“What is the goal of independent reading, and why does this goal so often get lost in instruction?”

We asked this and other questions of Hannah Schneewind. She is the author along with Jennifer Scoggin of Trusting Readers: Powerful Practices for Independent Reading (Heinemann, 2021).

We explored how to best use our limited classroom time, as well as how leaders can support this critical element of the literacy block.

You can purchase Hannah’s book here. For a full transcript of this conversation, see below or click here.

Full subscribers also have access to the video recording of this conversation, as well as the professional discussion guide for this conversation.

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Full Transcript

Matt Renwick (00:03):

Welcome to Read by Example, where teachers are leaders and leaders know literacy. That tagline is from Regie Routman's book, Read, Write, Lead, and I find that line especially appropriate for our conversation today. Our special guest is Hannah Schneewind, and she is the co-author, along with Jennifer Scoggin, of Trusting Readers: Powerful Practices for Independent Reading through Heinemann. Reading the bio in the back of the book, which is right here: Hannah Schneewind has been a teacher, staff developer, curriculum writer, keynote speaker, and national literacy consultant. Hannah's interest in student and teacher agency, and her belief in the power of books informs her work with schools. Together, Jen and Hannah are the co-creators of Trusting Readers, a group dedicated to collaborating with teachers to design literacy opportunities that invite all students to be engaged and thrive as readers and writers. Welcome, Hannah.

Hannah Schneewind (01:07):

Great. Thank you so much for having me. And I know that Jen is sorry that she's not here. She's traveling at the moment, so you'll have just me, I'm afraid.

Matt Renwick (01:17):

We are delighted to have you. And we have another guest with us, Mary Beth Nicholas, a Wisconsinite now living in Minnesota, working at an alternative school secondary level. She had been working with intervention students at the secondary level and brings a neat perspective as well to trusting readers, especially after that elementary experience. So, with that I have three questions I was going to pose to Hannah, but take the direction wherever you want it to go. And again, our intentions for this conversation are just to build knowledge and awareness around this topic, and to practice coaching skills while engaging in conversation around professional topics. So, really trying to serve as a model for any leader of any position, how you might, co-create knowledge together instead of living in sometimes these echo chambers we see in education. My first question is for Hannah: what is the goal of independent reading and why does this goal so often get lost in instruction?

Hannah Schneewind (02:26):

So the first thing I would say is that the goal of independent reading is for students to become really skilled and proficient readers. And being proficient includes being skillful with decoding, fluency, and comprehension. So the reason I think it's really important to start with that is that too often independent reading is seen as this kind of fluffy thing, or it's an add-on, or it's a thing that you do for 10 minutes at the end of the day if you have time. And so I just want to start by saying, no, this is a serious teaching and learning time. So I would say that's the big goal. And then within that goal, of course, we have lots of other things, right? We want kids to find joy in reading. We want them to have books that they connect with. We want them to find books where they can make meaning and then really are motivated to take some kind of action after they're reading.

(03:28):

I'll tell you though, I won't say that the goal of independent reading is to make students love reading, because I think when we say that, number one, we do ourselves a disservice as professionals because that seems kind of fluffy. And number two, I actually can't do that. That is to say, I can set up the condition, you know, I can give you lots of choice and I can give you the right feedback at the right time, and I can give you lots of time to read. I can set up the conditions for you to love reading, but I can't actually make you love reading. So I think, that's something I have thought a lot about. So I no longer say, the goal is for all them to love reading. They might or they might not. So, then in terms of why does it get lost?

(04:16):

I think it gets lost for a few reasons. I think it gets lost, number one, when it is not in fact the focus of reading instruction. When it becomes something to do at the end of the day or it sometimes gets lost because the teacher is trying to also work with small groups, let's say, and independent reading is something that the students can in fact do independently that she knows it's going to be really impactful. And so she ends up doing small group instruction during that time and does not confer with kids. And independent reading without conferring is not actually independent reading, such as giving kids books and letting them read. So I think those are two very different things.

Matt Renwick (05:03):

That's very helpful for me. Especially the comment about you cannot make kids love reading. It almost seems kind of refreshing that I can kind of take that part off of my responsibility, and not that I'm not responsible for the conditions, but puts more of the onus on that part of a reading right on the kids. And I think kids would rise to that trust, which comes back to your book title, Trusting Readers.

Hannah Schneewind (05:38):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for example, in high school, I became skillful at biology, right? I had a very good teacher. I did all my homework. I never loved biology. I did not decide to become a scientist. You know, so much as we hope that kids will love reading, I do think that we can separate,  being skilled at reading from necessarily the love of it. With one important caveat, which is, and Mary Beth, maybe you've seen this with older students, I have talked to older readers who are very proficient readers and actively hate reading. You know, there are kids who think reading is boring, I have to do it, my teacher makes me write a certain number of post-its, or I have to write in this reading log. So when I say we can't make kids love it, that's true. However, , we don't want to be setting them up to hate it either, which sometimes people inadvertently do.

Matt Renwick (06:46):

Well, that comes into the next question I had. You noted on page one, Hannah, that the number one obstacle for teachers trying to increase independent reading time to be able to confer with students to support them in being independent is the demands of the literacy curriculum. But then at the same time, you do share ways to prioritize independent reading that can exist alongside a curriculum resource. So, I guess the connection here is I've heard teachers say, I just don't have time to meet with all my kids, you know? And because of the resource, because of this, or because I can't meet with small groups, there's just too many things to do. What have you found that teachers have done to make better use of their time to increase independent reading? Because I do think there are opportunities that teachers don't always see, to be able to support kids at that level of independence.

Hannah Schneewind (07:50):

Absolutely. So I think there are two different scenarios. So I think one scenario is that I have a program that I have to follow and I'm not sure how to follow this program and still make time for independent reading. And then there's a second scenario, which is I have independent reading up and going, I have devoted time for it. My administrator's completely behind it. I have the books, I'm just not sure how to make it incredibly impactful. So I think those are two different scenarios. So I am actually currently working with some schools in Connecticut who, because of state legislation, will be using a reading program next year. And the district actually asked me to come in specifically to make sure that they can hold on to independent reading. It will be interesting, so I'll be able to tell you more about it in a few months.

(08:50):

We're just at the beginning of it. But one thing that we have thought is, even if you're within a reading program, right? Kids are reading, and once they are done doing whatever that kind of whole class basal type text is for the day, you're always going to have kids who are finishing at different times, and what better time for them to then go do that independent reading, and then you segue from that kind of whatever the whole class activity is into independent reading, and then you do your conferring. So that's one way that we're thinking about it is just kind of tucking it in to that. Another thing you can do, if you have to do this program for "x" number of minutes a day, I also go back to what Kelly Gallagher says in high school.

(09:45):

He teaches high school, he has kids for 50 minutes, and so the first 10 minutes of every single day is independent reading, and he can do two conferences in 10 minutes. So that means as an elementary teacher, my kids have gotten 50 minutes of independent reading over the week, and I've conferred over the course of two weeks, I've conferred with almost everyone in my class. So I think it's that when you talk about finding time, when you talk about finding time, the time is there. It's tricky. So as I said, that's kind of one scenario. The other scenario though is that I have independent reading up and running, but I don't feel as if it's going really well and I'm not sure what to do. So that's the work that Jen and I do a lot.

(10:38):

I will say the question that I get asked the most is, what do I confer about? Like, how's the conference supposed to go? You know? So I think that number one, just don't be afraid to confer, because people will often say, "Well, I walk around, I kind of check in with the kids." and I'll say, "You're already conferring, right?" And now what you have to do is take that kind of checking in and make it really intentional, because if you're already checking in, you could take that five minutes of a check-in and make it five really, really impactful minutes if you kind of follow this structure. And then that's life changing. You know, when teachers realize the importance of being really intentional in that how they spend their time during independent reading.

Matt Renwick (11:31):

So it sounds like just look for pockets and opportunities within your current schedule. Try not to fight it too much, but start really small, make it easy, make it really hard to not do it. Like the example of Kelly Gallagher and just, "Guys, we get 10 minutes to read when you come in." What a neat way to start the class. Just a nice soft landing to whatever chaos is happen in the hallways. You always know you have a quiet, safe spot, coming into Kelly's class.

Hannah Schneewind (12:03):

Yeah, absolutely. So I work with some teachers who also as a way of increasing the number of minute students are reading, we'll do that for like 10 minutes in the morning and then 10 minutes after lunch, because we all know, the beginning of kindergarten, first grade, five minutes is really all you might get, but if you do five minutes in the morning and five minutes in the afternoon and that turns to 10 and 10, then you have 20 minutes. So I also have learned myself to be really flexible in thinking about time. That is to say, ideally, yes, we have this beautiful hour block where we are all sitting there and kids are hunched over their books and working with partners. I mean, that's what I had the liberty to do in my own classroom. And that's the vision. However, you know, as I said, 10 minutes in the morning, 10 minutes in the afternoon adds up to 20 minutes every day. So yeah, whatever ways you can work it in, I think it's really important.

Matt Renwick (13:06):

And I have a third question. This kind of transitions to more of a leadership perspective, and you did say in there in one example, you had leaders have you come in to preserve independent reading as they transition to a more commercialized resource. So that's one way as leaders is to make decisions about how resources are spent. But you make the point that teachers need to be trusted as well.

Hannah Schneewind (13:37):

Mm-hmm.

Matt Renwick (13:39):

What specific actions can leaders take to convey their trust, as well as to ensure every kid, every student's being trusted as readers in every classroom? Because not every teacher believes independent reading is important, even though that's the ultimate goal is we want them to transfer, we want them to pick up those identities as readers. So as leaders like myself - we're all leaders here- what can we do to trust teachers so they can trust students and ensure full school accountability?

Hannah Schneewind (14:10):

Absolutely. So I am not a principal and I've never been a principal, so, I would never say, "Well, let me give you some advice." But what I can tell you is what I have noticed or what has worked in the buildings where I work. So I think the first thing is that leaders do need to trust teachers to make their own schedules. And I know that might sound small, but that's actually pretty huge, because if teachers feel as if I must be doing reading from 10:02 to 10:31, and then I'm somehow going to be reprimanded if I'm not doing reading at 10:31, you know. That is not really setting up really great conditions for the teacher. Now, I understand that there have to be parameters, right? Everyone in first grade pretty much has to be doing reading at essentially the same time because we have pullout and we have all these other things.

(15:07):

So I totally get that. It doesn't need to be down to, you know, the minute. So I think that where you can, giving teachers some wiggle room in their schedules is really important. The other thing I would say that goes along with that is giving them flexibility to switch things around. That is to say, sometimes people will have a schedule where they always do reading in the morning and they always do writing in the afternoon, right? And what happens in the afternoon, we all know, right? Especially with the young kids. Afternoon, may not be so great at time. And then I'll have teachers say, "Oh, but I can't switch it. You know, the schedule is that way. I have to follow that." "Well, why?" you know, "why can't you switch it? You're getting to everything." So why not have writing in the morning some days and reading in the afternoon some days?

(16:01):

So I think that if leaders give teachers that kind of flexibility, I think that goes a long way. Then the other thing that I think is very difficult about being a principal, and even in my role, is that I think it's very tricky to balance curricular consistency with teacher autonomy. That is to say, yes, we need to have a consistent curriculum, right? We, our school has to have consistent values. We all think that kids need a long time to read. That has to be consistent. And at the same time, you can recognize that some teachers are going to do it differently, and it's not going to look exactly the same. So this is a silly example, but I love to sing. And so in first grade, independent reading was always preceded by shared singing of songs that were shared reading. That was me. My colleague next door is like, "I am not singing." She did lots of shared reading of big books, but we were both doing the same thing. We were both getting to all those skills and strategies. So I think that balance as yes, we need to be consistent and yes, where are places where we can give teachers autonomy.

Matt Renwick (17:22):

Yeah. I think you nailed it, Hannah, that's one of the biggest challenges of leadership, is balancing the curriculum coherence and teacher autonomy. And I'm glad you brought that up. I would hand the mic over, so to speak, to Mary Beth or Debra, if you have any thoughts on what Hannah shared here. I've been taking notes. This has been great.

Mary Beth Nicklaus (18:01):

I was thinking about what you were saying about teacher autonomy and letting teachers create their own schedules. Because when you're dealing, like with middle school, high school, and you have that 50 minute or 40 minute block or regular class period, skinny class period, depending on the chemistry of your class, this whole working with reading is not linear. You have your routine and you have your stations where I work on this, then I work on this, then I work on this. But when you're dealing with a certain chemistry of those older kids, especially if you're dealing with students who are maybe not your regular mainstream students, nothing is linear.

(19:07):

You plug them into those routines, but then you might suddenly break off into somebody has an idea that they want to write, like say a story based on...I had a student who really got into Gary Paulson and he was actually a foster student and he said, "You know, Gary Paulson writes about his life, and I have interesting life stories, so I would like to..." (He had already completed two or three books.) "I would like to write about some of my life stories." So he'd read some of the time, then he'd go off and start writing a story, and then other students started joining. Well, I have something I can write too. And you know what's really interesting? That year I got a grant through Encourage Foundation, and we put all our stories together in a book that's towards the end of the year.

(20:04):

And that really meant something to these kids, to the point that years later, I had gone into Lulu Publishing, and they each got a spiral bound last story book. I had a student come up to me and I didn't even recognize him at first because he was grown up now. And I think he was a senior in high school, and he said, "I still have my book on my dresser, and I look at it every day." So you find things, you know, the stuff that you're doing in elementary creates a foundation, especially if it's as strong as the kind of ideas that you have and what I'm seeing so far in your book. And then I get them, someone like me gets them, and you just keep that going. If there's anything I can stress, and you're talking about teacher autonomy is, realize that they're a professional, they know what to do with the chemistry of their students. And then within that framework you can usually end up getting something pretty interesting, I think.

Matt Renwick (21:16):

Thanks Mary Beth, I think that's a cool story. I know if I was walking through your classroom, I would think, "Hey, that's awesome. Keep doing that." I am wondering why some leaders don't do that. And I suspect it comes back to the initial line from Regie's Rotman's book: teachers need to be leaders and leaders need to know literacy. And I suspect that some leaders just don't know literacy. And that's why teacher autonomy falls apart. They don't know how to see different pathways to the same outcome. I would open up to Debra or Hannah because you work with different schools. Any words of wisdom, experiences here, where how a leader might build their literacy knowledge or practice, especially if they don't have a literacy background?

Debra Crouch (22:11):

Well, hopefully they're joining in any professional learning opportunities. I know that's made a huge difference in the schools I've worked with is, if principals believe enough in what the conversations are that you're having with teachers when you come in that they make the time to come in and be part of that conversation. I think a really just a critical piece, so that they're asking the questions and they're hearing the kinds of conversations that their teachers are engaged in. Within all of this, I was just thinking about as you were talking about teachers and principals, if they value and make sure that this is part of their day, that it's not the add-on, independent reading is not the extra thing that you're doing.

(23:20):

It's the thing that you're doing, right? It builds around it, sort of the same thing with writing. I'm in that same conversation with writing. It's like, this isn't an extra, you know, independent reading, independent writing is not the extra stuff. It's the reason you're doing what you do. I think that was just such a powerful message. As principals you don't want to require, but at the same time, how do you balance that conversation out of just making sure that that it is something that we recognize it has to be part of our day. So in the autonomy, part of me goes, as long as they understand it's so important that you have to have independent reading and writing every day. But that again, expectations and consistency and the ongoing conversations.

Hannah Schneewind (24:17):

Yeah, I agree with everything you said, and specifically having principals be part of the work with teachers, I think is key. When they do that, I treat the principal just the way I would treat another teacher. So if everyone is gonna go off and trying a conference, the principal's going to go off and try a conference. And if everyone is conferring with a partner and the partner's going to practice coaching in, then the principal is part of that. Because if they're not really doing it, how on earth are they actually going to be able to evaluate it? So another thing that I encourage principals to do is, if you are doing an evaluation - and again, I'm not a principal, I know nothing about evaluations - but when you are evaluating, please do not just watch the mini lesson and leave because then you only looking at 10 minutes of whole class instruction, and that actually is not the most impactful part.

(25:23):

Please sit down next to the teacher as she's doing a small group. Sit down next to her as she's doing a one-on-one conference. That's the time. Write down everything she says. That's actually what I think you could then evaluate and give really helpful feedback about. But so often, and I don't know if this happens to you, but often when I do come into a school for the first time, they just want to talk about mini lessons. And I actually have learned to say, "Actually, no, let's start with matching kids and books. Let's start with getting your classroom library together. Let's start with how do you say to a child, 'Hey, how's it going with your reading today?'" And then we can think about the mini lesson, because too often we just focus on, as I said, that whole class part. But really that's not where the magic happens. And so if you can get principals to confer and then to do their evaluations or observations while the teacher is doing that, I think those can be really helpful for leadership.

Matt Renwick (26:30):

That reminds me of beginning with the end in mind: we'll start with where we want to be, at the end. I know you're not a principal, Hannah, but I think you ideas are spot on. I've been guilty of that too, of just watching teaching, and I forget that teaching happens all day long, and it doesn't mean the teachers, you know, verbally giving instructions or are writing on the board. So much of good teaching happens in those quiet spaces. One thing I've tried to do to is to confer with readers myself, when I do visits in classrooms. I just did this with fifth grade group talking with a student about what he was reading: a baseball book. He had just tons of knowledge.

(27:17):

Peter Afflerback calls it "epistemic beliefs" or "epistemiology", right? Just a wide range of knowledge about baseball, about legends. He was able to say, "Aaron Judge wouldn't be in this book because he's a current player. In this book, it talks just about legends from like 1990 or previous." You know, just things I wouldn't know. But later on, I said to his teacher, "I don't know if the student would do so well on a typical assessment." She's like, "I know." I've had kind of a shared frustration there was not a solution, right? But at least we could talk about that at a very collegial level. And it did not feel like an evaluation. And I think that's what teachers really crave, is just conversation and not always solutions. But I appreciate this advice. We're already at 30 minutes and this has so far been a great conversation. I think what we could do is just kind of go around and, especially with Debra and Mary Beth, if you have any closing thoughts or questions for Hannah, I'll start with you, Mary Beth, if you have anything you'd like to close with.

Mary Beth Nicklaus (28:51):

As a teacher, I've seen it because I've been teaching long enough where I've had very supportive principals who I just feel they were kind of almost the backbone of what was going on in my classroom. Because as a teacher, you feel like the principal is good with what you're doing, it like gives you this exhilaration and this feeling like you can take chances and be happy taking chances and look at it as a challenge instead of a fear that you're going to get slapped down. So I agree with you that the principal is a very important part of that.

Matt Renwick (29:43):

Debra, any closing thoughts for you?

Debra Crouch (29:46):

Yeah, I was just so enjoying reading this, and I had actually pulled it out earlier. I was doing some work with some teachers on their classroom libraries, now thinking with a little bit of a future in mind and for the fall. So in Chapter 2, the thing that I thought was so just beautiful about the parts that we read for this notion of trust, I think is just so powerful. It speaks to the way that we view kids and the way that we view teachers,  as capable and of course they can do this, this kind of thinking work.

(30:45):

It's just such a critical part of relationships, as a condition of learning, and that principle of engagement that you have to have that trusting relationship. Without that nothing else goes. Mary Beth, the way you said that, if your principal's with you, you don't fear trying things out. You don't fear, you know, trying something and it's not going to work the way that we want it this time. And I think that's just such a critical piece that's sometimes missing in classrooms today. If teachers come to us and say, "How do you want it? What's the district want? What's the principal want?" How's it supposed to be that that's really a base of fear. Doesn't matter how good you are as a teacher, it's a base of fear that you're coming from. It doesn't have that sense of trust that you need to be the learner that you can be. So I'm just absolutely loving your book.

Hannah Schneewind (31:49):

Thank you. I'm glad it's really useful. I'd love to know what the teachers do with their classroom libraries.

Debra Crouch (31:56):

Oh my goodness, kindergarten, they were so adorable. So we were trying to put the books into understanding the notion that their books are categorized, right. You know, putting the books together. And I took your question. They're about, "Are the books together, you know, putting the books that are together, right. And this one little five year old who's next to me, he goes, "Wait, it's like garbage." And I'm thinking, "Huh?". And he goes, "You put the plastic together, and you put the paper together, and you put the..."

Hannah Schneewind (32:28):

Right?

Matt Renwick (32:32):

Yeah.

Hannah Schneewind (32:33):

Yeah. That's a perfect way of understanding it. Right? And that's such a great example of, it makes sense to kids and then however you set up that library will make sense to them.

Matt Renwick (32:45):

It's a classic student example too.

Hannah Schneewind (32:50):

Yeah. I might have to use that one.

Matt Renwick (32:59):

Hannah, any closing thoughts for you? I'll just say, I've used and read Chapter 2. I've read that chapter twice and even have recommended it to teachers in my building, especially if they've not been part of the culture very long. I'll say, "Read this chapter and this really gets to the heart of what we're trying to get to in our school." But terrific book. I agree with everyone. Any closing thoughts, Hannah?

Hannah Schneewind (33:27):

First of all, thank you for having me. And it just makes me so happy to hear that people are using it because really what more could you ask, right? It's like what, when we say to kids, you know, what action do you want to take after reading this book? The action might be, I wanna go find another book by this author. Or the action might be, I need to write a letter to my senator about greenhouse gases. But I'm so happy that our book can actually help people take some actions. I guess my closing thought would be about reading identity, which we did not have a chance to discuss. So one of the things that I find frustrating about some of the current narrative around the teaching of reading is that the role of engagement and motivation and the research on engagement and motivation is being completely ignored.

(34:20):

Students are at the center of this. That is as much a science of reading as is the science of decoding and what we need to know about phonics and phonemic awareness and phonological awareness. If you want to talk more about just that piece at some point, it's just so important. And if teachers don't yet feel comfortable conferring, everyone can sit down and do what we call a discovery conference, which is basically saying to the child, "Hey, tell me about yourself as a reader." That one question just gives you so much insight and also really shows that you are trusting the student. I really want to get to know you. So that's just something that I feel very passionately about is that student kind of being at the center of it and that reading identity and engagement motivation are a huge part of that. Thanks so much for hosting.

Matt Renwick (35:30):

Thank you, Hannah. Thank you Mary Beth. Thank you, Debra. Thank you. Great conversation. Please read Trusting Readers: Powerful Practices for Independent Reading by Jennifer Scoggin and Hannah Schneewind through Heinemann. Terrific book and terrific conversation. Thank you.

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