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Victor Wong Talks Jiu Jitsu, Kettle Bells and Dropping 20 Pounds

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A tournament-level martial artist takes us through jiu jitsu's journey from Japan to Brazil to UFC and his own physical journey to get the conditioning to win most of his matches.

Tom Kagy (00:02.161)

Hello, this is Tom Kagy with Unconventional Wisdom. Today our guest is Victor Wong, who happens to be a very active tournament level jujitsu martial artist. Welcome, Victor.

Victor Wong (00:16.6)

Hi Tom, happy to be here

Tom Kagy (00:20.26)

One of the big questions that I had, as you might recall, is how you happened to get into Jiu-Jitsu in the first place?

Victor Wong (00:27.918)

Yeah, funny story. think this is something a lot of people can relate to. It was in high school. I had just gotten into cross country and the world of just athletics and whatnot. And just through that, I think it was around 2011, 2012-ish, I was on YouTube and…

found the Joe Rogan podcast and he was talking about UFC one where there was this really small unassuming Brazilian fighter who, you know, like looked very, very small, very, very skinny, but he was using this weird martial art to take out guys that were much bigger than him. And that kind of instilled this desire to learn this what seemed like a superpower at the time.

Whoa, I this small unassuming fellow who looks like a random dad can just beat up these big muscly monsters What where can I learn this and then you know through the Joe Rogan podcast and a cursory Google search I found jujitsu Unfortunately being a high schooler who was focused on academics, right? You know, I was still focused on getting into college. And of course, my parents weren't really too keen

Tom Kagy (01:51.089)

Mm-hmm.

Victor Wong (01:56.18)

on letting me waste time doing martial arts and not studying. You know, it was hard to convince them to pay the monthly membership fees for Jigetsu. you know, that went on the back burner for a very, long time. I focused on my studies, kept active with running and lifting weights throughout high school, going into college, and after my undergraduate, getting my master's.

And then once I was like fully done with school, you know, I, kind of like forgot about jujitsu until I saw a school around the corner. And then I thought, oh, wait, that was something I used to really, really be into. Let me, let me try it again. You know, it's been almost 10, 10 or so years. And then I

into my first jiu-jitsu class in around 2019 and I've been training since. Yeah.

Tom Kagy (02:56.461)

Okay, well, you know, one of the questions that I have about jiu-jitsu is it sounds like a Japanese martial arts and yet everywhere you look it's called Brazilian jiu-jitsu. So explain the relationship.

Victor Wong (03:09.578)

Yeah, yeah, of course. There's an interesting history behind it. There's some politics too, but jujitsu started off, well, in Japan, right? It was…

It used to be, or jujitsu is a blanket term for a number of decentralized Japanese martial arts, right? And during around the 1800s, Japan was in the process of modernizing and becoming more Western, right? As they were getting introduced to a lot of Western philosophies, ideologies and technologies, right? So there

was a student named Jigoro Kano who took up jiu-jitsu when he was when he was younger right and actually got interested in it because he was a smaller kid and he was getting bullied right at around his at around like middle school age right so he used managed to use jiu-jitsu and even some techniques he learned from Western wrestling

manuals to overcome his larger bullies and from then on he had this interest in preserving Japanese culture as the country moved into the modern age because

especially around that time, Jujitsu was seen as a sort of activity that only delinquents would do. But Kano saw how it could be used to create better citizens and wanted to preserve that part of…

Victor Wong (04:59.84)

Japanese culture. So what he sought to do instead was he one catalogued a lot of the techniques that were used by all these decentralized Japanese schools. And one genius thing was he had a very good pattern recognizing mind where he saw common techniques that seemed to emerge throughout all these different arts and then actually catalog them by their mechanism like a

of scientist or a librarian really and once he kind of cataloged all the most common techniques and the most reliable and high percentage ones right he distilled them down to their mechanisms and created this more centralized and streamlined art that eventually came to be known as Kano's Jujitsu at the time and yeah yeah it was around the

Tom Kagy (05:52.583)

So this was what, around 18 something.

Victor Wong (05:57.71)

It was around the early to mid 1800s. Yes. And then after he catalogued all these techniques, he found disciples and fellow training partners who also drew lineage from these older Jujitsu schools and he collaborated with them. worked together. They worked together to sort of centralize this curriculum. again, Kano was thinking about how to modernize it. So he

Tom Kagy (06:01.361)

Okay.

Victor Wong (06:28.085)

created a sport around it which would eventually become known as judo but before then he also was against this idea of just simply keeping the technique secret right because these schools they were all

Rivals to one another they had their secret techniques, but what Kano wanted to do he want he was an educator first so his idea of cataloging all these techniques was to maintain history and he and his disciples right they sought to actually spread it around the world and the

And one of the early people in this diaspora was Mitsuwo Maeda, who traveled across different countries like Europe and then eventually Brazil, where he would teach a very famous family known as the Gracies, the art of Jiu-Jitsu. And the foundational myth was…

Maeda taught the sons of the Gracie family Jujitsu and the youngest and the most frail member, his name was Helio, couldn't do some of the more athletically…

let's say like explosive or super strength dependent movements. So he then modified it for himself where it was instead of focused on essentially lifting another person and then throwing them to the ground. He had this method of

Victor Wong (08:03.562)

entangling the other person and dragging them to the ground where he could diminish a stronger fighter's physical attributes and use submission holds in order to subdue them. But that is the foundational, that is the sort of like foundational myth of

Brazilian jiu-jitsu and from there this new spin on the Japanese jiu-jitsu kind of took root while Kano and his other disciples were moving the sport, the art in a different direction across the globe. Yeah. Yes.

Tom Kagy (08:38.543)

Very interesting. Yeah, that sort of clears up the confusion I've had because I whenever I think about jiu-jitsu or hear about it, it always seems to be Brazilian jiu-jitsu. So I assume then that the version that people are practicing today are mostly the product of helios's modifications of the techniques.

Victor Wong (08:49.933)

Yes.

Victor Wong (09:02.926)

Yes, especially in America. I would say the Brazilian version is what took root because the Gracys were very…

They were a sort of merchant clan in Brazil, right? And with their business acumen, they saw that the US was a great market to tap into. they focused, their diaspora was more focused on generating money. So the idea of the first UFC, UFC One was essentially a marketing tool for their version of Jiu-Jitsu.

Tom Kagy (09:45.319)

okay. That's another fascinating connection. I didn't know that UFC was actually birthed by the whole Jiu-Jitsu school.

Victor Wong (09:52.705)

Yes, yes, it was started by the Gracys before they eventually sold it to another holding company, which is how we have the modern UFC under Dana White. Yeah.

Tom Kagy (10:00.783)

Okay, so wait

Tom Kagy (10:05.352)

Okay. So when did this happen? This transition between the Brazilian Gracie family and Dana White's UFC?

Victor Wong (10:16.566)

I'd say around early 2000s. The Gracies had run, think, I, again, I need to consult the Wikipedia on this, but I think they ran the first, I would say three or five UFCs themselves before they eventually sold the rights over to Dana White and his holding company.

Tom Kagy (10:40.647)

Okay, so does that mean that when you're watching a UFC fight that all of the participants or all of the contestants are actually practicing some form of Jiu Jitsu?

Victor Wong (10:55.862)

Yeah, they are all practicing some form of jiu-jitsu, though I will say that now that

the sport has matured. It's almost a completely different sport than just pure jiu-jitsu itself because jiu-jitsu itself has its own sporting contest. Similarly, Kano's jiu-jitsu, now known as judo, is also its own sporting contest. And now MMA itself, again, especially in the UFC, is basically a different art or a sport, you could say.

Tom Kagy (11:29.157)

Okay, so just to clear, just to get the history of the sport, when did strike, was striking a part of the original Jiu-Jitsu concept that was exported to Brazil or was that something that was added on later?

Victor Wong (11:50.339)

Yeah, yeah was actually. Because these decentralized jiu-jitsu schools had a striking curriculum. Well, obviously, right, because they were descendants of original samurai martial arts and whatnot. And each…

Tom Kagy (11:52.398)

Okay.

Victor Wong (12:09.582)

the tending of the torch had a different perspective on whether or not strikes are to be practiced. In Kano's Jujitsu, or as it's known today, Judo,

Kano, again, wanted to civilize the sport for the modern Japan, right? Because the idea that Kano had was he wanted normal citizens to practice the art and to practice it safely. One of the problems that Kano had seen in traditional pedagogy was an emphasis on…

static choreograph drilling where you would just stand there and somebody would just choreograph, I punch you and then I do a dodge and then I throw you.

And quickly you can see how this wasn't really representative of an actual fight because you can't guarantee that somebody is going to react that way. So you get into this sort of catch 22 where it's, I can't actually practice this technique because it'll hurt my training partner. And if you hurt your training partner, you won't get to actually practice, right? So the way Kano got around this problem was he removed

Tom Kagy (13:28.081)

Right.

Victor Wong (13:34.497)

removed the striking element because if you come into practice and you're constantly just punching your partner in the face, right, that, that, you know, hurts them, right? And they can't practice anymore. So he removed that so they could at least practice the grappling and the throwing aspect without, without hurting his partner. And one of the central tenants that Kano wanted to

built into judo was this idea of mutual benefit and welfare for all. Right? So if me and my partner just start punching each other, we can't really, that's not mutual benefit. And also if we want to be, you know, civilized citizens, it doesn't look good if, I'm going to judo practice and then we leave, you know, busted up. Right? So that's how Kano got around the striking problem.

Tom Kagy (14:24.409)

Right. Well.

Victor Wong (14:31.776)

When we go to Brazil and Mitsuo Maeda, Maeda was, kind of made his name doing these no holds barred fights, right? He would be in a traveling circus sort of situation where he would, you know, pick fights with people in the crowd saying, you can't beat me. And then he would, you know, use his superior martial arts to beat people up. And then the Gracies, right, took…

Tom Kagy (14:32.101)

Okay.

Victor Wong (15:00.49)

his style and then went into what was called valetudo fights or again these proto MMA fights where all things were allowed and then they use the grappling to win those fights. yeah and then now again similar similar situation right we started to see a splintering of the art right especially with MMA at first when jiu-jitsu came to the US and all that it was intrinsically tied.

to MMA, right? The idea was you do jiu-jitsu so you can go to MMA and beat people up. But then eventually a sport aspect started to branch off from jiu-jitsu where it was more focused on the grappling aspect and they also removed strikes.

Tom Kagy (15:50.353)

So is that an extant form? I mean, is that still being practiced where you simply practice a non-striking jujitsu sport?

Victor Wong (16:00.493)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now it's grown into its own sport, yes. You can participate in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu where you don't have to get punched in the face. Or if you want to practice Jiu Jitsu with strikes, then you can just do mixed martial arts, yes.

Tom Kagy (16:17.873)

So what about all these Gracie Brazilian Jiu Jitsu schools that you see everywhere and all these minimals? Is that the striking kind or is that the grappling only kind?

Victor Wong (16:29.044)

Now that is a very interesting question because it's kind of both. It really depends, it's very dependent on each school because a lot of them

have a self-defense oriented curriculum where they do practice against strikes. Now the degree of striking is going to be again dependent on who is running the class or running the school. Some will basically do a form of mixed martial arts, right? Where you will spar and one person will actually try to, you know, tee off on your face with gloves. There are other schools

where they just kind of do the choreography of somebody comes at you with a punch, how do you dodge it, and then how do you turn that situation into a grappling match, right? How do you dodge the punch and then throw them? So it's hard to give a very blanket statement because it's kind of a…

decentralized school to school, though all the Gracie schools will have the same curriculum on the wall.

Tom Kagy (17:45.945)

Okay, so well that was an excellent professorial presentation of the history of Jiu-Jitsu. I didn't realize you could make such a great professor. But now let's shift more toward Victor Wong and Jiu-Jitsu. So what form of Jiu-Jitsu do you practice when you're in these tournaments that you participate in?

Victor Wong (17:57.186)

Yeah

Victor Wong (18:11.798)

Yeah, yeah, I mostly practice sport jujitsu, no strikes, no mixed martial arts for me. Recently, I will say that I've been doing a lot more jujitsu without the gi. It's kind of the more modern version of it.

The more traditional version is wearing the uniform, is the traditional pants, jacket, and belt.

Tom Kagy (18:44.923)

Okay, so what are you wearing then if you're not wearing that?

Victor Wong (18:47.382)

Yeah, yeah. In Nogi, it's more of streamlined athletic attire, athletic shorts with no pockets and a tight fitting polyester shirt called a rash guard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's called a rash guard. It's very similar to what a surfer would wear, yeah.

Tom Kagy (19:02.865)

Okay, so that's what you're wearing when you're at these tournaments.

Tom Kagy (19:13.251)

Okay, well now we're going to get into the heart of what I thought would be interesting for most people, which is to participate in a Jiu-Jitsu tournament, you have to be in very good condition if you don't want to be embarrassed. So you're not just staying fit, you're staying fit and you're testing that fitness every so often against other very fit people that are also skilled in martial arts.

Victor Wong (19:39.467)

Yes.

Tom Kagy (19:42.875)

Tell us what your routine is. How do you prep for one of these tournaments?

Victor Wong (19:47.947)

Yeah, yeah, sure thing. when it comes to just sports in general, right, they call it the pyramid, right? You need to, in order to be good at a sport, you need to develop what are general physical qualities. So things like your maximal strength, your…

your cardiac output, both high end and low end. And what's really important is having…

being able to select different efforts, right? Because I think people get fixated too much on just like, okay, is it better to do three sets of five, five sets of five, eight sets of five, right? What is the best rep scheme? When in reality it's, need to have, especially for martial arts, you need to have an ability to exert yourself on multiple ends of the spectrum, right? So what that will look like is I will have periods of time where I will do…

maximal effort. Yeah, maximal effort lifts where it's less than maybe 15 total repetitions in a session, right? But these are hard repetitions. There are other sessions where I can do more than more than 100 more than 100 repetitions. There are cardio sessions that are focused on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like to

Tom Kagy (21:16.839)

So these are separate sessions on separate days, I'm assuming. Okay.

Victor Wong (21:23.606)

I like to do what's called conjugating where you'll, where maybe if I do a hard lift, then if I do my cardiac work, it'll be lower effort. If I'm doing higher for cardiac, or if I'm having a high cardiac output, then I will lower the intensity of the lifting. So to give an example,

For cardio, right, I talk about the lower effort and higher effort. A high effort cardio workout would be, say, just five 40-meter sprints, right? And a low cardio and a lower heart rate would be something like an easy 20, 30-minute run. Yeah.

Tom Kagy (22:15.079)

Okay, okay. So these, I'm assuming what you're doing is pairing a cardio workout of lower high intensity with a strength workout on the same days. Okay, thank you. So, you're doing this, what, how many days a week are you working out before a tournament?

Victor Wong (22:27.68)

Yes. Yes.

Victor Wong (22:36.99)

Usually three. Usually three days. Yes.

Tom Kagy (22:40.103)

Okay. So what about the skills? mean, I assume you also practice the skills. When do you do that?

Victor Wong (22:49.217)

Almost almost every day. Yeah

Tom Kagy (22:52.751)

Okay, so even on days when you're not doing the actual workouts, you're practicing your grappling skills, I assume.

Victor Wong (23:00.268)

Yes, yes. And again, at different intensities, but.

Tom Kagy (23:01.849)

Okay, so what, sorry.

So what would that look like? mean, how would you practice your grappling skills? Because I assume, I mean, sometimes you might be at a dojo or whatever and have a partner, but other times you've got to do it by yourself, right? Because you can't always coordinate a practice session.

Victor Wong (23:23.414)

Yeah, yeah, I have dedicated training partners and I can get consistent access to training partners every day. But if, you know, in the event that I don't have someone to train with, I usually watch a lot of film. I watch a lot of instructionals that are produced by people much, better than me. And I just watch those for technique. And then I just.

Tom Kagy (23:32.515)

okay.

Victor Wong (23:51.629)

I don't always take notes, but I try to be very specific with my viewing. And also with my actual physical training, with the skills, there are days where that are higher intensity and days that are more lower intensity that are just focused more on the sort of cerebral aspects. So some days will be more closer to a fight, like a fight level of intensity, whereas other days it's going to be slower and it's going to more of a

conversation with a training partner where we just explore the mechanics of a of an exchange and then we either ramp up or lower the intensity just based on how much Feedback we are we're getting in this exchange and One word about instructional is even though I do personally watch a lot

Tom Kagy (24:42.78)

Okay.

Victor Wong (24:50.92)

Most of the time, I'm not just, you know, just watching them like movies. may watch a, I may have an instructional running in the background where my focus isn't necessarily to, you know, download all the information in my brain, but just to get a quick overview. And then usually my actual training will inform my actual like research and study where if I have a very specific problem in training, I will reference.

the instructional material and find the 30 seconds where the guy on the instructional answers my question. Yeah.

Tom Kagy (25:30.543)

Right. So let's assume, just to get very specific and quantitative, let's assume that you have a tournament set up on day zero. Okay. So like talk about like how many days out when you start this training, you know, give some, you know, examples of how many minutes you spend doing the strength, the cardio, the skills and so forth. you know, let's say

whatever day number of days you start out of the tournament from and then sort of give us an idea of how you progress toward day zero.

Victor Wong (26:08.928)

Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. let's say we are a hundred three months. So a hundred twenty days out for the first four weeks. I would only do one high intensity cardio session. One.

one high intensity upper body strength session and one higher intensity lower body strength session. So three days a week. And again, this is, and I would emphasize just what's called, you know, base building for my cardiac bit or for my cardio. usually.

Two or three 30 minute runs every week So I would sustain this for about four weeks because at this point I don't necessarily need to cap out my cardiac output. I can spend this time sort of building building a good base and as far as skills go I

won't really focus too much. I will kind of let my training dictate what directions I need to go in. So when I come to practice, I don't have a goal quite yet. I'll just come in with an open mind and then see where I'm having trouble and sticking points. By weeks eight through four, I…

we'll start tapering off a little bit on just the on the road work, right? The lower intensity efforts. And I will then start incorporating more strength endurance. So usually lifting intervals for time, things like one minute on, one minute on, one minute off, tight lifts using kettlebell sport methodologies.

Victor Wong (28:23.71)

And then now that I have a direction in my training, right? I've had four weeks just to see where I'm getting stuck on in training. That's when I'll start using specific sessions to develop a position that I've been having issues with and one position that I feel like I'm very strong in.

And again, like I think this is an important thing with your with development is not just working on things that you're bad at, but also finding something that you're good at and then just refining it. Then by weeks four through, yeah, sorry, sorry, weeks eight through 12, as we get closer to the competition, I will then do a second.

high-density cardio session. then start tapering, I then start moving away from any maximal strength work and focus more on strength endurance. And then the actual training, I will be trying more to force a very specific line. So instead of before when I was just using training to sort of explore positions,

within those final weeks leading up to the competition, that's when I'm essentially playing every round to win as quickly as possible, as opposed to having a skill that I'm weaker at and then trying to practice that. I'm just simply practicing the skill of winning as quickly as possible.

Tom Kagy (29:59.643)

So focusing on your strength.

Victor Wong (30:01.45)

Exactly, exactly. Less on weaknesses, more on strengths. I think like a good way to like summarize that is the further I'm away from a competition is when I'm thinking about working on things that I'm weak at. The closer I get to a competition is I'm more focused on things that I'm good at. Yes.

Tom Kagy (30:25.543)

Okay, now let's talk about the final week before the actual competition. Take us through one day at a time what you're doing, how many minutes you're spending on each of the days. So let's start on a Sunday. When are the competitions, typically on a Saturday? Okay, so let's start from the Sunday before. So tell us what you'd be doing.

Victor Wong (30:42.419)

Usually on a Saturday. Yeah.

Victor Wong (30:50.046)

Yeah, yeah. Sure thing. Sure thing. So for my last competition, the Sunday before, I had a lower intensity skill based session where I meet up with one of my training partners and a group of other guys. And then I have a specific thing that I'm working on and we're only going at around 50%.

Right, we aren't going super hard and I'm just working on just getting repetitions in my best position. Lifting wise, I'm not doing anything super intense. I am still, I'm tapering off all high intensity work. So instead I would probably go back to doing some.

lower intensity work like a longer run or a longer walk. And as far as my lifting goes, at this point, there are no more adaptations that I can get from the lifting. So I just try to do something that is enjoyable. Nothing that pushes me.

Tom Kagy (32:06.863)

Okay, so you've tapered off on everything.

Victor Wong (32:10.004)

Yes, exactly. By this time, all those adaptations have already been achieved. So lifting can just be something fun. I just kind of make up whatever, but I just stop myself from doing anything that's intense. So nothing that makes me strain too hard.

Tom Kagy (32:30.064)

Okay.

So during that final week, how many days are you actually working out?

Victor Wong (32:39.87)

Maybe about two. Maybe about two serious sessions.

Tom Kagy (32:42.848)

Okay, so you're getting kind of lazy. You're just kind of conserving strength then. Okay.

Victor Wong (32:47.658)

Yes, yes. I'm more focused on just staying active than I am actually trying to push my limits and gain specific adaptations. Monday? I'd say the Monday is the last hard training session that I have where… Yes, yes, five days out. The Monday is when I will take my

Tom Kagy (33:08.871)

Okay, six days out or five days out, I guess. Okay.

Victor Wong (33:17.37)

last hard training session where I will just every roll every round I'll just try to win every exchange as quickly as possible. And then Tuesday through Thursday that's when I taper off my intensity in training even further.

I just focus on managing exertion levels, not pushing too hard, not getting myself injured. Right? I'll still go to class. I'll still go to practice. I'll still work on my positions, but I won't be as intent on winning everything. Then Friday, I basically do nothing. I might come to…

class come to practice just to help out my coaches and whatnot, but I won't actually do anything strenuous or difficult, then by Saturday that's when I compete.

Tom Kagy (34:26.695)

Okay, how long do these competitions last in terms of, you how many rounds of competition are you involved in typically?

Victor Wong (34:35.17)

Yeah, typically it's between, it can be as little as two matches, it can be as many as four five.

but usually.

Tom Kagy (34:46.459)

What does that depend on? How many times you win?

Victor Wong (34:51.298)

How both it depends on how many times you win and how many times or how many people sign up for the competition.

Tom Kagy (35:01.231)

Okay, so usually I remember you told, you know, when we spoke a while back, you were saying you were like batting like maybe 500 win loss, right? Is that how it typically is for you?

Victor Wong (35:19.882)

do you mean, do you mean, what?

Tom Kagy (35:21.925)

Yeah, you like winning half your matches. No, actually the last time we talked, I think you were doing better than that.

Victor Wong (35:29.004)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So as of Q4, I'm currently four wins, one loss. Though earlier this year, yeah. Yeah, earlier this year, yeah, wasn't doing so well. I was about two wins, six losses.

Tom Kagy (35:41.291)

nice, nice.

Tom Kagy (35:51.44)

Okay, so what made the difference? Is it anything that you actually did affirmatively or just pure luck in terms of your opponents?

Victor Wong (35:59.663)

Affirm it. Yeah. Yeah. So as far as a positive, positive actions, well, one, I started taking my weight much more seriously. I actually started dieting properly. mean, before I was still doing the work, but I wasn't really

super intentional with the way I was eating. I mean, I would, you know, get the protein shakes and try to focus on, you know, single ingredient foods and all that, but I would eat out too much. You know, the girlfriend would get a deal on wings and then I would never say no. So then I would eat the wings. But, you know, these little things add up and…

put on some excess weight, even though I was still relatively fit. I was weighing in at about 200, 215 pounds, which isn't necessarily bad, but you know, it just wasn't, I just wasn't as intentional earlier this year. Recently, huh.

Tom Kagy (37:11.463)

Okay. But to put it into context, you're not like 5'9", you're like 6'1", and 2'15", right? Okay. And now what do you weigh?

Victor Wong (37:18.988)

Yes, yes.

Yeah, as of my past competitions, I weighed in at under 195.

Tom Kagy (37:30.117)

Wow, okay, so you actually managed to lose 20 pounds then in less than a year. So take us through that. mean, tell us how you did that. Because that probably for most people listening, that would be one of their biggest goals.

Victor Wong (37:35.35)

Yeah. Yeah.

Victor Wong (37:46.349)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Last comment, just one comment on that for what it means for competition, right? Well, it means that I don't have to match up against really, really big people that are ridiculously, that are on steroids because definitely one of my tournaments earlier this year was against, if you do see the video.

Tom Kagy (37:51.152)

Okay.

Tom Kagy (38:00.949)

you

Victor Wong (38:13.006)

it's out there, the guy was way big, was actually a lot bigger than me and clearly enhanced, but I'm not saying I'm not going to use that as an excuse, but you know, people are much more manageable when they get to, when they're under 195 pounds, but also,

Tom Kagy (38:34.04)

So you went down a weight class then between early in the year and now. Okay.

Victor Wong (38:38.358)

Yes, yes. But anyway, on the actual weight loss, yes, it's very boring, but it goes back to what I mentioned earlier about the intentionality.

of eating, right? Because, you a lot of times people just eat things that make them feel good, like, you know, fried chicken, ice cream, etc., etc. So the first thing was just being more intentional about what I was eating. I started to just take inventory of what I was eating throughout the week and realized that I was just kind of…

Tom Kagy (39:01.382)

Yeah.

Victor Wong (39:17.486)

You know, if I was being somewhat okay with my diet, like say like a C, right, for four or five days out of the week, and then my diet goes to, you know, a D, right, for the other two days, you know, that's not really a very good score, right? You know, that's pretty mediocre. So then I…

started to think about the systems that I had in place. So first thing was

thinking about what was I eating throughout the week and what foods did I have access to? Right? And admittedly, you know, even though I did have some, you know, fresh food, fresh foods, right? Like chicken, beef, vegetables, et cetera, et cetera. There were still things in the house that I didn't need, like, you know, chips here and there, you know, and.

Tom Kagy (40:16.049)

Yeah.

Victor Wong (40:16.556)

going out and, you know, like meal delivery apps. So first thing.

Tom Kagy (40:22.017)

What about in our snack room? I think I asked you this, but I this is, I think this is a good question because that's kind of the situation that most people are in. Like, you know, in our office snack. I forgot to mention Victor is our, he's a, graduated with a degree in masters in statistics from UCLA and he is our operations manager. So he has access to our snack room, which is kept extremely well stocked with all kinds of

not particularly healthy snacks by Wendy. tell us about, given the variety of unhealthy snacks in there, what do you do? How do you deal with that when you're two or three doors down from our snack room, our lunch room, what do you do about that? mean, how do you keep from going nuts with the snacks?

Victor Wong (41:13.55)

Yeah, so first off is I started packing some of my own food, more like more food, right? So just today I made myself some oatmeal with Greek yogurt and egg whites and berries and a little bit of honey.

Tom Kagy (41:24.72)

Okay

Victor Wong (41:36.801)

Right? So, you know, now that I have food on hand, I know that if I'm feeling hungry, I have another choice. And secondly, I kind of adjust my lunch accordingly. So.

Tom Kagy (41:44.808)

Yeah, that's a good idea.

Victor Wong (41:55.451)

Usually I prioritize getting something pretty fiber and protein heavy during my lunch because that is what helps curb my appetite. And then knowing that I have snacks in the snack room, instead of like packing any extra rice or tortillas or sweet potatoes and whatnot.

I feel that if I want to cheat a little bit, can get one thing from the snack room.

Tom Kagy (42:25.223)

And what is that thing out of all of the many different all too sweet type of snacks in there? What do get?

Victor Wong (42:32.558)

Usually the RX, those three ingredient RX bars.

Tom Kagy (42:39.067)

You mean those little tiny things that are supposedly made from natural ingredients? Okay.

Victor Wong (42:42.614)

Yeah, with only three ingredients, the almonds, egg, that's say almond, egg white and dates or whatever.

Tom Kagy (42:47.431)

Oh, that one. Okay. Yeah. Those aren't actually that tiny, right? They're like what, 100, 120, 150 calories? 200. Okay. Yeah, that's not terrible. If it has protein in it, right?

Victor Wong (42:55.31)

    1. Yeah, which isn't terrible. And then also the…

      2. Yeah, a little bit. It has some fiber too, so it's not bad. It's mostly carbs though. And then also one compromises the small marshmallow pouches, which are only 45 calories each, but you know, it tastes sweet enough, so it scratches the itch a little. And this kind of goes back to what I was saying about intentionality, I guess.

      Tom Kagy (43:19.877)

      Right.

      Yeah.

      Victor Wong (43:30.702)

      Actually, no, this is another thing. It's this idea that you don't want to fight yourself for too long because a lot of people have this grandiose idea that they are going to a slay gluttony forever, right? But you have to think about that. You need to build systems that you can sustain because it doesn't matter if you reach your goal weight within a week, right?

      Tom Kagy (43:37.147)

      Right.

      Tom Kagy (43:46.961)

      Yeah.

      Tom Kagy (43:53.479)

      Right.

      Tom Kagy (43:57.895)

      Yeah.

      Victor Wong (43:58.431)

      If you can't live like that, then you're not going to maintain that. So you have to have a series of systems that keep you on track. One thing that I started around September, August was my steps. One of the systems I had in place now is getting

      Tom Kagy (44:23.517)

      yeah, your Fitbit watch. Is that a Fitbit or Google watch? What is that?

      Victor Wong (44:26.942)

      Garmin it's a Garmin smartwatch, but any any any watch will do really it tracks my steps and my heart rate and all that and what I and it has a little notification thing that says move if I am sedentary for too long and It it's a it's low energy right and it's a good Metric or it's a good device to have on hand because it keeps you accountable

      Tom Kagy (44:55.301)

      Yeah, yeah. And it keeps you sneaking out of the office to take little walks a couple of times a day, right? Okay. So how many steps are you managing typically these days? I mean, I understand that was a part of your whole weight loss regimen is taking those steps. How many steps do you take a day? Okay. And is that hard to do?

      Victor Wong (45:02.026)

      Yes, yes, because.

      Victor Wong (45:17.902)

      10,000.

      Victor Wong (45:22.158)

      No, it's not, it's not actually not hard to do. If you

      If you spread it out throughout the day and again have a habit or system in place, right? For me, was, it kind of coincided with spending a little less time on my phone really. So, you know, before, earlier this year, would wake up and, you know, check social media, right? And then stay in bed. But then, you know, I started thinking, what am I really doing with this time? So I just started just getting up and just walking without a device.

      device.

      And some days, right, you know, you don't have to get up super early. I was getting up at, you know, seven, right? I could just get up and just walk around the neighborhood and I'd come back at seven thirty and I find that, you know, my work wasn't on fire, that, you know, my house was fine, that, you know, OK. And then, you know, by the time I checked my smartwatch, it already said fifty eight hundred steps. And it's like, wow. You know, I got fifty eight hundred before it was even noon.

      in about a 30 minute walk, okay. Okay, so after that, you know, getting the 10,000 ended up being sort of incidental, right, various activity throughout the house, throughout the house and the office, right, you know, like bathroom breaks and just random, oh, I'm feeling a little sluggish after lunch, let me just walk outside. Eventually I found that, you know, around…

      Tom Kagy (46:45.809)

      Yeah.

      Victor Wong (46:55.15)

      around like say 3, 4, 5 p.m. I'd be at 7, sometimes 8,000 and then again through more incidental activity I could achieve 10,000. Again, people try, the issue that people come across is they see these goals and then they try to think about achieving it.

      as quickly as possible, right? And I've seen people fall off. I've seen people fail. The people I see fail miserably. They try to get their 10,001 one go. And that is honestly very mentally exhausting because that's essentially an entire hour plus of just…

      Tom Kagy (47:31.163)

      Yeah.

      Tom Kagy (47:38.201)

      yeah, that's like five or six, four or five mile hike. A thousand steps, yeah.

      Victor Wong (47:42.144)

      Yes. Yes. And that's mentally exhausting.

      Tom Kagy (47:47.035)

      Now there's another component to your weight loss which you mentioned was significant. was you switched from lifting barbells to kettlebells. Tell us about that and why you did it and what impact that has had on your fitness and your weight.

      Victor Wong (48:08.17)

      Yeah, yeah, sure thing. So in college, the type of lifting I was focused on was powerlifting, which was squat bench deadlift.

      you truck your the contest was having the most the highest total amount of weight lifted across those three lifts. So one repetition maximums for all three. And recently I, you know, through YouTube and the various algorithms, I found this thing called kettlebell sport, which is a similar lifting sport. It's very niche. But

      What it focuses on is these ballistic kettlebell lifts similar to Olympic lifting, right? With clean and jerk, snatch and jerk.

      Right? But instead of a barbell, they use two kettlebells and instead of lifting the most weight overhead for one repetition, it's lifting a moderate weight for time. The contest is usually a 10 minute long set, which is a long time. And the professionals use 32 kilogram, two 32 kilogram kettlebells, which weighs 70 pounds each.

      But again, I don't necessarily participate in the sport itself, but I started using the training methodologies, right? Similar to how you can lift a barbell and not be a powerlifter, right? You can squat bench and deadlift without necessarily being a competitive powerlifter. I just started using the training style of the kettlebell.

      Victor Wong (49:54.997)

      sport lifters just to do a fun experiment and have an alternate way to lift. And also it's a good way of getting a decent workout in without having to drive to a gym because I just need my two weights and I'm all set. But yeah, how a typical kettlebell strength training session would look would be you would be focused on lifting the kettlebells for tempo, right?

      So it'd be, a typical program would be say 20 sets of 15 seconds on and one minute off, right? Yes, yes.

      Tom Kagy (50:35.911)

      20 sets of 15 seconds on? Wow, that's nice. You're talking about what? That's 300 minutes worth of intensive lifting. mean, 300 seconds. OK, yeah, that's what? Like six full minutes worth of intensive lifting. OK. OK.

      Victor Wong (50:45.772)

      Yeah. Well, not 300 minutes, it's 50.

      Victor Wong (50:56.246)

      Yes, yes exactly. Like, full minutes of just working with weights in your hands. Yes, yes.

      Tom Kagy (51:02.823)

      So, and that would be spread out across 10 minutes or 12 minutes.

      Victor Wong (51:09.646)

      Yeah, it could be something like, wait, so that'd be spread across, if it was 20 sets with one minute rest, that'd be spread across like 25, 26 minutes, yeah? Yeah.

      Tom Kagy (51:22.023)

      Okay, and so how did that affect you differently from your old barbell regime?

      Victor Wong (51:29.334)

      Yeah, well, started getting massive veins in my arms. That's one thing. Secondly, I found that my cardiac output was actually…

      Better I could sustain efforts for a long longer time because what kettlebell? Sport is good at is something called strength Endurance right because we have pure endurance and then we have pure strength right along that force velocity curve

      Right? Whereas like pure strength would be a low velocity, but you know, very high force output. So what's interesting about the kettlebells is that it's kind of moderate force output and moderate intensity, but you sustain it over a longer period of time.

      Tom Kagy (52:17.041)

      Yeah.

      Tom Kagy (52:26.447)

      And is that comparable? Is that closer to what happens in a Jiu-Jitsu tournament?

      Victor Wong (52:33.138)

      Yes, in a lot of ways, yes. Because when you connect with another, when you're connecting with another body, right, you have to do these consistent efforts, these consistent efforts of moderate intensity over time, right? You're not just…

      Tom Kagy (52:50.459)

      Right, to keep from getting displaced, I guess, into a disadvantageous position.

      Victor Wong (52:55.948)

      Yes, yes. You constantly have to do all these little maintenance tasks, which it's not like a walk in the park, but it's not like a max effort barbell lift. So you kind of have to, you know, give the other guy a strong shove every so often. And that is a different type of intensity, right? Because you're not necessarily, you know, shoving them or pulling them in at all your, at all your

      Tom Kagy (53:11.495)

      Yeah.

      Victor Wong (53:24.386)

      physical capacity, but you have to sustain these little pushes and pulls that are of moderate force over a longish period of time of say, you know, five to six minutes. And as you mentioned, right, 300 seconds, those 300 seconds, 300 seconds of just pure work. That is the length of a jujitsu match. So.

      Tom Kagy (53:46.023)

      you mean a Jiu-Jitsu match is five minutes? okay. Okay. So I guess in a Jiu-Jitsu match, you're sort of, because you're in constant contact with, you know, lot of different parts of the other guy's body and you're sort of waiting for the opportunity when one, maybe one part of his body seems to be not quite strong enough, right, to resist some move. Okay.

      Victor Wong (53:49.612)

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, five, seven, six minutes, but yeah.

      Victor Wong (54:11.308)

      Yeah. Yeah.

      Tom Kagy (54:16.391)

      So how much of the extra success you've had, how much of that would you credit to your weight loss or how much would you credit to the change in your strength training to kettlebells from barbells?

      Victor Wong (54:31.714)

      I would say, I mean, they're both, they, both kind of go hand in hand together really, right? It's hard to give a percent because one kind of feeds into the other, right? Being lighter, right? Means that, you know, my body has to carry less tissue. So it's a lot less taxing to oxygenate, oxygenate myself.

      Tom Kagy (54:39.728)

      Yeah, yeah, of course.

      Victor Wong (54:55.382)

      And I mean, you know, the novel stimulus from kettlebells, think what has been helpful because it's been training qualities that I haven't really been really targeting over the past decade or so. So, yeah.

      Tom Kagy (55:14.855)

      Okay, so we've been talking for about twice as long as I thought we'd be talking. So I'm gonna just finish off with one more question. And that is, if you go back to 10, 12 years, or actually now it would be more like 14 years back to when you were 15 or 16 and you first saw the…

      You said the moderate, I forgot the term you used, but some guy who didn't look particularly impressive taking on much bigger guys. So.

      Victor Wong (55:45.282)

      you are. You have to be one.

      Victor Wong (55:50.144)

      Yeah.

      Tom Kagy (55:54.855)

      If you were back then, knowing what you know now, is the regimen that you're following now, is that what you would recommend to yourself, your old self?

      Victor Wong (56:10.252)

      Yeah, so, you know, that's a good question. That's a good question. It's hard to say, really, because I like to think that we don't always want to project what we know now onto our younger self, because I feel like there's just certain experiences that are needed, really, because for me…

      Tom Kagy (56:34.439)

      You're right, absolutely, that's true.

      Victor Wong (56:36.942)

      Yeah, because me at the time, was, you know, I actually weigh pretty similar to what I weighed back then, right? Like I'm 195 right now. And, you know, that version of me weighed around like 180 or so.

      Tom Kagy (56:50.503)

      Wow, you're a big kid. You weighed 180 when you were 15? Wow.

      Victor Wong (56:54.742)

      Yeah, yeah, but I was I was also tall back then. was I was around six foot. Yeah.

      Tom Kagy (57:00.881)

      Wow, okay, so yeah, you shot up pretty early then.

      Victor Wong (57:03.904)

      Yes, yes, I was around six foot at that time, but I would say like I.

      almost wouldn't change too much. think the phase of my life when I was lifting heavy, right, I think that was important because all the, you know, extraneous tissue that I built up was very pivotal for preventing injuries and it gave me a good athletic base to start jiu-jitsu in, right? And also another thing is I didn't get, you know, injured a lot when I was younger. I mean, cross-country wore me out because I was unathletic. I didn't have

      a good lifting background. So I think having that sort of just base in the gym was helpful in its own right. So I don't necessarily regret that.

      Tom Kagy (57:52.173)

      What about the running? You running cross country. You're doing a lot of running, sounds like, in your younger years. How did that impact your current condition?

      Victor Wong (57:56.47)

      Yes. Yes.

      Victor Wong (58:01.851)

      I would say that, you know, I feel like I do have a cardio base from that crop from those crop from that cross country time, though.

      I do feel like when I was younger, I could have spent just a little bit more time in the weight room because I did get injured through cross country. And partially I feel like it was because I didn't have good musculature.

      Tom Kagy (58:35.452)

      Interesting. So you actually think that developing stronger muscles can prevent injuries even for something like cross country.

      Victor Wong (58:44.32)

      Yeah, I'd say, you know, stronger muscles, thicker tendons, right? Just having more tissue to displace that repetitive force. But, you know, I think that was just kind of the nature of scholastic sports because the competition schedule was pretty tight back in the, like back in the day because we would be running cross country meets every week, you know, and that meant that, you know, I would have to be peaked for,

      every week, which is really, really hard because like what I saying earlier about the pyramid of physical development, you have to have a

      base of physical attributes to refine into the sport. So if you don't really have a wide pyramid, you're not going to reach a peak. And for me back then, I did kind of run out of season. I'd run a couple times a week, but honestly, it wasn't very serious. And I was more focused on school at that time, but I feel as though, yeah, if anything…

      I probably would make myself lift more in the off season. And if I knew what I knew now, I'd probably beg my parents for maybe a gym membership. And I would just slap myself about having the anxiety of being at a gym alone. Because, you know, being an awkward teenager, it's like, I don't have friends to lift with me. I feel so weird and people are judging me. But, you know.

      looking back, it's like, be quiet, be quiet. Nobody cares. Yes.

      Tom Kagy (01:00:23.111)

      Well, Victor, you've given us a very thorough education on staying fit with a purpose. So, yeah, so I appreciate your time and look forward to talking with you again later, maybe in a few years after a few dozen more tournaments.

      Victor Wong (01:00:45.46)

      Yeah, one thing you raise yet a very good phrase right there, like being fit with a purpose. So one thing, especially when I was taking inventory of my habits in Q3 right around September, you it's

      For your fitness goals, you should start off with an intention, right? A purpose. Because if there is a sort of, if there is like a dream body that you want, you should reverse engineer that, right? If you want to say, look like Brad Pitt from Fight Club or something, right? You have to think about like, okay, what does somebody that looks like Brad Pitt, like what are their daily habits going to look like? What?

      kind of life do they live? Right? And if you are satisfied with a life of say, you know, eating pints of ice cream whenever you want and just, you know, watching Netflix or watching sports or whatever, then you're…

      body is going to look like that. And in a way, that's totally fine. If that is the life you want to live, then your body should reflect that. There's no reason for you to look like Brad Pitt from Fight Club because Brad Pitt from Fight Club is probably not, you know, sitting on the couch and eating ice cream and whatnot.

      Tom Kagy (01:02:07.911)

      You

      Tom Kagy (01:02:12.007)

      Yeah.

      Victor Wong (01:02:13.772)

      So then you have to, you know, ask yourself like, what are these things that you want, right, in life? And how does having that body facilitate those things?

      Tom Kagy (01:02:24.903)

      That's a good point. So basically it's actually a very good piece of unconventional wisdom, which is reverse engineer the body that you want to look like. Okay. Well, thanks a lot, Vic. I appreciate your time. All right. Take it easy.

      Victor Wong (01:02:35.927)

      Yes.

      Victor Wong (01:02:41.014)

      Of course, thank you Tom.

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