    On Episode 118, Justin Christianson joins me. Justin is co-founder and president at Conversion Fanatics. I wanted to have Justin in to get to the bottom of conversion optimization. In this first part of our chat, we hear his background, how he came to co-found Conversion fanatics, some of the secrets to conversions, and how marketers can optimize user experience and conversion rates at the same time.&nbsp; Links of InterestConversion FanaticsJustin on LinkedIn



We’re Conversion Fanatics

In each episode of Confessions of a Marketer, Mark Reed-Edwards talks with a marketing leader or thinker about the deepest challenges in our business. Luminaries such as Beth Comstock, Whitney Johnson, Jacques van Niekerk and more share their wisdom with Mark. The podcast is a must-listen for marketers around the world and has ranked consistently among the top-rated business and marketing shows.

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Mark Reed-Edwards: My guest on Confessions of a Marketer today is Ed Evarts—author of The Bravery Trick: Four Ways to Say Hard Things. The book has been praised by scholar Amy Edmondson of Harvard Business School as untangling the behavior of bravery in ways that allow us to move forward. The Bravery Trick is available on Amazon.

Ed is the founder and president of Excellius Leadership Development, which focuses on helping its clients build awareness of how others experience them in the workplace so they can manage that experience effectively. He’s written two other books and is host of the Be Brave at Work podcast. 

If you're wondering what bravery has to do with marketing, well, everything, really.

So be brave and keep listening. I've also known Ed for longer than I'd care to admit, but it's great to have him here. Ed, welcome.

Ed Evarts: Thank you, Mark. I think we met when we were toddlers, or at least.

Mark Reed-Edwards: Yeah, preschool. Yeah. But anyway, we won't go into that. Could you tell me a bit about your career and what led you to found Excellius?

Ed Evarts: So I spent a number of years post college working in retail and worked for a number of local New England retailers, Jordan Marsh, Filene's and Lechmere, who are all gone. I left retailing in 1998 and began working at a records management company called Iron Mountain. I was at Iron Mountain for almost 10 years.

I got laid off from Iron Mountain in 2008 and was at a juncture in my life where I really didn't want to work for a company any longer. And so I spent that summer networking and talking with people about how to start your own business, which for somebody who had been employed with others for my whole career, I had no idea how to start my own business and what to focus on.

So I did that that summer. And then in the fall of 2008, decided to open up my own practice, which at first I called Evart's Coaching because I wanted people to know who I was and what I was doing. And then two to three years later converted it to Excellius Leadership Development.

Mark Reed-Edwards: It's funny how layoffs can have a catalytic effect on your life, not just economically, but sometimes success can come out of the hardest points in your life.

Ed Evarts: Well, I have built a new relationship with the person who laid me off at iron mountain. And just to tell that story quickly: my performance review was late and this boss called me and said, "Ed, I'm ready to give you your performance review. Can you come to my office at four o'clock today?" And I said, "Sure."

So I was excited to get my performance review. I went into her office and I sat down and she said, "In reality, Ed, I'm not here to give you your performance review. I'm here to let you know that we've made a decision to eliminate your role at the company." So for that day and for a few years following it, it was the worst day of my professional career.

And I can say with all honesty, Mark, 16 years later, it was the best day of my professional career because they kicked me out and I had to make some decisions, which I was not anticipating needing to make. And it just opened up a whole slew of opportunities. And I joke, I think today I'd still be at Iron Mountain if I didn't get kicked out.

And so to your point, it was you know, a great, great opportunity that at first felt horrible.

Mark Reed-Edwards: I have a similar story, which we won't go into, because this is all about you, Ed. So, I'd love you to share the story about your podcast, Be Brave at Work.

Ed Evarts: So I would say about five years ago, I had coffee with a colleague that I worked with at Lechmere, I think 20 years previously. And so when I left Lechmere, this person and I did not stay in contact at all. And then when I left Iron Mountain in 2008, we began connecting virtually. And so said hi on LinkedIn and checked in on LinkedIn.

And I think about 10 years after that, he said, let's go get a coffee, let's catch up and hear what's going on in our careers. So we met for a cup of coffee at the proverbial Starbucks in Waltham and we were updating each other on our careers. And he told me he was starting a podcast production company.

And I said something innocent, like, "Wow, I've always wanted to start a podcast." And he said, "Gee, Ed, what would it be on?" And I said, I really believe without missing a beat, "I think I'd want to talk about being brave at work."

And so that wonderful colleague who I met and who sparked this idea of being brave at work is none other than the great Mark Reed-Edwards.

Mark Reed-Edwards: No, that's me?

Ed Evarts: That's you.

Mark Reed-Edwards: That was a really interesting conversation that we had, because it was, quite innocently, it was just a couple of people who hadn't seen each other in 20 something years, just grabbing coffee and updating them. And it shows the value of meeting face to face and just having conversations with no pretext and what can come from that.

Out of the conversation rose Be Brave at Work.

Ed Evarts: Yeah. And it was a great combination, Mark, between your sincerity and interest in helping me kick off a podcast and making it work, and my commitment and interest in doing it, that led me to host almost 270 conversations with business leaders and professors and many average everyday people on bravery at work that ultimately led me to author the book that you mentioned earlier that came out in May of this year called The Bravery Trick. So all of that started with this innocuous, innocent little cup of coffee at a Starbucks.

Mark Reed-Edwards: And was the book something that was kind of percolating as you were producing episode 50, or was it something that when you got through all 270 or whatever it is that you thought out of that, I should be able to get a book. When when did the book start rising up as an idea?

Ed Evarts: So I don't know at what podcast the idea started to generate, but I did have one of those moments where I said, "You know, there's a book here. I'm hearing similar theories and philosophies and experiences from real people in the real world." So this isn't stuff I just sat back and created in the, you know, the confines of my office, but in listening to people and their experiences and the regret that they felt not saying something that was hard to say or doing something that was hard to do that I thought could result in a book.

I'm a big fan of the number three. And so, as you mentioned I needed a third book in order to satisfy my need to do things in threes, and so this became the recent book.

Mark Reed-Edwards: And the book is fascinating. I got it over the weekend. And I'm interested as I page through it, there is a section on Reasons to be Brave. Can you go into that and share a bit about the reasons we should be brave?

Ed Evarts: When I wrote the book, Mark, I really wanted to write it in a way that can connect with everyday, average people. I didn't want it to be too professorial or 800 pages, but I wanted it to be kind of a simple, easy to understand, easy to read, overview of ideas and suggestions on how you could be brave at work.

And there are an innumerable number of benefits that we lose or don't take advantage of for ourselves by not being brave at work. So for example, in the book, I talk a little bit about spiritual development that by being brave at work and saying something that's hard to say to a colleague or doing something that might be hard to do can actually help you feel better because you get it out of your head and out of your system.

It might be something that's stressing you out or making you feel uncomfortable. And if you never do anything about it, it might cause you to make bad decisions. So there's a spiritual development that can happen by saying something to a colleague that can be helpful to them. There's also mental development, right?

So, saying something that may be hard to say or doing something that may be hard to do helps build your mental capacity as a leader. We all want to be effective, impactful leaders and yet we can't get there unless we're doing things that help us grow and evolve. And, you know, I love and I mentioned in the book a quote from former first lady Michelle Obama who said, "Through my education, I didn't just develop skills, I didn't just develop my ability to learn, I developed confidence."

And so there's this ability mentally to be more confident with what you do and who you are. And then the last benefit is physical development. That there's this whole brain arena that I touch on quickly but don't go into great detail that allows certain things in your brain to work in a way that helps you grow and develop.

So it helps you physically be brave at work. It helps you spiritually and it helps you mentally say things respectfully and professionally at all times to a colleague, friend, a next door neighbor, a family member, whoever it might be in ways that help them.

Mark Reed-Edwards: But are there things that an organization, a company, can do to encourage bravery? To encourage me as an employee going to my manager with an idea that could help the company. In some cases that dynamic between the employee and the manager is fraught because the employee is afraid to raise his or her hand to make a suggestion because it might get shot down, you know, even though the employee might think it's a great idea.

Ed Evarts: You're dead on. And one of the obstacles that currently exists to being brave at work is: does our culture recognize it or honor it? And if I work in an organization where raising my hand and making a suggestion is not well received or is not honored or respected, my likelihood for doing it even if I want to do it is diminished. And so in the book I talked a little bit about the fact that being brave at work is a two way street. 

I need to have the skills and capabilities to say what I need to say or do what I need to do in a very helpful and respectful way. But I need to know that the other person is going to receive it well. If I wanted to tell you something, Mark, that I think is hard to say, or I'm not sure if you're going to receive it well, but we have a great relationship, you know that I want to help you, I'm motivated to help you, your likelihood for listening and participating in that is significantly more likely than if you're not that way, right?

That if I think it's just going to fall on deaf ears and won't make a difference. So the culture we exist in is significant, and ironically, the person you mentioned at the start of the podcast, Amy Edmondson, Is an expert--global expert--on something called psychological safety, which is this arena or culture we create where I can be who I need to be professionally and respectfully.

But if I'm at a meeting and I need you to repeat something or I need to make a recommendation that's controversial, I can do it without feeling judged or belittled or get, you know, people getting defensive or argumentative. So the culture we create is super important to ensure people can be brave at work.

Mark Reed-Edwards: So, yeah, boy, it's such a big topic in marketing, I think, which is where I've made my living because we're always trying to come up with ideas, be creative or present data that may not be what our superiors want to hear. So I'm going to encourage everybody I know in marketing to pick up this book.

So can you share a bit about the Bravery Trick Model?

Ed Evarts: I can, but before we go there, Mark, I'm just curious as you talk about individuals who focus on marketing or have a career in marketing, do you believe that all of them have opportunities to be braver, to say something that might be hard to say, or do something that might be hard to do --respectfully and professionally at all times?

But I mean, do you think these opportunities exist out there for people who focus on marketing?

Mark Reed-Edwards: Oh yeah. And I mean, in my area, it's all about ideas. So when I present a concept, sometimes you're maybe a little hesitant to say, well, here's my real idea.

You're trying to gauge what the reception would be for an outlandish idea. And so maybe you go with a safe option.

Ed Evarts: Yeah, I am not an expert in marketing, but based on my expertise in bravery, I have to believe that marketing and the activity of marketing, especially this model of idea creation requires bravery constantly, that you constantly...

Mark Reed-Edwards: Mm hmm. 

Ed Evarts: ...have to say, "wow, great idea. This is going to be very interesting or controversial.

How do I present it? How do I share it with others? What way can I engage others in respect to adopting this idea or at least considering it, right? How do I make it a candidate for something that we want to do?"

Mark Reed-Edwards: It requires bravery to press send on an email campaign. It requires bravery to push a website live after you've totally renovated a website. It requires bravery for me as, you know, someone who makes a living as a writer, sometimes to send a draft to a client. But, but you do those things as a matter of course, maybe you don't even think that it's brave to do that.

Ed Evarts: Yeah, I think a lot of times we do things that others think require bravery and we ourselves don't. Or required a ton of bravery that people think were easy to do. So bravery is complex in respect to its existence in the workplace. And again, I hope people find time to purchase the book and think about some ideas.

And I want to go back to the question you asked earlier, which was the bravery trick model. So based on the feedback that I heard from the people I interviewed in the podcast, we also did a survey of the marketplace in respect to bravery as it exists in the workplace. My own experiences being a corporate leader for 20 plus years, and my relationship with clients for the last 16 years in all different industries at all different levels.

You know, the model is essentially made up of four areas, which is Practice, Presence, Future Focus, and Flexibility. If you practice what it is that you want to say, that you're very present at the meeting, and ensure the person knows that you're all in on what it is that you're talking about, that you focus on the future, you focus on where you're going, not where you've been, and you're flexible with the outcomes and decisions and next steps, your likelihood for being brave at work is increased.

Mark Reed-Edwards: The thing that I like about the book is that it's really easy to follow. So as you said, you know, it's not a 400 page treatise on bravery. It's a really approachable, well organized book. So I recommend people go out and get it on Amazon right now. Finally, and maybe this is where marketing and bravery intersect: what's the experience of marketing and launching a book? That took some bravery, I would think, right?

Ed Evarts: I don't know if it took bravery. It certainly took diligence but yeah, I mean, you know, bravery again is very hard to define and very hard to understand what again might have been a brave thing for me. You know, there are some people who going to a networking event is bravery for them. It's very hard to walk into a room with people they've never met and interact.

And many people don't even do it because of that reason. For me, I could walk in and, next thing, you know, I've got 10 new best friends. So it's a no brainer, but you know, I think it's diligence and persistence. I think all books need to have some type of model or premise that you're operating around that you want to share.

Everything I write, Mark is designed to educate and help others. And that's why it's written in the way that it's written. I've been a big fan of business books throughout my career. I've read a million business books, and the ones I remember most, and the ones that I'm most attracted to and go back to, are the ones that are simply written, right?

They're written by people for people. And they're, again, they're not this 400 page, you know, encyclopedia type book on whatever topic it is that you're reading. Like you, I hope folks have an opportunity to read it and walk away with one or two ideas that they can integrate into their style that will help them be braver at work.

Mark Reed-Edwards: Well, it's great, Ed, and it's great reconnecting with you after a while. I hope the, the book continues to do well, and I wish you luck in the future. Thanks for joining me.

Ed Evarts: Thanks, Mark. It's been great chatting with you.

Mark Reed-Edwards: We'll see you on the next Confessions of a Marketer. 

Add the Bravery Trick to Your Marketing Toolkit

How to succeed on Amazon in 2024

We're back with this mini series of Talent Showcase episodes focused on people in marketing, communications, PR, and allied fields who're looking for their next opportunity. You'll hear their stories, successes, and how they can help their next employer or client.

Today, I'm joined by Paula Lowe. Paula is the founder and principal of The PR Table, a marketing communications consulting firm, where all of marketing has a seat at the table. Although Paula's expertise is in media relations and communication strategy, her experience encompasses all aspects of marketing communications, from email marketing, content development, and social media to website creation and maintenance.

Paula has more than 15 years experience, having worked with large multinational corporate entities and small startup ventures within a wide range of industries, including technology, Financial Services, Health Care and Medical, Health IT, Supply Chain, Non profits, and Supply Chain and Logistics. 

Transcript

Mark Reed-Edwards: Paula, it's good to have you on the show. Welcome.

Paula Lowe: It's great to be here, Mark. Thank you.

Mark Reed-Edwards: So, I just told your life story, but can you tell me more about yourself beyond what I just shared, your background and career path?

Paula Lowe: Sure. It's always fun to sort of remember the story. I actually went to school in Boston and graduated with an associate degree in hospitality management. I quickly got a job at the Ritz Carlton in a supervisory role, but realized that it was not going to afford me the opportunity to complete my degree, which was very important back then.

So I transferred and got a job as an admin assistant at an environmental engineering firm. And about a year in, I transferred from the facilities department to the corporate communications department. And that was it. I fell in love with corpcomm. I began to realize that my natural storytelling and relatability with people was something I could leverage in a career that I would find satisfying and challenging.

So I got in touch then with our PR consultant that was brought in. My boss said, "I'm going to have you work with our PR consultant, help tell some stories. I think you'd be good at it." I said, "Great." And that was it. From there, I left the environmental engineering firm and I joined Lois Paul Partners back up in Lexington.

I've had my career in public relations ever since. 

Mark Reed-Edwards: So what is one of your most important career accomplishments, do you think?

Paula Lowe: I have to say, working for Hebrew Senior Life in Boston, which is a non profit. They have a hospital license for Hebrew Rehab Center. And they have eight or nine senior housing locations throughout Greater Boston. And I was there at the onset and throughout COVID.

And that was a very, very challenging, stressful, difficult time. But it was also a really great learning opportunity because HSL is a leader in senior care. And the then- CEO, he's since retired, but he was a real inspiration to see how he handled things and we were able to bring them through that crisis really successfully. 

Mark Reed-Edwards: So what do you think you can offer your next employer or client?

Paula Lowe: I think that the years of experience I have have led me to be, although I am a PR specialist, if you will, my forte is media relations and analyst relations, securing those relationships, but you know, there's a breadth of services and strategy that I can bring to my clients, so relationship building, persistence.

One of the things I found as a PR person is that we have to be persistent. And if a client or I want a relationship with a particular member of the media, I will make it happen. It just might take some time and some creativity. I really find a lot of inspiration in trying to find different ways to do things.

I'm not a believer in "this is the way we've always done it so this is the way we should continue to do it." So if my clients are open to new ways of looking at things. I bring a lot of creativity and ideas that we can implement. And of course, strategy. I've done that for most of my career.

Nothing is done in a bubble. There's always a strategic reason and business objective we're trying to achieve.

Mark Reed-Edwards: I've never really done PR. I've been in areas around PR and talked to the press on occasion. But persistence is a quality for most of the people I know in PR who are great at their jobs. Because they build relationships over years. And you have to be persistent to do that.

Paula Lowe: Absolutely. And it's a fine line. Some of the relationships I built early on in my career, I'm still friends with those reporters and editors. And I think one of the things that sets me apart, and maybe even it's a generational thing at this point too, but I never went to a reporter or editor with a pitch that I had to read off a sheet.

I made sure I understood it. I made sure I understood the business value of what we were offering, and if they didn't accept it, I always asked why. I said I know that time is tight, but what am I missing here? Because I am trying to be a good resource. I do my research. If I'm missing, I need to know what I'm missing and why.

And sometimes they would tell me, sometimes they wouldn't, but often they'd say, "You know, that's a great question. Nobody asks that. It's not totally off the mark. It's the timing or it's this." And that's valuable information to take back to a client as well. Why the pitches aren't working or why the client thinks it's a great story, but maybe the media doesn't.

And then we find a different way to go back to that person with what they can use.

Mark Reed-Edwards: Yeah, and finding out their editorial calendar and just partnering up with them over the course of months or even years so that you can align with what the reporter's needs are and those reporters are stretched thinner than ever now.

Paula Lowe: Oh, gosh, for sure. The landscape has changed significantly and it's very challenging. But you can still do it. I'm doing it right now for a client. I'm having a lot of fun. It's a really unique auto industry training software company that I'm working with and it's a lot of fun and I'm making those relationships on their behalf and it's just been great because you can still do that.

It just takes a little longer.

Mark Reed-Edwards: Yeah. And how do you---I'll ask one last question. How do you work with your client to set their expectations that they're not going to be in the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times next week.

Paula Lowe: Isn't that the age old question?

Mark Reed-Edwards: Yeah.

B You know, it's just a matter of being very honest and direct and saying, " When you have that story I'm happy to tell it, but you're not there right now, or you know, it's gonna take some time to secure those relationships and make those connections." 

One of the challenges, too, is the way people move around.

Many of the people I worked with just a few short years ago are now in different roles. Still within the media landscape, but different roles. It might mean that I need to get reconnected or connected with someone new. And those things do take time. So I just sort of set the expectation up front and let them know that there are certain criteria that you have to meet to get into a big publication like that, or even Forbes, Fortune, those kinds of publications, and those take time. They're not an overnight thing.

Mark Reed-Edwards: Well, Paula, you've got a great story to tell for yourself, and thanks for joining me. I hope this podcast helps you find your next great gig.

Paula Lowe: Thank you, Mark. I appreciate being here. 

Mark Reed-Edwards: Well, that's it for this mini series. Together, we've met some extraordinary people. Ben Bradshaw, Jason Rasmussen, Gem Passant, Chuck Tanowitz, Kelley Lynn Kassa, and today's guest, Paula Lowe. 

I hope we helped tell their stories and that they have nothing but good fortune to come. As for what's coming next for this podcast, stay tuned.

We have one of the world's leading Amazon experts and the guest for the most popular episode of Confessions of a Marketer while we were away. That's Robin Johnson. She'll be with us next time, and we'll see you then.

Paul Lowe: Marketing Consultant

Today, I’m joined by Kelley Lynn Kassa.

Kelley’s career evolved from public relations, media relations and analyst relations to marketing programs, content strategy, and content creation. She’s worked with a wide range of organizations, from start-ups to blue-chip technology companies.

Outside of her professional life, Kelley is a foodie and a rower (look for her on the Charles River!). Plus, she coaches recreational rowing to youth, adults, and para athletes.

The transcript

Mark Reed-Edwards: Kelley, welcome.

Kelley Kassa: Hey, Mark. Thank you for taking the time to speak with me today.

Mark Reed-Edwards: It's wonderful having you here. It's been a while since we've caught up, so it's great to chat. Can you tell me more about yourself beyond what I just shared, your background and career path?

Kelley Kassa: Sure, as you mentioned, I started in PR and I migrated or spread my wings into marketing. I tend to think of myself as a marketing utility player. And what I've found over the last few years is I've had a great deal of success and brought success to organizations that I've worked with by serving as a marketing mentor to them.

I can come in and bring them the strategy and work with their in house marketing person, who's younger in their career, on the execution or I really just serve as a manager for that person. This way they have somebody who understands marketing and helps them reach the marketing goals and metrics that the executive team wants, while also making sure that they are learning about marketing and they're growing in their role as well. For one company that I worked with---an innovation consulting firm---they had had a series of new people in their career in marketing, there was no marketing executive, and they were celebrating their 20th year in business.

After a few months of working with me, they said they've never been successful at marketing before. And now they've found that success. And so that's something that I'm rolling out as an offering to other organizations. It's something I've done not just with that firm, but also with a nonprofit organization that I work with where again, it was somebody newer to his career reporting into an executive director who had so many other things on his plate.

Things were going south quickly. So they brought me in and I met with him on a weekly basis. It's that hands on stuff of, "Okay, what's on your plate? Let's prioritize that. What's coming up? What do we need to think about in three months that we need to plan for now?" As well as the day to day care and feeding of your employees. Like, "How's it going?" 

So that's what I'm really excited about right now.

Mark Reed-Edwards: It sounds fascinating to me because you have so much you can offer. You're, a utility player. How do you figure out where you focus with a client?

Kelley Kassa: Well, oftentimes, it's a matter of doing the initial triage. And my perspective comes from having worked for a number of PR agencies earlier in my career: "What are the bigger goals and then what are your quick wins?" Okay, so I'm probably going to butcher the baseball analogy because I'm not that much of an enthusiast, although I like going to Fenway to see the Red Sox. While you're focusing on what are the home runs we need to hit, how quickly can we get some singles under our belt, so to speak so that we start to get momentum.

I listened to your recent podcast with Chuck Tanowitz, who I know well, and he talked about bread rising and needing multiple projects going on while your bread is rising. And it's sort of the same idea. The home runs are going to take a little bit more. You're going to need to put more effort into it.

So what can we do in the short term to show some wins and prove that marketing will get them what they want?

Mark Reed-Edwards: So speaking of home runs, can you tell me one of your most important career accomplishments?

Kelley Kassa: You know, I pride myself on the relationships that I have with clients. And it's very easy to say, "Oh, I'm not just a vendor and I partner with my clients." But to use a very old cliche, the proof is in the pudding. And, and in this case, I'd say it's in the salad. In that I had a client who eventually was acquired by IBM, but I first started working with her in 1995 five --and I'm probably dating myself. I know I'm dating myself. And, up until recently, we still exchanged Christmas cards. You know, of course we're Facebook friends, but we still keep in touch. And she gave me a recipe, a fabulous recipe for salad that I still make every Easter for my family. And I don't know what it's called, but we call it Toby's salad because Toby was my client.

Mark Reed-Edwards: You're a rower, right? And we're connected on Facebook and that's a big part of your life. What do you think being a rower has taught you that you bring to marketing?

Kelley Kassa: So there are a number of things. And I'm sure that you've heard of the book and the movie, The Boys in the Boat, which is all about teamwork. What I see in rowers and when I coach, especially the middle schoolers, the number one quality that I really look for is grit and stick to attitiveness.

With marketing, you need that because your first, second, third, fourth idea might not get you what you want, but you need to just keep grinding it out. And with rowing, you have more failures with bad strokes than you have successes with good strokes. And it's about working through and fixing the things that are not working to get to those fabulous strokes that feel good, and that are in sync with everybody else in the boat.

My boat house does corporate events, where we teach teamwork. When you're thinking of a corporation, marketing can be hitting all of its marks, you know, perfect strokes. But if sales isn't in tune with marketing, the boat's not going to go very fast because you're fighting against each other.

And so you really need everybody working together the same amount of effort. A boat that's working together with eight people will actually go faster and farther than a boat of eight people that are fighting each other, even if those other eight people are bigger and stronger.

Mark Reed-Edwards: Last question. What do you think you can offer your next client?

Kelley Kassa: I can offer my next client that level of expertise of, having put in the hours, while helping them succeed with their marketing goals and growing their in- house marketing team and making their in- house team happier. That's one of the things I did with an organization. I worked with the executive director and the marketing person that were pretty close to strangling each other.

And they both ended up much happier in their roles with me being involved in bringing that experience and insight and sometimes just serving as a buffer between the executive who doesn't have a whole lot of time and the newer career person who needs a whole lot of time.

Mark Reed-Edwards: Well, Kelley, thanks so much for joining me. I hope this podcast helps you find your next great gig.

Kelley Kassa: Thank you so much, Mark, and have a great day.

Mark Reed-Edwards: I'm Mark Reed Edwards. See you on the next confessions of a marketer.

Kelley Lynn Kassa: Passionate marketing executive

Chuck Tanowitz is a seasoned professional in strategic communications, with a history of building strong programs that drive media and brand growth. 

His experience spans more than 15 years—he has played key roles in shaping the marketing and communication strategies for various brands, including Paytronix Systems, Greentown Labs, the N-Squared Innovation District, TenMarks, and a long list of others. 

Chuck is back on Confessions of Marketer for the second time—having joined us in 2017 in the very early days of this podcast. 

Transcript

Mark Reed-Edwards: Welcome to this special episode of Confessions of a Marketer. I'm Mark Reed Edwards. We're back with this mini series of shows I've dubbed the Talent Showcase. These episodes focus on people in marketing, communications, PR, and allied fields who are looking for their next opportunity.

My guests share their stories, successes, and how they can help their next employer or client. Today, I'm joined by Chuck Tanowitz. Chuck is a seasoned professional in strategic communications with a history of building strong programs that drive media and brand growth. His experience spans more than 15 years.

He's played a key roles in shaping the marketing and communication strategies for various brands, including Paytronix Systems, Greentown Labs, the N Squared Innovation District, 10 Marks, and a long list of others. 

Chuck Tanowitz is back on Confessions of a Marketer for the second time, having joined us in 2017, the very early days of this podcast.

Chuck, welcome back.

Chuck Tanowitz: Thank you. I I really appreciate you having me on.

Mark: It's great to chat. So can you tell me more about yourself beyond what I just shared, you know, your background and career path?

Chuck: You know, it's interesting. I was reading an article recently that talked about developing a career portfolio as opposed to a career path, and I feel like that's actually a little bit of what I've done. Yes, the core of my career has been in PR and marketing and brand, but I've also taken on these other roles outside.

That's how I ended up, for example, at the N squared Innovation District, which was really more of an economic development effort, as much it was a marketing effort. So it's given me this broad base of very interesting kind of pieces that I've done. 

You know, when I look at the work I did at Paytronix, which was very much traditional marketing and PR and brand, which was: drive leads and drive interest in this company.

But then you look at something like N-Squared, where it was: "How do I develop a community? How do I bring in art into the project and develop placemaking? How do I connect with local colleges and universities?" 

And then something like Greentown Labs, where it was: "How do you build something from zero and get it known where you're trying to not necessarily build leads, but certainly build brand around a name and what it means and giving it some brand equity?"

And then also creating my own PR from, which I had done a few years ago. And then also being a local advocate and sit on the Economic Development Commission. And then most recently, I spent three days in Vermont learning how to bake croissants. So it's, you know, how do I put all those things together and begin to say, "What do they all mean and how do you move forward?"

Mark: Boy, there are some analogies one can make to baking related to our profession. You know, being patient, right? And letting things rise.

Chuck: Yeah, sometimes I am not nearly patient enough in my rise. But yes, that is a big part of baking. In fact, I said to my wife the other day, "What I need to do when I bake is plan out a series of bakes along the way, so that while one thing is sitting and rising, I'm working on the next thing." You're right, it does align with where you are in PR, where you're kind of, yes, you might be working on a press release over here, but that's not going out, you know, for two months, three months, six weeks, whatever it is.

I also need to be doing the short- term pieces that's going to be driving things forward. But that's actually, I think, where, you know, if you want to kind of bring that analogy back out, where a lot of companies are missing the boat on PR. I know when I was doing my own agency, people would say to me, "Well, how will I know PR is working in the leads that I get?"

And I heard it described recently as: demand generation is my sales in this month and next month. PR and brand are my sales in six months to a year. Looking at that over the long term is very difficult to kind of parse out how much is PR and brand doing for you and how much is demand gen doing for you.

Those things have to work together, but you're right, there is a lot of patience involved in that PR and brand strategy because they are long term. You're not going to flip a switch and people are just going to know about you It's going to take some time.

Mark: And croissants are layered, and it's very fine layers, so maybe there's another analogy we could make there.

Chuck: I don't know if you've ever made croissants, but I was learning how to lock in butter which is a whole different thing. But yes, they are layered. There's a very careful folding process you need to do to get the right layers. You need to be patient. I was so proud of myself the other day when I made these croissants and I bit into it and I could see the honeycomb layer within it was like, Oh yes, I hit all those layers just right.

But again, you don't know until you're done, right? When I bake a bread, it really takes 24 hours for sourdough to mature and come to life. 

And you put it in the oven and at that very last step, you could burn it. You could put it in too early, too late. And suddenly all this work you've done for the last 24 hours, is shot. And that's it. Right? 

So there's a lot of businesses that operate like that, but PR is definitely the end of that process. 

You can't rely on a single launch to make or break a company. You have to do it over time because there's too many factors that could get in the way that are often outside of your control. I mean, how many of us were working on a launch and the week before something major happens in the world and it completely changes what you're trying to do, right? 

Happens to Hollywood all the time. How many times have you heard a movie getting delayed or moving around because another one was coming out? Or some major event happens in the world-- a news event, a death, something tragic-- and it's like, "Well, we can't release a movie into that environment." 

So there's a lot of places that operate like that. Businesses need to be aware that they exist in that market and they can't plan these things out and say, "We have to hit that date, otherwise we're going to die."

That's not a good way to run that company. You have to think long term and having a whole host of things moving throughout the year. It's a long growth process.

Mark: It's kind of interesting. I don't want to get bogged down in this subject, but ESG and DEI have cropped up in the last several years for good reason. Prior to that, it's almost like companies existed in a different world. Most of them didn't want to get involved in what was going on in the greater society.

Chuck: We dealt a little bit with that at my last position. During the George Floyd protests and Black Lives Matter, before the federal government declared Juneteenth a holiday, my CEO had decided: we are going to close the office on Juneteenth. And we are going to encourage our employees to do public service, to take some time to read and to think.

And we put out, you know, internally, a bunch of reading suggestions and so on. I was on the DEI committee, so I was part of that decision. And we sent an email off to our customers to let them know that we were going to be closed that day. And our customers were nationwide. Many of them were convenience stores in the Midwest and South.

And we had a very mixed response back. Some people were very supportive: "Well, this makes a lot of sense." Some people felt that we were politicizing the business world. And to my CEO's credit, he said, "This is what we're doing." We didn't lose any business over it. None of that happened. 

And a year later, the federal government made Juneteenth a holiday regardless.

So clearly, we were heading in the correct direction, but you know, he had to look at that response to say, "That's okay. I'm going to take that." And businesses do need to do that. They do need to realize that they live in a greater world and what they stand for matters.

I'm seeing that shift a little bit from where it was even a year or two ago, where people are getting a little less comfortable being out there. But I do think it's important and I do think people are making purchasing decisions, at least on the consumer side, in part by what your business stands for.

Mark: So this is about you, Chuck. So let's turn the focus back to you. And can you share one of your most important career accomplishments?

Chuck: It's interesting that there's actually a lot of things I can pull from that. Let me start recently and go backwards a little bit in time. I was very proud of the work that I did at Paytronix in launching the brand. 

Getting the opportunity to launch a brand of that magnitude where it was not just, "Hey, let's just change a few aspects of how our logo looks." But this was a complete change in what we looked like, what we sounded like, who we were, how we talked about ourselves-- across the board, the tool sets, the graphic tool sets, the conversations.

To have that opportunity to build that and to say, "How do I bring that out internally? How do I bring that out externally?" That was really interesting. I learned a tremendous amount from that project. I was proud of the work that I did there. I was proud of what it did for the company. There was an, you know, some immediate jumps in, you know, that, that brand awareness that happened.

You don't often see that, but you know, it was nice to see those Google searches go through the roof. So you certainly saw that impact right away. Then I was sitting in a sales meeting a few months later and the chief revenue officer stood up there and said, "this is one of the things that's really working in our company. Our brand is making our sales process move faster." 

There's some direct result. I can see that. 

I was also equally proud of some of the work I did with Greentown Labs, spending a couple of years launching them into the market and getting them going from a place of sitting empty, really, to something that became very much part of the fabric of the clean tech landscape, certainly in Boston and began to emerge as we were wrapping up that work emerged around the country.

They're now in Houston. And a lot of the branding and the concepts that we laid out for them, they still use today. You know, one of the things I remember we talked about early on was we were debating how do we talk about their tenants, right? Because they were charging rent. How do they talk about tenants?

And we were like, "Well, if we call them member companies and we give them a badge, that's going to help our SEO." And they still talk about member companies and alumni companies and that sort of thing as part of their language. I was very proud of that work. It seems so small and minor, but it changes the nature of the way that you think about yourself.

It changed nature of the way companies think about themselves within it. And then the work I did at N Squared was spectacular. Not only did we see the results and the people coming in, but one of my favorite projects was the Greenway Arts Project. We had this greenway that was really underutilized and we were looking at how do we drive awareness for the N Squared Innovation District and engage with the local community.

And I synced up with Studios Without Walls to bring in sculpture. We had looked at a lot of different directions about how to do this. And we brought in this for two years, we brought in this the sculpture exhibit and not only did it get the neighborhood excited, but it completely changed the way the neighborhood looked at the center of its being where it had been looking at other areas.

This was a neighborhood that didn't really have a good center of downtown. They began to look at that greenway as their center, which they hadn't before. And considering that there's a major development happening on the other side of that greenway, the fact that they changed the center of their site to that location will change long term, the way that that whole neighborhood sees itself. 

Mark: I think anybody who has listened to this podcast would know the answer to this question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. What do you think you can offer your next employer or client?

Chuck: I certainly bring a breadth of understanding of how people think. Right? And be able to get into that conversation in a very interesting way. You know, there's the tactical: writing skills, etc., down the line. 

But there's certainly then the broad sweep of: "Who are we? How do we get that to market? How do we encourage people to know about us? How do we raise our awareness?"

So I bring that kind of skill set. At the same time you know, I have a pretty solid track record of training people, so there's not only the ability to bring that out, but also build a team underneath me that can help execute on that and help grow that team and encourage that team and keep them engaged in storytelling.

One of the things that I do take great pride in is the ability to tell that story and the ability to kind of turn that story outward. At Paytronix, I changed some things around to create what I called story- driven marketing, where we went and dug into the customer stories, figured out where those stories were, how those matched with our brand message and then move those into the various content components, the eBooks, the webinars, etc., blog posts, case studies, and pushed those out through our own marketing that we needed to get out for demand gen, but that also then fed the PR.

So being able to create these systems that can run and can help build for the future is where my skill set is. And then, you need to build the infrastructure underneath it to maintain those long term. But certainly it's about: "How do you create a process that's going to continually benefit across multiple touch points?"

So that's a lot of what I try to bring to the table.

Mark: Well, Chuck, it was great chatting again. Always enjoy it. And I really hope this podcast helps you find your next great gig.

Chuck: I appreciate it. I appreciate the time.

Mark: I'm Mark Reed Edwards. Join me on the next Confessions of a Marketer.

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