The upEND Podcast

How can we support survivors of domestic violence and their children without the child welfare system? 

State intervention often forces survivors into impossible choices: remain in a harmful situation to keep their children or engage with a legal system that might use their trauma as evidence of an unstable home.

In this episode, we sit down with Ashley De Anna Albert, an abolitionist, writer, and survivor of intimate partner violence whose children were taken by CPS. Ashley has transformed her own pain into powerful advocacy through Stolen Children’s Month and her work leading healing justice circles that remind us no family is disposable.

Together, we talk about how survivors are punished instead of supported, how the family policing system connects to other forms of systemic violence, and what it means to imagine a future where survivors are met with care, resilience, and community, instead of surveillance and separation.

About Our Guest: 

Ashley De Anna Albert is an abolitionist working to dismantle the family policing system and its ties to mass incarceration. Through her advocacy, writing, and healing justice circles, she uplifts the voices of parents impacted by child removal and challenges the racialized harms of foster care, adoption, and termination of parental rights. Her work centers on building community-based alternatives rooted in care, resilience, and the belief that no family is disposable. 

Episode Notes: 

• Support the work of upEND: upendmovement.org/donate
• Episode Transcript: upendmovement.org/podcast/episode305
• Read “Reclaiming Safety”: upendmovement.org/safety 
• Learn more about the campaign to Repeal CAPTA.
• Read “Owning Your Story, Claiming Your Power” by Ashley Albert. 
• Learn more about Stolen Children’s Month, the annual movement in June honoring families separated by family policing and other carceral systems. 
• Learn more about Ashley’s work as the founder of Intuned Consulting. 

“Parents who use drugs, we're at the bottom of the totem pole.”

We explore what real safety looks like for families when a parent uses substances. Stigma, shame, and anti-Blackness shape the way families are treated by the family policing system, but community centered care can save lives and families. 

Together, we imagine a world where families impacted by substance use are met with compassion, resources, and community support rather than punishment and surveillance.

About Our Guest: 

Dinah Ortiz has been working on behalf of people who use drugs and pregnant and parenting people for over two decades. She has spent much of that time at a Well renowned holistic public defense organization as a parent advocate, supervisor, trainer for incoming Attorneys pre bar, Social workers and as an internal thought leader on harm reduction. She serves as a board member for the North Carolina Survivors Union (NCSU) and is a current member of the leadership team for the National Survivors’ Union (NSU). She has sat on advisory boards for work supporting federal rural overdose response grantees, and currently for the Albert Einstein College of Medicine IMPOWR-me project as a board member. Coming out of direct parent representation for over a decade Dinah slowly came to understand there was something missing in the representation of marginalized parents who use drugs (our voice.) She has appeared on hundreds of panels globally sharing the challenges created by the child regulation system and its disproportionate targeting of marginalized communities and communities of color. She helped adapt and develop a storytelling model for people who use drugs—helping people work through their own experiences so there is space for reflection where stigma has been internalized, as well as equipping people to share their stories to disrupt larger narratives.

Episode Notes: 

• Support the work of upEND: upendmovement.org/donate

• Episode Transcript: upendmovement.org/podcast/episode304/ 

• Read “Reclaiming Safety for Children Whose Parents Use Substances” by Kassandra Frederique, Dinah Ortiz, and Mark Z. 

• Dinah mentions a segment about moms using marijuana on the Tyra Banks show. 

• Learn more about the North Carolina Survivor’s Union and the National Survivor’s Union. 

• Dinah mentions Movement for Family Power’s Movement Map. 

If we abolish the family policing system, how do we respond to child sexual abuse? Abolition helps us create a world where all children are safe and supported by their communities. We’re addressing the problem, not just sweeping it under the rug. 

We speak with award-winning journalist and author Roxanna Asgarian about her essay “Reclaiming Safety for Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse.” Roxanna explores how the current carceral response to child sexual harm—rooted in punishment, separation, and shame—fails survivors and perpetuates cycles of trauma. 

Together, we discuss what safety and accountability can look like outside of prisons, foster care, and family policing. Drawing from her reporting and lived experience, Roxanna invites us to imagine community-based pathways to healing that honor survivors, hold those who harm accountable, and build the conditions where safety is possible for everyone.

About Our Guest: 

Roxanna Asgarian is a Texas-based journalist and the author of We Were Once a Family: A Story of Love, Death, and Child Removal in America, which won the 2023 National Book Critics Circle Award for Nonfiction, the Andrew Carnegie Medal for Excellence in Nonfiction, and the L.A. Times Book Prize. Her reporting has appeared in The Washington Post, Texas Monthly, and New York Magazine. A survivor of child sexual harm, Roxanna has spent years covering stories at the intersections of child welfare, justice, and community care—centering the voices of those most impacted by family separation and systemic neglect.

Episode Notes: 

• Support the work of upEND: upendmovement.org/donate

• Episode Transcript: upendmovement.org/podcast/episode303/ 

• Read “Reclaiming Safety for Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse” by Roxanna Agarian. 

• Connect with Roxanna’s work at RoxannaAsgarianWrites.com and read her award-winning book, We Were Once a Family.

• Roxanna discusses Hidden Water Healing Circles and Freedom Community Center.

• Explore the Reclaiming Safety series: upendmovement.org/safety

  
  

Credits: 

• Hosted by Josie Pickens and Jaison Oliver

• Produced by Sydnie Dan’el Mares

• Mixed by Imani Crosby

The family policing system considers parents with mental health issues and other disabilities to be an inherent threat to their children. We reject that premise. 

Because of ableism, the legacy of eugenics, and the violence of poverty, disabled parents face a high risk of separation by the family policing system. 

In this episode, Dr. Robyn Powell discusses how the child welfare system weaponizes the idea of “predictive neglect” to discriminate against parents with disabilities and further enshrine stigma around mental health. 

How can we build a future where disabled families are supported through care, community, and trust—not surveillance and punishment? 

Reclaiming Safety is upEND’s exploration of frequently asked questions about family policing abolition. This discussion about disability justice is an accompaniment to the essay Reclaiming Safety for Children of Parents with Disabilities by Charisa Smith. 

About Our Guest: 

Dr. Robyn Powell is an Assistant Professor of Law at Stetson University College of Law and a Senior Research Associate at the Lurie Institute for Disability Policy at Brandeis University. Her work focuses on disability law, reproductive justice, family regulation, and constitutional law, with a special emphasis on the rights of disabled parents and the abolition of the family policing system.

She is the principal author of the National Council on Disability’s landmark report Rocking the Cradle, Ensuring the Rights of Parents with Disabilities and Their Children, and her scholarship—featured in leading law reviews and interdisciplinary journals—examines how law and policy continue to reinforce ableism and the legacy of eugenics.

Episode Notes: 

• Support the work of upEND: upendmovement.org/donate

• Episode Transcript: upendmovement.org/podcast/episode301/ 

• Read Reclaiming Safety: upendmovement.org/safety 

• Dr. Powell recommends people learn more about disability justice through Sins Invalid and the Disability Visibility Project.

• Connect with Dr. Powell at Stetson Law.

  
  

Credits: 

• Hosted by Josie Pickens and Jaison Oliver

• Produced by Sydnie Mares

• Mixed by Imani Crosby

Welcome to Season 3 of The upEND Podcast where we’ll be answering all of your burning questions about family policing abolition!

If we get rid of the child welfare system, what will happen when children are harmed? Are abolitionists saying that child abuse is okay? 

Reclaiming Safety is upEND’s new anthology series answering important, frequently asked questions and proposing effective, humane responses to crises that occur in our communities. To introduce the series, we talk to the editor of Reclaiming Safety, Angela Burton. 

About Our Guest: 

Angela Burton is a renowned community lawyer, scholar, and public servant with over thirty years of experience advocating for the rights of parents and children in the family policing system, commonly known as the child welfare system. Her commitment to social justice is driven by a deep understanding of the systemic inequities faced by vulnerable families. Angela has consistently fought to protect the human, constitutional, and civil rights of marginalized individuals, ensuring their voices are heard, their experiences valued, and their expertise centered in catalyzing and implementing change.

Episode Notes: 

• Support the work of upEND: upendmovement.org/donate

• Episode Transcript: upendmovement.org/podcast/episode301/ 

• Read Reclaiming Safety: upendmovement.org/safety 

• Angela mentions the Repeal CAPTA campaign.

• Angela co-wrote an article with Angeline Montauban called “Toward Community Control of Child Welfare Funding: Repeal the Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act and Delink Child Protection from Family Well-Being.”

• Angela cites the work of MJ Maleeka Jihad, Narrowing the Front Door, JMAC for Families, and Parents Supporting Parents.

• Connect with Angela on LinkedIn and Instagram. 

  
  

Credits: 

• Hosted by Josie Pickens and Jaison Oliver

• Produced by Sydnie Mares

• Mixed by Imani Crosby

Welcome to the Season 2 Finale! 

Reproductive justice has always been the foundation of upEND’s work to abolish the family policing system. Both movements focus on bodily autonomy and our human right to keep ourselves and our children safe from oppressive systems.

That’s why we wanted to speak with Ash Williams, a Black trans abortion doula, storyteller, community organizer, and public intellectual from Fayetteville, Nc.

We talk about gender affirming care, abortion doula trainings, and how abolitionist work means providing support and care to one another outside of the system. 

Episode Notes:

• Support the work of upEND: upendmovement.org/donate

• Episode Transcript

• Watch Ash’s panel at upEND’s 2023 Convening.

• Learn more about the Carolina Abortion Fund. 

• Ash discusses the death of a child in North Carolina, which is a reproductive justice issue. 

• Learn more about the Mountain Area Abortion Doula Collective. 

• Ash recommends learning about organizations like We Testify.

• Follow Ash Williams on Instagram, @ashwilliamsclt.

The foster system has more than double the representation of LGBTQ youth than the general population. And LGBTQ youth of color have significantly greater odds of being in the foster system compared to white LGBTQ youth. When marginalized identities intersect across race, gender, and sexuality, we see the harms of the family policing system become compounded. 

As a young person, our guest experienced the these systems of oppression and has valuable insights that can help us understand beyond the statistics. 

Content Warning: 

This episode features conversations around child sexual abuse. 

About Our Guest:

Nalo Zidan is a philosopher, accountability strategist and masculinity scholar who seeks to challenge the landscapes of how we engage gender, community and justice. From intentional, thought-provoking content to training community organizations, Nalo continues to invite us all to consider implementing community concepts above policing and disposal. Nalo’s next project,  The Adult Preschool, seeks to imagine necessary lessons to connect adult experiences with how to practice community together. This virtual project will offer lessons we deserved to learn as young people; lessons that can change how we see the world and each other.

Episode Notes: 

• Support the work of upEND: upendmovement.org/donate

• Episode Transcript

• Follow @nalodarling on Instagram. 

• On the Bad People Podcast, Nalo shares lessons on the complexities of being, the magic of community praxis, and the transformative power of accountability.

Schools have become sites of policing and surveillance that mirror the criminal legal system. To address this, we need to understand what our guest calls the “school-to-prison nexus,” the intersecting web of racist, carceral systems that criminalize our youth.

We discuss the history of organizing against the school-to-prison pipeline and how the call for “Counselors Not Cops” needs an abolitionist framework to succeed. We also highlight important wins from decades-long fights like the recent vote to end the school resource office (SRO) program in Chicago Public Schools.

Episode Guest:

Erica Meiners is a writer, educator and organizer. Their recent books include For the Children? Protecting Innocence in a Carceral State, a co-edited anthology The Long Term: Resisting Life Sentences, Working Towards Freedom, and the co-authored *Feminist and the Sex Offender: Confronting Sexual Harm, Ending State Violence* as well as 2022’s Abolition. Feminism. Now. Most importantly, Erica has collaboratively started and works alongside others in a range of ongoing mobilizations for liberation, particularly movements that involve access to free public education for all, including people during and after incarceration, and other queer abolitionist struggles. They are a member of Critical Resistance, the Illinois Death in Custody Project, the Prison+Neighborhood Arts and Education Project, and the Education for Liberation Network. Erica is also a sci-fi fan, an avid runner, and a lover of bees and cats.

Episode Notes:

• Transcript: upendmovement.org/podcast/episode-205/
• Support the work of upEND: upendmovement.org/donate
• To understand the difference between reforms and abolitionist steps to end family policing, explore our framework tool at upendmovement.org/framework
• We mention the Repeal CAPTA episode of The upEND Podcast. Learn more about the efforts to repeal the Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act at repealcapta.org
• Erica encourages people to check out the work of organizations like Critical Resistance, Dream Defenders, Movement for Family Power, and the blog Black on Both Sides.

The trauma of state-sanctioned family separations is shared by victims of immigrant detention and the family policing system (also known as the child welfare system). Additionally, immigrant detentions are so intertwined with the prison industrial complex that they are nearly the same. Abolitionists must see these systems as connected if we want to create a successful strategy to dismantle them. 

This episode was recorded in the summer of 2024 and details the detention and separation policies of presidents Obama, Trump, and Biden. We discuss the call to Abolish ICE, prisoner uniforms on babies, and policies like SB4 in Texas that are being duplicated across the country. 

Episode Guest: 

Silky Shah is the executive director of Detention Watch Network, a national coalition building power to abolish immigration detention in the US. She is also the author of the recently published book,Unbuild Walls: Why Immigrant Justice Needs Abolition (Haymarket Books, 2024). She has worked as an organizer on issues related to immigration detention, the prison industrial complex, and racial and migrant justice for over 20 years.

Episode Notes: 

• Support the work of upEND:upendmovement.org/donate

• Silky mentions the campaigns ofGrassroots Leadership andFamilies Belong Together. 

• Learn more aboutDetention Watch Network. 

• ReadUnbuild Walls by Silky Shah. 

Family separations have been used as a colonization and genocidal tactic since before the founding of America and these practices continue today. Native children are currently removed from their homes at 2–3 times the rate of white children. They are often taken away from relatives and their communities, even when those options are available.

In this episode, we’ll talk about the legacy of boarding schools and what Indigenous organizers are doing to preserve their culture and support their communities. 

About Our Guest: 

Marcella Gilbert is a member of the Oceti Sakowin-7 Council Fires known as the Great Sioux Nation.  Currently living on the Cheyenne River Indian reservation in north central South Dakota, Marcella is involved with the Standing Strong grandmothers group whose main focus is to create local action in regards to child rescue efforts. Marcella is a lifelong member and student of the American Indian Movement and We Will Remember Survival Group, a water protector, wife, and grandmother. Marcella also holds a Master's Degree in Nutrition.

Episode Notes: