Dawson Allen was raised in the ninth largest church in America, but then 2016 happened.

When 81% of white evangelicals showed up in the polling data, he started asking questions his church had no space for. That search led him from megachurch world to the academy, and from the academy to organizing in the immigrant rights movement in East Tennessee. In this conversation, Dawson breaks down what real movement looks like—not the kind everyone likes to use to describe their brand—and why the American church has largely forfeited its public witness since the 1970s. We talk about what it would take to build kingdom-of-God alternatives to the forces shaping our world right now, along with social movement ecology, the 3.5% tipping point, why faith and creativity are two of the most underplayed tools we have, and why hosting a potluck might matter more than the typical pulpit preaching happening at most churches.