This is our third episode. We will discuss the one thing you need to create a distillery and the craft cocktail recipe - Italian Manhattan. This podcast episode features Whiskey Maker - Doug Hall and Whiskey Drinker - Tripp Babbitt.

Show Notes

[00:00:28] The One Thing You Need to Create A Distillery

[00:03:21] Managing the Wood Drives Quality

[00:04:46] Importance of the Master Whisk(e)y Maker

[00:07:47] Hiring for a Distillery

[00:08:05] The Need to Embrace Systems

[00:10:49] Tricks to Different Spirits

[00:12:29] Problems with Gin

[00:14:05] Taste Test Difference of Aged Spirits

[00:15:11] Craft Cocktail Recipe - The Italian Manhattan

[00:17:41] Next Month Step-By-Step to Make Whisk(e)y Meaningfully Unique

 

 

Transcript

Tripp: [00:00:08] This is the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy podcasts where we're going to take you behind the scenes on what it takes to build a whiskey distillery business Eureka! Ranch team led by Doug Hall are creating a craft Whiskey Company like has never been done before.

 

Tripp: [00:00:28] Doug you teased this the last episode about revealing the one thing you need to have to create a distillery for this week's episode. I've been waiting. Tell me

 

Doug: [00:00:42] So if you if you're going to create a distillery. The one thing you have to have which I am learning because I don't have it is you have to have massive patients massive patients. It is absolutely mind numbing you know to sell distilled spirits even beer is easier wine is easier but to sell distilled spirits whether it's in the UK Canada or in the U.S. there is a massive flow of paperwork that you have to deal with and rules and regulations. Now it's an incredibly it can be an incredibly good business. It can be incredibly profitable business but recognize you are going into one of the most difficult. It's probably one of the only industries in the world that has federal regulations state and provincial regulations and sometimes even city regulations that can vary with regards to hours you can sell in etc.. I mean it is it is ridiculous. Usually you've got to deal with you know a federal set of rules.

 

Doug: [00:01:51] It's rare that you have federal regional and local that you'll have to deal with and the rules in one province versus the next or one state versus next can be totally different.

 

Doug: [00:02:04] And so you've got to have patience and you've got to work your way through these rules. And so there is software you can get for this for a distillery to do it. There are systems you have to put in place and so very early on. I mean we just talked about systems and bureaucracy. You've got to build your systems so to enable people in fact when you know we're setting up there we're gonna coach people who want to start the distillery or they want to convert from brewery or distillery or whatever. And one of the big things we're putting together is training courses and systems to help them get there the easy way because every mistake you can imagine we're pretty much been making it with brain brew distilling as we've been going on this stuff. Things that you take for granted like we were getting wood and then come to find out you know you know you'd call somebody to buy a barrel or something and they'd sell it you if they thought was great. Then come to find out you find out that oh no there's very big differences you can get your oak from the Ohio Valley which right near the Ohio River you can get it nor then you can get it Southern you can get it kiln dried you can get it air dried you know you got all of these and then how long was it air dried and all of these traits or it had something else in it.

 

Doug: [00:03:21] How long was that when you did it. All of those traits have a huge impact on your taste and so we had to build. For example we make product and all of a sudden the product was horrible for a week. We couldn't make product it was good and we weren't thinking anything of it. And then when we chase down in what we figured out was we had some wood that had a totally different character than what we thought it was for various reasons. And so we have to have a whole system our wood quality system to manage the wood that's coming into the distillery is probably the most important thing for driving our quality is making sure that you've got that right wood because 70 percent of the flavor comes from the wood and and this stuff becomes mind numbing you know you want to do the flashy stuff the brands you want to do the tasting events you want to do the tours and you want to have the fun Well it's fundamental discipline on legal rules and production systems that you really have to have and you know it's interesting as I'm listening to you talk and you're talking about the word I think of how tough it must be to get a consistent product.

 

Tripp: [00:04:31] You know this is the thing Shewhart had trouble with right at the Bell Telephone labs which was you know getting consistent phones out the door but with wood I would think the variation would be so great. How do you get a consistent taste from that.

 

Doug: [00:04:46] Well and it's something that I mean some of the big distillers have really started to get into this because that is the secret See that's the big difference. People think beer and distilling think it's the same with beer the brewer is really important because you brew the product and you drink it with whiskey the distilling is really not that important. I mean it's mostly computer to run it anyways and but ya just it at such a high alcohol pretty much is corn it's wheat it's right it's barley. And as long as you don't do it badly there isn't a whole lot of difference. There's not a lot of upside in being a better distiller. I mean you can be a bad distiller that's no good. You can have a dirty product but if you make a decent product and if you're using some of the computer controlled stuff it's fine. It's just not a big deal to make whiskey to make the right spirit. The magic at a distillery is not the distiller the magic is what's called the whiskey maker OK. Our top person in the distillery is the Wiz chief whiskey maker the master whiskey maker Joe Girgash

 

Doug: [00:05:49] I mean he's the most important guy because he's the guy that really makes the whiskey now. In our case we do different things but at a at a classic distillery what they would do is there is such variance in this would end in how it changes pending upon where it's in the warehouse is it near a window is it at the top of the Rec is it at the bottom of the rack. All of that product is different. So what they do is they make a bunch of this product and then somebody sits in a room and takes little samples and puts them together and crafts the whiskey.

 

Doug: [00:06:22] You know that's how it's created. That's how the stuff's stuff's created. And they mix it to a certain taste and that's why when the bourbon guys did single barrel and pick barrels one of the great challenges for them for capacity was to have stuff that was in the neighborhood of the same taste because it can have a pretty high variance. I mean there basically is no quality process. If qual is defined as hitting a certain standard in the whiskey business because it's random with the wood it's random with where the barrel is what are the seasons like. It's just a dynamic thing. What we've done with brain brew because we cut the wood into pieces and we inspect it and we're very high quality and we control the heating cooling cycles is we've dramatically reduced the variance in the process and in fact just last night I was tasting a new version we have three as I talked about paired comparison tests.

 

Doug: [00:07:15] We just talked about that. I've got three paired comparison tests running tonight on some things for upgrades to two of our products we're looking to see if can we improve the products and see if we've made them better or not. And one of the upgrades one of its value is is it's a much more there's much less variance in this wood much less variance. And so you know if the product even if the product scored the same I would switch to the new one because I know it's going to dramatically reduce our variance and improve the quality of what we can deliver for people.

 

Doug: [00:07:47] So it's a different mindset. It's a different mindset. And so interestingly what I found in hiring people is you know you have a distillery it's a cool thing everybody wants to do it you know all the millennials come up you know all the guys got a beer too. They all show up. I love them.

 

Doug: [00:08:05] I love them but you know I'm the old fart in the group. But you know they all want to do it because they think it's a neat thing to go to. What I have found is hiring people from who've worked kitchens and I'm not talking celebrity chefs I'm talking about people they may run the kitchen or they run the line. You do not survive in the restaurant business. If you do not embrace systems you just can't do it. You can't do it. You're never going to get stuff out. And so there has to be high discipline where things go. I mean the kitchen is the original lean five s everything you know everything in its place systems work systems hand movements. You have to be incredibly efficient because the restaurant sits with nobody in it. And then all of a sudden he shows up at nighttime and it's like game time and you have to run as fast as you possibly can to get the stuff out there and a high quality you've got to have discipline systems with your pre prep that you've done in that. And so what I bring in kitchen guys and I say OK I'm going to have you talk about systems. They come in and we make they I'll have to go through the innovation and training classes they've got to go all the way up to the blackboard classes because I won't. You don't work for me if you don't do that. That's it. Because systems are not to go to I don't care how great you are. Ninety four percent of it's the system. OK now you said well my unimportant No you're critical because you're going to help us make the systems better.

 

Doug: [00:09:22] You're a system architect. And so we're gonna get systems and work systems down and we're gonna document them and have them and fortunately innovations during that have some calls trailblazer software that makes this painless to do it. And and to document the things and it's those systems the restaurant people don't even blink they go Yeah I get it. What's the big deal. That's how we do it where I bring other people and you know marketing people and they go I know I like to feel it and I'm like I'm not just sitting feeling it dude I'm interested and reproduce stably 52 weeks a year delivering high quality product and making it happen. And one of the biggest things trip that we're gonna do as we expand innovation at the brain brew offering and we license other distilleries to offer custom whiskey so they can do personal whiskey experiences is we're gonna bring them that systems mindset and part of my hope is that not only do we you know sell some custom whiskeys make them some money but we also help make their lives better. And so you know it. And this where we'll put in the piece on it it you know if you're interested in doing this we're gonna introduce it in February at the craft spirits show an inn in Minneapolis. But it's going to be possible for you to take your distillery up a notch to create your own distillery for you know less than 10 cents on the dollar versus what it would normally cost and to get into the whiskey business in a much smarter and more effective way.

 

Tripp: [00:10:49] Very cool. That's awesome. I want one thing that comes up and this is going to be I mean you said a whole bunch of really good things there but it just kind of set in my mind Get me off on this variation you know with the wood and everything. So you kind of talked about gin and vodka and those types of things being different. What are what are some of the known challenges associated with those things too. I mean not a lot of detail. Just curious.

 

Doug: [00:11:18] Yeah it's gin. Okay. So. So vodka you basically distill it to a higher level and so that there's no taste to it. And so it's a relatively straightforward thing.

 

Doug: [00:11:30] There are some things with regards to the water addition to managing P.H. and stuff like that and you can run it through the still multiple times. And there's a lot more voodoo and vodka than there is anything else it's pretty much vodkas vodka is vodka. You can have dirty vodka because it has a lot of heavy alcohols or you can have a clean vodka because it's more refined. And so it's a it's it's pretty straight chemistry experiment of running the still gin is basically flavored vodka. It's vodka flavored with juniper predominantly Juniper. That's the definition of gin pretty much on the world. Now people are really pushing that pretty hard right now because a classic London dry gin would would have a lot of juniper and be very juniper forward and we're now making these things that are botanical vodkas. Well I call them not much of a gin in there.

 

Doug: [00:12:29] The big problem with gin is generally gin. The combination of some citrus and some spice classically orange because it's more stable but it could be other could be lime and different things and you can do it different ways you can do it with natural ones you can do with chemicals most are with chemicals but that doesn't matter chemical flavorings it is what it is. The problem with those is once you open the bottle a bottle of gin will last you about six months you might make it nine if it's cold. I'm definitely not going to go over a year all of the fruit will drop out. It's just it's just going to it's just going to drop out of there it's going to get oxidized now. I mean if you overdose with chemicals you can make it stay if it's staying then I'm scared about something else. But you know now this is my opinion OK. And I know people scream about it. The thing is is that people have old bottles of gin and they go but my genes fight and and then I ask OK how do you how do you do that. You make it in a fine dry martini. Oh no I don't. I just drink it with tonic. I said OK. So let me make sure I get this right. You put an ounce and a half of gin in that has a spice note to it. The fruit's gone but then you throw in some some tonic which has got its basically it's a sweet soft drink sweet sparkling water is what tonic is and you've thrown it all that sugar and the tonic spices and you don't it doesn't seem too bad.

 

Doug: [00:14:05] Well no wonder no wonder you don't know. I'll challenge you to this. Go buy a fresh bottle of whatever it is that you've got. Take that old bottle and taste the two side by side. You know if you need to you know add a third water to it.

 

Doug: [00:14:19] So take AP The percent alcohol down and you'll find it's just gone it's just gone and it's for that reason that I'm not doing a gin. We're going to do a vodka because my high school sweetheart and wife Lopes likes vodka. My French martinis that use it. So we'll make a vodka but I'm not going to do a gin. We can make one but if we do we're just going to offer it distillery fresh and it's gonna be you know basically 30 days and after 30 days we dump it is what we're gonna do. Because when you get the citrus and the fruit right it's a magical tasting it creates a magical martini. And so so that's the issue there is managing that problem. Spice crumbs. No problem. The spice stays fine. It's the fruit notes that are the problem. OK.

 

Tripp: [00:15:11] Thank you for that. I just I'm just curious as to how I mean there's a whole series of questions I have associated with that but what. Let's let's focus and move on. So your craft cocktail recipe that you put in to the newsletter this week was the Italian Manhattan. Tell us about the Italian Manhattan.

 

Doug: [00:15:35] Well it's so classic Manhattan is sweet vermouth and bourbon or rye.

 

Doug: [00:15:43] Some mix em one to one. We like to do and have a two to one two parts bourbon one part rye sometimes and then with a little bit of bitters and maybe in a wipe of orange on the rim. Pretty much a classic Manhattan. It's a pretty heavy drink. And so for this one here. Took it to a different place to make it a clean and complex state with a 2 to 1 ratio. So it's two ounces of our noble oak bourbon and one ounce of limoncello from Italy which is a Italian lemon liqueur.

 

Doug: [00:16:22] And it really makes it very fresh and clean still has the complexity of a Manhattan.

 

Doug: [00:16:30] And my wife Debbie actually makes limoncello a lot of lemons have to give up their skins it's all come from the skins coming out.

 

Doug: [00:16:39] And she makes it every holiday season and and so this is kind of just a neat twist and it gives us a lightness and a brightness to it which just I think makes it a lot of fun. And in fact as I'm as I'm talking about it here I'm thinking I got to have one of those tonight I think I think that's good because it really is it is pretty good so just a rocks glass Add some ice two ounces of bourbon are noble OK.

 

Doug: [00:17:05] Look at NobleOak.com. You can see it's in about half the country right now. It's perfect for this. An ounce of limoncello you know get a relatively decent one and start a bar 13 times and you get yourself a wonderful cocktail.

 

Tripp: [00:17:24] Very good. So can you teach this again as far as the next episode as far as what we might expect in either a cocktail recipe or what we might talk about in Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy.

 

Doug: [00:17:41] Well I'm next month. I'm gonna get into really nitty gritty. Ok. So we've talked about meaningful uniqueness. I'm going to literally take you step by step how to do it yourself. So we're going to show you step by step.

 

Doug: [00:17:56] I'm going to I'm going to give you exactly how you can do it yourself so that you can check and make sure that whatever it is whether you're doing a gin or you're doing a vodka or you're doing cocktails or you're doing your whiskey. How can you find out if you're a product. So we've talked about meaningfully unique this lot. I've kind of thrown my quickly on how to do it. I'm going to take it step by step. How you do it. Because the most important thing is meaningful unique.

 

Doug: [00:18:24] So what I'm finding as I travel around the world and talk to craft distillers and taste their products is the challenge a lot of them have is their product is pretty much the same as everybody else's. You see the beer guys the beer guys won the craft beer market happened because the big brewers had reduced the bitterness units to make these very light drinks that you could pound down a lot and the beer folks came in with bigger taste bigger flavor really unique taste versus the mass market stuff and so it was just it was more meaningfully unique and it worked. They weren't. They got the business. The problem craft spirits have is most of their products are about the same as the others.

 

Doug: [00:19:10] And the big distillers which are mostly owned by big corporations. I mean most of the Bourbons that sound very folksy are really owned by big corporations a Japanese owned a whole bunch of them and Europeans own a whole bunch of them because it's been hot. These folks have gotten they've learned from the beer guys.

 

Doug: [00:19:31] And so they're pushing the edges. They're doing the bigger flavors they're doing the bigger tastes. And so that means as craft people we have to break the rules even more. We've got to stretch the envelope and do things that are even more unique which is why with brain brew we're doing like five wood rye. I mean that's like nuts. And we're taking and using 200 year old wood and and so to add that incredible richness and depth really pushing the edges. Well that's exactly what they're going to do. And and when we go through this I'm going to show you how to measure that exact thing.

 

Tripp: [00:20:04] Ok. And so you're basically seeing a whole trend going on here and you don't believe then that the the big distilleries are going to be able to react to this is that because you've mentioned before about the distilleries basically being more craft oriented that we'll see something like we did pre prohibition. What you are predicting is that this void for lack of a better term is going to be filled by these by different craft distilleries.

 

Doug: [00:20:38] Does that kind of. Now it's two steps. OK. So step one is I think the local distillery pub beer tap houses if they're allowed to. If that state allows them to serve cocktails and drinks that local place just because it's local is going to have a business still exists whether or not they become a good sized business and they get some decent volume is going to depend upon how meaningfully unique their product is. It's not enough to just taste good. You have to taste wicked good. I mean it has to be something you can't get anywhere else. And that's going to be the determinant. There's a projection by the craft distillers that shows what size will craft spirits get to. And it shows huge variance on the end under different scenarios. And I think the difference is going to be product and I fully intend the brain Brew Crew and I fully intend to put in the hands of the craft folks the ability to do incredibly cool new tastes and do just like the beer guys did and just stretch the envelope.

 

Tripp: [00:21:41] Ok. Very cool. I'm looking forward to the rest of that. Now I'm anxious to get to the next episode.

 

Doug: [00:21:49] Well thank you much. Hey we'll see you next week.

 

Tripp: [00:21:56] Have you ever thought about owning your own craft whiskey business. Well subscribe to the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy because in early 2019. We'll be offering opportunities to start your own business. Whether you are an aspiring entrepreneur curious about innovation. Or just like a good story. The Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy podcast will take you behind the scenes to learn the good bad. And the ugly. About what it takes to create whiskey. And the craft space. Which is growing at a crazy rate. Lessons learned can be applied. Broadly.