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An extraordinary conversation with Nicolas de Oliveira and Nicola Oxley, the writer-curator duo who literally wrote the books on installation art and founded the Museum of Installation in London. For nearly 40 years, they've been chroniclers, producers, curators, and advocates for a medium that barely had a name when they first started.

From publishing the definitive Installation Art books (1994, 2003) and commissioning hundreds of new works to building an extensive archive – Nicolas and Nicola have been at the coalface of installation art's evolution.

In this wide-ranging discussion, they share what it was like convincing galleries that installation art even existed, why good documentation became their mission, and how they've sustained independent curatorial practice for four decades on "absolute shoestring budgets."

Key insights from this episode:

• How installation art emerged and why galleries insisted it was "just sculpture"

• Coining the term "immersive" in their 2003 book (before it became ubiquitous)

• Their philosophy of curating as co-production

• The economics of independent spaces: how friendships sustain what funding cannot

• Why they turned down a massive London space and turned to making books

• The difference between installation art and the "entertainment industry" of immersive experiences

• Advice for emerging artists: practice comes first, outcomes come later

Nicolas de Oliveira and Nicola Oxley are based in London and run SE8 Gallery in Deptford. Their books Installation Art (1994) and Installation Art in the New Millennium (2003) remain foundational texts in the field.

They publish artist books under their imprint Mulberry Tree Press and continue to curate exhibitions internationally while maintaining one of the most extensive archives of installation art documentation in the world.

00:26 Discovering Installation Art

01:50 Early Influences and Inspirations

06:24 Founding Unit 7 Gallery

07:30 The Role of Documentation

14:45 Museum of Installation

18:30 SE8 Gallery and International Projects

20:05 Challenges of Space and Real Estate

24:10 Curatorial Practices and Artist Relationships

36:09 Writing Process and Collaboration

43:02 Funding and Sustainability

47:06 Installation Art and the Art Market

01:05:08 Supporting Artists Through Time and Commitment

01:07:36 Advice for Emerging Installation Practitioners

01:17:58 Curating Shows in Different Countries

01:24:09 Documenting and Archiving Installations

01:43:44 Defining Installation Art and Its Future

SE8 Gallery: https://se8.gallery/ | https://www.instagram.com/nicode.oliveira?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Installation Art (1996): https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/12208566-installation-art

Installation Art in the New Millennium (2003): https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1972215.Installation_Art_in_the_New_Millennium

Our interview with Hans op de Beeck: https://installationartpodcast.com/hans-op-de-beeck-018

Bonus episode: What is Installation Art: https://installationartpodcast.com/bonus-025

Bonus episode: Why This 2026 Venice Biennale Scandal is Splitting the Art World: https://installationartpodcast.com/bonus-031

Also mentioned in this episode:

Goldsmith’s University: https://www.gold.ac.uk/ | https://www.instagram.com/goldsmithsuol/ | @GoldsmithsUoL

Arte Povera: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arte_Povera

Yves Klein: https://www.yvesklein.com/en/yves-klein/ |

Allan Kaprow: http://www.allankaprow.com/

Dan Graham: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Graham

Rachel Whiteread: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Whiteread | https://www.instagram.com/rachelwhitereadofficial/

Bruce Nauman: https://www.moma.org/artists/4243-bruce-nauman | https://www.instagram.com/brucenaumanart/

Edward Woodman: https://jhg.art/events/space-light-and-time-edward-woodman-a-retrospective/

Helen Chadwick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Chadwick

Thames & Hudson: https://www.thamesandhudson.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/thamesandhudson

ICA London: https://www.ica.art/ https://www.instagram.com/icalondon/

Whitechapel Gallery: https://www.whitechapelgallery.org/ | https://www.instagram.com/whitechapelgallery | @whitechapelgallery

Camden Art Centre: https://camdenartcentre.org/ | https://www.instagram.com/camdenartcentre/ | @camden-art-centre

Museum of Installation: https://www.moca.london/moi.html | https://www.tate.org.uk/whats-on/tate-britain/museum-of-installation-archive

New Museum: https://www.newmuseum.org/ | https://www.instagram.com/newmuseum/ | @newmuseum

Phyllida Barlow: https://www.hauserwirth.com/artists/2826-phyllida-barlow/

KW Institute for Contemporary Art: https://www.kw-berlin.de/en/ | https://www.instagram.com/kwinstitutefcontemporaryart/

Boris Groys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Groys

Goshka Macuga: https://www.moma.org/artists/131293-goshka-macuga | https://www.instagram.com/gonogo.space/?hl=en

Hans op de Beeck: https://hansopdebeeck.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/hans_op_de_beeck/

Dave Hickey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Hickey

Stefan Brüggemann: http://www.stefanbruggemann.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/stefanbruggemann1975/

Chris Kraus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Kraus_(writer) | https://www.instagram.com/chriskraus7/

Jonathan Lethem: https://jonathanlethem.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/jonathanlethem/

Richard Wilson: https://www.richardwilsonsculptor.com/

Lucy R. Lippard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_R._Lippard

Giulio Paolini: https://www.mariangoodman.com/artists/57-giulio-paolini/

Pistoletto: https://www.pistoletto.it/eng/home.htm

Eva Hesse: https://www.hauserwirth.com/artists/2810-eva-hesse/

Marcel Broodthaers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Broodthaers

Moon and Jeon: https://moonandjeon.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/moonandjeon/

Documenta: https://documenta.de/en | https://www.instagram.com/documenta_official | @documenta_official

Tate: https://www.tate.org.uk/ | https://www.instagram.com/tate | @Tate

Ian Kiaer: https://alisonjacques.com/artists/ian-kiaer

Olivia Guigue: http://www.oliviaguigue.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/oliviaguigue/

Pearl Jam: https://pearljam.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/pearljam

A Book of Burning Matches exhibition: https://repository.londonmet.ac.uk/6423/1/De-Oliveira_ A-Book-of-Burning-Matches_V3.pdf

David Price on Substack: https://davidpricework.substack.com/

Lucia Nogueira: https://www.luhringaugustine.com/artists/lucia-nogueira#tab:thumbnails

Patrick Jolley: http://www.patrickjolley.com/

Joseph Kosuth: https://www.skny.com/artists/joseph-kosuth | https://www.instagram.com/josephkosuthstudio/

Hal Foster: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Foster_(art_critic)

Komar and Melamid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komar_and_Melamid

Hans Haacke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Haacke

Sea of Tranquility: https://hansopdebeeck.com/bookshop/sea-of-tranquillity

Sand novella: https://www.abebooks.com/first-edition/Hans-Beeck-Sea-Tranquility-novella-Sand/30087411544/bd

Ole Jørgen Ness: https://galleririis.com/exhibitions/6

Marit Følstad: https://folstad.net/ | https://www.instagram.com/maritfoelstad/

Christo & Jeanne Claude: https://christojeanneclaude.net/ | https://www.instagram.com/christojeanneclaude

Ilya Kabakov: https://www.kabakov.net/

Hauser & Wirth: https://www.hauserwirth.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/hauserwirth/ | @HauserWirth

Leal Rios Foundation: https://lealriosfoundation.com/ | https://www.instagram.com/fundacaolealrios/

Me Collectors Room Berlin: https://www.instagram.com/mecollectorsroom/

Dialogue Gallery Lisbon: https://dialoguegallery.pt/ | https://www.instagram.com/dialogue.gallery/

Appleton Lisbon: https://appleton.pt/about/ | https://www.instagram.com/appletonassociacaocultural/

The Installation Art Podcast is a show about people who love and work with the contemporary art medium of installation. The host Anastasia Parmson, an artist herself, interviews internationally renowned artists and arts workers about the intricacies and behind-the-scenes stories of creating and showing work that is site-specific, ephemeral, large scale or immersive.

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Your host Anastasia Parmson: www.anastasiaparmson.art | https://www.instagram.com/anastasiaparmson.art/