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VRTAC Manager Minute: The Real Reasons Behind VR Counselor Turnover (and What You Can Do About It
In this powerful new episode of Manager Minute, host Carol Pankow sits down with renowned researcher and educator Dr. Jim Herbert to unpack one of the most urgent challenges in vocational rehabilitation today: counselor turnover and retention.
Drawing from his brand-new national study on RSA-funded personnel, Jim breaks down the real factors that influence whether VR counselors intend to stay — or walk away. From organizational support and supervisor relationships to workload, generational values, and work–life balance, Jim reveals why retention is a "whole system issue," not a single-variable problem.
He also shares bold, practical solutions for VR agencies, including flexible scheduling, paid internships, rehiring retirees, strengthening supervision practices, and his attention-grabbing recommendation of a 32-hour workweek at full pay.
As a new partner with the VRTAC, Jim also previews upcoming national recruitment and retention initiatives — including a new toolkit for VR HR teams and direct clinical supervision work with a selected state VR agency.
This is an episode every VR director, supervisor, and counselor needs to hear.
Listen now and join the conversation about the future of the VR workforce.
Listen Here
Full Transcript:
{Music}
Jim: Supervisors play an understated but really critical role in the relationship with their counselors and how that contributes to them staying or leaving.
What I suggested was moving to a four day, 32 hour workweek at the same pay.
What are you doing to try to address this? What's working for you, and then be able to kind of put that in a toolkit or a resource? We want to share that nationwide.
So I'm looking for a state VR agency of supervisors and say, yep, let's tangle with that academic from Penn State. Let's do it.
{Music}
Intro Voice: Manager Minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow.
Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today is Doctor Jim Herbert. Jim's a long time researcher, educator and advocate for the field of rehabilitation counseling, and I'm thrilled to share that he will also be working with us on the VRTAC grant in some exciting new recruitment and retention efforts. And today, we get to talk not only about Jim's earlier research on counselor turnover, but also his brand new national study on the long term effectiveness of RSA training and what predicts whether VR personnel intend to stay or leave. So, Jim, this makes me laugh to ask you this. How are things going in your retirement?
Jim: That's right. Yes. As you know, I recently retired, quote unquote, effective July 1st. I'll just tell you that I'm in what they refer to as the honeymoon phase. So basically it's like, oh, I love it. So while I continue to do academic work, such as the project that we're working with you guys on, I'm really super busy with nonacademic projects like gardening and landscaping. And as you saw, we just got a new puppy who consumes quite a lot of my time, so it's going wonderful.
Carol: I love it, I just have to chuckle because you are the busiest retired guy I know, so we were glad we could snag you.
Jim: I'm glad to be snagged.
Carol: That's awesome. So today we're going to dive into a topic that hits close to home for every VR professional. Why rehabilitation counselors leave the field, and what keeps others committed for the long haul. So let's start by imagining a counselor with a full caseload, endless paperwork, competing demands someone who came into this work to make a difference, but they're now struggling to stay motivated. What makes some counselors walk away while others find ways to stay the course? So let's dig into your work. So, Jim, what first drew you to studying counselor retention and turnover in VR?
Jim: Well, as we'll discuss a little bit further, everything else in terms of VR and my work in VR, I have a long history and frankly, a long affection for state counsellors. 40 some years ago when I got into this field, I got to work with a lot of VR counselors and I have so much respect for them in the work that they do. And over the last couple of decades in particular, things are becoming increasingly more and more difficult. And so as we'll talk a little bit, maybe we can get into like your first questions about, well, which I think is a critical one, like, well, why is it that some counselors stay and why do others leave? And so, you know, when you look at that a little bit and feel free to interrupt me because, you know, many academicians, we tend to be a little bit long-winded.
Carol: You're a talker, Jim.
Jim: There you go. So, you know, when you look at it, it's really a combination of individual and situational factors. You know, when you ask counselors, well what attracted you to this? And I think people get drawn into the profession because they want to make a difference. They see people that need help and they feel like, hey, I'm in a position maybe I can offer support or direction and services can make a difference in their lives. So I think that's a big part of it. And then also as a result of that, why they get into that field, I think what happens is over the years, things start to change. They start thinking like, geez, you know what? I thought I got into this field, the job was going to be this way. And really now what I'm finding is it's not that way, or what happens is the thing that drew me in terms of the interaction with people and making the impact. I find myself spending more time with the documentation process and all the rules and regulations, and not as much time to really that I would like to having that one on one contact with people. So I think what happens is their job, their satisfaction changes as a function of kind of, you know, over that period. The other thing I'll just say to expand on why some people stay and why they walk away. I think one of the things in the beginning, especially with new counselors, their knowledge about the world of work and the job as a state VR counselor.
They have a different understanding of what that's all involve. Okay. And one of the things that I think is important to, particularly those individuals, maybe in your audience who are thinking about being a rehab counselor, either switching in or pursuing training. One of the things that I try to stress with my students is make sure you get lots of experience. So while you're going to school and getting your education, do that volunteer work. Do a practicum. Do an internship with a state VR agency. I've said this a thousand, but certainly lots of times I'll say you'll learn more in the field from any lecture that I'm going to give or any rehab professor. So I think what happens with particularly newer counselors, they have a limited understanding about what is this job about and what do you need to do to be a successful rehab. So we only know what we know. So their expectations, I think they get a little disillusioned. A second thing though, as I said, the work of a VR counselor counselor's tough stuff. You know, you look at the research over the decades about things that impact rehab counselors decision and what is the things that they don't like. So lower salaries, comparison to other kind of counseling positions, high caseloads, the paperwork, lack of supervisory support, particularly in the area of clinical supervision.
And we get a chance. I can talk about that a little bit further. There's also, I think, an incongruity between what a counselor has interest in their needs and what they're motivated by and what exists in the work environment. Those factors definitely contribute to work satisfaction. And the other thing we can talk about this in terms of our study, lack of autonomy, the inflexibility, you know, with work schedule and then obviously, you know, kind of personal reasons. So you've got all these factors that counselors have to have some resiliency to try to navigate all these kinds of challenges. And I think that's the key difference. What is it that counselor a can because they all have all these same challenges. Why is a say I can negotiate this whereas counselor B and I can't do that. And I think that probably over simplistic explanation is there is a resiliency for that. Counselors like I can take all of these and then I can look at yep, these are problems. But these other things still are important to me. And I can still kind of navigate that. And then the final thing, and I've become more and more aware of it over the last couple years, multi-generational workforce. So people are living longer. I mean, I, you know, I'm a baby boomer. I think technically I think I'm a late baby boomer, but so basically I'm ancient.
But we have people, you have the Gen Z, and I think that's the group from 97 to 2012. You got the millennials born, you know, 81, 86. You got the Gen Xers and those when you talk with people from different generations. When I talk with my students who mostly the Gen Z millennial type. They have a different view about the world of work. And basically if I had and again, this I don't mean to stereotype, but I think there's some validity in this. And I have a son who's 28 years old and he'll say, dad, you work too damn hard. And so the thing is, is like what he's saying is, and I think others of his generation, there's more to life than work. And so when I look at work, while that's important, I don't have the same kind of importance necessary that you might attach to it. And in fact, what I'm really looking for is a better balance, work life balance. And this is where state VR agencies, I think, kind of fall down because we need to kind of how do we kind of create that better balance so that we have, particularly the younger ones who we invest a lot of money, effort, we want to retain them. We don't want to lose them. So that's probably more than what you wanted.
Carol: It's all good. I have a 28 year old son, too, and we just had this conversation yesterday about work life balance, and I just said how lucky he was to work for a company coming right out of college where he was getting five weeks of vacation a year.
Jim: Yes.
Carol: And I talked to him like when I first started my first five years with the state. You got two weeks? Yeah. And it wasn't until five years you got a little more. And now you can get, like, two and a half or something. It was something horrible like that. But that view that this generation has, it is I think it's healthier, actually, than what we all did. We just put up with some pretty miserable. Yes. Working situations?
Jim: Yes. Absolutely. You're correct.
Carol: Can you walk us through the big picture, what your study set out to understand and why it's so important right now?
Jim: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like your phrase of the big picture. So let me see if I can cut to the chase. Maybe. And so I mentioned a little bit earlier that my work began here a couple of years ago as a result of kind of a pilot study. But basically I was interested because RSA provides a lot of funding for people trying to work as rehab counselors. But my pilot study about 4 or 5 years ago. So the big picture, to put it simply, is we got to do a better job of screening people who are interested in doing this work. And once we do that, we have to do everything we can to make sure that they continue in that. So my research basically is trying to well, let's dive into that and figure out why is it who stays and who leaves.
Carol: So what did your research reveal about the biggest factors that predict whether the counselor stays or leaves?
Jim: Yeah, yeah. All right. Now this one's going to be a little bit more detail a little bit more, uh, hopefully not convoluted.
Carol: For lay people Jim Lay people.
Jim: Yes. That's right. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So without diving too much in statistical models and all that kind of stuff, basically what we were trying to figure out is this if we ask a rehab counselor, are you planning to stay for the next 12 months. Are you planning to leave? So we use that as kind of. Our big question is who's likely to say yes, I'm planning to stay or no, I'm planning to leave in 12 months. So we developed based on the literature that we saw, a hypothetical model that we said essentially this the amount that an organization supports their employees. So what is it that in this case, what is it that the state VR agency does that is designed not only to benefit the organization but also benefit the worker. So providing them with a decent salary, benefits, training, the opportunity for telework, telecommuting, flexible work hours, greater contact with clients. So we said, okay, well, that we know from the literature that seems to be kind of an important component. We also know from and this is work that I've done over the last couple of decades, supervisors play, in my opinion, an understated but really critical role in the relationship with their counselors and how that contributes to them staying or leaving.
And so the degree and type of supervisor support we felt, well, that will impact the employees perception of their jobs, whether they like their jobs, the career opportunities that exist within the agencies, and help them develop the skills that they'll need to grow to move on. So you've got supervisor support, you've got organizational career support. But we said, well, are there any other things? How does that kind of impact. And what we found was, well, we know that if you have a I'll just say for lack of a better simplified way to look at it, a supportive work culture that includes, you know, the supervisor that we know that that can impact the counselors hopefulness about their jobs and the level of engagement that they have. So the degree of vigor, if you will, the dedication that the worker performs, which also impacts job satisfaction. So our conceptual model basically says, well, if we could understand the complex relationship between all of the kinds of organizational supports of which there are many and we haven't identified, but just using that general term, the perceptions of how our individual counselor feels that they're doing in that job, the degree of satisfaction they get from it, and the amount of supervision, the level type of supervision supervisor provides.
If all those factors are positive, if you will, they're more likely to stay as opposed to if they find the organization not supportive. They don't have a supervisor who's supportive, they don't feel engaged in the work that they do. So that's basically kind of what our model and what we found was that that combination of Organization support being hopeful about the job that I do. Having a supportive supervisor that promotes work engagement. Let me just use this analogy. If I had a pizza pie that said, this pizza pie represents all of people's intention to leave. Okay, well, what I just said that was if you have good support, organization supervisor, you're engaged. Half of that pizza pie is attributed to those factors. So that's a lot of pizza. All right. That's a big part of it. So what that means is if we think about for state VR agencies, what is it that we do as an organization that tries to promote that kind of support? What do we do in terms of our supervisors that are engaging with their counselors and provide that kind of support? If we can take a look at those factors, then we're more likely for those counselors say, you know what, I'm going to stick around.
Carol: So did you have any findings that surprised you?
Jim: Yeah, there were a couple of things. One of the things I know we're talking about state voc rehab. Our study of 1000 rehab counselors did not only address state VR, but also those in private for practice proprietary public nonprofit agencies and facilities. We also looked at counselors and administrators. So we're kind of interested in, well, is the intent to leave the same regardless of what your job title? In other words, does a counselor sort of have a different kind of intent than a supervisor, than an administrator? And we're also interested in well, does a counselor's intent vary as a function of the work settings? So in other words, our state VR counsel is more likely to express an intent to leave than those in private for practice rehab or nonprofit rehab. And basically what we found was when you look at all those outcome variables that we talked about work engagement, career support, job satisfaction, supervisor support, reasons for leaving, reasons for staying. When we look at that, what we found, and this was somewhat surprising to me, we found that there's really no difference whether across setting or job type. So in other words, the factors that motivate someone to stay or to leave are pretty much the same, regardless of your work setting or your job title. So that to me was a little bit surprising, because in my conversations and talking with counselors at various settings, somehow I always, I guess going into this truthfully, I was expecting that there would be a difference and particularly be more dissatisfaction with state VR than the other settings. And what we found was that's not the case. So the reasons for staying or leaving are essentially the same across settings and work title. So I just raised this finding because I think state VR unfairly receives criticism that their work environments particularly challenging and trying to retain workers. So I'll just say that every work setting has its own unique aspects to it.
Carol: Yeah, the grass is not always greener. You always think that. And I have found over time, like working with people where you have that grass is greener mentality. No matter where they go, they always run into the same issues, no matter where they've changed the job. There's some people I've known for several decades who have always been kind of unhappy in the current setting, and they go to the new one and they're happy for a hot minute, but then they're unhappy there, too. So it's kind of more about them and whatever they're bringing to that or how they relate to those new jobs. It's so interesting. That strikes me as an interesting finding.
Jim: Yeah, a lot of this was gleaned from interactions and stories and things that I heard from counselors, like, why do you stay? Why do you leave? And again, to me it's just amazing Easing that the similarity that exists. So clearly, while there's some nuances that, you know, a counselor will complain about large caseloads or noncompetitive salaries, limited schedule and flexibility, those kinds of things. One of the things that while there are some differences in terms as you move up the career ladder, if you will, as an administrator, maybe a little bit different, but the role of the supervisor, I think this was another thing that was a little bit I kind of knew, but it really reinforced it was how important their role is in contributing to the work climate of the counselor. And like I've said to the supervisors, and I've trained a lot of folks across the country, counselor job is tough. Supervisor's job is way tough because they have a lot of times. And what's happening now with the vacancies, the supervisors are now asked to pick up caseloads of counselors. So not only do they have to do the job of managing 5 to 10 counselors, now they have components, so it makes it really difficult. And I think when I listen to the stories, those are the things that kind of like really strike me as unfortunately, I think just getting tougher and tougher each year.
Carol: 100%, kind of in reading some of your information and you go, okay, yeah. You think the counselor, all right, now they're going to be the supervisor. And it's going to be better and easier somehow easier. And it's not like they just realize how exponentially the job gets so much tougher. It doesn't necessarily get better. You might get paid a little more as you move up the food chain, but the work gets more complex, and then you're dealing with all the people part of the job.
Jim: Absolutely. And you really hit it on. An important part is that unfortunately, most super like I do training in clinical supervision. So basically I train supervisors how to help their counselors become better counselors and the relationship they have with their clients. But what you find is, I'd say 99% of the supervisors that I've worked with, what do they know about clinical supervision? And, well, really not too much. And well, why is that? Because they didn't get that in their training. So they'll get all about the administrative components, the policies and procedures. And that's important. But how do you help your counselor with the relationship that they have with their individual customers? That relationship is so critical because if that relationship isn't positive, you're going to have a poor voc rehab outcome.
Carol: Well, and those supervisors may have also not been you know, they didn't get any sort of clinical supervision when they were a counselor, so they moved to supervisor. It's not like they magically had that appear somewhere, right? So they don't have no frame of reference on how to even do that.
Jim: Yeah, you're absolutely correct.
Carol: So I know you stated, so some VR counselors, the state VR counselors, you know, they report more stress and paperwork, but yet they still find satisfaction in stay. So what distinguishes that? Like what distinguishes those who stay from those who leave.
Jim: Yeah, yeah. Well, this gets to the earlier thing. We were kind of talking a little bit about the issue about resiliency, the issue about when the stresses of the job, when things are happening, sometimes will happen. Counselors will kind of take that on and they pay kind of a high emotional price, the investment with that. And so it's the counselor who can kind of keep that in check, cannot sort of internalize that. I can still do good work. Yes. It would be nice if I had lower case loads. Yes, it'd be nice if I got more money. Yes, it would be nice if this and that changed. So I think we talked a little bit about this earlier, but I think what really kind of differentiates those two counselors is just that ability to not kind of internalize that and as a result, still able to kind of negotiate the things that are necessary to move the client forward. Because if you kind of take all this in, you know, you go home at the end of the day, you're just kind of wiped. And so that's really to me, kind of a key component.
Carol: Do you think that's something that can be taught like, or is that kind of how people are? That's the thing I wonder, like, Can you really teach someone how to, like, not get so emotionally involved into the situation? I mean, I suppose there's some techniques or something, but yeah, it might very well be just kind of the person you are and how you respond to things around you just in your life overall.
Jim: Right. Yeah, that's a good point. And some would certainly say, and there's something to be said, sort of the nature nurture environment kind of issue. Yeah. There's clearly people that in terms of just kind of their makeup, this is how they, you know, they just they see the world half full, the glass is half full. I had a clerical person years and was the most upbeat. In fact, I used to call her Susie Sunshine. It's like no matter what, she just didn't get down. And I thought, is this for real? Are you on some sort of happy? What's this all about? So that's there's a part of that. But yes, it can be taught. And so a lot of it is, you know, in terms of our behaviors as well, how's that influence its influence in our thinking. So you can get very catastrophic. Like, you know, I got a caseload of 150. I'm stressed. You know, I can't get to all my clients. And, you know, I should be able to, you know, answer them within a 24 hour period. And if somebody asks to see me, I should be. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of things that you should. And yes, it would be nice, but you have to kind of ask yourself, given the resources that I have, I have to be realistic about this. And so it sounds maybe a little trite, but in some ways it's kind of like, you know, you got to cut yourself some slack. You have to kind of say, yes, if I had 25 clients, yes, life would be different, but I don't. Sometimes you can explain this to your consumers and sometimes, yeah, they get it. In other cases it's not. But you can't let that define who you are because if you do, you're setting yourself up for unrealistic expectations which aren't going to be fulfilled. So you're going to be kind of frustrated and yeah, probably leave the organization. You know, I was like, hey, this isn't for me.
Carol: So it's really a practice thing. I mean, it's probably a time thing and a practice to kind.
Jim: Of has to be. Yeah, it has to be intentional. And this is where in terms of a good supervisor working with the counselor, it's like, you know, boy, you seem kind of, you know, really stressed. What's that about? What's going on. What's the belief system that you're operating from. What are your expectations you're placing on yourself? And sometimes it seems so obvious to the outsider. And I can just say in my own personal life, I mean, how many times is like, you know, hey, this is really obvious to somebody else. she's new news to me.
Carol: Yeah.
Jim: sometimes. Yeah. You gotta have that outside perspective to kind of like, let's take a look about what? What are those messages you're telling yourself? And are they realistic?
Carol: Right. What do you think are the most actionable steps that VR agencies can take right now?
Jim: Well, I wanted to give a shout out to a couple scholars. Yes, I've done some work in this. Doctor Landon from Utah State has done some work in this. Doctor Wu from northeastern Illinois, doctor McFarland from San Diego State. Yes, I know Fred's retired, but you know his legacy. So besides my own work, those folks, if you look at some of their work and my work and the team that I've worked with, there's a couple things. And this is like a long, long list because I started kind of writing a few things out here. The obvious thing is offer competitive salaries, but given the historical and current climate, it doesn't bode well for states are going to say, oh, we're going to increase your budget by 15% or 20%, which would allow you to hire more counselors at a competitive rate. So with that being said, I proposed at a CSAVR conference a couple years ago what seemed to be kind of a radical recommendation. Let me start with the most radical thing first, and then we'll get into some other. So the radical thing that I proposed was I recommended that we move from a five day to a four day workweek. Now, I'm not talking about 40 hours, ten hours a day, four days of work. Because remember, we're talking about the culture and the climate. So working those extra two hours every day is like, well, yeah, I'd have a day off, but is that really going to be meaningful? So given that states a lot of times don't have as much influence in their budget, what I suggested was moving to a four day, 32 hour workweek at the same pay. Now, I can imagine some of you...
Carol: Heads blew up, They did, yeah.
Jim: Yeah. That's right. Yeah, exactly. Like, who is this academic? What the heck does he know? So before you discount that, let me just kind of invite those that might push back on that and say, well, just for a moment, just indulge me. Just say like, well, let's just say if we did that. Okay. Well, first off, I would offer that the average work week, I think, for most state VR counselors is 37.5, so it's not really technically 40 hours of work. You'll remember my earlier comments about the younger generational workers. They want to see that kind of work life balance. So having greater time to devote to myself, my family, recreation, other pursuits, those become increasingly important. And again, I'll just offer this. We didn't talk about this as a result in the study, but if you need any further evidence of the support for this recommendation, one of the research questions that we asked an ancillary one, but we basically asked them about what are your thoughts or feelings about a 32 hour workweek? And we looked at intent to leave and surprise, surprise, yeah, that was a significant predictor in terms of yeah, that would cause me to stay.
All right. Let's unpack this a little bit further. I would offer to the State Counselor because again, we know what we know. We've always been 40 hours a week. And as I talked at the conference and I wrote in a Journal of Rehab article, you know, before the work week used to be 50, 60 hours a week, that was normal. You work Saturdays. All right. And it wasn't until Henry Ford said, you know what? Maybe we gotta rethink this thing. And, you know, he was proposing. Let's move to a 40 hour. Well, that was just heresy, because we just knew what we knew. So when we asked counselors and supervisors how much of an impact a 32 hour work week with no salary reduction, 75% of counselors and supervisors say that has a significant or very significant influence in me remaining on their jobs. My thought is, given we're not going to get more tip, most likely not a whole influx in terms of additional revenue for states. What can we control? Is this something that we can control? So that's like my radical. Okay.
Carol: Yeah. You're Henry Ford now Jim.
Jim: Yeah, I'm Henry Ford.
Carol: I love it, I love it.
Jim: I wish I was, at least I wish I was. I wish I was a descendant of Henry. so a less controversial recommendation. And frankly, it's funny because I see us kind of going back now and not in a good way. State VR agencies, while they offer telework, there are more and more state VR agencies are kind of like, well, let's get back to the good old days. Well, first off, I'm not sure that was kind of the good old days. I mean, clearly the pandemic contributed to a major societal change about rethinking about our work schedule. Before that, if the counselor said, hey, I'd like to stay at home for about three days a week and do my work. They'd say, that ain't happening. And so actually, what we find is, yes, you can do this job from home. And, you know, we have the markers, the accountability in terms of our statuses and, you know, the progress that you're making. So I mean, that's the bottom line. Are you getting closed successful rehabilitations with your clients. But now kind of what's happening is that we seems, at least what I've heard through talking with counselors and supervisors throughout the United States is there seems to be kind of a return of offering on site rehabilitation services. You know, that's something that I would ask us to really kind of take a look at that, and not only in terms of the telework, but let's think about the work flexibility. How often do we offer our counselors part time work or even evening hours? A lot of people retiring. That's a tremendous amount of experience that's going out the door. And you just wonder sometimes like, okay, so you want to retire. Great. Wonderful. But well, it's kind of like that's kind of what happened.
Carol: That's what happened to you, Jim.
Jim: That's right. So then the thing is kind of say, well, what if you work part time? What if you work X amount of hours a day or a week or whatever? So rehiring maybe recently retired workers. And again, let's focus on those that had proven track records. So, hey, they're a great rehab counselors and, yeah, we'd like to have them back. That's something could be done. Another thing that I think that could be done, and we used to do this in Pennsylvania, and unfortunately, it's at least as far as I know, we're not currently doing it. And if we are. My apologies to POVR - Pennsylvania Office of Vocational Rehabilitation, but provide paid internships and if possible, offer employee benefits to graduate students who complete their clinical internships with the state VR agency. And the great thing about this from a state VR, you get to see, you know, when you interview and screen, a candidate, maybe you spend an hour or two with them. That's a lot different from seeing somebody five days a week over a, you know, five, six month period. You got a lot of information about this person. And also you have then kind of a buy in from them like, yeah, this gives me some idea about what this job is all about. So you know, doing that and I know in Pennsylvania historically, they would hold back some of their training dollars to help kind of support that.
Maybe that's something could we look at? If we do? Just a little ancillary comment I'd make. Students graduate in May, August and December. So if you can somehow when you know, like, okay, we're going to have a vacancy, it'd be wonderful if you can kind of coordinate that with the times they graduate. So if, you know, for example, someone's going to retire and maybe they're going to retire in May rather than waiting May to start that job search, maybe start that job search March or April. And then because of the two months, oftentimes it takes to go through the screening and all the documentation and all that, then you can kind of coincide that, you know, and target it with those dates. Because I've had a number of students say, yeah, I'd like to work for the state VR, but I'm not waiting around 2 or 3 months. I need to get a job. I need to start making some money. So related to that, another recommendation I have is and some states are doing this trying to reexamine their screening procedure. So let's take a look and say look, what can we do to reduce the time between when we know a vacancy exists and the time of hire. So, as I said, most people, whether you're a student or not, unless you're currently working, you can't wait for 2 or 3 months.
Other things that they could do is, you know, we talked earlier about the importance of the work climate. You know, we've got to monitor that. So we said that one's intention to leave that's mitigated based on whether the counselor feels they're engaged in that process. So that's an important predictor. And as it relates to that specific variable it's about 40%. Well that's a big deal. So the message is if I feel engaged in this process I'm more likely, more likely to stay. So we talked also about the role of the supervisor and how a lot of supervisors, unfortunately, while they do really great on the administrative components, the clinical components, the sit down with the counselor and let's take a look at your relationships with your clients and what I can do to try to help you to have a good, effective working relationship because I know if the counselor has that relationship with you, they're going to be more likely to get successful rehab. So constant assessment about what's going on now, how can we do that better? And, you know, through maybe stay interviews or, or even exit interviews to find out what did we do wrong. Is there anything we could do better? It's difficult because we have to be able to hear kind of things that maybe we don't like to hear.
Carol: We don't like to hear.
Jim: Yeah. And as you know, that's kind of a big part of where we're going in terms of my work with you guys.
Carol: Yes. So on that note, you are going to be working with the new VRTAC and some recruitment retention pieces. So you want to talk a little bit about that. What that works going to look like.
Jim: Yeah yeah yeah. And you know sometimes somebody said yes I'm very excited. And no you're not. No I actually I am very excited about this work and I really feel very fortunate. You guys offer me the opportunity to partner with you. So building on some of the stuff, we talked a little bit about, one of the things that we plan to do is develop this toolkit. And basically what that means is we're hoping to provide a resource for human resource managers, in particular, who work in the state VR program to try to help them and also state VR leadership teams, but also to help them address kind of the recruitment and retention problems that have been so well documented over the years. So I've begun looking at some of the existing literature as a way to kind of framework. Okay, so we've talked about a lot of this already. What is it that predicts who's going to stay? Who's going to leave? We haven't talked too much about the recruitment aspect, but that's another thing that we're going to address to say, okay, what do we know already in terms of the literature? But that's only a part of it. And the other thing that I'm really kind of excited about is the opportunity to work with the HR Resource Professional Group, professional teams. John Walsh I know has been involved with that as well. And basically what I'm hoping to do is because I know when you talk with states leadership team, sometimes a state will be doing something. I'm getting excited. Just kind of talk aboaut I can't even get my words out.
They'll be doing something you think, man, you know, that is really cool. That's a great idea. Yeah. I wonder how nobody else, you know, knows about that. So it's amazing to me kind of the creativity that people have, but they just don't know about it. And so what I'm hoping to do is engage in a series of kind of focus groups, questions that gets to that, like not just what are the problems. I think we have a pretty good handle on that. But then what solutions? What are you doing to try to address this, what's working for you, and then be able to kind of put that in a toolkit or a resource that all states can use. So from the collective experiences from the various state VR agencies, we want to share that nationwide. And if everything goes according to plan, we're hoping to have that available in about a year, I think.
Carol: Yeah, a little less than a year.
Jim: Oh, a little.
Carol: Okay, a little less Jim. Let's see.
Jim: Okay.
Carol: Reining it in.
Jim: Yes, yes.
Carol: And then the other fun thing, you'll get to work with a state.
Jim: That's right. Thank you. The other component I've done clinical supervision training for about 12 different states. And I've met with each over the last probably 15 years. Each time I do it, I refine it a little better, a little better. And so I think I've got things down pretty good now. So I'm really interested now to work with the state to try to help their supervisors to work more effectively with their counselors, and in particular, how can I help supervisors to help their counselors become more effective as a counselor? And I have four kind of group supervision approaches that I know from. My research has proven pretty effective. So I'm looking for a state VR agency of supervisor and say, yep, let's tangle with that academic from Penn State. Let's do it. So that's the other component to it as well. Yes.
Carol: Yeah, we're really excited about that work. So Jim, thanks again for joining us on the manager minute. I really appreciate you being here. And for our listeners, if Jim has said something that is sparking your interest, especially with some work he's going to do with the VRTAC, please do reach out to us if you are interested in that for your agency. And until next time, everyone keep doing the great work that changes lives. Appreciate you. Have a great day!
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Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.
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In this powerful new episode of Manager Minute, host Carol Pankow sits down with renowned researcher and educator Dr. Jim Herbert to unpack one of the most urgent challenges in vocational rehabilitation today: counselor turnover and retention.
Drawing from his brand-new national study on RSA-funded personnel, Jim breaks down the real factors that influence whether VR counselors intend to stay — or walk away. From organizational support and supervisor relationships to workload, generational values, and work–life balance, Jim reveals why retention is a "whole system issue," not a single-variable problem.
He also shares bold, practical solutions for VR agencies, including flexible scheduling, paid internships, rehiring retirees, strengthening supervision practices, and his attention-grabbing recommendation of a 32-hour workweek at full pay.
As a new partner with the VRTAC, Jim also previews upcoming national recruitment and retention initiatives — including a new toolkit for VR HR teams and direct clinical supervision work with a selected state VR agency.
This is an episode every VR director, supervisor, and counselor needs to hear.
Listen now and join the conversation about the future of the VR workforce.
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Full Transcript:
{Music}
Jim: Supervisors play an understated but really critical role in the relationship with their counselors and how that contributes to them staying or leaving.
What I suggested was moving to a four day, 32 hour workweek at the same pay.
What are you doing to try to address this? What's working for you, and then be able to kind of put that in a toolkit or a resource? We want to share that nationwide.
So I'm looking for a state VR agency of supervisors and say, yep, let's tangle with that academic from Penn State. Let's do it.
{Music}
Intro Voice: Manager Minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow.
Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today is Doctor Jim Herbert. Jim's a long time researcher, educator and advocate for the field of rehabilitation counseling, and I'm thrilled to share that he will also be working with us on the VRTAC grant in some exciting new recruitment and retention efforts. And today, we get to talk not only about Jim's earlier research on counselor turnover, but also his brand new national study on the long term effectiveness of RSA training and what predicts whether VR personnel intend to stay or leave. So, Jim, this makes me laugh to ask you this. How are things going in your retirement?
Jim: That's right. Yes. As you know, I recently retired, quote unquote, effective July 1st. I'll just tell you that I'm in what they refer to as the honeymoon phase. So basically it's like, oh, I love it. So while I continue to do academic work, such as the project that we're working with you guys on, I'm really super busy with nonacademic projects like gardening and landscaping. And as you saw, we just got a new puppy who consumes quite a lot of my time, so it's going wonderful.
Carol: I love it, I just have to chuckle because you are the busiest retired guy I know, so we were glad we could snag you.
Jim: I'm glad to be snagged.
Carol: That's awesome. So today we're going to dive into a topic that hits close to home for every VR professional. Why rehabilitation counselors leave the field, and what keeps others committed for the long haul. So let's start by imagining a counselor with a full caseload, endless paperwork, competing demands someone who came into this work to make a difference, but they're now struggling to stay motivated. What makes some counselors walk away while others find ways to stay the course? So let's dig into your work. So, Jim, what first drew you to studying counselor retention and turnover in VR?
Jim: Well, as we'll discuss a little bit further, everything else in terms of VR and my work in VR, I have a long history and frankly, a long affection for state counsellors. 40 some years ago when I got into this field, I got to work with a lot of VR counselors and I have so much respect for them in the work that they do. And over the last couple of decades in particular, things are becoming increasingly more and more difficult. And so as we'll talk a little bit, maybe we can get into like your first questions about, well, which I think is a critical one, like, well, why is it that some counselors stay and why do others leave? And so, you know, when you look at that a little bit and feel free to interrupt me because, you know, many academicians, we tend to be a little bit long-winded.
Carol: You're a talker, Jim.
Jim: There you go. So, you know, when you look at it, it's really a combination of individual and situational factors. You know, when you ask counselors, well what attracted you to this? And I think people get drawn into the profession because they want to make a difference. They see people that need help and they feel like, hey, I'm in a position maybe I can offer support or direction and services can make a difference in their lives. So I think that's a big part of it. And then also as a result of that, why they get into that field, I think what happens is over the years, things start to change. They start thinking like, geez, you know what? I thought I got into this field, the job was going to be this way. And really now what I'm finding is it's not that way, or what happens is the thing that drew me in terms of the interaction with people and making the impact. I find myself spending more time with the documentation process and all the rules and regulations, and not as much time to really that I would like to having that one on one contact with people. So I think what happens is their job, their satisfaction changes as a function of kind of, you know, over that period. The other thing I'll just say to expand on why some people stay and why they walk away. I think one of the things in the beginning, especially with new counselors, their knowledge about the world of work and the job as a state VR counselor.
They have a different understanding of what that's all involve. Okay. And one of the things that I think is important to, particularly those individuals, maybe in your audience who are thinking about being a rehab counselor, either switching in or pursuing training. One of the things that I try to stress with my students is make sure you get lots of experience. So while you're going to school and getting your education, do that volunteer work. Do a practicum. Do an internship with a state VR agency. I've said this a thousand, but certainly lots of times I'll say you'll learn more in the field from any lecture that I'm going to give or any rehab professor. So I think what happens with particularly newer counselors, they have a limited understanding about what is this job about and what do you need to do to be a successful rehab. So we only know what we know. So their expectations, I think they get a little disillusioned. A second thing though, as I said, the work of a VR counselor counselor's tough stuff. You know, you look at the research over the decades about things that impact rehab counselors decision and what is the things that they don't like. So lower salaries, comparison to other kind of counseling positions, high caseloads, the paperwork, lack of supervisory support, particularly in the area of clinical supervision.
And we get a chance. I can talk about that a little bit further. There's also, I think, an incongruity between what a counselor has interest in their needs and what they're motivated by and what exists in the work environment. Those factors definitely contribute to work satisfaction. And the other thing we can talk about this in terms of our study, lack of autonomy, the inflexibility, you know, with work schedule and then obviously, you know, kind of personal reasons. So you've got all these factors that counselors have to have some resiliency to try to navigate all these kinds of challenges. And I think that's the key difference. What is it that counselor a can because they all have all these same challenges. Why is a say I can negotiate this whereas counselor B and I can't do that. And I think that probably over simplistic explanation is there is a resiliency for that. Counselors like I can take all of these and then I can look at yep, these are problems. But these other things still are important to me. And I can still kind of navigate that. And then the final thing, and I've become more and more aware of it over the last couple years, multi-generational workforce. So people are living longer. I mean, I, you know, I'm a baby boomer. I think technically I think I'm a late baby boomer, but so basically I'm ancient.
But we have people, you have the Gen Z, and I think that's the group from 97 to 2012. You got the millennials born, you know, 81, 86. You got the Gen Xers and those when you talk with people from different generations. When I talk with my students who mostly the Gen Z millennial type. They have a different view about the world of work. And basically if I had and again, this I don't mean to stereotype, but I think there's some validity in this. And I have a son who's 28 years old and he'll say, dad, you work too damn hard. And so the thing is, is like what he's saying is, and I think others of his generation, there's more to life than work. And so when I look at work, while that's important, I don't have the same kind of importance necessary that you might attach to it. And in fact, what I'm really looking for is a better balance, work life balance. And this is where state VR agencies, I think, kind of fall down because we need to kind of how do we kind of create that better balance so that we have, particularly the younger ones who we invest a lot of money, effort, we want to retain them. We don't want to lose them. So that's probably more than what you wanted.
Carol: It's all good. I have a 28 year old son, too, and we just had this conversation yesterday about work life balance, and I just said how lucky he was to work for a company coming right out of college where he was getting five weeks of vacation a year.
Jim: Yes.
Carol: And I talked to him like when I first started my first five years with the state. You got two weeks? Yeah. And it wasn't until five years you got a little more. And now you can get, like, two and a half or something. It was something horrible like that. But that view that this generation has, it is I think it's healthier, actually, than what we all did. We just put up with some pretty miserable. Yes. Working situations?
Jim: Yes. Absolutely. You're correct.
Carol: Can you walk us through the big picture, what your study set out to understand and why it's so important right now?
Jim: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like your phrase of the big picture. So let me see if I can cut to the chase. Maybe. And so I mentioned a little bit earlier that my work began here a couple of years ago as a result of kind of a pilot study. But basically I was interested because RSA provides a lot of funding for people trying to work as rehab counselors. But my pilot study about 4 or 5 years ago. So the big picture, to put it simply, is we got to do a better job of screening people who are interested in doing this work. And once we do that, we have to do everything we can to make sure that they continue in that. So my research basically is trying to well, let's dive into that and figure out why is it who stays and who leaves.
Carol: So what did your research reveal about the biggest factors that predict whether the counselor stays or leaves?
Jim: Yeah, yeah. All right. Now this one's going to be a little bit more detail a little bit more, uh, hopefully not convoluted.
Carol: For lay people Jim Lay people.
Jim: Yes. That's right. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So without diving too much in statistical models and all that kind of stuff, basically what we were trying to figure out is this if we ask a rehab counselor, are you planning to stay for the next 12 months. Are you planning to leave? So we use that as kind of. Our big question is who's likely to say yes, I'm planning to stay or no, I'm planning to leave in 12 months. So we developed based on the literature that we saw, a hypothetical model that we said essentially this the amount that an organization supports their employees. So what is it that in this case, what is it that the state VR agency does that is designed not only to benefit the organization but also benefit the worker. So providing them with a decent salary, benefits, training, the opportunity for telework, telecommuting, flexible work hours, greater contact with clients. So we said, okay, well, that we know from the literature that seems to be kind of an important component. We also know from and this is work that I've done over the last couple of decades, supervisors play, in my opinion, an understated but really critical role in the relationship with their counselors and how that contributes to them staying or leaving.
And so the degree and type of supervisor support we felt, well, that will impact the employees perception of their jobs, whether they like their jobs, the career opportunities that exist within the agencies, and help them develop the skills that they'll need to grow to move on. So you've got supervisor support, you've got organizational career support. But we said, well, are there any other things? How does that kind of impact. And what we found was, well, we know that if you have a I'll just say for lack of a better simplified way to look at it, a supportive work culture that includes, you know, the supervisor that we know that that can impact the counselors hopefulness about their jobs and the level of engagement that they have. So the degree of vigor, if you will, the dedication that the worker performs, which also impacts job satisfaction. So our conceptual model basically says, well, if we could understand the complex relationship between all of the kinds of organizational supports of which there are many and we haven't identified, but just using that general term, the perceptions of how our individual counselor feels that they're doing in that job, the degree of satisfaction they get from it, and the amount of supervision, the level type of supervision supervisor provides.
If all those factors are positive, if you will, they're more likely to stay as opposed to if they find the organization not supportive. They don't have a supervisor who's supportive, they don't feel engaged in the work that they do. So that's basically kind of what our model and what we found was that that combination of Organization support being hopeful about the job that I do. Having a supportive supervisor that promotes work engagement. Let me just use this analogy. If I had a pizza pie that said, this pizza pie represents all of people's intention to leave. Okay, well, what I just said that was if you have good support, organization supervisor, you're engaged. Half of that pizza pie is attributed to those factors. So that's a lot of pizza. All right. That's a big part of it. So what that means is if we think about for state VR agencies, what is it that we do as an organization that tries to promote that kind of support? What do we do in terms of our supervisors that are engaging with their counselors and provide that kind of support? If we can take a look at those factors, then we're more likely for those counselors say, you know what, I'm going to stick around.
Carol: So did you have any findings that surprised you?
Jim: Yeah, there were a couple of things. One of the things I know we're talking about state voc rehab. Our study of 1000 rehab counselors did not only address state VR, but also those in private for practice proprietary public nonprofit agencies and facilities. We also looked at counselors and administrators. So we're kind of interested in, well, is the intent to leave the same regardless of what your job title? In other words, does a counselor sort of have a different kind of intent than a supervisor, than an administrator? And we're also interested in well, does a counselor's intent vary as a function of the work settings? So in other words, our state VR counsel is more likely to express an intent to leave than those in private for practice rehab or nonprofit rehab. And basically what we found was when you look at all those outcome variables that we talked about work engagement, career support, job satisfaction, supervisor support, reasons for leaving, reasons for staying. When we look at that, what we found, and this was somewhat surprising to me, we found that there's really no difference whether across setting or job type. So in other words, the factors that motivate someone to stay or to leave are pretty much the same, regardless of your work setting or your job title. So that to me was a little bit surprising, because in my conversations and talking with counselors at various settings, somehow I always, I guess going into this truthfully, I was expecting that there would be a difference and particularly be more dissatisfaction with state VR than the other settings. And what we found was that's not the case. So the reasons for staying or leaving are essentially the same across settings and work title. So I just raised this finding because I think state VR unfairly receives criticism that their work environments particularly challenging and trying to retain workers. So I'll just say that every work setting has its own unique aspects to it.
Carol: Yeah, the grass is not always greener. You always think that. And I have found over time, like working with people where you have that grass is greener mentality. No matter where they go, they always run into the same issues, no matter where they've changed the job. There's some people I've known for several decades who have always been kind of unhappy in the current setting, and they go to the new one and they're happy for a hot minute, but then they're unhappy there, too. So it's kind of more about them and whatever they're bringing to that or how they relate to those new jobs. It's so interesting. That strikes me as an interesting finding.
Jim: Yeah, a lot of this was gleaned from interactions and stories and things that I heard from counselors, like, why do you stay? Why do you leave? And again, to me it's just amazing Easing that the similarity that exists. So clearly, while there's some nuances that, you know, a counselor will complain about large caseloads or noncompetitive salaries, limited schedule and flexibility, those kinds of things. One of the things that while there are some differences in terms as you move up the career ladder, if you will, as an administrator, maybe a little bit different, but the role of the supervisor, I think this was another thing that was a little bit I kind of knew, but it really reinforced it was how important their role is in contributing to the work climate of the counselor. And like I've said to the supervisors, and I've trained a lot of folks across the country, counselor job is tough. Supervisor's job is way tough because they have a lot of times. And what's happening now with the vacancies, the supervisors are now asked to pick up caseloads of counselors. So not only do they have to do the job of managing 5 to 10 counselors, now they have components, so it makes it really difficult. And I think when I listen to the stories, those are the things that kind of like really strike me as unfortunately, I think just getting tougher and tougher each year.
Carol: 100%, kind of in reading some of your information and you go, okay, yeah. You think the counselor, all right, now they're going to be the supervisor. And it's going to be better and easier somehow easier. And it's not like they just realize how exponentially the job gets so much tougher. It doesn't necessarily get better. You might get paid a little more as you move up the food chain, but the work gets more complex, and then you're dealing with all the people part of the job.
Jim: Absolutely. And you really hit it on. An important part is that unfortunately, most super like I do training in clinical supervision. So basically I train supervisors how to help their counselors become better counselors and the relationship they have with their clients. But what you find is, I'd say 99% of the supervisors that I've worked with, what do they know about clinical supervision? And, well, really not too much. And well, why is that? Because they didn't get that in their training. So they'll get all about the administrative components, the policies and procedures. And that's important. But how do you help your counselor with the relationship that they have with their individual customers? That relationship is so critical because if that relationship isn't positive, you're going to have a poor voc rehab outcome.
Carol: Well, and those supervisors may have also not been you know, they didn't get any sort of clinical supervision when they were a counselor, so they moved to supervisor. It's not like they magically had that appear somewhere, right? So they don't have no frame of reference on how to even do that.
Jim: Yeah, you're absolutely correct.
Carol: So I know you stated, so some VR counselors, the state VR counselors, you know, they report more stress and paperwork, but yet they still find satisfaction in stay. So what distinguishes that? Like what distinguishes those who stay from those who leave.
Jim: Yeah, yeah. Well, this gets to the earlier thing. We were kind of talking a little bit about the issue about resiliency, the issue about when the stresses of the job, when things are happening, sometimes will happen. Counselors will kind of take that on and they pay kind of a high emotional price, the investment with that. And so it's the counselor who can kind of keep that in check, cannot sort of internalize that. I can still do good work. Yes. It would be nice if I had lower case loads. Yes, it'd be nice if I got more money. Yes, it would be nice if this and that changed. So I think we talked a little bit about this earlier, but I think what really kind of differentiates those two counselors is just that ability to not kind of internalize that and as a result, still able to kind of negotiate the things that are necessary to move the client forward. Because if you kind of take all this in, you know, you go home at the end of the day, you're just kind of wiped. And so that's really to me, kind of a key component.
Carol: Do you think that's something that can be taught like, or is that kind of how people are? That's the thing I wonder, like, Can you really teach someone how to, like, not get so emotionally involved into the situation? I mean, I suppose there's some techniques or something, but yeah, it might very well be just kind of the person you are and how you respond to things around you just in your life overall.
Jim: Right. Yeah, that's a good point. And some would certainly say, and there's something to be said, sort of the nature nurture environment kind of issue. Yeah. There's clearly people that in terms of just kind of their makeup, this is how they, you know, they just they see the world half full, the glass is half full. I had a clerical person years and was the most upbeat. In fact, I used to call her Susie Sunshine. It's like no matter what, she just didn't get down. And I thought, is this for real? Are you on some sort of happy? What's this all about? So that's there's a part of that. But yes, it can be taught. And so a lot of it is, you know, in terms of our behaviors as well, how's that influence its influence in our thinking. So you can get very catastrophic. Like, you know, I got a caseload of 150. I'm stressed. You know, I can't get to all my clients. And, you know, I should be able to, you know, answer them within a 24 hour period. And if somebody asks to see me, I should be. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of things that you should. And yes, it would be nice, but you have to kind of ask yourself, given the resources that I have, I have to be realistic about this. And so it sounds maybe a little trite, but in some ways it's kind of like, you know, you got to cut yourself some slack. You have to kind of say, yes, if I had 25 clients, yes, life would be different, but I don't. Sometimes you can explain this to your consumers and sometimes, yeah, they get it. In other cases it's not. But you can't let that define who you are because if you do, you're setting yourself up for unrealistic expectations which aren't going to be fulfilled. So you're going to be kind of frustrated and yeah, probably leave the organization. You know, I was like, hey, this isn't for me.
Carol: So it's really a practice thing. I mean, it's probably a time thing and a practice to kind.
Jim: Of has to be. Yeah, it has to be intentional. And this is where in terms of a good supervisor working with the counselor, it's like, you know, boy, you seem kind of, you know, really stressed. What's that about? What's going on. What's the belief system that you're operating from. What are your expectations you're placing on yourself? And sometimes it seems so obvious to the outsider. And I can just say in my own personal life, I mean, how many times is like, you know, hey, this is really obvious to somebody else. she's new news to me.
Carol: Yeah.
Jim: sometimes. Yeah. You gotta have that outside perspective to kind of like, let's take a look about what? What are those messages you're telling yourself? And are they realistic?
Carol: Right. What do you think are the most actionable steps that VR agencies can take right now?
Jim: Well, I wanted to give a shout out to a couple scholars. Yes, I've done some work in this. Doctor Landon from Utah State has done some work in this. Doctor Wu from northeastern Illinois, doctor McFarland from San Diego State. Yes, I know Fred's retired, but you know his legacy. So besides my own work, those folks, if you look at some of their work and my work and the team that I've worked with, there's a couple things. And this is like a long, long list because I started kind of writing a few things out here. The obvious thing is offer competitive salaries, but given the historical and current climate, it doesn't bode well for states are going to say, oh, we're going to increase your budget by 15% or 20%, which would allow you to hire more counselors at a competitive rate. So with that being said, I proposed at a CSAVR conference a couple years ago what seemed to be kind of a radical recommendation. Let me start with the most radical thing first, and then we'll get into some other. So the radical thing that I proposed was I recommended that we move from a five day to a four day workweek. Now, I'm not talking about 40 hours, ten hours a day, four days of work. Because remember, we're talking about the culture and the climate. So working those extra two hours every day is like, well, yeah, I'd have a day off, but is that really going to be meaningful? So given that states a lot of times don't have as much influence in their budget, what I suggested was moving to a four day, 32 hour workweek at the same pay. Now, I can imagine some of you...
Carol: Heads blew up, They did, yeah.
Jim: Yeah. That's right. Yeah, exactly. Like, who is this academic? What the heck does he know? So before you discount that, let me just kind of invite those that might push back on that and say, well, just for a moment, just indulge me. Just say like, well, let's just say if we did that. Okay. Well, first off, I would offer that the average work week, I think, for most state VR counselors is 37.5, so it's not really technically 40 hours of work. You'll remember my earlier comments about the younger generational workers. They want to see that kind of work life balance. So having greater time to devote to myself, my family, recreation, other pursuits, those become increasingly important. And again, I'll just offer this. We didn't talk about this as a result in the study, but if you need any further evidence of the support for this recommendation, one of the research questions that we asked an ancillary one, but we basically asked them about what are your thoughts or feelings about a 32 hour workweek? And we looked at intent to leave and surprise, surprise, yeah, that was a significant predictor in terms of yeah, that would cause me to stay.
All right. Let's unpack this a little bit further. I would offer to the State Counselor because again, we know what we know. We've always been 40 hours a week. And as I talked at the conference and I wrote in a Journal of Rehab article, you know, before the work week used to be 50, 60 hours a week, that was normal. You work Saturdays. All right. And it wasn't until Henry Ford said, you know what? Maybe we gotta rethink this thing. And, you know, he was proposing. Let's move to a 40 hour. Well, that was just heresy, because we just knew what we knew. So when we asked counselors and supervisors how much of an impact a 32 hour work week with no salary reduction, 75% of counselors and supervisors say that has a significant or very significant influence in me remaining on their jobs. My thought is, given we're not going to get more tip, most likely not a whole influx in terms of additional revenue for states. What can we control? Is this something that we can control? So that's like my radical. Okay.
Carol: Yeah. You're Henry Ford now Jim.
Jim: Yeah, I'm Henry Ford.
Carol: I love it, I love it.
Jim: I wish I was, at least I wish I was. I wish I was a descendant of Henry. so a less controversial recommendation. And frankly, it's funny because I see us kind of going back now and not in a good way. State VR agencies, while they offer telework, there are more and more state VR agencies are kind of like, well, let's get back to the good old days. Well, first off, I'm not sure that was kind of the good old days. I mean, clearly the pandemic contributed to a major societal change about rethinking about our work schedule. Before that, if the counselor said, hey, I'd like to stay at home for about three days a week and do my work. They'd say, that ain't happening. And so actually, what we find is, yes, you can do this job from home. And, you know, we have the markers, the accountability in terms of our statuses and, you know, the progress that you're making. So I mean, that's the bottom line. Are you getting closed successful rehabilitations with your clients. But now kind of what's happening is that we seems, at least what I've heard through talking with counselors and supervisors throughout the United States is there seems to be kind of a return of offering on site rehabilitation services. You know, that's something that I would ask us to really kind of take a look at that, and not only in terms of the telework, but let's think about the work flexibility. How often do we offer our counselors part time work or even evening hours? A lot of people retiring. That's a tremendous amount of experience that's going out the door. And you just wonder sometimes like, okay, so you want to retire. Great. Wonderful. But well, it's kind of like that's kind of what happened.
Carol: That's what happened to you, Jim.
Jim: That's right. So then the thing is kind of say, well, what if you work part time? What if you work X amount of hours a day or a week or whatever? So rehiring maybe recently retired workers. And again, let's focus on those that had proven track records. So, hey, they're a great rehab counselors and, yeah, we'd like to have them back. That's something could be done. Another thing that I think that could be done, and we used to do this in Pennsylvania, and unfortunately, it's at least as far as I know, we're not currently doing it. And if we are. My apologies to POVR - Pennsylvania Office of Vocational Rehabilitation, but provide paid internships and if possible, offer employee benefits to graduate students who complete their clinical internships with the state VR agency. And the great thing about this from a state VR, you get to see, you know, when you interview and screen, a candidate, maybe you spend an hour or two with them. That's a lot different from seeing somebody five days a week over a, you know, five, six month period. You got a lot of information about this person. And also you have then kind of a buy in from them like, yeah, this gives me some idea about what this job is all about. So you know, doing that and I know in Pennsylvania historically, they would hold back some of their training dollars to help kind of support that.
Maybe that's something could we look at? If we do? Just a little ancillary comment I'd make. Students graduate in May, August and December. So if you can somehow when you know, like, okay, we're going to have a vacancy, it'd be wonderful if you can kind of coordinate that with the times they graduate. So if, you know, for example, someone's going to retire and maybe they're going to retire in May rather than waiting May to start that job search, maybe start that job search March or April. And then because of the two months, oftentimes it takes to go through the screening and all the documentation and all that, then you can kind of coincide that, you know, and target it with those dates. Because I've had a number of students say, yeah, I'd like to work for the state VR, but I'm not waiting around 2 or 3 months. I need to get a job. I need to start making some money. So related to that, another recommendation I have is and some states are doing this trying to reexamine their screening procedure. So let's take a look and say look, what can we do to reduce the time between when we know a vacancy exists and the time of hire. So, as I said, most people, whether you're a student or not, unless you're currently working, you can't wait for 2 or 3 months.
Other things that they could do is, you know, we talked earlier about the importance of the work climate. You know, we've got to monitor that. So we said that one's intention to leave that's mitigated based on whether the counselor feels they're engaged in that process. So that's an important predictor. And as it relates to that specific variable it's about 40%. Well that's a big deal. So the message is if I feel engaged in this process I'm more likely, more likely to stay. So we talked also about the role of the supervisor and how a lot of supervisors, unfortunately, while they do really great on the administrative components, the clinical components, the sit down with the counselor and let's take a look at your relationships with your clients and what I can do to try to help you to have a good, effective working relationship because I know if the counselor has that relationship with you, they're going to be more likely to get successful rehab. So constant assessment about what's going on now, how can we do that better? And, you know, through maybe stay interviews or, or even exit interviews to find out what did we do wrong. Is there anything we could do better? It's difficult because we have to be able to hear kind of things that maybe we don't like to hear.
Carol: We don't like to hear.
Jim: Yeah. And as you know, that's kind of a big part of where we're going in terms of my work with you guys.
Carol: Yes. So on that note, you are going to be working with the new VRTAC and some recruitment retention pieces. So you want to talk a little bit about that. What that works going to look like.
Jim: Yeah yeah yeah. And you know sometimes somebody said yes I'm very excited. And no you're not. No I actually I am very excited about this work and I really feel very fortunate. You guys offer me the opportunity to partner with you. So building on some of the stuff, we talked a little bit about, one of the things that we plan to do is develop this toolkit. And basically what that means is we're hoping to provide a resource for human resource managers, in particular, who work in the state VR program to try to help them and also state VR leadership teams, but also to help them address kind of the recruitment and retention problems that have been so well documented over the years. So I've begun looking at some of the existing literature as a way to kind of framework. Okay, so we've talked about a lot of this already. What is it that predicts who's going to stay? Who's going to leave? We haven't talked too much about the recruitment aspect, but that's another thing that we're going to address to say, okay, what do we know already in terms of the literature? But that's only a part of it. And the other thing that I'm really kind of excited about is the opportunity to work with the HR Resource Professional Group, professional teams. John Walsh I know has been involved with that as well. And basically what I'm hoping to do is because I know when you talk with states leadership team, sometimes a state will be doing something. I'm getting excited. Just kind of talk aboaut I can't even get my words out.
They'll be doing something you think, man, you know, that is really cool. That's a great idea. Yeah. I wonder how nobody else, you know, knows about that. So it's amazing to me kind of the creativity that people have, but they just don't know about it. And so what I'm hoping to do is engage in a series of kind of focus groups, questions that gets to that, like not just what are the problems. I think we have a pretty good handle on that. But then what solutions? What are you doing to try to address this, what's working for you, and then be able to kind of put that in a toolkit or a resource that all states can use. So from the collective experiences from the various state VR agencies, we want to share that nationwide. And if everything goes according to plan, we're hoping to have that available in about a year, I think.
Carol: Yeah, a little less than a year.
Jim: Oh, a little.
Carol: Okay, a little less Jim. Let's see.
Jim: Okay.
Carol: Reining it in.
Jim: Yes, yes.
Carol: And then the other fun thing, you'll get to work with a state.
Jim: That's right. Thank you. The other component I've done clinical supervision training for about 12 different states. And I've met with each over the last probably 15 years. Each time I do it, I refine it a little better, a little better. And so I think I've got things down pretty good now. So I'm really interested now to work with the state to try to help their supervisors to work more effectively with their counselors, and in particular, how can I help supervisors to help their counselors become more effective as a counselor? And I have four kind of group supervision approaches that I know from. My research has proven pretty effective. So I'm looking for a state VR agency of supervisor and say, yep, let's tangle with that academic from Penn State. Let's do it. So that's the other component to it as well. Yes.
Carol: Yeah, we're really excited about that work. So Jim, thanks again for joining us on the manager minute. I really appreciate you being here. And for our listeners, if Jim has said something that is sparking your interest, especially with some work he's going to do with the VRTAC, please do reach out to us if you are interested in that for your agency. And until next time, everyone keep doing the great work that changes lives. Appreciate you. Have a great day!
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