Summary

In this episode, Byron and his guests, Elizabeth Dahl and Kaeley Triller Harms, discuss the rising tide of Christian Nationalism in the Pacific Northwest, focusing on the influence of figures like Doug Wilson. They explore the way Wilson and other Christian leaders in this movement are using their positions of authority to manipulate followers into accepting a toxic teaching that demonizes empathy. They explore the potential for abuse within authoritarian, high-control religious institutions, as well as the impact of Christian Nationalist leadership on church communities throughout the region and the country.

Cults and Christian Nationalism Discussion

Byron introduces Elizabeth and Kaeley for a discussion on cults and Christian nationalism. Elizabeth, a staff member at Braver Angels, explains that the organization works to depolarize political culture by facilitating healthy conversations between people with differing views. Kaeley introduces herself as a writer, activist, and women's advocate living in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. Acknowledging the complexity of the topic, Kaeley and Elizabeth begin by defining what they mean by "Christian Nationalism," distinguishing this specific movement in Northeastern Washington and Idaho from the way the term is sometimes (erroneously in their view) used to disparage Christian Conservative thought. Kaeley highlights the threat of this Christian Nationalism movement, which, she says, is seeking to save America by turning it into a literal theocracy. Elizabeth points out that for these Christian Nationalists’ approach to faith is highly legalistic and restrictive, much like cult. Elizabeth then takes a moment to clarify how she defines a cult, since the word is often misapplied. She offers a definition of cult drawn from the University of Texas website to clarify that she and Kaeley are using the word cult in a grounded and precise way.

Doug Wilson’s Influence in Elizabeth's Upbringing

Elizabeth also has personal direct experience with Doug Wilson’s brand of Christianity from growing up in an environment influenced by his teachings. She describes being homeschooled in an evangelical setting where Wilson's books and fundamentalist ideas became popular during her teenage years. Elizabeth explains that while her immediate family and church were not fundamentalist, she was exposed to these beliefs through social circles and her homeschool teachers. She provides examples of the strict dress codes and modesty standards practiced by some of her fundamentalist friends, illustrating the extent of their beliefs and practices.

The Misuse of Empathy

Having laid the above foundations, the conversation turns toward the so-called "the sin of empathy," which is currently gaining popularity on the political right. Kaeley shares about her experiences with the Doug Wilson tribe, and describes them as a cult-like high-control group. She highlights Wilson's influence in the broader Christian world, including his involvement in homeschooling curriculum and his connections with prominent Christian figures. Elizabeth and Kaeley discuss empathy and its real potential for misuse. They concede that empathy can be used as a tool to manipulate people. In the political sphere, for example, people’s natural empathy may be exploited to get them to agree with a particular set of policies. In domestic violence situations, abusers often use their victims’ empathy as a means to control them.

Christian Nationalist Leadership vs. Jesus’ Leadership

Elizabeth describes the leadership style within Christian Nationalism, in contrast to the teachings of Jesus. She argues that Christian Nationalism seeks power and control, rather than ways to be of service to others, and often prioritizes the reputation of the church over the well-being of its members. Kaeley shares her concerns about the language used by some Christian Nationalists, such as Doug Wilson, and how it contradicts the teachings of Jesus. Byron emphasizes that the influence of Christian Nationalist figures is growing rapidly and gaining traction with the emerging culture of hypermasculinity.

Christian Nationalism and Masculinity

Throughout the conversation, issues around the way Christinal Nationalism supports and draws on extreme, even “toxic” expressions of masculinity which emphasize control, especially of women, as a supposed Christian virtue. Byron offers a stedfast contrast to this ideology in his recognition and embodiment of the fact that true masculinity is able to be gentle and sensitive, and does not require a sense of control to be strong. Elizabeth and Kaeley share their experiences with gender roles and expectations. Both have lived experiences of transgressing traditional expectations of feminine women. The group agrees to have a future discussion about gender issues, with Kaeley noting she can speak to the harm caused by right-wing views on gender roles. They conclude by emphasizing the importance of empathy, with Elizabeth stating that denying empathy goes against traditional Christianity and Christ's teachings

Links-

Straight White American Jesus podcast- A 2 part deep dive into Joe Rigney’s book “the sin of Empathy”

Scene on Radio with John Biewen covers the complexity of this subject nicely on his scene on radio podcast series season 3- Men

Universiy of Texas page on the psychology of cults

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