In this episode, Chip talks with Melissa Vela-Williamson of MVW Communications about her unique journey in public relations and the importance of content creation. Melissa shares her background, highlighting her non-traditional path into PR and her passion for using public relations for social good.

They discuss her focus on helping nonprofits and education clients, her role as a content creator, and her work as a columnist for the Public Relations Society of America. Melissa also delves into the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on her business and the strategic approaches she took to maintain client relationships and grow her firm.

They explore the significance of writing books and producing various types of content, emphasizing the value of building relationships and demonstrating thought leadership in the communications industry.

Melissa Vela-Williamson is an internationally recognized public relations strategist, author, PRSA national columnist, and podcast host. She is accredited in PR, is an elite PRSA Fellow, is certified in diversity and uses PR for social good through her boutique firm, MVW Communications.

The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy.
Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Chats with Chip podcast. I’m your host, Chip Griffin, the founder of SAGA, the Small Agency Growth Alliance, and I’m delighted to have with me today Melissa Vela-Williamson of MVW Communications. Welcome to the show, Melissa.

Melissa Vela-Williamson: Hey Chip, thanks for having me. I am excited.

Chip Griffin: I am very excited to have you. We’ve had a great pre-show conversation, so I know it’s gonna be a great episode. But before we dive into the topics at hand, why don’t you just share a little bit about yourself with the listeners.

Melissa Vela-Williamson: Yeah. Thank you all for tuning in, listening in. I’m thrilled to speak with Chip today about this.

I’ve been listening to many, many episodes and shows of yours, Chip for a long time now. Just getting that mentoring advice that is so helpful to us in our entrepreneur journey. So for everyone here, I own a small boutique public relations focus firm called MVW Communications. It’s our 10th year Congratulations.

So yay. Congratulations. We made a decade congratulations. Also the longest place I’ve ever worked because I am so multi-passionate, but particularly passionate about using public relations for social good. So we try to do a lot of that in our firm, in the work that we do. Serving a lot of nonprofits, education type clients or for-profits who want to help out others. And I’m also really excited to be a content creator.

I am super passionate about writing. I have been my whole career. We’ll talk about that Chip, I know in just a minute. I do a lot of content creation as a national columnist for the Public Relations Society of America. My column’s called Cultural Strategy. So I want to integrate how people think and behave and work naturally and how we do our PR practice because that just makes good sense to me and build deep relationships with people.

And I also am an author of two public relations books. Smart Talk: Public Relations Essentials All Pros Should Know, and the latest, which is an anthology, Latinas in Public Relations: Shaping Communications, Communities and Cultures. And the reason I wrote those two books is a big part of why, we’ll, what we’ll talk about here today, Chip, which is about pushing the practice forward in the industry, inviting others in, and really empowering those who are doing the work, who are coming from all kinds of backgrounds, right?

I don’t have a traditional public relations major, so I’ve learned everything kind of the hard way. And I want to make it easier for others and really encourage them that they belong in public relations. They can do very purposeful work here, and what they’re doing today can really benefit society tomorrow.

Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, and you really are a, a content powerhouse, and I definitely want to dive into that, but, but before we do, I, I’m, I’d like to touch on, on how you got into PR in the first place, because you have a little bit of an interesting story in that that’s not what you set out to do when you first went to school.

Melissa Vela-Williamson: Yeah, absolutely. And what I find over time is the more that I share it, the more helpful it is to others. Learning about our imperfect path into public relations seems to be very helpful. So if you’re like me, please do share your story because it matters particularly to aspiring prose students. Some who maybe have PR majors, but maybe have something in their personal background that they don’t feel really good about.

Right? Sometimes it’s things that we’re brought up into or things that happen to us that we don’t realize our lived experiences can be such an attribute to how we perform this work. And then also, you know, students who may be English majors, right, how many English majors are looking for really good jobs.

Public relations could be great for you. Those who are interested in business marketing, communications of all kinds, I mean really, just about any major, you can intersect that with PR and there’s probably a fit for it. So I didn’t realize that until later. I was a first, the first member of my family to go to university.

My mom was the first to go and get any kind of education beyond high school. She was, she went back later in her life after working 22 years as a cashier. And so it was very impressionable on me. I was about middle school age when I saw her, you know, go from the grocery store work she had been doing.

To help keep our family going and go after a certificate in dental hygiene. Completely different career and life shift. But her taking me to the library on weekends really spurred my love of reading and I kind of would grab every book I could, mostly about animals. So I thought I was gonna be a veterinarian, right.

Because that’s what kids put together is like, we could be veterinarians, lawyers, teachers, or doctors. Well, I’m really passionate about telling people about public relations to kind of open up another job role out there in, in people’s minds. But anyway, I thought I was gonna be a veterinarian, maybe. I knew I loved to read and then later on I was, I identified by a teacher going into ninth grade.

I was kind of a falling off the wagon educationally, right. I was bored in classes. I was probably gifted and talented, but I hadn’t been identified as such. And one teacher said, you know, I’m gonna put you in ninth grade honors English because you are a good writer.

And no one had ever told me that before.

And sometimes labels can be a really good fit for us. And so if you have that chance to identify something positive about someone, I, I really hope you take that chance to do so because it could change everything for them. So all of a sudden I put that hat on and said, okay, I’m a good writer. As I got in English Honors and I liked the competitive nature of my peers there and the kids behaved in class.

I went to some pretty tough schools growing up. And there was just a different vibe. And I really, really rose to that occasion. Went to the counselor’s office, said I want all honors. Those are my people. And that’s been the kind of individual ever since Chip, that I’ve been. So I took all the creative writing classes I could, became a published poet in high school.

Went into a small private university, followed some friends there because I was too scared to go to something larger and got a major in English Communication Arts, knowing, well, you know, I’m, I’m gonna try. Let’s see that veterinarian track, right? Let me not declare that major. I took a couple labs. I was like, this is gross. I can’t do this, and way too slow. And then I realized, oh, it’s not just playing with the puppy.

Chip Griffin: You’d rather dissect sentences than animals, right?

Melissa Vela-Williamson: Yeah. Yeah. And even still, I kind of, it’s funny, I have an innate gift for writing. But I can’t exactly tell you what’s wrong with your grammar. I just know it’s wrong.

Chip Griffin: Right, right, right.

Melissa Vela-Williamson: So kind of, I probably would’ve done that on the vet side too. So it’s a good thing I didn’t go that path. But I’ve been able to do a lot of fun things with animals in my career. You know, I’ve done marketing and PR for beluga whales and horses and, you know, dogs and cats who need homes and I mean, that’s really fun.

But that’s what PR has, has been for me, is a way to pull in all the things I’m passionate about as a person and find a way that was more sustainable of a career to, to pursue them. So long story short, in my university experience, it took me those four and a half years to figure out what I was gonna do for a career option, majoring in English and communication and kind of best of both worlds, right?

The literature and creativity with actual grammar and all that stuff, the technical stuff. And my last senior semester, my semester of my senior year, we had a capstone class and we all had to introduce what job we wanted and we did research on it. And so I talked about being an advertising copywriter because that’s all I could figure out what to do with my passion for writing.

You know, my, like of marketing, I’d done a marketing internship at a theme park and that was fun, but it was kind of, you know, soulless. I needed something deeper. But then a peer presented on her internship and her desire to work in public relations, and I had never really thought about PR. I had never considered it.

We had one class in my university experience and it was more historical. Right. PT Barnum and that kind of story. And I just didn’t connect with it in an applied sense. But when the student talked about her internship in public relations and how they literally had helped people missing arms and legs, learn how to water ski and empowered them in that way.

And then she showed the newspaper and her article that she had worked on a journalist with, and it was published. I was like, that sounds so cool. Like that sounds like it matters. It sounds like marketing. It sounds like writing. There’s photography in it. That was a passion of mine too. And there’s so much I can do with that.

So I thought that sounded a good way to pay off my private university loans, a little more sustainable of a career because there’s very few copywriting jobs and, you know, marketing jobs are tougher, at that time. And, public relations is, has been, you know, my passion since. So I actually took, the first job I can get, which I always tell new grads to do, is like anything near communications, just get employed.

You’ll be more desirable if you’re employed.

Chip Griffin: Right.

Melissa Vela-Williamson: So I took a small grant writing job right out of school, to just start paying off my loans, but I kept looking for public relations roles. And back then it was like the newspaper, right? And the classifieds. But, my mom had taught me, she was very resourceful and she said, look, I don’t know people who work in your industry, but I do know, talk to everyone about what you want to do.

Somebody’s gonna know somebody. And I’m so thankful she did say that because I told my spin instructor, I went through this big weightloss journey in my college years. Kind of went the opposite route, like dropped a hundred pounds versus gained the freshman 15. Right, right. Either way, that really shaped who I was and how I see things as a person.

But that experience also led me to PR because I lost weight in that spin class. And the spin instructor, I was talking to him one day and said, I really want to work in public relations. I took this little, you know, grant writing job. It’s not really for me, but you know, I don’t know anybody. And he said, well, that’s funny. My wife owns a PR firm. You should talk to her. She hires freelancers. I said, oh, okay. So he gave me her phone number and I was brave and I called her and, and she said, yeah, you know, you can moonlight for me. And I said,

Chip Griffin: great.

Melissa Vela-Williamson: What’s moonlighting?

Chip Griffin: Right?

Melissa Vela-Williamson: I always like to throw that term out there just in case someone like runs into it.

Right. I want to define things as much as I can, and so

Chip Griffin: I think these days, everybody just calls it a side hustle, I think. Right? Your side hustle, the term moonlighting has disappeared and it’s been replaced by side hustle.

Melissa Vela-Williamson: Yeah. I like to just, you know, be a little old school and vintage with it.

Chip Griffin: Absolutely.

Absolutely. I’m with you on that.

Melissa Vela-Williamson: So I was like, you know, like Uber right side. Okay. Contract work. So that’s what’s cool is like, now we have different models of doing that in our economy, but back then, you know, this is like 2002. Not really. So…

Chip Griffin: Now it’s very common. I, I know a lot of kids who come outta college, including my oldest son, who, you know, they go straight into contracting as opposed to, you know, when, when we were out there in the workforce at first, you know, that was a very unusual thing to do until you had a fair amount of experience.

Melissa Vela-Williamson: Yes. And I think it’s very valuable if we teach young people how to be freelancers how to contract because they may not find, and often I tell them, Hey, you’re not gonna find that dream job right outta college. And you may need to make your own income and you can. And of course if you have a traditional employment, you know you have a traditional job, that’s great, but what if you lose it?

Right. So learning that skill’s always valuable. So I teach my interns, my apprentices, anyone who works for me how to contract.

Because I find that so valuable for them. So it was for me, I did that on top of my full-time grant writing job. Within two months I was offered full-time employment in public relations, and I said, yes, jumped in, never looked back. But that first firm I worked at in-house public relations is what it was called at the time, was two owners and me. So it was very close to the business I have now: boutique, focused and agile, and I really value that in the work I do today.

Chip Griffin: And so, so you’ve been really charting your own personal path professionally from, from a very early stage, which, which I think is great and, and a great lesson for others to take away as well, that, you know, there’s not a, a straight line linear path that you always have to take.

Yeah. And, you know, take advantage of opportunities, look for serendipity, and follow your passions as, as much as you can. You know, as long as you’re still making a living doing it. So, you know, I, I, I think you’ve, you’ve touched on obviously that the, you know, you very early on you discovered that you were a good writer, that you had creativity.

Those are tremendous skills to have in the communications world, in the agency world, but I think that that one of the underappreciated things, and one of the things that a lot of agency owners probably don’t focus enough on because they’re so busy heads down for clients, is how they can build the reputation of their agency, build their own personal brand, demonstrate thought leadership.

And, and I obviously am a, a huge advocate of that. And you’ve lived that. You’ve demonstrated the power of it. And, and as we touched on very early on in this episode, you are a content powerhouse. So I want to touch on that, and, you know, at what point did you decide that this was something you needed to be doing?

In a substantial, meaningful way in order to grow your business. And so how did you get started with that?

Melissa Vela-Williamson: Yeah, I would say it was 2020 when the pandemic hit and it really shook up everything in everyone’s lives. It really shook mine. I had a fifth grader who went on spring break, didn’t get to go back.

I had a kindergarten boy, very active little boy, that went to spring break and couldn’t go back. And the leadership, I had to demonstrate for my clients like double that for home. Because really everyone’s like, what are we gonna do? And so thank goodness for public relations work and being able to really predict what, what might be coming next and seeing the patterns.

And I realized, hey, these rolling school dates of when they’re gonna close and when they might open, this is emotionally hitting the kids harder, and me harder than, than what I imagine. So we’re gonna say until further notice on that and then realign how we think about life. And for our clients like, I was supporting Meals on Wheels in my market area.

They were all of a sudden serving the most vulnerable client, you know, on the planet, right? A home bound senior citizen. It all of a sudden it was just tremendous pressure. And during that time, I also realized the best thing I could do is keep myself steady so that I could be a good advisor for my family and for my clients and my friends.

And so I did a lot of self work. And during that time I realized I better virtually put myself out there.

Because I can’t go to all the PRSA and the Marketing Association and the Advertising Federation and the chamber events that I was used to going. Right. Because most of our work is referrals.

Most of our work is organic in that they want to trust us and know us, which means they often would like to meet us and conversate with us. And there’s repeated touch points you need to have with an individual before they might become a client. And for me, in public relations, the most natural way is building relationship with people before they’d become a client. And I saw a direct correlation when I was not at industry events, what would happen to the business, right? What the referrals would happen. Because sometimes just me being there be like, oh yes, I’ve meant to reach out to you. I have an idea, or we have a need. Something’s coming up, an anniversary’s coming, whatnot.

And so not being top of mind because I was there in proximity, I knew it was gonna be a problem in the work that we did. So I really took that time to go okay, it’s now or never for most things, right? We had no promises of life expectancy anymore. Like it really shook me hard. I was also kind of dealing with understanding an adult onset of asthma, which was kind of a terrible time to experience that with all the messaging around lungs and covid.

So yeah, life became very real to me and I said, you know what? I’m gonna go bold or go home because there’s no promises anymore. And I need to make sure that I have enough income for my family and, and what we need here and keep this house steady. And, and I realized those steps I took also helped again, the business and the client. So, I really doubled down on content creation as of 2020 because virtually there was a way to be in the room with others without physically being in the room with them. And so making sure that I was offering more advice. I did more webinars on how to communicate during turbulent times, which is still a very popular topic today.

Yep, yep. I think 2025 feels like 2020 for me. I’ll just say that and leave that there. But those principles of what good public relations is, what good, you know, humanist is like, they still matter and help today. Mm-hmm. And so I kind of doubled down on the fundamentals and the disciplines of the craft and what really stood the test of time, what was timeless in those areas.

Because that really works during chaos. And so the content I started creating was around that. And so I launched my podcast, the Smart Talk series during that time. At the same time, there were some grants for small businesses coming out, and luckily I had all my financial books in order and reports in orders that I could really try to leverage that opportunity.

So I use those grants and opportunities like that to help fund some of those new passion projects around having this podcast where I could have these conversations of depth on public relations practice, on marketing, on culture, on how to work with people and, and really elevate them versus, you know, excluding or pushing down to make our wins happen.

And those seemed to resonate with people. And it was interesting for me, like what was hitting. And then just trying to double down on topics that I thought were important, but also seemed to resonate.

 And so a lot more of the blog post creation about, okay, look, here are the newsworthy criteria, principles, and I would add a ninth, which is like, what’s trending on social, because they’ll report it just because it’s viral.

Right. So keep that in mind for good and for bad. And you know, when I was just a little more candid and commonplace about how I describe things in our world. People seem to connect with that.

 And so I offer that for you all to think about too, is like, how do you make it simple for people to understand and, and has a little more story around it.

So that really powered that. And, during 2020, the book came to my heart because I literally went to church as a strategic risk that we took as a family because my kids were so done being at home and they were so done being alone. And they said, mom, you know, can you take us to church? I mean, when your kids ask you to take ’em to church, you should probably go to church. I’m just saying. I was like, okay, but, I’m really important to you all and my clients and I, I don’t know what this asthma’s gonna do with me. So I am gonna sit in the lobby, you can go to the kids’ church. We’re all masked up. because this was still kind of height of it in 2020. And I went and I sat in the lobby, Chip and I streamed the service.

I was getting ready, so I was streaming the music while I was waiting. I said, I’ll just be here away from all these people in the auditorium, and I’m gonna pray for guidance. I realized so quickly during that year how much each word mattered. And not only what we wrote, but what we spoke. I remember, you know, when all the different policies and the advice was coming out and it’s like exactly how you messaged it mattered so much to people. And whether they believed it or not, whether they took action or not. And I was really watching all that I said, and I would notice how terms like essential mattered. Like if I could get my clients deemed as essential, and the mayor just say they’re essential. It was like some kind of title being bestowed on someone and they were able to do business. Yep. They were able to get paid, they were able to go out. So I was like, wow, look how much words matter. I always knew they mattered. Okay. So I was actually praying for mojo and optimism and advice and the right words, and I remember saying, oh, you know, getting a little spiritual with y’all, so come with me and just said, you know, God, give me the right words so that I can help influence what should happen.

 Not really knowing what was gonna happen. And I started hearing phrases and because I had this poetry and creative writer background, like when you hear something like that, it’s like those shower moments, I take ’em down, right? Yep. I say, Ooh, this could be, I don’t know, a post or a, a press material or whatnot.

And there were some times I’d hear a line from somebody, I go, Ooh, that’s great way to say that, right? Yeah. So I started hearing these little phrases, so I just started jotting ’em down on my notes app, and after I felt kind of done, I looked and I was like… I was scrolling. I said, oh my, ugh, this is a table of contents, right?

Like what do I do? And it was like literally almost like each chapter of my first book, and I found that I wanted to explain what public relations is, what isn’t, how you could work in the field, how you should be practicing today, where it needs to go tomorrow in terms of culture and DEI principles and practice.

Some new models like it was, it was wild because the last thing I needed was a new assignment. But it changed everything. Because I answered that calling and I said, yeah, in case something happens to me, I would like to document everything that’s in my head and explain it in case my kids want to follow in the practice. In case they decide they want to do something else, but they come back to PR and marketing.

It’s all the advice I would’ve given them if I had time to sit down with them and try to say, here are, you know, the hard things and all the aha moments I had in about two decades of work on the ground. Yeah. Because again, I didn’t have the major, so I made a lot of mistakes and, and they’re fun. They stick with people, but I’d like for them to leapfrog over those as they go forward.

Chip Griffin: Sure. One of the things I I’d like to drill into is something you said a moment ago, about using the content to build relationships. And I, I think that this is, this is something that, that is also underappreciated throughout all businesses, as we think about content marketing and, and those kinds of things.

So often I hear people talk about, you know, creating lead magnets and talking about funnels and all of that kind of thing. But really in the agency world, we’re trying to build relationships with potential new clients. And that is a, it is a fundamentally different way of thinking about it as opposed to just thinking about how do I get as many eyeballs, as many email addresses, et cetera.

And so let’s talk for a minute about how you, how you’re creating this content in a way that you’re using it to build relationships. So is that something that you’re doing strategically? Is it something that you sort of discovered along the way that that’s what it was doing? So let’s talk about that relationship piece to the puzzle.

Melissa Vela-Williamson: Yeah. I think for me I realized it was helping others based on the reactions, like, and that was what I think my heart wanted. Right. And I, I really think about PR being such a helping career. And, and much like you, I’m like, if someone wants to talk with me and ask me a question. Why not? Absolutely.

Who knows where it’ll go, right? Yep. Who knows, who they’ll be in a few years where I’ll be in a few years and we can all help each other and be a part of my circle and network. And my content is a way that I could scale answering questions and giving advice and sharing a point of view, because I did realize that sometimes just Chip you and I could say the same exact phrase.

But just because of what I look like and my background, where I live geographically, my experiences, someone might hear that differently or perceive it differently. Absolutely. Than they would from you and vice versa.

And I realized that mattered and the representation also seemed to matter very much for people.

Again, I could be on this show today and there may not be a strategic intention of, there’s an avatar and you want to reach this person, or who knows who will pick this up based on your guess.

But the feedback, I would get people who would send me a message in LinkedIn if they were even brave enough to do so and they didn’t know one of us.

Right. It seemed to be from a lot of women, a lot of women like me who were Hispanic or Latina, who were kind of shyly or quietly saying, I’m so glad you said something. I’m so glad I heard from you. I’m so glad you talked about, you know, you made mistakes. You talked about that you don’t have a major. You talk about that you don’t speak Spanish, because that’s an expectation in our culture, which makes it very hard for Latinas to practice PR with as much confidence, I think, as peers sometimes, right?

Whether you should or shouldn’t speak Spanish and how much and pressure to do your work in two languages is quite incredible. And I just want to leave that there for people to think about. Which led me to book two because I kept kind of getting bubbling up for me. Yep. So sometimes a topic, a phrase, a comment, feedback will bubble up for you, keep coming up and you go, I’m noticing this a lot. Maybe I need to dig into this further or, or really research what’s behind it or, you know, what’s the challenge here? And those are my best pieces of content, whether it’s an interview or a story I told, or a webinar or a workshop. It’s what I’m actually just saying the things that people are saying back to me.

It’s like us with marketing, right? We’re like, oh my God, I love, yeah. I say that all the time. We connect to it. Yep. And I think we need to think about our PR practice that way. So I think it, I was learning by doing, and then I did more intentionally from there.

 And I try to do that way, but I will tell you.

Especially about books because a lot of people will ask me about writing books, and there’s a misconception that you write a book and that book’s gonna make you a lot of money. Well, it could, but not in the way you might think. Right?

Chip Griffin: But not directly. Almost, almost nobody, except for a handful of bestselling authors actually make money writing the books.

It’s the other doors that it opens.

Melissa Vela-Williamson: That’s right. For you. It’s the positioning, it’s the credibility. Even telling people, I was working on a book, they were like, Ooh, and all of a sudden they could hear me better.

Right? And or they followed advice of mine better, and that’s everything in our work. So I said, well, this is incredible.

Okay. So I started that first book journey for me, and then really, all books should be for us, right? Yeah. So what is your goals behind it? So using those planning skills, strategic communication, planning skills to say what are my actual goals around writing this book or starting this podcast or having a vlog or this, you know, whatever it is that takes your time as a business owner, I think that really matters.

And positioning, setting myself apart, making sure I was in the room, like I said, with people when I couldn’t be or didn’t want to be. Right. Right. I, I’m a working mother. My kids have aerials and soccer and theater and they have their own little successful lives coming, so I’m here for it and I want to be here for it.

So I think that’s part of it too, is that this work, anything you document can live beyond you. And certainly a book has such credibility around it that when I give someone it for free, like, they’ll squeal sometimes they’re like, yay. You know, and there’s nothing we can give out that way.

Chip Griffin: Yeah.

And I, I think I, I think these days there are so many tools available to everybody to create content, to build those relationships, to demonstrate thought leadership, to build personal brands, and we can all lean into whatever we’re most comfortable with. It might be video, it might be podcasts, it might be books. It might be articles. It, it can be some combination of all of those for people like you and I who are crazy enough to say, Hey, let’s just do it all. Let’s have fun.

Melissa Vela-Williamson: Let’s try see what happens.

Chip Griffin: But I, but I think the, to me, one of the, the key takeaways from this conversation is that, that there is real power in this.

And if you’re not investing in this as an agency owner, it’s something you should at the very least, take a very close look at because I think it would likely benefit your agency if you did that. For folks who, who are interested in checking out any of the content that you are producing, getting a copy of the book, listening to your podcast, checking out your articles, or maybe they just want to have a conversation with you and, and see what else they can learn as, as we’re drawing to a close here, why don’t you share a little bit about where people can find you and, and what kind of resources you have for them.

Melissa Vela-Williamson: Absolutely. Well, thanks again, Chip. This has been an honor of mine and I’d be happy to speak with anyone. My main website where you can find everything. Again, trying to take, let’s take care of our own houses, people, right? And make sure your website is your foundation of your communication story.

Absolutely. It’s mvw360.com and you’ll find my bio, what our firm does, and you know, links to articles, the books, the podcast, and I’d be delighted to connect with anyone and make them part of my community.

Chip Griffin: Fantastic. It is a, a great hub of information for all things about you and your firm. We will include that link in the show notes, so if you’re listening to us on the treadmill or in the car, don’t fall off.

Don’t crash. Just, just check out the link after the fact and, and you will be able to get all sorts of things. Melissa, it’s been really fantastic to have you on, you’ve, you’ve shared a lot of, of practical stories that people can apply to their own businesses and, and take those lessons away. So I, I really appreciate it and, and I appreciate you taking the time to talk with my listeners.

Melissa Vela-Williamson: Thank you so much. I encourage everyone to, to tell your story and help your firm and help your community by doing so.

Chip Griffin: Absolutely. And thank you everybody for listening, and I will see you all back on another episode very soon.