If you're a new dad and you’ve been feeling like a stranger in your own home, or if the joy you expected has been replaced by a heavy, silent struggle, this episode is for you. You aren't a 'bad dad,' and you aren't weak. You are navigating a massive neurological, hormonal, and lifestyle shift that no one warned you about. There is hope and there are answers.

Dr. Shoshannah Guerrero has her PhD. in Marriage and Family Therapy and Dr Rachael Schmitz is the sole author for her first publication within the American Journal of Nursing on her dissertation work, the lived experience of fathers with paternal postpartum depression.

You can contact Dr Schmitz at [email protected]

You can reach Dr. Guerrero at [email protected]

Special thanks to Smile Online Course & Books for sponsoring this episode. To learn more visit: https://thefatherhoodchallenge--smileteenskills.thrivecart.com/social-career-skills-accelerator/

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00:05.55

Jonathan Guerrero

We've all seen the commercials. the new The new dad glowing with pride, effortlessly rocking and a sleeping infant while his life... while his life feels perfectly in sync.

00:16.89

Jonathan Guerrero

But for many men, the reality of the new fatherhood looks and feels very different. Instead of a glow, there's a fog. Instead of instant connection, there's a crushing sense of isolation, irritability, or the feeling that you're falling ah that you're failing a task, that you're failing a test that you didn't even know you were taking.

00:38.55

Jonathan Guerrero

In our culture, we expect dads to be the rock. We are told to man up, to support the mother, to bury our own struggles under the weight of provision. But the data tells us a different story.

00:50.74

Jonathan Guerrero

One in 10 fathers will experience paternal postpartum depression. And yet, because it often shows up as anger or withdrawal rather than sadness, it goes undiagnosed and untreated.

01:04.73

Jonathan Guerrero

If you've been feeling like a stranger in your own home, or if the joy you expected has been replaced by a heavy, silent struggle, this episode is for you. You aren't a bad dad, and you aren't weak.

01:18.45

Jonathan Guerrero

You are navigating a massive neurological, hormonal, and lifestyle shift that no one warned you about. There is hope, and there are answers in just a moment, so don't go anywhere.

01:33.18

Jonathan Guerrero

Greetings, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me in this episode called The Silent Crisis. I have two guests with me. My wife, Dr. Shoshana Guerrero, who has her PhD in marriage and family therapy, and Dr. Rachel Schmitz, the sole author of her first publication within the American Journal of Nursing on her dissertation work, The Lived Experience of Fathers with Paternal Postpartum Depression.

01:59.06

Jonathan Guerrero

Welcome to the Fatherhood Challenge.

02:01.75

Rachael Schmitz 

Thank you.

02:03.06

Jonathan Guerrero

Thanks so much. So let's talk about, Rachel, let's start with you. You've noted that for men, depression is often, it often looks like sadness.

02:13.88

Jonathan Guerrero

It looks like a short fuse sometimes. Why does the male brain often funnel emotional pain into irritability or rage? And how can a dad tell the difference between new parent stress and clinical postpartum depression? Yeah.

02:30.39

Rachael Schmitz 

So for fathers, um they don't often manifest in the ways that we think about when we think about depression. Most people, when you talk to them about depression, they think about sadness, crying, a lot of those very typical depressive type symptoms. In fathers, they can manifest in very different ways, like you said. The reason behind that I found in my study was that a lot of the men felt very isolated.

03:01.85

Rachael Schmitz 

They felt very confused. They felt very frustrated by the um transition. They didn't really feel prepared. um a lot of them felt very helpless.

03:14.07

Rachael Schmitz 

um So a lot of different things happening at the same time, causing a lot of those different symptoms. And for some of the fathers in particular, they um identified the depression because they were so irritable or they started being very angry in situations that would not normally make them very angry.

03:40.31

Jonathan Guerrero

Interesting. So they did they recognize that even they basically recognize this even in themselves, they could tell when those symptoms were coming on.

03:50.01

Rachael Schmitz 

They did, and oftentimes it was their partner that just said, you know, I noticed that you are not really yourself. ah Maybe you're isolating a little bit.

04:03.29

Rachael Schmitz 

um So a lot of their partners did recognize some changes, whether they were able to kind of pinpoint what exactly was going on um kind of depended on the relationship. But most of the, uh,

04:20.14

Rachael Schmitz 

partners did notice that something was happening.

04:25.40

Jonathan Guerrero

Many dads feel a deep sense of guilt because they don't have that instant bond with their baby. How does paternal postpartum depression interfere with the bonding process? And what do you say to the dad who feels like a monster because he doesn't feel anything at all?

04:43.64

Rachael Schmitz 

So that's really common. Unfortunately, the depressive symptoms, the impact of those symptoms really do take away from that new role. um And just having those episodes of irritability or anger or rage can cause somebody to feel embarrassed by how they're behaving or how they feel, especially when on the surface, um everybody else is joyful and happy with the situation. So that brings a whole new level of shame or disappointment. to a situation when the perception is you're supposed to be really happy. And if you're not, that seems really confusing.

05:28.38

Jonathan Guerrero

The scary thing is even as we're talking about this, I recognize some of those symptoms myself because I could, I could feel some of those very same things, which is, well, basically nothing at all.

05:39.62

Jonathan Guerrero

That's why it sounds familiar. And I often wondered as I discovered those symptoms were actual symptoms of something. I often wonder like how many other dads felt the exact same thing. And then on top of that, were aware and felt guilty for it.

05:55.77

Rachael Schmitz 

Right.

05:56.02

Jonathan Guerrero

So that's really fascinating.

05:57.69

Rachael Schmitz 

Right. And a lot of lot of differences um just sociology-wise. You know, girls are raised to have baby dolls that they kind of carry around. They change them. They feed them. They're intentionally given things to kind of groom them in that way, so to speak, where boys are not given those same thing, toys to play with. And so some of it is just when they become a father, they don't really have that frame of reference to pull from. So they do feel really uncomfortable and they do feel almost like a fish out of water because they haven't really had any training with that when they become a parent.

06:38.68

Rachael Schmitz 

Also, women just by nature of the pregnancy have many months to kind of prepare both physically and mentally. for what that looks like for that individual when they become a parent. um Fathers don't get that that length of time to prepare. For a lot of fathers, it's hard to imagine.

07:00.28

Rachael Schmitz 

They know that their partner's having a baby, but it's not until the baby arrives that a lot of them start to actually feel like they can step into that role.

07:10.51

Jonathan Guerrero

Sean, I'm curious too, have you seen that in your own, for example, have you seen that in your practice where ah a man has felt guilty, a a new dad has felt guilty for not feeling anything at all?

07:24.73

Jonathan Guerrero

I wouldn't describe it that way. I think to Rachel's point that the cultural upbringing makes a big difference. Girls are culturally um given the opportunities to do some caregiving, to be around babies, to be aware of their needs. um I would say from a personal perspective, i still wasn't as prepared for the ongoing demands of a baby, which makes sense once you're on the other side of it.

07:56.12

Jonathan Guerrero

But it's the um knowing, like, the babies are fragile, but not so fragile you can't move them around a little bit. Not so fragile you can't help with the diaper change. Not so fragile you can't sit and hold them and things like that. And so I actually have started asking people, men in general,

08:14.23

Jonathan Guerrero

what their familiarity is with babies. Have they, you know, are they around toddlers even? um And that has then helped me to see that girls are given, even as teens, this the opportunity and maybe even the expectation that they will be caregiving little ones.

08:33.24

Jonathan Guerrero

And so I've just tried to create opportunities for our boys so that they are around little ones and see their needs and and how fragile they can be, but also how challenging they can be just with how they have limited communication and things like that. So anyways, um those are some of the thoughts that came to mind based on what you were talking about, Rachel.

08:57.50

Rachael Schmitz 

Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. And, you know, one of the things that I think was really challenging as well is just and you kind of touched on it briefly is just those limitations as far as self-care. You know, it's one of those things that nobody um can really adequately prepare you for what it's like to become a parent until you've become a parent. So you might be told a lot of things ahead of time about the sleep deprivation or just some of the limitations of the role. And it's not until you're actually living it day to day that you really understand how challenging and how demanding that role really is.

09:42.35

Jonathan Guerrero

canny Give me just one second. I got somebody removing something in the room.

10:19.83

Jonathan Guerrero

That is one thing that I'll joke about that you're going to do some of the most important work of your life and you think, okay, I'm going to take some time to prep. I'm going to be like my most fit. I'm going to be my most rested.

10:31.15

Jonathan Guerrero

And then the, the, the rules are changed and you're actually going to be the most exhausted because you've given birth to a child and then you're not going to get any sleep. So you have to do the most important work of your life without sleep and in repair mode.

10:39.54

Rachael Schmitz 

ff here

10:44.23

Jonathan Guerrero

So.

10:45.21

Rachael Schmitz 

Right, right. And then also, i would add to that as well, you know, the some of the relationship challenges that arise from that. So, you know, we can all relate to periods of time where maybe, you know, you came home from work, and you had a really bad day, maybe had a headache or something like that. And,

11:04.41

Rachael Schmitz 

you know, one really small thing happened with your kids or spouse and it just kind of set you off and, you know, you started to get really frustrated over a situation that normally you wouldn't be frustrated about. So there's a lot of relationship stressors, I guess, if you will, that kind of arise from that experience. And because of the demands of it, you know, when we're sleep deprived, we're not as tolerant of other people's behavior. And so a lot of things emotional wise can really kind of make things more challenging.

11:41.21

Jonathan Guerrero

Coming at it from a different angle too, had a really interesting conversation in another episode and ah the guest and I were talking about how, ah you know, there's this perception from new dads that new moms have it all figured out and that there's this instinctive thing that's just wired into them where they just naturally know what to do with a ah newborn.

12:08.57

Jonathan Guerrero

And there's this confidence. Everything is there. And we don't have that. So there's immediate shutdown over that. And I've had countless moms come on and say very bluntly that no, they didn't have it all figured out. No, they didn't know what they were doing.

12:27.96

Jonathan Guerrero

And a lot of new dads aren't getting this message that for the most part, everyone is on this level playing field of figuring it out.

12:28.88

Rachael Schmitz 

Thank you.

12:36.57

Jonathan Guerrero

The difference is that new moms know if I don't do something towards figuring this out, this baby is going to die. And it has that for whatever reason, that reality hasn't quite sunken at that level for new dads. So moms will go and do the research. So they will go into groups and they'll talk with each other and they will do all of the learning. They will do what they have to do to learn what they have to do. Whereas men have this, this mentality of, well,

13:06.19

Jonathan Guerrero

It's better I just don't touch it because then I can't risk breaking it. It's better to do that, to not do anything and not break it than to touch it and break it. And that's the that's where a lot of new dads, I think, start.

13:20.92

Jonathan Guerrero

And then that just can send dads into a whole nother spiral of shame over that that's not talked about.

13:21.37

Rachael Schmitz 

Right.

13:28.09

Rachael Schmitz 

Yeah. And moms, like you said, you know, they may be making it up as they go as well. um But, you know, socially, again, you know, women are really different. You know, when they start to um experience some issues, they'll reach out, they'll go to a mom's group. Um, there's a lot of breastfeeding, um, new breastfeeding moms groups and, um, that they can bring other kids to when they're younger and preschool age and younger. So there seems to be a lot more social outlets for moms to kind of reach out and ask those questions and, and get those answers. Um, fathers, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of social outlets for them to reach out in that way. um Some of that I think is just um the differences, I guess, between the genders. um

14:24.89

Rachael Schmitz 

And some of that is just, you know, there are some men now that stay home with their kids. But, you know, if you think 15 or 20 years ago, that was almost unheard of. So I think that it is changing in that way. So hopefully in the future for my kids, maybe your kids, There will be acceptable social outlets that they can reach out to other fathers and bring some of their concerns and talk through some of their questions or problems, some of the demi demands that they have from having that new infant.

15:02.78

Jonathan Guerrero

Yeah, so ah a lot of personal conversations happen in a barbershop. So sometimes I can't help but wonder, what if there was a barbershop for new dads? Imagine the conversations that would finally happen and in a place like that.

15:17.34

Rachael Schmitz 

It's a great idea.

15:23.38

Jonathan Guerrero

Men are often more in tune with their bodies than their emotions. What are some common physical telltale signs like chaotic headaches or digestive issues or back pain that might actually be the body screaming that the mind is in trouble?

15:43.70

Rachael Schmitz 

I would say, you know, in terms of the somatic symptoms outside of just those depressive symptoms, um frequent headaches, um the brain and the gut, there's a clear pathway that goes from one to the other. So any sort of, you know, frequent or constant stomach ache or GI distress, you know, that can very easily be tied to something going on in the mind. um Any sort of fatigue,

16:11.90

Rachael Schmitz 

any other symptoms as far as um sleeping too much, not getting enough sleep, eating too much, not eating enough. So any of those extremes um are more physical symptoms that we would say that come with this. Anything that is not... um normally how your body, how you know your body. So most of us um are pretty in tune with how we feel most of the time. So a lot of these symptoms, we call them somatic symptoms, but any of these symptoms that present and kind of linger for a period of time, those can be another indication that something might be going on from a mental health perspective.

16:56.19

Jonathan Guerrero

Shauna, what are your thoughts?

17:00.85

Jonathan Guerrero

That was a really great description. As Rachel was talking, the the one thing that came to mind is I often talk with clients about how men are allowed to be angry. They're allowed to be happy.

17:12.15

Jonathan Guerrero

We like them to be jovial, and we'd really like to see them sad on you know sad occasions, but we don't want it to really stretch out too long. And so that means really anger becomes the one place where they can really express themselves.

17:25.33

Jonathan Guerrero

And so then we also then become kind of normalized to like men are angry versus recognizing that that anger and irritability is often a sign of anxiety or depression. So those were just some additional thoughts into based on what Rachel shared.

17:40.34

Rachael Schmitz 

Yeah.

17:40.38

Jonathan Guerrero

What is it you said about the men have how many emotions? i said we allow them to have four emotions.

17:47.54

Rachael Schmitz 

three

17:47.80

Jonathan Guerrero

Culturally, we were okay with men having four emotions. And so a lot of work I do is like, how can we expand your emotional vocabulary to be able to communicate what you're experiencing?

18:00.28

Rachael Schmitz 

One of the um more, and you kind of touched on it just now about the acceptable um ways of an emotion for them would be the anger. So that's where in my study that I found that some of the fathers would um have some risk-taking behavior.

18:20.38

Rachael Schmitz 

um And that was kind of ah an attempt to kind of cope with some of those emotions that they were experiencing. And um on the surface, you know, just seemed like they were just being really reckless. But um it really was just a way kind of under the surface for them to kind of recalibrate what was going on in their life and trying to just adjust to the expectations of fatherhood and of that new role.

18:51.29

Jonathan Guerrero

as far as the anger is concerned too, and we've addressed this in several episodes too, but a lot of dads will instinctively, if they have any anger, they'll take it out on their family or they will vent it to their spouse.

19:08.98

Jonathan Guerrero

And, um you know, in certain cases, yeah, that might be appropriate, but ah you know, if there's a lot of anger, um and and your wife is a new mom, and she's got her own baggage, her own challenges ah that she's trying to work through.

19:28.60

Jonathan Guerrero

And so this is where we've talked about how badly dads need a community where they can just call up some other dude and and just just rant, yell, whatever,

19:43.83

Jonathan Guerrero

And that dude can say, hey, yo, chill, bro. Come on. Come on over. Let's go get a burger somewhere or whatever. Let's go talk about it there. And then offload that steam because the wife isn't supposed to carry all of that.

19:59.22

Jonathan Guerrero

ah She can't. She's trying to also figure out this newborn. um And I think that that isn't stressed enough.

20:09.46

Rachael Schmitz 

Yeah, i would ah I would agree with you as well. And i would also just say that, you know, the isolation and confusion and some of the identity loss is is a real challenge and it's not something... And it's kind of ironic. Women are kind of pulled into the care and into that social environment to assess how they're doing and and kind of evaluate it. Men are kind of pushed away from that framework in a medical sense. And they're just kind of the message is just regulate it yourself, kind of figure it out on your own, um which

20:48.38

Rachael Schmitz 

For a lot of things, you know, it seems that a lot of fathers kind of prefer that way, that they kind of manage things on their own and they figure it out. um But when it comes to this particular thing, it's it's not something often that you can just figure out on your own. It's much more effective to have some support.

21:09.82

Jonathan Guerrero

Okay, I've been waiting to ask you both this question. We talk about baby brain for moms, but men's hormones change significantly after birth too. Can you walk us through the drop and test truck that the drop in testosterone and the rise in cortisol that can leave a man feeling off his game?

21:35.83

Rachael Schmitz 

Can you repeat? It just cut out the last part. I'm sorry.

21:39.99

Jonathan Guerrero

Yes. ah we talk about a baby's We talk about baby brain for moms, but men's hormones change significantly after a birth as well. Can you walk us through the drop in testosterone and the rise in cortisol that can leave men feeling off their game?

21:57.50

Rachael Schmitz 

Right. So a lot of this people are more familiar with as an age, age-related decline, it's more of a common. So, you know, once you hit 30, 35, that testosterone level starts to kind of drop a little bit minimally. And then by and 50s, most men kind of notice it. It's obviously a lot more significant by age 60. Some of those symptoms are having less energy, feeling fatigued, having some increased abdominal fat, maybe trouble sleeping, low libido, that brain fog, like you mentioned.

22:38.76

Rachael Schmitz 

um So a lot of those changes kind of happen naturally. Obviously, there's lots that men can do to kind of address that. If there's issues with sleep, they can, you know, prioritize their sleep, um work to kind of make ah their lifestyle a lot more active, nutrition-wise, there's a lot of things that they can stay away from. So staying away from those processed or ultra-processed foods, um minimizing or decreasing alcohol intake, making sure that your vitamin D levels are in a good range. And then a lot of men now, they'll start to just do a replacement, like women did, the hormone replacement. So they'll start replacing that with just testosterone.

23:28.36

Jonathan Guerrero

This hormonal shift, this is normal, right? Is this basic biology? Like guys are supposed to go through this change when they become a new dad?

23:42.23

Rachael Schmitz 

So some of the declines, so in women, when they have the, after the delivery, they have a pretty significant drop in their hormone levels as well. um One of the primary hormones that cause issues here is the cortisol. So cortisol is your stress hormone.

24:06.30

Rachael Schmitz 

um It's produced from the adrenal glands, which sit just on top of the, the kidneys. it follows a normal circadian rhythm. So if you have a normal sleep-wake cycle, that can be normal. But in a um new dad that maybe has some sudden event, like becoming a father, you can have some pretty abrupt changes with your normal cortisol levels. So for most people, they are um really high in the morning, and then it kind of gradually declines as you go through the day. That's normal.

24:41.60

Rachael Schmitz 

And that's necessary for you to sleep well and all of those things. But when you have some sort of chronic stress situation, which I would liken into becoming a new dad, you can have those cortisol levels that are chronically high.

24:57.78

Rachael Schmitz 

um And that can actually cause fatigue, um the brain fog. It can affect your motivation. um definitely impacts your ability to sleep. So even though you could be very tired, you might have a very hard time falling asleep.

25:15.51

Rachael Schmitz 

um Some of that could actually be from some of the depression. So you kind of start down a rabbit hole, so to speak, where you're starting to think about one thing and then it kind of jumps to something else. And then before you know it, it's an hour and a half later and you're still just lying in bed trying to fall asleep.

25:36.50

Jonathan Guerrero

So, Shauna, from a mental health standpoint, if a dad's really battling some of the symptoms from this and it's just wreaking havoc in his home life, wreaking havoc in his marriage, what do you tell a dad like that?

25:55.93

Jonathan Guerrero

So Rachel gave a really great description of the biological impact of what's happening. And I think that it's helpful to like put that in the context of what that looks like in your daily life.

26:08.54

Jonathan Guerrero

If you've had like this really lovely time with your partner leading up to having this baby and everything just feels like so wonderful and you're able to run your own schedule and you go to work and you go to the gym and you go to grocery shop, like...

26:24.70

Jonathan Guerrero

your Your life has this lovely routine to it, and it's one you've created with your partner. it just is like the best feeling. like And if you've had this for two, three, four, five years together, it just can feel really great. And then if you think about this, you have this little person into this who sleeps in 90-minute to three-hour segments at a time, who's crying constantly, demanding attention. Is it a diaper change? Is it hungry?

26:55.26

Jonathan Guerrero

Is it hurting? Is it cold? Is it hot? Does it need something? Does it need to be walked? It wants to be walked all the time. So if you think about that, that's a little adrenaline surges all the time that's happening.

27:07.06

Jonathan Guerrero

And then you add in... Well, something at work didn't go right or the partner snapped at me because they're tired and didn't sleep well. So now you add additional adrenaline surges. So what you've done is you've just created this environment that is ah put ah the couple, the dad into fight flight. He doesn't know what he's doing right. He doesn't know what he's doing wrong. He's confused most of the time. And that's actually a really great setup for somebody, anybody to experience depression.

27:45.02

Jonathan Guerrero

When a man's in the thick of PPPD, he often lacks the vocabulary to explain his pain. What are the three starter phrases a dad can use to tell his partner that he's struggling without feeling like he's burdening her further?

28:00.15

Rachael Schmitz 

Um, probably the, my most, um, preferred way is just to kind of not make the assumption that because, um he's a new dad, that everything is going well.

28:18.42

Rachael Schmitz 

Um, Meaning people kind of make an assumption that when you're a new dad, you know they assume that everything's great and the baby's great and the baby's sleeping and mom's great and you guys are getting along great and everything is going wonderful. And I think just kind of um one of the things that I have found to be most effective is making room for things not to be okay. So instead of approaching it from um a stance of, um is there something wrong or, you know, I'm just going to pretend that there's nothing wrong. I think kind of just going in and just saying, you know, validating that experience and the difficulty of it.

29:00.25

Rachael Schmitz 

And I know we've talked a little bit about the sleep deprivation and the role change and the depressive symptoms, but just kind of assuming that, you know, maybe things are not going well and just kind of opening that door to say, you know, how are things going? You know, what are you struggling with? How can I help you? Is there anything I can do to help you? um i think just kind of allowing people to, I'm sure a lot of people might not feel comfortable with really being, you know, brutally honest, I guess it depends who asks you. But I do think that just kind of opening that door and not assuming that everything is going wonderful, um just kind of acknowledging the difficulty of that transition for some people might be enough for them to kind of open up and maybe share and be honest about how things are or what they're struggling with.

29:55.14

Jonathan Guerrero

Sean, in the heat of exhaustion, a partner might seek but might see the dad's withdrawal as laziness or dishonest. how can a Or even there's a disinterest.

30:04.95

Rachael Schmitz 

Coco. coco

30:07.58

Jonathan Guerrero

How can a spouse identify PPPD in their partner without sounding like they are accusing him of being a bad father? And we have some moms in the audience that do listen, so this question might be more for them.

30:26.90

Jonathan Guerrero

So I think anytime you introduce a new topic, it can often feel like accusation. So these things are really helpful to start talking about beforehand. um Otherwise, whenever you approach something, I really love the mental health first aid approach, which is where you notice, observe, and share them in as gently ah and consider it a way as possible. I've noticed that this is... that you're sleepier. I noticed that you seem to be shut down more. I noticed that you don't seem to be as interested in time with me or the baby. Things like that, if you can share it from an observation or that thinks things are different, can be helpful in discussing it.

31:13.24

Jonathan Guerrero

um But it's really great to do like preventative conversations where you kind of normalize those conversations ahead of time.

31:23.86

Rachael Schmitz 

Also, i i would also add to that too, is just kind of finding the things that are going well and maybe just, you know, kind of like that that proverbial sandwich where, you know, it's like a positive thing and then maybe an area that that maybe is not going well and then ended on a positive note. So, you know, maybe finding for the mom who might be frustrated, maybe finding something that dad's doing really well.

31:53.88

Rachael Schmitz 

and pointing that out. And then maybe just saying, you know, it would be very easy, or it would make my life a lot easier if you were able to get up, you know, once in the middle of the night to help me with the 2am feed or finding ways as a couple to try to work through the situation together.

32:15.00

Rachael Schmitz 

um i i would say that that would be probably optimal.

32:22.65

Jonathan Guerrero

We know that a father's mental health directly impacts a child's development. If a dad is listening now and he is not ready to seek help for himself, can you explain the return on investment his child receives when dad finally decides to get healthy?

32:43.75

Rachael Schmitz 

And so one of the things that I've noticed in looking at the research um more recently is there seems to be quite a bit of research coming out um within the last year that points to some of the um long-term impacts for the children who had parents that were depressed.

33:03.68

Rachael Schmitz 

And um so they're finding that there's actually quite a bit of um implications for those kids as they grow older um in terms of academic um issues or potentially some um behavioral issues that come up down the line, not to say or to, you know, provide any shame whatsoever, but, you know, if if dad doesn't want to get help for himself, um, focusing it on the potential impact of the child would be a great place to start.

33:40.82

Rachael Schmitz 

Um, I don't really know any parent that wouldn't do something if it meant that it would be more beneficial for their child down the line. So I think that's one of the things that keeps coming up into the, um,

33:54.81

Rachael Schmitz 

in the perinatal and postpartum mental health is that, you know, they're kind of looking at how is this impacting the child after birth? And they are finding that some of the outcomes are pointing to areas where if the dad was able to get some help now, that those potentially would have really positive outcomes for his children down the line.

34:20.06

Jonathan Guerrero

Shana, would you what would you tell somebody that's sitting in your office needing help with this? So as I was thinking about what Rachel was saying, The thought came to mind that um most often if a parent has anxiety or depression, eventually a child will end up getting some sort of treatment for some type of mental health disorder.

34:44.57

Jonathan Guerrero

And i really like this description and I can't think of the author right now, but it said like if a child is getting help, they're getting help one hour per week.

34:44.99

Rachael Schmitz 

Mm-hmm.

34:54.81

Jonathan Guerrero

If the parent is getting help too, the child is now in an environment where the entire week, is being transformed. Their entire environment is being transformed to being one that's more healthy for the child to grow in. And so that's kind of how I would conceptualize it.

35:10.52

Jonathan Guerrero

If you're asking the child to get better, they're going to go and they're going to get one hour of support. But if the parent is willing to do the work, they're going to create an environment where the child can thrive every day of the week.

35:22.94

Rachael Schmitz 

I love that Shoshana. And also, you know, it kind of, as a parent, it's one of those things that, you know, when that child gets older, you know, that's something that you can kind of bring to that conversation later, um much later when they're old enough to understand that. And really, i mean, I can't think of a more powerful example of um growth is for a father to say, hey, I struggled with this and, you know, I got some assistance and it really helped me um that really takes a lot of the shame away from um this issue, which, you know, mental health and shame seem to coexist. But it kind of takes a lot of the power, I guess, away from that.

36:11.00

Rachael Schmitz 

If you had a dad that's um brave enough to say, you know, I struggled with this and I got some help. um What a wonderful lesson for your child someday. Yeah.

36:24.27

Jonathan Guerrero

How can parents listening reach out to both of you with any questions or helpful resources?

36:32.82

Rachael Schmitz 

So I um currently teach at ah Coastal Carolina University. And anybody that wanted to um talk to me more, learn a little bit more about the research that I'm doing, I can be reached at rschmitz at coastal.edu.

36:54.78

Jonathan Guerrero

And I'm Shoshana Guerrero. I have a private practice and you can reach me at sguerrero.lmft at gmail.com. And just to make things easier, if you go to thefatherhoodchallenge.com, that's thefatherhoodchallenge.com.

37:12.02

Jonathan Guerrero

If you go to this episode and you are looking for the episode title,

37:20.57

Jonathan Guerrero

The Silent Crisis. The Silent Crisis. Look for that episode title. Go right below the episode description and I'm going to have all of the links posted right there for your convenience.

37:33.69

Jonathan Guerrero

A huge, huge thank you to Dr. Rachel Schmitz and Dr. Shoshana Guerrero for their expertise and for giving us the vocabulary to talk about the unspoken heavy lift of fatherhood. For those listening to this episode over radio, if you want to find it, you can listen just so you can listen or share it with others.

37:53.91

Jonathan Guerrero

You can visit thefatherhoodchallenge.com. That's thefatherhoodchallenge.com. Look for the episode called The Silent Crisis, or you can find it on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or any other major podcast listening app.

38:08.89

Jonathan Guerrero

until na Until next time, take a deep breath, give yourself some grace, and remember, the strongest thing you can do is turn towards the light.

38:19.37

Jonathan Guerrero

We'll see in the next episode.

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