If I am being totally honest, which is always what I strive for, I initially walked away from this conversation with Jeff frustrated. I was frustrated that I might not have handled it as best as I could have, I was frustrated that it was too combative, and I was frustrated that it didn't lead to the type of productive learning conversation I hope for. But as often happens, when I listened back to the discussion I actually felt a lot better about it. I felt like this modeled what it looks like to have an authentic conversation, where two people don't see the world exactly the same way and that is OK. It was not mean spirited or divisive, but it also wasn't overly friendly or agreeable. Jeff and I debated a lot, we disagreed at times, we agreed at times, we cut each other off at times, we got frustrated at times. But through all of it, we listened to each other. We heard each other and we tried to work through the complexity and nuance of the major issues we face today to get to a better outcome. And for that I am really grateful for Jeff and this episode.

As way of a brief background, Jeff is the host of The Patriot Review and The Patriot Perspective podcasts and a proud midwestern dad, Christian, and Constitutional Conservative American. As you will hear in the conversation, this background and value system leads Jeff to some strong views about what issues we face today as a country and the steps we might need to take to address them. You might not like all of Jeff's views, I didn't necessarily like all of them (although some I did), but again the point is to actually listen to each other and try to learn, and get to better outcomes. To that end you will hear us talk about education, racism, critical race theory, politics, freedom, and civil liberties, among many other things. 

Thank you again to Jeff for being on, for being so open and honest, and for being willing to engage in a discussion with someone he doesn't totally agree with.