Does China want to hack into your washing machine? What really is the dark web? And can you ever avoid being spied on in the 21st century?

Listen as David and Gordon are once again joined by the CIA's first Chief of Tradecraft and Operational Technology, Glenn Chafetz, to discuss the nuances of ubiquitous technical surveillance and how you can protect your data in the digital age.

-------------------

Make someone a Declassified Club Member in 2026 – go deeper into the world of espionage with exclusive Q&As, interviews with top intelligence insiders, regular livestreams, ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, and weekly deep dives into original spy stories. Members also get curated reading lists, special book discounts, prize draws, and access to our private chat community.

Just go to ⁠⁠therestisclassified.com⁠ or join on Apple Podcasts.

-------------------

THE REST IS CLASSIFIED LIVE 2026: Buy your tickets ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠HERE⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to see David and Gordon live on stage at London’s Southbank Centre on 31 January.

-------------------

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Email: ⁠⁠⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠⁠⁠

Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@restisclassified

Social Producer: Emma Jackson

Producer: Becki Hills

Head of History: Dom Johnson

Exec Producer: Tony Pastor

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The world of surveillance has changed beyond recognition over the past 25 years with the advent of technology. From CCTV cameras to cookie tracking, it's not so easy to escape the long arm of the intelligence services in 2025.

David and Gordon are joined by the CIA's first Chief of Tradecraft and Operational Technology, Glenn Chafetz, to explore the ever-changing world of ubiquitous technical surveillance and why the Chinese state is upping their capabilities in this space.

-------------------

Make someone a Declassified Club Member in 2026 – go deeper into the world of espionage with exclusive Q&As, interviews with top intelligence insiders, regular livestreams, ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, and weekly deep dives into original spy stories. Members also get curated reading lists, special book discounts, prize draws, and access to our private chat community.

Just go to ⁠⁠therestisclassified.com⁠ or join on Apple Podcasts.

-------------------

THE REST IS CLASSIFIED LIVE 2026: Buy your tickets ⁠⁠⁠⁠HERE⁠⁠⁠⁠ to see David and Gordon live on stage at London’s Southbank Centre on 31 January.

-------------------

Try Attio for free at ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.attio.com/tric⁠⁠⁠⁠

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Email: ⁠⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠⁠

Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@restisclassified

Social Producer: Emma Jackson

Producer: Becki Hills

Head of History: Dom Johnson

Exec Producer: Tony Pastor

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Bill Donovan has set himself up across an entire floor of the swanky London hotel, Claridge’s. From here he is now running international intelligence operations and laying plans for the future of espionage in the United States.

But, his arch nemesis, J. Edgar Hoover has an alternative vision for how these lofty ideas should play out. Listen as David and Gordon continue their tale of Wild Bill Donovan: the man who laid the foundations for the modern CIA. 

-------------------

Make someone a Declassified Club Member this Christmas – go deeper into the world of espionage with exclusive Q&As, interviews with top intelligence insiders, regular livestreams, ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, and weekly deep dives into original spy stories. Members also get curated reading lists, special book discounts, prize draws, and access to our private chat community.

Just go to ⁠⁠https://therestisclassified.supportingcast.fm/gifts⁠⁠

And of course, you can still join for yourself any time at ⁠therestisclassified.com⁠ or on Apple Podcasts.

-------------------

THE REST IS CLASSIFIED LIVE 2026: Buy your tickets ⁠⁠⁠HERE⁠⁠⁠ to see David and Gordon live on stage at London’s Southbank Centre on 31 January.

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Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@restisclassified

Social Producer: Emma Jackson

Producer: Becki Hills

Head of History: Dom Johnson

Exec Producer: Tony Pastor

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

“Wild” Bill Donovan laid the template for the formation of the modern CIA, but this wasn’t the way his life was supposed to turn out. A working class boy from Buffalo, Bill dreamt of something better for himself. These dreams took him to the trenches of Belgium and the beaches of Normandy, then to the halls of power themselves. 

This is the story of the man behind the CIA. From decorated war hero to an eccentric establishment figure, listen as David and Gordon tell the story of Wild Bill Donovan.

-------------------

Make someone a Declassified Club Member this Christmas – go deeper into the world of espionage with exclusive Q&As, interviews with top intelligence insiders, regular livestreams, ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, and weekly deep dives into original spy stories. Members also get curated reading lists, special book discounts, prize draws, and access to our private chat community.

Just go to ⁠https://therestisclassified.supportingcast.fm/gifts⁠

And of course, you can still join for yourself any time at ⁠therestisclassified.com⁠ or on Apple Podcasts.

-------------------

THE REST IS CLASSIFIED LIVE 2026: Buy your tickets ⁠⁠HERE⁠⁠ to see David and Gordon live on stage at London’s Southbank Centre on 31 January.

-------------------

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Email: ⁠[email protected]⁠

Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@restisclassified

Social Producer: Emma Jackson

Producer: Becki Hills

Head of History: Dom Johnson

Exec Producer: Tony Pastor

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Nine people dead. A severed head laying motionless in the rubble. Silence punctuated by screams. The moments after the 2009 Camp Chapman attack sound like something out of a horror film, but this was the devastating reality for those who trusted an Al Qaeda double agent to deliver on his promises.

In this episode, David and Gordon reach the climax of their series on one of the deadliest days in CIA history. 

-------------------

Make someone a Declassified Club Member this Christmas – go deeper into the world of espionage with exclusive Q&As, interviews with top intelligence insiders, regular livestreams, ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, and weekly deep dives into original spy stories. Members also get curated reading lists, special book discounts, prize draws, and access to our private chat community.

Just go to ⁠https://therestisclassified.supportingcast.fm/gifts⁠

And of course, you can still join for yourself any time at ⁠therestisclassified.com⁠ or on Apple Podcasts.

-------------------

THE REST IS CLASSIFIED LIVE 2026: Buy your tickets ⁠⁠HERE⁠⁠ to see David and Gordon live on stage at London’s Southbank Centre on 31 January.

-------------------

Try Attio for free at ⁠⁠https://www.attio.com/tric⁠⁠

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Email: ⁠[email protected]⁠

Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@restisclassified

Social Producer: Emma Jackson

Producer: Becki Hills

Head of History: Dom Johnson

Exec Producer: Tony Pastor

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jennifer Matthews was one of the most capable and formidable CIA analysts working in the Counter Terrorism Centre during the War on Terror. She was also underestimated by her male colleagues who doubted she had what it took to run one of the most dangerous stations in Afghanistan.

When Matthews took the post of CIA station chief at Camp Chapman, she knew the risks she faced. But, what she didn’t know was that Al Qaeda were training a double agent who sought to bring the War on Terror to her front door. 

Listen as David and Gordon chart the preparations for al-Balawi’s arrival at Camp Chapman and why the intelligence received by the CIA and GID may have been fatally flawed. 

-------------------

Make someone a Declassified Club Member this Christmas – go deeper into the world of espionage with exclusive Q&As, interviews with top intelligence insiders, regular livestreams, ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, and weekly deep dives into original spy stories. Members also get curated reading lists, special book discounts, prize draws, and access to our private chat community.

Just go to ⁠https://therestisclassified.supportingcast.fm/gifts⁠

And of course, you can still join for yourself any time at ⁠therestisclassified.com⁠ or on Apple Podcasts.

-------------------

THE REST IS CLASSIFIED LIVE 2026: Buy your tickets ⁠⁠HERE⁠⁠ to see David and Gordon live on stage at London’s Southbank Centre on 31 January.

-------------------

Try Attio for free at ⁠⁠https://www.attio.com/tric⁠⁠

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Email: ⁠[email protected]⁠

Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@restisclassified

Social Producer: Emma Jackson

Producer: Becki Hills

Head of History: Dom Johnson

Exec Producer: Tony Pastor

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Forget what you think you know about reality. The Rest Is Science is a mind-bending new show from Goalhanger that tears down familiar ideas… time, randomness, beauty, it will reveal just how bizarre the world truly is.

Join Professor Hannah Fry and science creator Michael Stevens (aka Vsauce) twice a week to explore big, small and surprising questions as they deep dive into theories, concepts, objects and thoughts and take us on a journey into the unexpected.

If you love digging into details that usually get skipped over, this is the show that proves reality is stranger than fiction.

Click here to subscribe to The Rest Is Science.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the years following 9/11, the US launched the War on Terror to root out the most dangerous Al Qaeda operatives across the Middle East. Their determination to avenge those who lost their lives in the 2001 attacks was unrelenting, and they were willing to go to any lengths to win, even if that meant putting their trust into a jihadist turned Jordanian agent.

In this episode, David and Gordon continue their series on the 2009 Camp Chapman attacks, detailing why the CIA and Jordanian GID felt compelled to trust a man who had spent the past few years wishing death upon all the West held dear.

-------------------

Make someone a Declassified Club Member this Christmas – go deeper into the world of espionage with exclusive Q&As, interviews with top intelligence insiders, regular livestreams, ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, and weekly deep dives into original spy stories. Members also get curated reading lists, special book discounts, prize draws, and access to our private chat community.

Just go to ⁠https://therestisclassified.supportingcast.fm/gifts⁠

And of course, you can still join for yourself any time at ⁠therestisclassified.com⁠ or on Apple Podcasts.

-------------------

THE REST IS CLASSIFIED LIVE 2026: Buy your tickets ⁠⁠HERE⁠⁠ to see David and Gordon live on stage at London’s Southbank Centre on 31 January.

-------------------

Try Attio for free at ⁠⁠https://www.attio.com/tric⁠⁠

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Email: ⁠[email protected]⁠

Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@restisclassified

Social Producer: Emma Jackson

Producer: Becki Hills

Head of History: Dom Johnson

Exec Producer: Tony Pastor

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On 30 December 2009, an Al Qaeda terrorist detonated a bomb inside a CIA station in Afghanistan. This is the story of how a quiet doctor from Jordan became responsible for one of the deadliest days in CIA history. 

Listen as David and Gordon chart the rise of Humam Khalil Abu-Mulal al-Balawi from a doctor working in a Palestinian refugee camp to one of Al Qaeda’s most prolific online voices.

-------------------

Make someone a Declassified Club Member this Christmas – go deeper into the world of espionage with exclusive Q&As, interviews with top intelligence insiders, regular livestreams, ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, and weekly deep dives into original spy stories. Members also get curated reading lists, special book discounts, prize draws, and access to our private chat community.

Just go to https://therestisclassified.supportingcast.fm/gifts

And of course, you can still join for yourself any time at therestisclassified.com or on Apple Podcasts.

-------------------

THE REST IS CLASSIFIED LIVE 2026: Buy your tickets ⁠HERE⁠ to see David and Gordon live on stage at London’s Southbank Centre on 31 January.

-------------------

Try Attio for free at ⁠https://www.attio.com/tric⁠

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EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ ⁠https://nordvpn.com/restisclassified⁠ Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee 

-------------------

Email: [email protected]

Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@restisclassified

Social Producer: Emma Jackson

Producer: Becki Hills

Head of History: Dom Johnson

Exec Producer: Tony Pastor

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In 2017, former CIA officer Kevin Mallory was drowning in debt when a message landed in his LinkedIn inbox. A Chinese “headhunter” said he had consulting work. Mallory - fluent in Mandarin, seasoned in intelligence, and once trusted with some of America’s most sensitive secrets - replied.

In this episode, David and Gordon unpack how Chinese intelligence services used think-tank cover, tailored taskings, and a custom encrypted smartphone to reel Mallory in. From FedEx scans of classified documents to a frantic attempt to reinvent himself as a double agent, this is the anatomy of a recruitment gone disastrously wrong.

-------------------

Make someone a Declassified Club Member this Christmas – go deeper into the world of espionage with exclusive Q&As, interviews with top intelligence insiders, regular livestreams, ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, and weekly deep dives into original spy stories. Members also get curated reading lists, special book discounts, prize draws, and access to our private chat community.

Just go to https://therestisclassified.supportingcast.fm/gifts

And of course, you can still join for yourself any time at therestisclassified.com or on Apple Podcasts.

-------------------

THE REST IS CLASSIFIED LIVE 2026: Buy your tickets ⁠HERE⁠ to see David and Gordon live on stage at London’s Southbank Centre on 31 January.

-------------------

Try Attio for free at ⁠https://www.attio.com/tric⁠

-------------------

EXCLUSIVE NordVPN Deal ➼ ⁠https://nordvpn.com/restisclassified⁠ Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee 

-------------------

Email: [email protected]

Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@triclassified⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Social Producer: Emma Jackson

Producer: Becki Hills

Head of History: Dom Johnson

Exec Producer: Tony Pastor

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices