This week we’re bringing you an episode from the archives: Jeff’s conversation with Charles Eisenstein, visionary, activist, and author of the books Sacred Economics, The Ascent of Humanity, and The More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know is Possible (love that title).

Charles and Jeff agree on a lot, including that a sacred world is coming and that humanity is on an ascending path.

They disagree on how we got here, and that disagreement captures the difference between even leading edge progressive thinking and an integral, evolutionary perspective. Did humanity go wrong, and do we have to fix it? Or are we just growing up?