In Episode 08 of PennSound podcasts, on December 9, 2004, brought together two very different Cageans — and — for a conversation with the students of his Modern and Contemporary American Poetry course. First, we hear from Goldsmith, explaining the hubbub that resulted when his book Soliloquoy was first introduced. Soliloquoy is an unedited document of every word Goldsmith spoke during one week in 1996 (he wore a hidden, voice-activated tape recorder and transcribed the results). In the discussion that follows, Osman and Goldsmith hash out the political nature of language ("Language is just charged matter," Goldsmith says), the presence of choice and intervention in the work of Cage and , the inability of poetics to be truly uncreative, and the power of form and structure in poetry.