Eric Ries wrote The Lean Startup, the book that gave a generation of founders the MVP, the pivot, and the build-measure-learn cycle. He's also an early Bubble investor who believed in the democratization of building before most of Silicon Valley took it seriously.

In this episode, Emmanuel sits down with Eric to talk about his new book, Incorruptible, and the forces that quietly corrupt even the best companies. Eric introduces the concept of "financial gravity" — the structural pressure that bends successful companies away from their founding purpose — and explains why it starts pulling the moment you succeed, not after. He also makes a sharp case against vibe coding and AI-assisted building without understanding.

Topics covered:

• Why AI tools can make founders less capable, not more
• "Financial gravity": the invisible force that corrupts good companies from within
• The difference between "mission-driven" and "mission-controlled"
• Why governance is a creative design decision, not a legal formality
• How Incorruptible builds on The Lean Startup

Find this episode’s full show notes here:

• https://bubble.io/blog/the-new-build-10-eric-ries

Links:

• Incorruptible by Eric Ries: incorruptible.co
• Eric's podcast: ericriesshow.com
• Eric's newsletter: news.theleanstartup.com
• Eric on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/eries
• Eric on X: x.com/ericries
• AnswerAI: answer.ai

Start building: ⁠bubble.io⁠

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Chapters

[00:00:47] Introduction

[00:02:20] How AI and no-code changed the game Eric predicted 

[00:05:20] Why most people use AI wrong

[00:06:00] Dark flow: vibe coding is a slot machine 

[00:08:15] The artifact is not the progress

[00:09:30] What Incorruptible is about

[00:11:02] Financial gravity: the invisible force that corrupts good companies 

[00:13:35] The Bill Gates intern story

[00:16:23] The FedMart and Costco story: 200 years of companies losing their soul 

[00:22:45] When should founders think about governance? 

[00:24:58] The "most evil company" exercise: what your charter actually commits you to 

[00:27:01] The PBC filing: a two-page fix most founders don't know about 

[00:29:15] Mission-driven vs. mission-controlled: the Google "don't be evil" test 

[00:33:00] Does Incorruptible conflict with The Lean Startup? 

[00:35:48] Eric's blueprint: the path of ethos and the path of integrity 

[00:40:10] Is Eric optimistic?