Right now, in my hometown of Holyoke, Massachusetts, there is a debate underway about the meaning of America. Or at least that’s how my friend Mimi Panitch, currently running for a seat on the Holyoke City Council, understands this moment.

At issue is an order proposed by Kevin Jourdain and Linda Vacon, two long-serving members of the council, that would officially declare Holyoke not to be a sanctuary city. Their rationale is simple enough: Holyoke relies on millions of dollars of federal funding, and the Trump administration has made very clear that it is willing to cut funding to communities that don’t comply with its ideological demands. Earlier this year, Elon Musk’s DOGE operation cut over $100 million in federal grant money Holyoke was expecting. So, by making clear that Holyoke will comply with federal immigration law—making clear that Holyoke is not a sanctuary city—the city council can help ensure that Holyoke won’t lose out on any more funding.

Mimi released a lengthy, impassioned, and deeply moving statement in opposition to this order. (You can read it in full here.) It read, in part:

We cannot be worthy of the best parts of our collective past if we collaborate, or cooperate, or pretend we don’t see what’s happening lest we be called upon to do something about it. We cannot invite ICE and Homeland Security, in their present incarnation, into our city to prey on our neighbors and be a cancer at the heart of our community. We cannot do this and remain who we say we want to be, and who we’ve sometimes been able to pretend to be.

I know money’s important. But, so is our sacred honor, and so are the people who make up our community, to whom we owe mutual loyalty. There are some things you don’t sell: who are you afterward, if you do?

That’s the backdrop for this conversation. I wanted to hear more of Mimi’s thoughts on Holyoke, immigration, American history, and how local communities ought to respond to demands from Washington. Topics we discussed include:

* The sanctuary city order before the Holyoke City Council

* The Trump administration’s approach to immigration and whether it’s a departure from American traditions

* The question of whether local communities can and should resist

* The economic costs of mass deportation

* Pope Francis’s letter to the American bishops opposing mass deportation

* C.S. Lewis’s insights on evil

* Building a local civic culture that fosters cooperation and goodness

A little about Mimi: She grew up in Holyoke, and she’s a graduate of Holyoke High School and the University of Chicago Law School. After practicing law in New York City, where she specialized in financial institutions and tax matters, she returned to her beloved hometown. She was appointed to the Holyoke Planning Board by Mayor Elaine Pluta in 2011 and has been reappointed by every mayor since. Today she’s the board’s chair.

Our paths first crossed in 2014 as volunteers for the Don Berwick campaign for governor. That’s a recurring theme here. In any event, she is as morally passionate— as passionately moral—a thinker and citizen as you’ll ever encounter. Agree with her or not—and, to be clear, I typically do—we should all be so lucky to have people like Mimi in our lives and in our communities. I hope you enjoy the conversation.

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