The Intangible Brand

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In construction, the unwritten rule is that the lowest bid wins the work. Daniel Wells and Nathan Sievers of Wells & Wells Construction built a multi-state firm on negotiated, repeat business instead.

In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead sit down with Daniel Wells, Owner and President of Wells & Wells Construction, and Nathan Sievers, Vice President and Director of Preconstruction, to talk about how a relationship-first philosophy built a nationally recognized general contractor.

Wells & Wells started in 1989 as a one-person home renovation business and got its first big commercial break because its electrician kept recommending it to a developer. Nearly four decades later, Daniel and Nathan explain how they kept that relationship-first approach while adding the structure needed to grow into new markets. That includes treating subs as part of the team, giving clients an open-book look at costs early in preconstruction, and hiring people who share the firm's values.

In this episode
• How a referral from their electrician, not a marketing plan, opened the door to commercial work
• Why relationships alone weren't enough to grow until the firm added structure
• Why preconstruction is where a client first forms a real impression of the brand
• How paying subs on time and banning yelling on site shows up in the finished project
• Why being the owner's advocate keeps developers coming back without a bid
• Why Wells & Wells hires for culture fit over résumé

Key Takeaways
• In an industry where no-shows are the norm, reliability is a brand. Doing what you say you'll do is enough to set you apart.
• Reputation is worth paying for. Wells & Wells sometimes spends real money to protect a move-in date, because there may be 300 students moving in, but there are 600 parents to answer to.
• Best value beats best number. Sometimes that means recommending a more expensive plumber when the low bid doesn't look right, and sometimes it means trusting the low bidder because they've earned it.
• Values on a wall mean nothing if leaders don't model them. Character shows up when there's a problem or when money is on the line, and teams learn by watching how their leaders react.
• Nathan's pick, Extreme Ownership, reflects his belief that every leader, whether leading a team or just themselves, should ask what they could have done better.
• Daniel's picks are about mindset: No Easy Day for pushing through hard moments, and The Millionaire Next Door for not judging customers by appearances.

Resource and References

• Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink and Leif Babin: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23848190-extreme-ownership
• No Easy Day by Mark Owen with Kevin Maurer: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/312085/no-easy-day-by-mark-owen
• The Millionaire Next Door by Thomas J. Stanley and William D. Danko: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/998.The_Millionaire_Next_Door

Learn more about Wells & Wells Construction: https://www.wellsandwells.com
Learn more about The Intangible Brand: TheIntangibleBrand.com

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Most young architects dream of buildings that change the world, and casinos rarely make that list. David Nejelski spent 30 years proving that the right casino can transform an entire community.

In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead sit down with David Nejelski, Vice President, Creative Director, and Principal at TBE Architects, to explore how three decades of designing casino resorts with tribal nations turned into a lesson about listening, trust, and impact.

David started at TBE as an intern and quickly moved into conceptual design when his hand sketching caught the eye of the firm's design director. Over 30 years, he has helped tribes across North America build properties that function as economic engines while honoring the culture behind them. He shares why his team walks in without preconceived ideas, how the industry moved from themed fantasy environments to energy and experience, and why the most rewarding projects are the ones where the client pushes back the most.

In this episode

• Why a casino's first job is to be an economic engine for the tribe
• How to weave in cultural heritage without falling into stereotypes
• Why guest convenience and operational efficiency aren't at odds
• How tribal clients have evolved from first-time developers to sophisticated operators
• Why no design idea is sacred, and how iteration breaks you out of chasing perfection
• When a niche firm should stay focused and when it should chase new opportunities

Key Takeaways

• Repeat clients come from not showing up with a prepackaged idea. When you ask what the client wants and help them realize it, even when you'd have advised otherwise, you build relationships that last decades.
• The goal isn't a monument to yourself. David's team says "we" instead of "I" because the design belongs to the client, and the real skill is hearing what they mean, not just what they say.
• Cultural expression works best when it's felt, not shouted. Abstracting stories and meaning into arrival sequences and public spaces honors heritage without turning a resort into a museum or a stereotype.
• Guest convenience is the guest experience. If it's a hassle to park, get inside, or find services, guests will go somewhere else, so smart design serves the operation and the visitor at the same time.
• Know what you want to be the best at, and keep your head up. David points to podcasts like My First Million for the entrepreneurial mindset his partners value: stick to your core values, and don't let the next opportunity pass you by.

Resource and References

• The Joe Rogan Experience: https://www.joerogan.com/
• My First Million podcast: https://www.mfmpod.com/

Learn more about TBE Architects: https://www.tbearchitects.com/
Learn more about The Intangible Brand: TheIntangibleBrand.com

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For decades, business development in engineering firms played second fiddle to the technical work. Amanda Payne built a career proving that wrong.

In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead sit down with Amanda Payne, Vice President and Business Development Director at Horner & Shifrin, to talk about what happens when a firm treats business development as a peer discipline to its engineering work, not a support function bolted on after the fact.

Amanda started in architecture school at Drury University, spent five years defending hand-drawn designs in studio crits, and eventually realized that training was better preparation for business development than for a desk job. She walks us through her rise from business development manager to the H&S board table, why she thinks 100% employee ownership is an underused trust signal with clients, and why too many BD directors get left out of the room where growth targets actually get set.

In this episode

• Why studio crits and all-nighters in architecture school turned out to be Amanda's real training for a career in business development
• Amanda's clear line between marketing and business development — and why blurring the two is her biggest pet peeve
• How Horner & Shifrin's 100% employee ownership becomes a trust signal in front of clients, not just an internal detail
• Why business development directors belong in strategic planning meetings, not just deal rooms
• The leadership lessons Amanda carried from chairing the SMPS St. Louis chapter into her seat on H&S's board
• How the AEC industry has changed for women in business development, and where it still has work to do

Key Takeaways

• Clients respond to an ESOP once it's explained to them — ownership signals that everyone at the firm has a stake in getting the work right, not just an HR detail.
• The instinct to present and defend your own work under pressure, built in architecture school, transfers directly to business development.
• Amanda pushed to have business development represented in strategic planning conversations. If BD isn't in the room, the growth plan and the pipeline stop lining up.
• Leading a volunteer board (SMPS St. Louis) taught Amanda how to delegate and trust a team, a lesson she carries into her seat on H&S's board today.
• Amanda's book pick, Leading Change by John Kotter, reinforced a leadership style that lets people stumble and learn rather than micromanaging every step.

Resource and References

• Leading Change by John P. Kotter: https://www.amazon.com/Leading-Change-New-Preface-Author/dp/1422186431
• Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus: https://lemonadamedia.com/show/wiser-than-me-with-julia-louis-dreyfus/

Learn more about Horner & Shifrin: https://www.hornershifrin.com/
Learn more about The Intangible Brand: TheIntangibleBrand.com

About Amanda Payne

Amanda Payne is Vice President and Business Development Director at Horner & Shifrin, where she leads business development strategy for the firm. She has over 15 years working in business development and marketing within the AEC industry, with a career built on reorganizing business development and marketing strategies, improving efficiency and win rates, managing large-scale project proposals, and cultivating the client relationships that turn into long-term partnerships.

Amanda's leadership extends beyond her role at Horner & Shifrin through her active involvement in professional and community organizations. She has chaired corporate United Way campaigns, volunteered in support of Mercy Hospital special events, and serves on the committee for St. Louis KIDstruction, a fundraising initiative benefiting St. Louis Children's Hospital. Amanda has also held leadership positions with Commercial Real Estate Women (CREW) St. Louis and the Society for Marketing Professional Services (SMPS) St. Louis Chapter, where she has served on the Board of Directors and as Chapter President.

 Amanda brings a unique viewpoint to conversations about client and employee experience, having spent her career on both relationship building with clients and helping shape internal culture and strategic initiatives.

 She lives in the St. Louis area with her husband, JR, and their three children.

#Horner&Shifrin #AECMarketing #aecindustry #EmployeeExperience #ClientExperience #SMPS #BrandStrategy

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For decades, the unwritten rule in structural engineering was to stay invisible. Brad Thurman built a career proving that wrong.

In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Julie Hammond sit down with Brad Thurman, Principal and Chief Marketing Officer at Wallace Design Collective, to talk about what happens when an engineer decides the firm's brand matters as much as its work.

Brad joined the firm in 1987 as a project engineer and spent a decade in pure technical work before moving into marketing — a path that made him one of AEC's most recognized "seller-doers." He walks us through the firm's boldest move yet: dropping "engineering" from its name entirely and rebranding as Wallace Design Collective for its 40th anniversary, and why he believes human relationships will matter more, not less, as AI takes over the busywork.

In this episode

• Why being a "seller-doer" and an engineer who can also sell, became Brad's career advantage
• The story behind dropping "engineering" from the firm's name to become Wallace Design Collective
• How "dedicated to the art of engineering" quietly became "dedicated to the art of possibility"
• Wallace's retention playbook: the Glee Club, a paid volunteer day, and twice-yearly "echo meetings"
• Why AI will make relationships more valuable in professional services, not less
• What technical teams and marketing teams get wrong about each other and how to fix it

Key Takeaways

• Clients want to know who they're actually hiring before they sign on.

• Being upfront about who you are, even knowing it won't be everyone's cup of tea, builds more trust than a polished, generic pitch.

• Some of Brad's closest professional relationships are with his direct competitors. SMPS taught him that peer networks, even across rival firms, are a real business asset, not just networking small talk.

• Marketing and technical work are a symbiotic relationship. Treat them as separate silos and you lose both talent and business.

• Brad's book pick, Team of Rivals, reflects a leadership belief he still lives by: build a team with people willing to tell you no.

Resource and References

• Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln by Doris Kearns Goodwin: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2199.Team_of_Rivals

Learn more about Wallace Design Collective: https://wallace.design
Learn more about The Intangible Brand: TheIntangibleBrand.com

About Brad Thurman

Brad Thurman is a principal and Chief Marketing Officer of Wallace Design Collective, a professional consulting firm offering structural and civil engineering, landscape architecture, surveying and assessments. He joined Wallace in 1987 and is a licensed Professional Engineer. Since 1998, Brad has helped lead Wallace’s marketing and business development efforts across four disciplines and eight offices. He is a past president of the Oklahoma Chapter of the Society for Marketing Professional Services (SMPS), served as the 2013-14 President on the SMPS National Board, and served as a trustee and as president of the SMPS Foundation Board of Trustees. Brad is a Certified Professional Services Marketer, was named a Fellow of SMPS in 2009, was elected to the National Academy of Construction in 2018, and was the 2025 recipient of SMPS's Weld Coxe Marketing Achievement Award.

#WallaceDesignCollective #AECMarketing #aecindustry #EmployeeExperience #ClientExperience #SMPS #BrandStrategy

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Corey Morris believes marketing isn't a vending machine you shake for quick returns. It's an investment you review and grow on purpose, every single quarter.

In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead sit down with Corey Morris, owner and CEO of Voltage and creator of the START planning process, to explore why so many marketing reports look great and still leave a business no better off. After more than twenty years in SEO and digital marketing, Corey discovered that the real driver of long-term growth isn't rankings or traffic, it's proof that marketing connects to revenue, and he's built his agency's entire framework around making sure that connection never gets lost.

The conversation moves from a very early career gut punch (a report full of great rankings for a client who hadn't landed a single new case) into the discipline Corey built in response: a five-step framework where the R stands for review, not reporting, because reviewing looks forward and reporting just looks back. Corey and the hosts also dig into how AI-driven search is quietly rewarding quality over quantity, and why chasing a spot on a competitor's self-serving "best of" listicle can backfire when the AI engine cites the list but drops your name from it entirely.

Whether you're leading a marketing team, running an agency, or just trying to prove your own department's worth before the next budget meeting, this episode offers practical insights into making marketing measurable without losing the strategy behind it.

In This Episode

• Why "good metrics" don't mean anything until they connect straight to revenue
• The difference between reporting and review, and why one is a leadership habit and the other a passive exercise
• Why AI-driven search is rewarding quality over quantity, and quietly penalizing self-serving "best of" listicles
• Why Voltage walked away from full-service work to go deeper on fewer service lines
• How to build a sustainable content engine off one piece of cornerstone content instead of starting from scratch every week
• Why marketing works better as an investment mindset than a vending machine
• Corey's path from web project manager to SEO specialist to agency owner at Voltage

Key Takeaways

• Marketing metrics only matter when they're tied to a review process that connects them to real revenue impact, not just a quarterly report.
• In an AI-saturated search landscape, genuine expertise and a clear point of view differentiate a brand more than sheer volume of content.
• Specializing in fewer service lines, done at a top-tier level, builds more client trust than trying to be a one-stop shop.
• One well-built piece of cornerstone content (a book, a keynote, original research) can be responsibly scaled into months of authentic thought leadership.
• Marketing works best when it's treated like a long-term investment reviewed on a schedule, not a vending machine pulled whenever leads are needed.

Resources & References

• The Digital Marketing Success Plan by Corey Morris
• Sell with Authority by Drew McLellan and Stephen Woessner
• Rethinking Work by Rishad Tobaccowala

About Corey Morris

Corey Morris is a best-selling author, speaker, and marketing leader. He is the creator of the START Planning Process and the founder of Digital Marketing Success Plan®. 

He is the owner and President/CEO of VOLTAGE, a specialist digital agency focused on digital strategy, search/AI marketing, and websites. With more than 20 years of experience, Corey has led award-winning initiatives for brands at local, national, and global levels, helping leadership teams align marketing execution with measurable business outcomes. 

 His work focuses on helping leadership teams bring clarity, accountability, and adaptability to marketing decisions in an era of rapid change. Corey is a monthly expert contributor to Search Engine Journal and Search Engine Land. He speaks throughout North America on SEO, AI, and marketing strategy and accountability and has presented at events including SMX and Digital Summit. His industry leadership and community impact earned him the KCDMA’s 2019 Marketer of the Year award.

Connect with Corey Morris!

• CoreyMorris.com
• Corey Morris on LinkedIn

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Jamie Shibley believes the strongest businesses aren't built on transactions, they're built on relationships that are cared for on purpose, every single time.

In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead sit down with Jamie Shibley, CEO of The Expressory and best-selling author of Relationship-First Strategic Engagement, to explore how genuine human connection can become a repeatable business strategy. After twenty years in IT and e-commerce, Jamie discovered that the real driver of long-term growth isn't logistics or marketing spend, it's emotional equity, and she's built her agency around helping companies build it deliberately.

The conversation moves from client gifting and referral nurturing into the more surprising territory of internal culture, making the case that how leaders acknowledge their own teams is the clearest predictor of how those teams will treat clients. Jamie and Jerry also dig into why AI and digital fatigue are pushing people back toward old-school, in-person connection rather than replacing it, and why the smallest, most human gestures; a handwritten note, a phone call, a "thank you" on the way out the door. are becoming the biggest competitive advantage available to any brand.

Whether you're leading a team, nurturing client relationships, or building a brand from the inside out, this episode offers practical insights into turning care into a system without losing what makes it feel genuine.

In This Episode

• Why "systematizing care" doesn't strip away authenticity. it scales it
• How to build a touch-point strategy for clients, prospects, and referral partners
• The connection between employee experience and client experience
• Why quiet, uneventful stretches in a relationship are often the biggest warning sign
• How AI and digital fatigue are driving a return to in-person, human connection
• What leaders often get wrong about brand, and why it's more about consistency than logos
• Jamie's path from twenty years in corporate e-commerce to founding The Expressory

Key Takeaways

• Genuine connection can be systematized without becoming impersonal — the system just has to be built on real research and intention.
• The best predictor of how a team treats clients is how its leaders treat the team.
• In a world saturated with AI-generated content, small, unmistakably human gestures are becoming a brand's sharpest differentiator.
• Relationships erode quietly, in the space between projects and regular, low-effort touch points are what keep them alive.
• The strongest brands are built on consistent private acts of care, not just public messaging.

Resources & References

• Relationship-First Strategic Engagement by Jamie Shibley
• Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara

About Jamie Shibley

Jamie Shibley is the CEO of The Expressory, a strategic engagement agency that believes the key to accelerating business growth and profitability in the post-COVID era lies in your ability to create emotional equity through nurturing meaningful relationships.
 A former IT and eCommerce leader with 20 years of corporate experience, Jamie went on to launch her own successful online brand where she discovered the true power of thoughtful, strategic gifting. Now, she's on a mission to help businesses reconnect on a human level and positively impact mental wellbeing by showing care and acknowledgement in meaningful ways.
 Jamie is the best-selling author of Relationship-First Strategic Engagement and is widely respected as a market leader. Her work has been featured on Entertainment Tonight and Forbes.com. 

Connect with Jamie Shibley

• The Expressory
• Jamie Shibley on LinkedIn

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Architecture is often thought of as the art of designing buildings, but Danny Forster sees it as something much bigger: the art of communicating an experience before it exists.

In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry Gennaria and Julie Hammond sit down with architect, Emmy Award-winning television host, and founder of Danny Forster & Architecture to explore how storytelling shapes the built environment. Danny explains why architects aren't really delivering buildings. They're helping people imagine a future, understand how they'll experience a space, and connect emotionally to a vision long before construction begins.

The conversation expands beyond architecture into branding, leadership, artificial intelligence, and communication. Danny shares why every profession is ultimately in the business of telling stories, how AI is changing the relationship between experts and clients, and why curiosity remains one of the most valuable traits for leaders navigating uncertainty.

Whether you're designing workplaces, building brands, or leading teams, this episode offers practical insights into making the intangible tangible.

In this episode

•  Why architecture is fundamentally an act of communication 
•  The role storytelling plays in helping clients experience the future 
•  How physical spaces shape culture and organizational identity 
•  Why the best design begins with understanding human experience 
•  How AI is transforming creative work and professional services 
•  The importance of curiosity, empathy, and clear communication in leadership 
•  Lessons from Danny's career spanning architecture, television, entrepreneurship, and education 

Key Takeaways

•  Great design is about creating an experience, not simply delivering a product. 
•  Storytelling helps people understand ideas they can't yet see. 
•  Architecture, branding, and communication all begin with empathy for the audience. 
•  AI is changing how experts communicate, but it won't replace the need for human judgment and creativity. 
•  The strongest brands are built by intentionally shaping the experiences people have every day. 

Resources & References

•  Danny Forster's TED Talk 

About Danny Forster

Danny Forster is an architect, Emmy Award-winning television host, TED speaker, entrepreneur, and founder of Danny Forster & Architecture. Throughout his career, he has combined architecture, storytelling, and technology to help organizations communicate the vision behind the spaces they create. His work spans hospitality, urban planning, residential design, modular construction, and media, with projects ranging from Marriott developments to Taylor Swift's penthouse renovation.

Connect with Danny

Website: https://www.dannyforster.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dannyforster/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dannyforster

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Jeff Sample believes employee experience starts with a simple question: do leaders truly understand what their people go through every day?

Jeff joins Jerry Gennaria and Carl Winstead to discuss how organizations can create stronger cultures by focusing less on slogans and more on understanding the realities of work. Drawing on his background in IT, software development, construction technology, and field operations, Jeff explains why empathy, trust, and curiosity are essential leadership skills.

The conversation explores how culture influences business performance, why technology initiatives often fail when they ignore employee needs, and how organizations can create environments where people feel supported, valued, and able to do their best work.

For leaders in AEC and professional services, the episode offers practical insights into building cultures that improve both employee and client experiences.

Key Topics Discussed

•  Defining employee experience beyond compensation and benefits 
•  Why understanding daily work matters for leaders 
•  The connection between employee experience and client experience 
•  Building trust during organizational change 
•  Technology adoption and employee buy-in 
•  Culture as a business enabler 
•  Creating psychological safety and accountability 
•  The role of curiosity in effective leadership 
•  Why relationships remain central in a digital world 
•  Retention, engagement, and employee value 

Resources Mentioned

• How Big Things Get Done by Bent Flyvbjerg and Dan Gardner 
•  The Curiosity Shop with Adam Grant & Brené Brown 
•  ConTechCrew Podcast

About Jeff Sample

Jeff Sample is Senior Industry Development Manager for Trades at Bluebeam, where he works with specialty contractors and construction professionals to improve workflows and operational performance. With more than 25 years of experience spanning IT, operations, software development, and construction technology, Jeff is known for helping organizations bridge the gap between technology, culture, and business outcomes. He is also co-host of the long-running ConTechCrew podcast.

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In this episode, Jerry and Carl talk with Jill Davis, Chief Strategy Officer at Cline, about what experience really means inside an AEC firm.

Jill’s work sits at the intersection of marketing, strategy, brand, client relationships, and internal culture. She explains why a firm’s brand is not just what it says externally. It is also how people inside the firm work together, communicate, make decisions, and show up for clients.

The conversation explores how Cline has thought about growth, leadership transition, rebranding, and the challenge of making something as abstract as “experience” feel tangible. Jill also shares why relationships and professional networks matter, especially when leaders face decisions they cannot make alone.

In this episode, we cover:

•  Jill’s path from marketing director to Chief Strategy Officer 
•  Why Cline’s brand needed to catch up with who the firm had become 
•  How internal culture affects external client experience 
•  Why architects and designers may need to think more intentionally about the business relationship side of experience 
•  How outside perspective can help a firm better understand itself 
•  Why communication is central to strategy 
•  Jill’s advice to build a strong professional network 

Resource mentioned:

•  SmartLess podcast 

Where to find Jill:

•  Jill Davis on LinkedIn 

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In this episode of The Intangible Brand, Jerry and Carl sit down with Caitlyn Cook, Marketing and Employee Owner Experience Lead at ESS Companies, to explore how employee ownership reshapes culture, accountability, and brand.

Caitlyn shares how her role bridges marketing and the employee experience, and how ESS has grown rapidly while maintaining a strong sense of ownership across its teams. We talk about what it takes to build connection across regions, why culture cannot be manufactured from the top down, and how employee ownership changes the way people show up to their work.

The conversation also looks at the relationship between employee experience and client experience, why alignment between marketing, HR, and leadership is critical, and how firms can create a culture that actually holds as they scale.

We cover:
 • What changes when employees are also owners
 • Why employee ownership shapes both culture and brand
 • How employee experience influences client experience
 • Why culture is built through connection, not messaging
 • The importance of alignment across marketing, HR, and leadership
 • How to maintain culture while scaling a growing organization

Recommended resource:
 • Radical Candor by Kim Scott

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