Welcome to Anchored by Truth brought to you by Crystal Sea Books. In John 14:6, Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life.” The goal of Anchored by Truth is to encourage everyone to grow in the Christian faith by anchoring themselves to the secure truth found in the inspired, inerrant, and infallible word of God.

Script:

Then the devil who fooled them will be thrown into the lake of fire and burning sulfur. He will be there with the beast and the false prophet, and they will be in pain day and night forever and ever.

Revelation, Chapter 20, verse 10, Contemporary English Version

VK: Hi! Welcome to Anchored by Truth brought to you by Crystal Sea Books. I’m Victoria K. We’re glad that you are able to join us today on Anchored by Truth as we move forward with a series we call “The Seriousness of Sin.” We live in a day and time when not only do many people reject the idea of God but also many people do acknowledge God’s existence nevertheless reject the idea of sin. Our culture has given up or pushes away the awareness that there a holy God who will hold people accountable for all of their actions and deeds. So, we are spending several episodes of Anchored by Truth reaffirming that not only does the Bible firmly teach the reality of sin, but also that our ordinary life experiences ratify that sin is present in our lives and in the lives of everyone around us. In the studio as we continue our series we have RD Fierro who is an author and the founder of Crystal Sea Books. RD, in our first episode of this series we discussed what you called the stakes of sin – that’s stakes as in gambling stakes not the kind of steak that comes from a cow. And last time we identified that one of sin’s dire consequences is that sin will send people to hell. That’s a pretty high stake, isn’t it?

RD: I’d say that the possibility of someone winding up in hell is probably the highest possible stake for all people individually – in no small part, because as we heard in our opening scripture, hell is eternal. That verse from Revelation is very clear that the devils as well as some people are going to be “in pain day and night forever and ever.” The Beast and the False Prophet are people who have served Satan’s kingdom on this earth. So, their fate will be the same as his.

VK: That verse says that the devil is going to be thrown into “the lake of fire and burning sulfur.” And that’s one of the subjects that we want to talk about today. Do you think that the Bible is being poetic when it proclaims that the Devil’s eternal destination is a lake of fire and burning sulfur? Or, is there the possibility that that verse contains some literal truth.

RD: Well, before I get to that question I want to go over a few other parts of the Bible that talk about hell than just our verse from Revelation. I also want to remind everyone that we also spent our last episode of Anchored by Truth talking about hell. And in that last episode our focus was on the reality of hell. But in this episode we want to build on what we discussed last time and discuss the nature of hell. Just like a lot of people today want to dismiss the whole idea of sin there are people, including an entire strain of Christians, who want to dismiss the idea of hell. But, as we pointed out last time the person in the Bible who talked the most about hell is Jesus. Jesus clearly proclaimed that hell is a literal place and none of his descriptions about hell differ substantively from what we heard in our verse from Revelation.

VK: For instance, in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 13, verses 49 and 50 Jesus said, “That is the way it will be at the end of the world. The angels will come and separate the wicked people from the righteous, throwing the wicked into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” In the Gospel of Mark, chapter 9, verses 47 and 48 Jesus said, “It’s better to enter the Kingdom of God with only one eye than to … be thrown into hell, ‘where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out.’” And in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 5, verse 22 Jesus said, “If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.” These are just examples of some things that Jesus said about hell. All of those are from the New Living Translation.

RD: So, just as Jesus confirmed the reality of hell in His teaching, He also gave us a great deal to consider about the nature of hell. And notice that in all of the sample scriptures you just mentioned the idea of fire is present in each one. In Matthew, chapter 13: 50 Jesus mentions a “fiery furnace.” In Mark, chapter 9:48 hell is said to be a place “where the maggots never die and the fire never goes out.” And in Matthew 5:22 Jesus said, “if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.” So, here we have 4 different verses from various books and all of them contain some reference to fire.

VK: So, it’s little wonder that even cartoon depictions of hell and some Hollywood productions, as awful as they are theologically, all use fire as a common motif in portraying hell.

RD: Yes. But fire is not the only thing that is often mentioned when the subject of hell comes up in the Bible. One of the most prominent discussions of hell outside of Jesus’ descriptions is found in the book of Jude, which is the next to last book of the Bible. Jude, verse 6 says, “You also know about the angels who didn't do their work and left their proper places. God chained them with everlasting chains and is now keeping them in dark pits until the great day of judgment.”

VK: Jude has only one chapter so it’s only necessary to give the verse number for it.

RD: Right. So, notice that Jude mentions “dark pits” and “everlasting chains” as elements present in hell.

VK: And that reference to “dark pits” calls to mind some other verses. 1 Samuel, chapter 2, verse 9 from the Berean Standard Bible says this. “He guards the steps of His faithful ones, but the wicked perish in darkness...” The Gospel of Matthew, chapter 8, verse 12 Amplified Bible says this. “… the descendants of Abraham who will not recognize Me as Messiah will be thrown out into the outer darkness; in that place [which is farthest removed from the kingdom] there will be weeping [in sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [in distress and anger].” So, there are 3 different references about hell all of which mention “darkness.” I can see why you wanted to add a few other Bible verses to our inventory about hell before we focused more on the verse from Revelation – because, at least on the surface, it might seem hard to reconcile the idea of fire, a lake of fire, or a fiery furnace, with a place of darkness.

RD: And let’s not forget Jesus’ comment about a place where “maggots never die.” A cynic might observe that on this earth you’re very unlikely to find maggots living in the midst of a fiery furnace. In fact, that’s the last place you’d find maggots.

VK: Hmmm. I’m starting to see why you wanted to do this episode about the nature of hell. Taken together we get a picture of hell that might seem to be confusing. Some people might even argue that some of the descriptions are in conflict with others.

RD: Well, let’s add a couple of more verses into the mix and I think clarity will begin to emerge. The Apostle Paul also wrote about hell and a couple of the best known verses that he wrote about hell are found in 2 Thessalonians, chapter 1, verses 7 through 9.

VK: Those verses say, “… when the Lord Jesus appears from heaven. He will come with his mighty angels, in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don’t know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power.

RD: So, one of the key elements about hell that we can point to with certainty is “eternal destruction.” Whatever the specific manifestations of hell are they are all going to be destructive to the occupants. And that destruction is going to last eternally. Now, for those of us who live in a physical universe we are accustomed to destruction always having limits. If we tear down a building there will come a point when the building is totally destroyed. If we have a garden it can be destroyed but after it is it is just gone. Even human beings can destroy themselves but that destruction ends with death. In our physical universe destruction is never “eternal.” There are always limits. But that changes when it comes to the time after death. There are no limits there on how long destruction can continue.

VK: And that should begin to strike true terror in the hearts of people who think about it. It’s one thing to suffer here. There are a lot of terrible diseases and conditions and just about everybody knows someone who has suffered with a prolonged condition. But we always know that their suffering will have a definite end. But that changes when we leave this life, doesn’t it. And that’s terrifying.

RD: Amen. So, from the Apostle Paul we see a common element that ties all of our earlier verses together. Fire, furnaces, and maggots are all destructive in one way or another. And darkness is often a consequence of destruction. Think about the clouds of smoke that are produced by a large fire especially a fire that is fed by oil or tar and especially if the fire is confined in some way. This attribute of hell is reinforced by the fact that hell is often connected with a pit or an abyss.

VK: In Revelation, chapter 9, verses 1 and 2 we are told this. “The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss.” And in the Gospel of Luke, chapter 8, verses 27 through 31, we hear this famous incident. “When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. ... When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, ‘What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don’t [torment] me!’ For Jesus had commanded the impure spirit to come out of the man. … Jesus asked him, ‘What is your name?’ ‘Legion,’ he replied, because many demons had gone into him. And they begged Jesus repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.” Both of those are from the New International Version.

RD: So, from all of these references while we may not be able to answer every question that we would like we can form some pretty clear ideas about the nature of hell – starting with the fact that hell is a place of destruction and the process of destruction goes on forever. Said differently, whatever the soul in hell experiences it will feel as though they are being destroyed and the feelings are going to last forever without let up. And it seems we can also say that that destructive presence is going to be connected with a sensation of extreme heat or fire. I don’t think we can say with certainty that there will be literal fire … but I also don’t think that we can exclude that possibility. And I definitely think that we can say that hell is a place of confinement and restriction as would be true of any pit or abyss.

VK: Well, certainly a fire burning in a pit or deep abyss would match many of the descriptions. People might sense the fire but if the fire is accompanied by a great deal of smoke that would be consistent with darkness, even a profound darkness. And certainly anything tossed into a burning pit is going to be destroyed. On this earth the destruction will end when the physical elements that comprise the thing have been reduced as far as physically possible. But if that limit doesn’t exist who knows what that is like? Certainly not any of us who are still alive in the physical universe.

RD: And that points to another important attribute to recognize about the nature of hell. In this universe we live within our bodies. We are not our bodies per se because human beings are comprised of both material and non-material components. We have bodies but we also have both souls and spirits. Even people who don’t believe in God know that they have a “mind” and emotions that are separate from their physical body. Their mind and emotions are certainly affected by their bodies but even non-believers can make that distinction. But our mind, soul, spirits, etc. are present in this life only within our bodies. So, our bodies put a limit on our suffering. But that limit is cast off when our souls, spirits, and minds are separated from our bodies.

VK: Oh. I think I see what you’re saying and I don’t like it. In this life all the sensations we experience are filtered by our flesh. When our flesh fails our sensations change. There are certain conditions like diabetes or Hansen’s disease where nerves deteriorate and are no longer able to transmit signals to the brain. Hansen’s disease is one form of leprosy. With those kinds of diseases the body might deteriorate, even severely, and the person would never notice it because they wouldn’t get the sensations of the decline that would normally be present.

RD: But all that would change if it’s not your flesh that is passing the signals. If we could somehow perceive pain directly without the mediation of our body it’s impossible for us to conceive of how horrible that would be. Remember the Bible is clear that the demons are going to be tormented in hell also. Think about the verses we just heard from Luke, chapter 8. Well, demons are spiritual creatures. They don’t have bodies. But they can experience torment despite not having a body and they clearly have a fear of the abyss – likely because that is the place of torment. The point is that on this earth we can at least always have the comfort of knowing that suffering will have limits. It may not feel that way sometimes, but we know it will end at some point. But the demons are very well aware that they can be tormented in the abyss without limit.

VK: Yikes. That’s something that we never think about. We are so used to living in the physical world that it is hard for us to envision a condition where we don’t have the limits we have here.

RD: So, as we said last time, all of this points out why we need to soberly and honestly discuss the seriousness of sin. Sin and hell are inextricably linked. Sin separates people from God’s goodness and exposes them to the horror of hell. And hell is horrible. And there is at least one more thing we need to make clear about hell before we wrap up for today.

VK: Which is?

RD: We need to get rid of the idea that hell is some kind of a giant party place where the sinners will be with their sinful friends and all of them together with just continue sinning for all eternity.

VK: Well, I think most of us have heard the old saying that goes something like this. “I don’t care if I get sent to hell. That’s where all my friends will be.” Is that what you’re talking about?

RD: Yes. There is this frivolous notion that circulates that even if hell is a hot place everyone there will be free to roam about and at least share their misery with other people. Nothing could be further from the truth.

VK: You’re thinking about the verse that we heard from Jude and about Revelation, chapter 20, verses 1 and 2. Those verses say, “And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him …” That’s the New International Version. Both Jude and John who wrote Revelation mention demons being bound with chains. Anyone bound with chains is certainly not going to be roaming about.

RD: Yes. Now, again, I don’t know if the chains are literal or whether God is simply using images that would have been familiar to the audiences of that time. Chains in prison was certainly common in the age when Jude and John wrote. But whether the chains are literal or not the language Jude and John used sends a very clear message that demons and people in hell are going to be confined. Will they be confined together or separately? We don’t know. But there is no Bible verse that indicates that the prisoners in hell will have the opportunity to be sharing their misery with one another.

VK: I see what you’re getting at. One common idea about hell is that it will be like an earthly prison – a hot one maybe – but like a prison. And in prison prisoners are usually free to move about and talk to each other. Only the worst prisons chain the prisoners and where that is done it adds misery to misery. But you see that as a distinct possibility in hell.

RD: Yes. A lot of people would like to think that all of the Bible’s descriptions about the attributes, the nature, of hell are symbolic rather than literal. But, as the New Geneva Study Bible puts it in their text note on hell, “These terms are probably symbolic rather than literal, but, if anything, the reality will be more terrible than the symbol. New Testament teaching about hell is meant to appall us and fill us with horror …”

VK: The symbols in the Bible always have an underlying reality. For hundreds of years the Jews were told that a Messiah was coming who would be their deliverer. And they associated the Passover lamb with that deliverance because of their deliverance from bondage in Egypt. But when the ultimate Passover Lamb arrived the deliverance wasn’t just from political bondage but from the even far greater bondage to sin and hell. In other words, the reality of Christ’s sacrifice provided a far better deliverance than they had ever expected. That’s the positive side of symbols and reality. Hell is the negative side.

RD: Yes. Hell is not just a possibility. It is a certainty for all who reject Jesus. So, why risk eternal fire, chains, darkness, and bottomless pits when there is no need. Jesus will deliver everyone who confesses their sin and accepts His provision for their sin. When He taught, Jesus talked about hell in large measure to make sure that his audience understood what was at stake. So, regardless of how conceive of all of the descriptive elements of hell being manifested in reality, the truth is that our human minds probably can’t form an adequate image of the true horror.

VK: I am reminded of 1 (First) Corinthians, chapter 2, verses 7 through 9. “… the wisdom we speak of is the mystery of God—his plan that was previously hidden, even though he made it for our ultimate glory before the world began. But the rulers of this world have not understood it; if they had, they would not have crucified our glorious Lord. That is what the Scriptures mean when they say,

“No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love him.” When the Apostle Paul wrote that he was saying that heaven is going to be so glorious that we can’t image how glorious it will be. The glory of heaven has never entered the imagination of any human mind.

RD: Yes. And the same thing is true on the flip side. And one final note. In the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25, verse 41, Jesus said, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” That’s the New International Version. Notice that Jesus, who would know, said that the eternal fire was not prepared for people. It was prepared for the devil and his rebellious angel followers. Human beings were created to live in Eden. Adam and Eve exchanged a life without death in Eden for death and the possibility of sharing hell with the demons by disobeying God. That’s how serious sin is. One sin in Eden cost mankind an earthly paradise. Now it is up to each of us to decide whether we want to also give up our eternal paradise. As Paul said, God has prepared wonderful things for those who love Him. Why wouldn’t we simply accept God’s gracious offer of salvation through Christ Jesus?

VK: So, the big idea that we wanted to introduce in this series is that sin is serious. The nature of hell shows us how serious God is about sin. If sin weren’t cosmically serious hell wouldn’t have to be so cosmically horrible. Our culture doesn’t like the idea of sin or hell and we understand that. But our preferences don’t change reality. We don’t like the idea of sin or that we might be sent to hell. At Anchored by Truth we’re not naïve. We get that many people find the idea of sin and hell objectionable. But the question that each of us must answer for ourselves is whether we will accept the provisions that Jesus made for us or stubbornly continue to insist that sin is just an outdated concept with no relevance to our modern world. This sounds like a great time to pray. Today let’s listen to a prayer for our nation. It’s not too late but the clock is rapidly drawing down on our opportunity to be a nation that serves God rather than our own self-interest. Peter told us that God wants everyone to come to repentance. God is gracious. We should avail ourselves of that grace while we are this side of the veil that separates time and eternity. Life is short. Judgement is certain. Christ’s provision is available to ensure the light we will see is the glory of God not the flames of perdition.

---- PRAYER FOR THE NATION (MARCUS)

VK: We’d like to remind our audience that a lot of our radio episodes are linked together in series of topics so if they missed any episodes or if they just want to hear one again, all of these episodes are available on your favorite podcast app. To find them just search on “Anchored by Truth by Crystal Sea Books.”

If you’d like to hear more, try out crystalseabooks.com where “We’re not perfect but our Boss is!”

(Opening Bible Quote from the Contemporary English Version)

Revelation, Chapter 20, verse 10, Contemporary English Version