Trevor Paglen is an artist with work across experimental geography, the global surveillance state, artificial intelligence systems, and more. He has a rich history of authorship and exhibitions.

"What I want out of art is to develop ways of seeing. Things that help us see the historical moment we are living in." He is exploring our relationship to infrastructures and technologies, asking: how do the things we build change us?

Alejandro Cartagena is an accomplished artist in his own right, and he is a curator and co-founder of Fellowship Trust and Fellowship AI.

As Trevor and Alejandro work together on a collection entitled Evolved Hallucinations, we get them together for a conversation. It just might change how you see things.