Uncensored Renegades

Jon and Kory discuss the unexpected viral success of 3, 5, 7, 9, and the psychology that made the idea resonate.

They unpack where the framework came from, why repetition helps ideas stick, and how marketers can use memorable language without crossing the line from persuasion into indoctrination.

Along the way, they explore why great brands have great taglines, what campaigns can learn from 3, 5, 7, 9, and how a simple idea becomes something people want to repeat.

Useful links:

• Kellyn Smith Kenny’s 3-5-7-9 framework
• Virtuosi League

Timestamps

00:00 - Start
00:57 - The viral clip
01:49 - How does the viral clip benchmark against other clips
03:48 - The comments on the viral video
04:54 - Where does 3, 5, 7, 9 come from?
06:09 - Why 3, 5, 7, 9 works
10:52 - Have any marketing campaigns adopted 3, 5, 7, 9?
16:49 - Persuasion vs indoctrination
20:15 - Why good brands have great taglines
21:44 - 3, 5, 7, 9 - repeated

Jon and Kory discuss the traits that separate renegade leaders from the rest.

From courage and risk tolerance to persistence and a bias for action, they explore what it takes to challenge conventional thinking inside large organisations, especially when bureaucracy, short-term pressure and fear of failure make bold decisions difficult.

Timestamps

00:00 - Start
01:16 - The core characteristics of a Renegade leader
02:39 - 3 surprising facts about Renegade leaders
03:49 - Why are companies so risk averse
08:00 - Challenging the status quo
13:47 - Why great leaders have courage
15:47 - Having a high risk tolerance
19:36 - Why e.l.f. want their competitors to get bigger
21:03 - Why great leaders provide air cover
21:49 - Renegade leaders are persistent
22:56 - Beating bureaucracy
24:18 - Do one thing, do it well
25:46 - Bias for action
26:56 - Jon does strategic distillation

Jon and Kory discuss why, in an increasingly online world, some of the most important work still happens when people are together in a room.

From recording the podcast face-to-face to building high-performing teams, they explore what is lost when every interaction becomes a scheduled video call. Not productivity or convenience, but the trust, informal learning and unexpected opportunities that are much harder to create remotely.

They examine the changing attitude towards office life, including a Gen Z counter-swing towards real-world connection, and why some investors remain wary of backing fully remote teams. Kory also shares why e.l.f. is continuing to invest in in-person experiences, and how events can create connections that genuinely change someone’s career or life.

Timestamps

00:00 - Start
00:25 - Why we do the podcast in person
01:56 - How many companies are back in offices
04:46 - The Gen Z counterswing
07:33 - Why investors only invest in in-person teams
08:36 - The power of IRL within teams
12:19 - The unexpected opportunities that happen IRL
13:31 - Why e.l.f. are investing in in-person events
17:04 - How in-person events can change lives
18:27 - How do we use IRL in an ever online world
20:03 - A question from Jon and Kory

Jon and Kory discuss why the metrics designed to improve performance can sometimes lead businesses in exactly the wrong direction.

Kory explains why e.l.f. does not tie compensation directly to KPIs, and why misaligned targets can discourage creativity, distort decision-making and even put good people at risk.

They also tackle a growing leadership problem: treating KPIs as instructions rather than information. How high should targets be? When do they create useful focus, and when do they become a ceiling? And what should leaders use instead when the work requires judgement, experimentation and long-term thinking?

Timestamps

00:00 - Start
01:01 - Do KPIs kill creativity?
02:56 - Goodhart’s law
03:31 - Why e.l.f. do not have compensation based KPIs
06:50 - Why misaligned KPIs can get you fired
09:37 - Can KPIs hold you back?
13:25 - People are using KPIs like AI
14:19 - How high should you set KPIs
16:19 - The better way to approach KPIs
19:09 - Are KPIs out?

Jon and Kory discuss why humour is a serious advantage for brands, leaders and anyone trying to earn attention. They explore the science behind why humour makes ideas more memorable, why funny advertising has become less common, and the important difference between trying to be amusing and using humour to reveal a truth.

The conversation looks at what it takes to create the conditions for humour to thrive: giving people permission to take creative risks, planning for it rather than treating it as an afterthought, and understanding why brands such as Liquid Death make it look effortless.

A useful case for taking the work seriously, without always taking yourself quite so seriously.

Timestamps

00:00 - Start
01:44 - The serious case for humour
03:46 - The science behind humour
04:48 - Why humour is good for brands
06:28 - Why we are seeing less funny ads
09:23 - Humour touches on truth
11:17 - How to create the conditions for humour to thrive
14:25 - Why the best brands plan humour
17:38 - Why Liquid Death are so funny
19:37 - Can you use humour in a business context?

Jon and Kory discuss why persuasion is one of the most important, and overlooked, skills in leadership.

Getting an idea approved is rarely about delivering the perfect argument in a meeting. It starts earlier: asking better questions, listening closely, understanding what different people need, and finding the stories that make an idea feel relevant rather than imposed.

They explore the role of verbal and non-verbal communication, why the meeting is never really just the meeting, and how to build support before a decision is formally on the table. Kory also shares practical lessons from winning over her own board, persuading an organisation to take risks, and turning advocates into people who will sell the idea when you are not in the room.

A practical episode for leaders who need to influence without forcing, build alignment without endless consensus, and give their best ideas a genuine chance of happening.

Links

• The Storyteller's Secret Book

Timestamps

00:00 - Start
00:56 - Is persuasion one of the secrets to being a successful leader?
02:24 - The importance of asking questions
05:00 - The art of listening
08:09 - Verbal and non verbal communication
10:49 - The power of communicating through stories
13:43 - The meeting is never actually the meeting
17:26 - How Kory sold So Many Dicks to her board
20:08 - Pursauding your company to take risks
21:17 - Getting advocates to sell your idea
26:03 - Identifying your leverage

Jon and Kory discuss the Wiseman’s 15 building blocks of customer obsession: a practical framework for turning customer-first intentions into the way an organisation actually works, exemplified by Dutch Bros.

As always, Kory brings the data behind customer-obsessed organisations before the duo discuss why internal politics so often gets in the way, and whether founder-led businesses have a natural advantage when it comes to staying close to the people they serve.

From empowering frontline teams to reading every customer complaint, they unpack the behaviours that make customer obsession tangible rather than a line in a values document. They also draw on lessons from Unreasonable Hospitality, challenge the limitations of the golden rule, and consider how leaders can embed a customer-first mindset across the business.

Links

• Founders Mentality Book
• Unreasonable Hospitality Book

Timestamps

00:00 - Start
00:40 - Are you really obsessed with your customer?
01:59 - The data behind customer obsessed organisations
03:08 - Why internal politics gets in the way of the customer
05:15 - Are founder-led companies more customer led?
06:42 - The Wiseman’s building blocks
08:47 - Jon’s favourite customer first principles
10:25 - Example of empowering the front lines
13:11 - Kory’s favourite customer first principle
14:20 - Talking through all the Wiseman building blocks
17:13 - Why Kory reads all of e.l.f.’s customer complaints
19:13 - Customer first lessons from Unreasonable Hospitality
23:48 - Why Kory doesn’t like the golden rule
24:45 - How to embed these principles into your organisation

Jon and Kory discuss how small, consistent improvements can transform team performance 38x in just 1 year. Using lessons from elite cycling and Team Sky’s famously obsessive approach to marginal gains, they explore why high-performing teams rarely improve through one dramatic intervention. Instead, progress comes from making incremental improvements that compound over time.

Links

• The Earned Life, Marshall Goldsmith - book

Timestamps

00:00 - Start
00:24 - Why Jon always wears black
02:45 - The compounding power of incremental gains
05:16 - Lessons from high performance sport
06:48 - The insane 1% improvements Team Sky made to win the Tour De France
11:21 - Applying cycling lessons to leadership
13:52 - Why you need to ask for feedback
16:27 - Just start
17:10 - How to see if you’ve actually made progress
20:28 - The paradoxical data on incremental progress

Jon and Kory discuss why making good decisions is one of the hardest – and most important – parts of leadership, and share the frameworks they use to make better choices when the answer isn't obvious.

From knowing when to trust the data and when to follow your gut, to de-risking big decisions and playing “angel's advocate”, they explore practical ways to challenge your own thinking. They unpack Solomon's paradox, the 10:10:10 rule, automatic negative thoughts and why sometimes the smartest thing you can do is ask someone else for help.

They also explore what happens when you stop actively thinking about a problem, some surprisingly useful Japanese wisdom, and one particularly simple test: would you make the same decision drunk?

Whether you're facing a huge strategic choice or simply stuck overthinking, these are 9 tools to help you make decisions with greater clarity and confidence.

Links

• G.O.A.T. Wisdom Book
• Greg Hahn on Uncensored CMO
• The Brain at Rest Book (why your brain can make good decisions when you're not thinking)

Timestamps

00:00 - Start
00:26 - Why Jon looks “savagely tanned”
01:19 - Why decision making is hard
04:16 - When you need to trust the data or your gut
06:43 - How to make a decision
07:29 - How to de risk a decision
09:30 - Try playing “angel’s advocate”
10:50 - Solomon’s paradox when making a decision
11:51 - Squash the ants (automatic negative thoughts)
12:23 - The 10:10:10 rule
14:36 - Ask for help
15:22 - Make space for your default mode network
17:06 - Would you make the same decision drunk?
17:47 - Japanese wisdom for decision making
20:29 - The stats on why this is important

Today Kory shares the lessons from taking her leadership team offsite and deliberately putting them into an unfamiliar environment - a horse ranch. Jon and Kory explore why pattern disruption can help teams break old habits, the difference between a group of strong individual contributors and a genuinely connected team, and why getting outside your comfort zone can reveal how you really work together.

They also discuss the language of connection, learning to ask for help, why pressure isn't always the answer, and how to turn an offsite from a memorable experience into lasting behavioural change. Because however busy your team feels, sometimes stepping away from the work is exactly what helps you do the work better.

Links

• G.O.A.T. Wisdom Book
• EQ2 Horse Ranch Leadership Offsite

Timestamps

00:00 - Start

00:37 - Why Kory takes her team offsite

03:01 - Why you need to transform your team

04:14 - The power of pattern disruption

07:13 - Individual contributors vs working as a team

11:20 - Going out of your comfort zone

13:40 - The language of connection

18:21 - Learning how to ask for help

23:44 - The power is not in the pressure, it’s in the release

25:40 - How Kory is implementing the lessons in the team

27:03 - You’re too busy to not do this