

And ask the people you love, you might think you have it in this nice little place and you're not

going to think about it, but you know what, a lot of times our hurts are like the rudder to our life

and they gravitate us to things and they, they retreat us from other things. So, you know, those pains

that we think are put away and no one knows and, you know, they would be shocked if they ever find out,

let me tell you, it may not be coming out directly, but it's coming out somehow in self-medication

and easily fits of anger and just fears and anxieties. So, where did I find my freedom? I found it by

giving it to the judge, by giving it to the king, by giving it to the Lord, by giving it to my Savior.

Now, when I did that, I just said, you are in control. I'm releasing this. I'm letting it go.

What you will do with my abuser, you will do and you will be just, you will be right, you will not

be mocked, you are holy, but I have not in the place and I'm carrying this pain around too long

and I don't want to pass it on to my children. I don't want to live it, have it in my marriage

and I don't want to live it every day. And in that moment, I got said free. Like I said, I didn't

know what the worst part of my life to be the sum of my life. What are the generational consequences

or curses that can potentially rise up from generation to generation by not us individually

dealing with our unforgiveness? Well, I think that sometimes we pass that down, not intentionally.

Of course, we never want to, but our children see the way we respond to trauma. The children see the

way we talk. The children see the way that we handle things and they repeat it because that's

what we do. We raise them up. We train them in the ways. We chain them in good things and we train

them in hard things. And when we don't deal with our trauma, there may be an unspoken thing that

we're saying, "Hey, you don't have to deal with your traumas." You know, there's an old story about

two brothers and both of them had the same dad and the dad was an alcoholic and one became an

alcoholic and one did it and they asked each brother why and their answer was the same. The one who

became the alcoholic said, "My dad, the one who didn't said my dad." And what's that story telling

us that we pass on behaviors unintentionally, mostly. I know I'm passing down bad habits to my

kids. They watch too much TV. They eat too much snacks. Just ask my wife, but the big things of anger,

the big things of control, the big things to say, "Hey, it's all right to confront, not not in an

angry way, but let's not live dysfunctional. Let's live in function. Let's not have a, you know, this

kind of look out that, "Hey, I'm just going to be quiet and hold it all in, but I'm going to let it

out and let God lead me in that. You get in a place where you stop trusting anybody. I was in that place,

you know, I was in that place where I didn't trust anybody or anything, including God. And really,

that's one of the first things God had to teach me before he could teach me to forgive. God had

to show me how to trust Him. And that happened slowly and lovingly and compassionately and mercifully.

And as I learned to trust God in His ways, He came great my ways. And it gave me that

a perspective of the kingdom, you know, looking at the person and looking at the people and looking at

the hurts through the cross of Calvary, not just through Mark's revenge. But when I look at

Proverbs 3, and I think we're all familiar with that very famous scripture in Proverbs, "Trust in

the Lord with all your heart and lead not on your own or your standings." But in all your ways submit

to Him and He will make your past straight, where the first two things are very hard, right? Trust

in the Lord with all with all your heart and lead not on your own or your standing.

You know, my understanding was to take care of me. My understanding was to to get what I wanted. My

trust was in what I could do. But the Lord tells me to trust in Him. And I only and then Him,

that only comes through relationship. That only comes with knowing His Word and knowing, not knowing

a religion, but knowing Him in that relationship I learned to trust in Him. And then to submit,

right? Wait a second. That's the last thing I want to do. The last thing because last time I submitted,

I got wounded. Last time I got submitted, I got hurt. But the Lord tells me to submit all my ways

unto Him. And then the promise He gives me there in Proverbs is what? He will make the past straight.

When I received the detailed answer, it still was not a comfortable answer to hear. It was true.

It was right. I knew the answer was correct. And I could not argue with the answer. But it still

made me a little sick to my stomach. And I had to pray about it. And I had to get take some time to

actually process it. The answer I got and it was more like if you can think of it in a conversational

form, imagine me asking God, where were you when the abuse was going on? You could have stopped it.

You could have interfered. You are all powerful. So what was your excuse? What was your reason for not

stopping it? You could have destroyed the person or people actually several people involved.

You could have destroyed them all. So why didn't you do it? And the answer I got back was because

if I destroyed them, I would also have to destroy you. And that was that answer made me sick to my

stomach. And the reason why is because I knew what that meant. At that point, I saw so many of my

sins flashing before my eyes. And yes, a lot of those sins were a result of the abuse.

And when it comes down to it, the finger ultimately, when everything when this all shakes out,

when everything comes down the pipe and the end comes, the ultimate blame does fall on Satan.

Satan is the scapegoat. He is ultimately the source and he will wait. He will bear it all ultimately.

But again, justice is justice. We still have our responsibility. There are sins I participated in.

And it doesn't make any difference if what perpetuated me to commit those sins was anger from the

abuse doesn't make any difference. Sin is sin. I still committed the sin. It points back to me.

There is no getting out of that. It is what it is. And the penalty that I should have received

before it is being destroyed. The same is my abusers. The scales are equal. So if we want justice,

that's what true justice looks like. And that's the part that will make you sick to your stomach.

Now, the other part of the story is the plan of redemption. We have Jesus. We have His blood

that covers us. And ultimately, the point where I realized I had forgiven them is when I saw a

setting where there was a scene where I'm at the gates of heaven and there's God. There's the Father.

There's Jesus. There were my abusers. And the question was asked of me, what should I do with them?

Should I send them to hell? Or should I let them into heaven? And the question was given to me.

The GABA was handed back to me and I could choose. I realized I had forgiven them when I finally said

I know what I'm going to do. And I pointed to them and I said, if they are comfortable spending

eternity with Him and I pointed to Jesus, then I am comfortable spending eternity with them.

And that was my answer. That's when I realized I had forgiven and the GABA was right back into God's

hands. I just want people in the audience to be discouraged if you don't get the answer right away.

It isn't because God doesn't want to answer your question or because He won't. He will answer your

question. Believe me, if you ask, He will give you an answer. Are you ready to receive the answer?

The true answer. And that is a big determination. And when you get the answer, how you get it,

whether you get the answer in one piece or not, or the means by which God chooses to answer you.

That's also a factor. It's into your readiness. God is very careful. He's very gentle with us. He's

merciful with us. And He knows when and how we're ready. So trust God on that. Amen. Amen.

Good word, man. That's a very good, strong encouragement. My miracle, like your miracle, it sounds like

didn't come in a twinkly of an eye. It came through a journey. It came through walking and trusting

and going forward and trusting and believing and crying out. And there's good days and there's

hard days. And days where you had to deal with ugly stuff, days where you just got to say, God,

I don't want to deal with it at all. But in that process, you know, you and I've got our miracle.

You know, I wish somebody, hey, I went to church. I said a prayer and that's it. If that's their

story, amen, I'm going to rejoice with them. But I think more, more times than not, when people go

through trauma, it's the, it's the process. It's the journey. It's walking through the valley,

if hearing, no evil because that was with me. It's the process to know that as we grow as we go

through that refining fire, as we go through those seasons of testing, as we go through those times

of being a strengthened and you're right. I loved how you said that the answer came at the right time.

You know, when I was 14 years old and the abuse ended, I would never been able to hear or understand

the answer that I got. You know, God had it, but I would have been too angry. I would have been too.

No way. I would have dismissed it, but somewhere on that journey as God became greater and the pain

became less as God's mercy became stronger and the fear became less as the lies became quiet

and God's words became greater. And that journey is when God spoke to me. And like you, I said, God,

where were you? And he said, Mark, I've known you from your mother's womb. I was born from the fair. My

my birth father was married to another. It didn't really get to meet my birth father. So I was

45 years old, a lot of confusion, a lot of hurt. He said, Mark, I've known you from your mother's

womb and yet the enemy has tried to sift you since the moment you were born. And that was my answer

that I know from the moment I was born. I kept saying, why? Where? But now what the enemy has meant for

evil, I'm using for good. So even though I had to carry this cross, even though I had to walk through

this ugly stuff, and I'm not saying God did it, but God's using it. God's using this testimony,

using the story of me, forgiving my nightmare of me walking through my trauma of me. So I'm able to

share around the country. I'm able in my book and in our ministry to be able to share people

that have walked through traumas not too long ago. I was in Ohio and I was preaching,

like we're talking today about overcoming in the blood of the lamb. This woman came up to the

altar and she had to be in her early 80s. And all she said, me too, pastor. So it was the first time

in her life that she spoke these words, me too, meaning that I too went through abuse. Her husband

didn't know. They were married over 50 plus years. Her children were grown. They didn't know she had

grandchildren, the great-greater and so for almost 80 years, she carried that inside her. And when I

came to speak, not because of me, because of the word of God, because of the spirit of Lord,

she was able to begin to confess or begin to speak or begin to share. And in that moment, I watched

her children rally around her love and prayer and so many people love God. They had Christians.

They give, they go, they pray, they read, but yet they bury the shame down. And they say, Lord,

I just take it away. And yes, that's what we all want. But sometimes we've got to be willing to walk

walk through that journey. And I think like you said, you had to come to that place to say,

if they could spend their time with Christ, then I could spend eternity with them. And that's

what it's about. God is the judge. He is the one that's right. He is mighty and he is compassionate.

He is merciful and he is strength. And that's what we trust in. And that's what, that's what pulled me

out of my myri clay. So I am no longer trapped in this anger, this fear, this confusion, does it rise

up? Sure. Do I have my triggers? Of course, there's certain smells and sounds and places bring me back.

Yes. But those are the days when I remember, Lord, I forgave in you. I stand in your promise.

You know, I remember when my son was born, the first time became a father. And as my son came into

the world the usual way and they put in my arms, 10 fingers, 10 toes, my wife and I were happy. My

wife was healing from giving birth. At that moment as I held this little boy in my hand that the enemy

was lying to me, no one ever loved you that much. No one ever took care of you this much. No one

ever wanted to sacrifice for you as much. But in that moment, I didn't want my abuse to still

enjoy of my father. Boy, I, you know, the nerves, the, the, the, the, the, the old nerves, the what ifs, the

how it comes? Boy, I'm, but I had the joy of being a father for the first time. But yet that moment,

the enemy tried to bring up my past, bring up my fear to steal that moment. And that's what I had to say,

I forgave in Jesus name. I didn't feel it. It wasn't warm and fuzzy. It wasn't like, you know,

hallelujah music was playing in my ears. There was an angel singing, but yet I knew that I forgave

because I forgave in Jesus and I could stand upon the rock of Jesus Christ and enjoy that moment.

And that's what, that's what forgiveness. That's what life more abundant looks like. And I'm glad

that you had your moment where God gave you the hard answer, the ugly answer, but it was at the

right time. God gave me an answer. It was hard, but it was at the right time. And I know that it's

God does want to answer. God was wants to speak to us. His word is there for us. His spirit leads us

and those that have gone through trouble and say, why? Why? God wants to meet you with that why because

he is the I am. I am your God. I am your Savior. I am, I am the one who died for you. I'm your healer

and your Redeemer. So God wants to meet us in those places. So Mark, you've written a book about

forgiveness. Tell us a little bit about that book. Sure. Yeah. We wrote the story again. We just kind

of scratched on it a little bit today, but we wrote the story called forgiving the nightmare.

And I wrote not just my story, but I also wrote some principles and some practices. I didn't just

want to write a story. Hey, I'm an abused guy, but I wanted to give some tools. I wanted to give some

from some support. I wanted to give some principles on how I overcame those things. And it was by

dying itself and getting ahold of Christ. So my book's called forgiving the nightmare, forgiving the

nightmare. And yeah, we have a ministry call for giving the nightmare. And the book was last

a couple of years ago. We got actually got a new book coming out. It's a it's a devotional.

So I get to wear the pastor hat a little bit more. And it's called letters to the weary. So my book

for giving the nightmare, which is out right now, go to Amazon, go to forgive the nightmare.com,

our devotional, which is called letters to the weary. And this again, kind of sin, genre of encouragement,

support, and principles to help people through those traumas of life. I'm also going to post links to

make it easier for you to find marks books. So if you go to the fatherhood challenge.com, that's the

fatherhood challenge.com. If you go to this episode, look right below the episode description, I will

have the links posted there for your convenience. Mark, as we close, what is your challenge to that

dad listening that is struggling with his own history of abuse? My challenge would be to let him know

he's not alone. You know, the enemy loves to separate and isolate. And our traumas love to do

the same thing. So sometimes we really think we're the only kid that ever grew up like that. We think

we're the only person that ever had to deal with that. We think the only person or individual that

had to deal with that kind of junk, that kind of family, that kind of father. But I'll tell you the day

that's a lie from the end of this countless people. They're not perfect people, but the people who

love God, the people who can support you in your journey. There's a community out there that says,

"Hey, you're not the only one." Mark, thank you so much for sharing your story with us for giving us

hope and resources to be able to help you. Now it's out there who got through this, actually heal.

Thank you. Thank you as my honor and God bless you guys.

Thank you for listening to this episode of The Fatherhood Challenge. If you would like to contact us,

listen to other episodes, find any resource mentioned in this program or find out more information

about the Fatherhood Challenge. Please visit thefatherhoodchallenge.com. That's TheFatherhoodChallenge.com.

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