 “You want to look for the good and focus on the good because whatever you focus on expands — It’s universal law.”  — Jill Sockwell, Co-Author of The Optimist's Guide to Divorce: How to Get Through Your Breakup and Create a New Life You Love   We interview Jill Sockwell of The Optimist's Guide to Divorce: How to Get Through Your Breakup and Create a New Life You Love, co-authored with Suzanne Riss. This is a great new book!   About the book: "Wise, comforting, and uplifting, The Optimist’s Guide to Divorce captures the experience of sisterhood through the voices of its authors and their community of women in the Maplewood Divorce Club—women who understand what you’re going through, who know the practical issues as well as the emotional ones, and who can help you keep a sense of hope and a sense of humor.”   You will enjoy this book and this interview. Check out the website and get the book below!   Website: http://www.optimistsguidetodivorce.com/   Get the Book on Amazon HERE!    Thank you for listening to the Divorce and Your Money Show. Visit us at www.divorceandyourmoney.com for a full transcript of this episode. You will also find 1-on-1 coaching and be sure to check out the NEW courses Steps to Take Before Divorce and How to Get a Divorce without Losing Everything.     If you enjoyed the show, please take a moment to  leave a review on iTunes, as it will help other people discover this free advice.

0092: The Optimist's Guide to Divorce - Interview with Jill Sockwell, Author

If you are currently going through a divorce or soon will be, Divorce and Your Money is the perfect podcast for you. The author, Shawn C. H. Leamon (MBA), is a professional and well-respected financial advisor and Certified Divorce Financial Analyst. His podcast provides real-world practical advice, including tips and checklists to help women and men protect their financial interests and future.

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0232: How Does Spousal Support Work? - Part 2 Visit us at divorceandyourmoney.com for the #1 divorce resources in the USA and get personalized help.   In this episode, we are continuing the series on spousal support/alimony, whatever name you want to call it. And the importance of this episode is to cover the different types of spousal support or alimony available. I'm going to go through five different types, temporary support, permanent support, rehabilitative support, lump sum, and partial lump-sum support. So, let's jump in. Let's start with temporary support. Temporary support, generally speaking, is - before or during the divorce process - you have a temporary support amount you may be paying or receiving. It's the support you agree upon before the divorce is over. Pretty clear. The important thing to know about temporary agreements, and I say this almost every day on calls or when people are negotiating, whether you're the person about to pay or receive temporary spousal support, be very careful about what you decide. The numbers that you agree upon for temporary support often become the support numbers you use after divorce. And so, if you agree to a $1,000 a month, oftentimes the agreement after the divorce will be $1,000 a month. There is a lot less flexibility. Generally speaking, once you agree upon a temporary support number that often becomes the final support amount that you use after the divorce process. So, something to be very careful about there. Permanent support. Permanent support is what it sounds like. Permanent support is support for life. It's generally speaking, not as common as it used to be. If you were in a long-term marriage and you didn't work and you're near retirement age, there may be a permanent support amount, but if you are relatively young, then there usually isn't permanent support. It's not something that's automatic or even expected the way it once used to be. That said, it still exists, and that's something that you should be aware of. Every state, of course, as always has its own circumstances in revolving permanent support. Now, there's something between temporary and permanent support that wasn't on my list that I want to jump in, is there's just what your final support amount is. So, it's just what you negotiate. It doesn't necessarily have a fancy name other than your alimony number. So, if your alimony is $1,000 a month for eight years, either paying or receiving, that's just the amount. That's not temporary, that's not permanent, that's just your amount. So, that is the alimony payment. I just want to make that distinction in there very quickly. There's something called rehabilitative support. And it's not always known by that name, but I'm going to go through what it means because its meaning is very relevant to many of the discussions that I have, and that you may be thinking about when it comes to thinking about support and what makes sense. So, rehabilitative support is a very simple concept and that is either you or your spouse may need some additional training to get back on their feet and start earning a reasonable living after the divorce process. If they've been out of the workforce for a period of time, or if you've been out of the workforce for a period of time, it might take one, two, five years to get back on your feet or for your spouse to get back on their feet. And so, in a rehabilitative support model, what often happens is you pay a higher amount of spousal support or receive a higher amount of spousal support for the first few years while that spouse gets their training. So, if they're going to become a paralegal, go back to college, get an advanced degree, some sort of free training, whatever the case may be. Well, you might say, "Well, I'm going to agree to a higher level of support for the first three years that person gets to get back on their feet." And then it's presumed that after those three years, they'll have their certification, they can earn a good living for themselves. And then the support amount declines or goes away or whatever it is that you negotiate. That's what's called rehabilitative support. And it's just there to allow someone to retrain and then start earning funds on their own. So, that's something to think about when it comes to support models. The last two are lump sum and partial lump-sum support. You'll understand lump sum very clearly. A lump sum is paying all the support in one payment, instead of paying it over time or receiving all of your support in one payment, instead of receiving it over time. It's a topic I've discussed on the podcast before. If you haven't gotten the archives with all the podcast episodes, I encourage you to do that. There are some extensive details on how lump sum support can work and ways to negotiate it in that archive of all of the 200 plus podcast episodes, not all of which are public here. But what's important about the lump sum support is let's just say, and I like to use simple numbers, you're going to be paying $1,000 a month for five years, which means you are going to be paying 12,000 a year or 60,000 over five years. A $1,000 a month is what it is. Well, the option is instead of paying 60,000 over five years, what if you just wrote a check for $60,000 and you're done paying support? There is no future support. You're separated from your spouse. You don't have to deal with at least that part of your relationship ever again. Now, conversely, maybe you're on the receiving end. So, you're supposed to get $1,000 a month for five years, so you're supposed to receive $60,000 over five years. Well, maybe you might say, and I'm going to add a wrinkle into this example, you might say, "Well, I want all the money upfront because I don't trust my spouse or I don't want to have to deal with waiting for that monthly $1,000 every month, and I want my money now." So, you might say, "Well, just write me a check for $60,000." But maybe, I don't want to say better yet, but maybe for the sake of negotiation, you're willing to take $55,000 upfront or $50,000 upfront instead of $60,000 over five years. Something that you may want to think about. And so, that would be a lump sum. And so, you get all your money upfront. You might not get the full value, but you get all the money today instead of, or the day your settlement is over or you come to a settlement, rather. You get all the money in one fell swoop, rather than waiting every month for that direct deposit or check to come in the mail. Now, the partial lump sum is also very simple and that is, it's not always financially feasible for people to pay all their support or alimony in a lump sum amount. It just isn't. And sometimes circumstances just won't allow that to happen. And so, what you can do in that situation is you can have what is a partial lump sum. So, let's just say maybe you pay or receive three years upfront and then you get the rest over time, or you pay three years upfront or two years upfront and pay the rest over time. The plus side is you get a chunk of change in the short term if you're on the receiving end. The downside is your monthly payments are going to be lower going forward, but that's not really a downside mathematically. It's just a different way to negotiate the agreement. So, that's something to think about. And then sometimes that works too, where you give someone some and if you're the one paying it, you give someone, your ex-spouse, some starter money, and then they get to do that. And then, in the long run, your payments to them on a monthly basis are much lower. So, something to think about. The reason that a partial lump-sum comes into play is that it's just another tool to have in your toolbox is it may not always be either-or. Sometimes you just can't write a check for a large support amount. It just might not be feasible. So, that's why you might do a partial lump sum. So, something to think about there. So, there are, as I said, different times, types, excuse me, of spousal support to consider. There is temporary support, permanent support. I interjected just what we call support, which is your final agreement, rehabilitative support, or money and more money in the short run for retraining, a lump sum support, and then, of course, a partial lump sum. A lot of different options to think about when you are negotiating a potential spousal support agreement and different options really can apply really well during, rather I should say, different circumstances. And so you should think about what options may make the most sense for you and your circumstance because it's not always set in stone. There's a lot of ability for some creativity when negotiating support agreements and that creativity can help you actually get this divorce done, rather than extending the process out even further, because you're having a hard time coming to the right support agreements and what is financially feasible and acceptable for all parties involved.  

0232: How Does Spousal Support Work? - Part 2

Visit us at divorceandyourmoney.com for the #1 divorce resources in the USA and get personalized help.   All right. Today, I want to talk about a very basic and essential topic that is worth your understanding and understanding the nuances of it, and that is spousal support. And when I talk about spousal support, I also mean alimony in there as well. Spousal support or alimony is the same term used interchangeably. Sometimes I'll refer to it as spousal support, sometimes I might say alimony, but know that they are the exact same thing. There's a lot of details that you should know about alimony or spousal support, and I want to make sure you understand the basics of it. Let's start with just a simple definition. What it is, is a court-ordered provision of money for one spouse after divorce, or sometimes separation as well. Spousal support is a very important concept. You may be on the paying end of support, you may be on the receiving end. But oftentimes, people ask, "Well, why do I have to pay support?" or, "Shouldn't I be receiving spousal support?" And you should kind of understand why it exists. Very simply, one spouse pays the other money, usually on a semi-regular basis. And the reason it exists is that most of the time, both spouses don't have equal resources. Usually, one spouse earns more than the other, and to make up for that difference, they have spousal support. Particularly, in a longer marriage where if you've been married for a long time, and if you're getting divorced and one spouse didn't work or barely worked part-time, that income difference can be substantial. Sometimes, in the hundreds of thousands of dollars a year a difference and so spousal support is there to make sure that the lower-earning spouse does not end up without any form of income after the divorce process is over. Why it came into play, if you look up the history of spousal support, why it even exists, is actually, once upon a time, you could get divorced but oftentimes, if we are assuming traditional gender roles, the wife would be left destitute. The husband who has had some sort of profession many, many decades ago before divorce laws evolved would work the job, the wife would stay at home if you think of the traditional family as it used to be. Before spousal support, if a wife were to get divorced, the wife would have no money and they would have to start over with basically nothing. They would be destitute. And so, spousal support was enacted by just about every state to minimize that from happening and keep that from happening in this situation of divorce, like other evolutions in divorce include no-fault divorce laws, which I've talked about on the podcast. It used to be the case where you had to prove a reason that you were getting divorced. Now you can get divorced for any reason at all in any state. Look, there are pros and cons and what not to everything, but just want to give a little bit of context there.   Now, the big question that I get asked a lot is, "How much alimony am I going to get?" And the answer to that is it depends. There are numerous factors that are considered. Now, every state has its own nuances to how spousal support is determined. Some of them, it's a little bit more formulaic. More often, it is almost just whatever you and your spouse agree to or whatever a court decides is the amount of support that's going to be paid, and there are very few guidelines. Particularly, for my California listeners... I work with a lot of people in California, a lot of people in New York... Now, I work with people everywhere but in those two states in particular people, the question is, "How much support am I going to pay?" And the answer is, well, we're going to have to figure it out and negotiate it because it's not a hard and fast rule in terms of spousal support.  So there are a lot of nuances to the spousal support question and what financial status means, and trying to give a bunch of examples is a little bit tricky because everyone's situation is different depending on state and income level and savings and earnings, et cetera. So, I won't try and dive into 50 different examples of ways spousal support might be calculated just based on the financial status question, but something to think about. The next issue is living conditions and lifestyle. Some people who make $500,000 a year spend $600,000 a year, which means they have a lot of debt. I also know families who make $500,000 a year who spend $80,000 a year, and they save a substantial amount of money every year. The point is, is that lifestyles can vary dramatically between families. And if you are in a situation where you or your spouse doesn't spend very much money, there may be the case for lower support amounts going forward. Now, it doesn't apply in every state and every situation, but something to think about. Earning potential, is a very important topic in terms of how the spousal support conversation can go and one that we do a lot of coaching calls around, and that is, the spouse that's receiving support, what is their educational level? Are they able to earn funds on their own? Sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes the answer is no, or sometimes the answer is, well, after a few years, they may be able to. If you are a younger couple, let's just say, in your 40s is a good example, or younger, and you're getting divorced, it's not very realistic almost anywhere in the country to believe that the spouse who's receiving spousal support is supposed to never work again. And so, the question becomes, what is that person's earning potential? Now, if you've never graduated college or don't have any formal education, maybe the answer is, "Well, we're going to assume you can earn a minimum wage job and that's your earning potential." But conversely, if you have a master's degree but have only been out of the workforce for three years, and you can probably get a job with a little bit of extra training or something like that, a six-figure job, then that could be factored into the spousal support calculations. So, there's a lot of question in terms of earning potential that needs to be determined by the spouse. I've also talked in the past on the podcast about vocational experts who will, if there's not an agreement about one spouse's earning potential, can come up with an agreement about earning potential and do an analysis of the spouse's possibilities in the job market. That is something that could factor into the spousal support discussion.   Age. Age is very simple. The older you are, usually the more likely that one spouse will be receiving support and also the more likely it is that that support may be longer. And, that the other spouse isn't expected to go find a high-paying job over time. Because if you're 61 and you're getting divorced and you're expecting to receive support, well, it's most likely the case that you will be receiving support for an extended spousal support for an extended period of time, and they're not expecting you to go rejoin the workforce and get a job, particularly if you've been married for a while, which also brings me to the last point, of the length of the marriage. If you've been married for a long time, 10 years, 20 years, 25 years, 30 years or longer, the longer you have been married, the more likely you're going to receive some form of support and for a longer period of time. Now, it's not always a super clean and easy thing to figure out in terms of timing and how long and how much, but there is a correlation between the length of the marriage and the amount of support you receive. Sometimes I talk to people who've been married for three years or five years, and they want 10 years of support. That is unlikely. You will usually get paid for... Now, every state differs, some states have rules, and you should look up your state's laws, where if you've been married for over 20 years, it's automatically assumed that you're going to get support for the rest of your life. In other states, it's a fraction of the time. But one of the things to think about is how long you've been married and how much support you'll receive. For planning purposes, I use an estimate. If the state doesn't have a law, I usually estimate around a third to a half of the time you've been married for support for planning purposes, both for the payer and for the person receiving. So if you've been married for 10 years, I assume usually somewhere between three and five years of spousal support. Now, every situation is completely different. But if I were doing just a rough guess, a rough calculation, someone were to come to me and say, "Here's the support agreement that's on the table. The state doesn't really have any real guidelines," if it's somewhere in that third to a half of the amount of time you've been married, assuming the couples are younger so meaning, excuse me, early 50s at the latest, but usually 40s or 30s, that would strike me as a reasonable amount of time. But as I said, every situation is different. In the next episodes, I want to discuss some new other nuances of spousal support such as the different types of support, and what special circumstances may exist where spousal support might be longer or unchangeable, and some of the pros and cons of those different options.

0231: How Does Spousal Support Work? - Part 1

Visit us at divorceandyourmoney.com for the #1 divorce resources in the USA and get personalized help.   Almost half the people I talk to on a given day or week have yet to file for divorce. And they are in the planning phases and are trying to figure out their options. Now, I'm never an advocate for divorce, but there's one situation in which I encourage people to file sooner over later. And the reason is because, when you file for divorce, you generally have additional protections when it comes to financial decisions that are made. And specifically, most divorce filings include something that's called a temporary restraining order or automatic temporary restraining order, depending upon your state. And what that means is that neither spouse is allowed to make big financial decisions once the divorce is filed.   And the reason that's important is oftentimes I hear people saying, "Well, my spouse is thinking about doing this. Should I go along with it? Or how can I stop this from happening? Or how do I protect myself if my spouse does that?" And oftentimes the only answer is, if this is something you're really worried about, you need to file for divorce now to protect yourself and to prevent your spouse from making this particular financial decision that could be very harmful to your future particularly when divorce is on the horizon. And this temporary restraining order or automatic temporary restraining order, as I said, prevents your spouse and you as well, but your spouse from making big financial moves.   And what are those? Those could be something like selling property, transferring property, borrowing, like taking on a big debt, changing your insurance policies, withdrawing, that's a word I have a lot of trouble with, withdrawing large sums of money from bank accounts, destroying or hiding assets, paying down big debts, taking on big debts, making a big purchase, things like that. And the restraining order, which you get when you file, is there to protect you and to keep your spouse from doing those things. Now, it gets a little complicated because there are two things that are really important notes to think about. The first is that you can still do stuff that's in the normal course of business.   Had a really challenging case lately where the spouses were business owners and they were filing for divorce, and they were trying to figure out how to still continue... They had a very, very successful business, but they buy and sell, I'm just going to use the word property very generally, regularly. I mean, that was basically what the nature of their business is. They buy and sell lots of properties. And so, the question was, under this temporary restraining order, how do we keep running the business the way we need to run the business, given that basically, all they do is large transactions and how to make that work efficiently.   But other times I hear people saying, "My spouse is about to withdraw a bunch of money or transfer a bunch of money to here or there." And that's when that restraining order comes into play. But the point of all of that is just to say, the restraining order’s first important note is that you're still allowed to pay your groceries, pay your bills, pay your mortgage, do the normal things that you do to run a normal life. It's not meant to stop spending completely because that would be unrealistic. The second thing that you should know is that it's not perfect. And what I say by it's not perfect is, just because you have this restraining order in effect doesn't mean that your bank knows, doesn't mean your credit card company knows, doesn't mean that all of the institutions know what's going on.   So even though there may be this restraining order in effect, if your bank doesn't know, your spouse could theoretically make some big transfers to different places. And, yeah, that'll come up later in the discussion, but it is not something that automatically goes in place to every institution that you work with. And so, it's something that you need to be aware of and you need to communicate these things with all of your various service providers to make sure that they follow through with what's on the instructions. Now, of course, there will be or there can be consequences down the line if your spouse violates this restraining order, this temporary restraining order. However, the issue is that you have to deal with that later. Meaning, it could take a month or two or several months to get back what has been taken even after that restraining order.   And I'll give you a scenario that comes up almost every week or two that someone calls me about, is they say, "Hey, my spouse is from a foreign country." It doesn't really matter which country, but another country. "How do I protect myself?" And the big issue is, that spouse could at any moment really, they could take the... Before the divorce is filed, they could just say, "Well, I'm just going to wire all of my money to this country and then I'm going to move there and what are you going to do?" Well, that's a real possibility. And while you're married, and there's no divorce action that's been filed, that's a theoretical possibility and a real one.   But in those types of cases, I'll always say, look, your best hope is to file, or oftentimes your best hope is to file and then also send this order directly to your bank the same day to prevent a big wire transfer from going out that you don't sign off on, and the money disappearing and your spouse disappearing and you're out of luck. So it's something to think about. Another scenario that comes up all the time is, you know that divorce may be on the horizon in a year or two. It may not be immediate, but as I said, about half the people I talk to, some are close to filing, but some are several years off. And a common question is, "Hey, we're thinking about refinancing the house." And I'll say, "Where's the money going to go? Are you going to take money out? Where's that money going to go? Is this going to be a smart decision?"   And I'll walk through a bunch of questions for the individual person, but I'll say, "Hey, if you're taking out $100,000 or $300,000 as part of the refinance, is that going to be a smart move for you? And is that really what you want, particularly if you get divorced a year from now or two years from now, is that going to hurt you financially? And how do we stop your spouse from doing this?" Now, another thing to note is, as I talk about these temporary restraining orders is, if you file for a divorce because you want one of these in place, it doesn't mean that you have to rush the divorce process most of the time. You can file just to have this in place, and then work very, very slowly on the other stuff because you just don't write from a timing perspective.   But in terms of protecting your funds and protecting your money, if you're in a disadvantageous position and you don't want something to happen, or if your spouse is about to, I don't know, go back to school and take on a big student loan. You don't want that to be marital property, or that could be something else, or just take out a big debt. There are lots of different scenarios in which this could come into play. And so, I want to make sure you're aware of the importance of a temporary restraining order. It's almost in every divorce situation, but you need to think about it, know your state's rules, do your research, and it may be a very useful tool for you as you figure out the appropriate timing for filing for divorce. And it may be a good way, a useful way, to protect yourself going forward.

0230: A Restraining Order to Protect Your Money in Divorce (Automatic Temporary Restraining Order)

Visit us at divorceandyourmoney.com for the #1 divorce resources in the USA and get personalized help.   A question that's been coming up quite a bit is what day or what month do I use to value all of my stuff? What day do I pick to value the house, value the retirement account, use what numbers in the bank account? Is it June of this year? Is it April of last year? Is it when I filed for divorce? And or is it when the trial date is coming up? What day do I use to pick to value all of our stuff? And it's a really important question and a really complicated question because the date that you value all of your stuff can have really important impacts. I'll give you just a few examples so you know what I'm talking about. Let's just say you separated two years ago, and now you're finally getting to the divorce negotiation, which is a very common situation.   Well, two years ago, your house may have been worth $500,000, but let's say now your house is worth $700,000. And you're planning on keeping the house. Do you use the $500,000 valuation from two years ago, or do you use the $700,000 valuation? Or a more complicated subject that I've been dealing with a lot lately is people who have stock options. This one's a very tricky one, but if you have stock options, those options often have certain grant dates where you get more options or certain exercises dates where those options get a lot more liquid or have more value. And so, one of the things that gets complicated is, well, when you're trying to get divorced or you or your spouse has stock options, not only what date do you use to value those options? Because generally speaking, oftentimes those options can fluctuate substantially in value over time, but also how many options are actual marital property versus not?   And trying to figure that out can be very important. And the reason I bring up this subject is it is something that you should be thinking of. And then the third example that actually happens is a very simple one that actually doesn't have a lot of complications, but something you should be thinking about, which is, let's just say, I was talking to someone this morning about this. Let's just say you and your spouse are going to negotiate things yourselves, and it's relatively amicable, all things considered. And you're trying to figure out, well, what day do we use to pick for the bank accounts? Do we use last month? Do we use three months ago, whatever it is? And we just want to make sure that we're all on the same page and that could be a simple situation, but the point is, is that all of your property fluctuates.   Oh, and then one more, sorry, I said that one more example, but if you think about a retirement account or a stock brokerage account or an investment account. Investments in your account fluctuate every day. And so if you were to calculate your investments on April 5th, that same investment account will have a totally different value on April 6th. And it could have a very different value in July of the next year. So there are a lot of things to think about when it comes to what date you pick to value assets. And I just want to give you some things to think about. And the important thing about this episode is to know what date to pick and to be thinking about what date to use. And it may give you some thoughts in terms of what timing you should pursue when it comes to your divorce process.   And another way to think about the date that you value the assets is your separation date. And the goal in your divorce is to have a date where all of your assets, all of your debts are valued as of that date. So there is no confusion. So things go up in the future, that's not something that gets discussed. If things go down in the future, that's not something that really gets discussed either. The goal is to have it consistent going forward. Now, what is extra complicated about this topic is two things. One is that every state has very different laws as to how the separation date or the date that you value assets gets calculated. On top of that, it can change within the divorce process and depending on your state's rules.   And so you need to really understand and talk with an attorney about the ways that your assets may be valued and sometimes revalued. And I'll give you some examples of what the options might be. So in some states, you use the date that you separated. Now, what does separation mean? For some people, it's very clear. The data separation could be the date that one spouse moves out of the house, or I talk to plenty of people where one spouse lives upstairs. The other spouse lives in the basement. And you could use that as the date of separation, but oftentimes you are still living under the same roof, pretty much in the same space. And it's hard to determine what that date of separation is. And sometimes it can be a big fight. And when I say fight, I'll say negotiation about what the date of separation is because whatever date you pick could have a very big impact on how much money each spouse ends up with at the end of the day.   So the date of separation is one option. A second option that comes up all the time is a very clean and easy one to understand, which is the date you filed for divorce, right? So the day you file, that can oftentimes end up being the date that you use to value all of your houses, your bank accounts, your credit card debt, your retirement accounts, et cetera, would be on that date you file for divorce. A third option that can come up as well, is the date, or sometime right before a trial. So oftentimes if you have, or sometimes if you have a trial date set, your state may say, and as I said, all of this is very state-dependent. So you need to figure out the rules in your state, but your state may say that, okay, well, we have a trial coming up in nine months. I'm just going to say the trial for sake of example is going to be in December. So they might say we're going to value everything as of October and use that as the value of all the assets.   And if you're coming up on a trial date, you may have been in this process for a year, two, three years or longer to get to that date. And therefore, that's why they decide to do everything closer to the actual trial date because they know that things have fluctuated quite a bit. And then finally, the last option is oftentimes, or sometimes you can decide upon a date that you want. So if you and your spouse agree that this is the date that we're going to use for separation to value all of our assets, then that's the date that you pick.   And it could be as simple as that, but both of you have to agree. And it's not always super simple to get both of you to agree. So there are lots of options there. Could be the date of separation, could be the date you file for divorce, could be a date right before a trial, or could be a date that you and your spouse agree upon. But an important point to know is the date that you separated, the date that you value all of your assets can have a huge impact on your divorce and how much money each person gets. And one of the places that comes up a lot of times in the coaching discussions and divorce strategy discussions is what date should we be pushing for? And why?   Because if you have stock options that grant in three months, well, maybe you should file for divorce now to protect those options that you get granted to you in three months, right? Because they wouldn't be included in the marital pile. Or maybe the question is, well, we should push for a date later down the line because there are benefits to waiting in your particular situation. It really just depends. And it depends on your situation, depends on your state, but it's a topic for discussion that can oftentimes get overlooked by one party. And I want to make sure that you are aware of it and thinking of it when it comes to determining well, how much is all of this stuff really worth?

0092: The Optimist's Guide to Divorce - Interview with Jill Sockwell, Author

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