What We Don't Know Podcast

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What We Don't Know Podcast episodes

July 17 From Boots the Chemist to Lewis Hamilton's Boardroom - Dr. Hayaatun Sillem & Jimmy McLoughlin OBE
This week, a special crossover episode: Jimmy's Jobs of the Future meets What We Don't Know.
Hayaatun Sillem spent eight years as CEO of the Royal Academy of Engineering - the first woman, and the first person in over two decades, to hold the role. Before that: 8 years of biochemistry, a walkout from the lab that ended her PhD overnight, and a stint advising Parliament on everything from forensic science to carbon capture.
She also co-chaired Lewis Hamilton's commission on the representation of Black people in UK motorsport, and is now a founding trustee of his charity, Mission 44.
In this conversation, Jimmy and Hayaatun cover the moment people mistook her for anyone but the CEO, the leadership skill she thinks is most underrated, the decision to leave a job she loved while she was still doing her best work, and why she thinks "more jazz than classical" is the only way to lead through uncertainty now.
🔗 Watch more from Jimmy's Jobs of the Future: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxoL7OXNn-JuGzZj7LQrtIA/
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What We Don't Know is a podcast about better leadership in a crazy, uncertain world, co-hosted by Hayaatun Sillem CBE and Matt Brittin CBE, produced in partnership with Boxlight Creative Studio.
If you have any questions or want to come on the show, email us at:
[email protected]
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TIMESTAMPS
Timestamps
00:00 — Intro
01:00 — First job: Boots the Chemist, £2.32 an hour
01:09 — Becoming head girl
01:12 — The lab walkout that ended her PhD
01:15 — Parliament and the Science & Technology Select Committee
01:22 — What the Royal Academy of Engineering actually does
01:26 — Working with Lewis Hamilton
01:32 — Becoming CEO — "So what is it you do here?"
01:35 — The most underrated leadership skill
01:39 — Splitting the leadership team
01:41 — Deciding when to leave
01:43 — "More jazz than classical" — how leadership has changed
01:44 — What's next: starting a new venture, "back yourself"
01:50 — Quick fire round
01:53 — Most embarrassing moment as a leader
01:55 — What she failed at
01:59 — Is AI overhyped?
02:01 — What separates great from exceptional
02:04 — Outro
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Credits:
Producer: Sunny Winter
Producer: Thuy Dong
Producer: Jimmy McLoughlin OBE

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1 hr
July 08 From Leaving Dyson to The Washing Machine Project | Navjot Sawhney
What Washing Machines Teach Us About Leadership | Navjot Sooni & The Washing Machine Project
This time Hayaatun is joined by Navjot Sawhney, founder of The Washing Machine Project, about how engineering and leadership intersect through a mission to reduce the unpaid labor of hand-washing clothes.
Nav describes being raised by his mother and sisters after his father died when he was eight, early leadership roles encouraged by his mother, and values of Sikh seva and Jugaad problem-solving.
After working at Dyson, he quit to work with Engineers Without Borders in India, where he met Divya, whose lack of electricity and running water inspired him to create a manual washing machine. The patented flat-pack Divya machine saves 75% of time and 50% of water, has impacted over 100,000 lives, won Time Invention of the Year, and is scaling with partners like Whirlpool and JCDecaux, aiming to reach 1 million people by 2030.
00:00 Intro
00:27 Meet Nav
02:45 Founder Life Today
03:52 Curious Childhood Roots
05:24 Loss and Raised by Women
07:12 Responsibility as Leadership
10:13 Seva Scouts and Service
11:26 Engineering and Jugaad
13:08 Dyson Dream and Culture
16:23 Purpose Crisis and Leap
19:49 India Fieldwork Reality
23:07 Washing Machine Born
26:41 Scale of the Problem
28:12 Humanitarian Training Tests
29:42 Divya Machine Impact
30:37 Leading a Blended Movement
31:12 Building a Movement
33:26 Keeping Divya Central
35:08 Billboards and Partnerships
36:41 Frugal Innovation Matters
39:21 Identity and Team Space
40:52 Resilience and Chardikala
43:58 Learning to Scale Leadership
46:06 Aspirations and Legacy
48:01 Salad Spinner Origins
49:03 Iterating with User Feedback
51:20 Pitching and Funding Reality
54:01 People Who Inspire
55:18 Quick Fire Round
01:00:08 Reflections
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Credits:
Producer: Sunny Winter
Producer: Thuy Dong
Producer: Jimmy McLoughlin OBE

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1 hr 5 min
July 01 Why Coachability Beats Talent (And It Costs Your Promotions) | Nationwide former CEO Joe Garner
Joe Garner (Ex-CEO Nationwide) on Leading Through Crisis, Values-Driven Culture & Sustainable Performance
Hayaatun interviews Joe Garner, former CEO of Nationwide Building Society (and previously at HSBC and Openreach), now an advisor to CEOs across the private and public sectors and the royal household. Garner traces formative experiences from age 11, his early leadership through rowing, and career lessons from P&G’s principle-led culture, a brief command-and-control dotcom stint, and the fast-paced environment at Dixons/Currys.
He describes empowerment at HSBC via a signed “blank” £3m marketing spend and explains how crises like the financial crisis and COVID drove introspection about ethics and decision-making.
Joe argues business overuses incentives and fear versus motivating through purpose, potential and play, and shares removing variable incentives at Nationwide. He emphasizes self-discipline, stopping before “finishing,” staying balanced, coachability (growth mindset), culture, and transitioning from workmates to playmates via sport.
TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Blank Check Leadership
00:42 Welcome to the Show
01:25 Meet Joe Garner
02:35 Life at Nationwide
04:21 Childhood Turning Point
07:22 Rowing Into Leadership
08:58 First Jobs and Values
10:39 Culture Clash Startup
12:22 Retail to Banking Leap
15:12 Crisis and Decision Ethics
16:53 The Private Lessons Book
18:42 Motivation Beyond Bonuses
24:19 Leading Under Pressure
27:56 Wolves and Wise Sayings
28:19 Wolf Proverbs Wisdom
29:16 Early Alarm Optimization
32:17 Discipline CEO Tradeoffs
35:02 Sport After CEO Life
38:07 Coachable Growth Mindset
40:41 CEO Coaching Framework
42:34 Stop Before Finish
44:15 Finance Culture Manosphere
46:57 Quick Fire Reflections
51:08 Episode Takeaways
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Credits:
Producer: Sunny Winter
Producer: Thuy Dong
Producer: Jimmy McLoughlin OBE

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55 min
June 24 The Tech Industry Forgot That Women Exist | Dr Anne-Marie Imafidon
Women in tech, AI bias, gender inequality, and the future of work
Dr Anne-Marie Imafidon pulls no punches. Child prodigy, STEMettes founder, Countdown arithmetician, and government adviser on women in technology.
She built STEMettes from £300 to £1.2 million. She watched the internet lose its mind over a Black woman doing maths on daytime TV. And she's spent 13 years trying to fix a tech industry that keeps building products that forget half the world exists.
In this episode: why tolerating a brilliant jerk is a leadership failure. What leaders actually mean when they say they "can't find" female talent. Why crash test dummies based on women's bodies only arrived in 2025. And what a portfolio career looks like when you're genuinely living one.
We also get into work, life, and legacy as a single equation - and why her definition of success has nothing to do with status.
Dr Anne-Marie Imafidon - Head STEMette, DSIT Women in Tech Envoy, Chancellor of Glasgow Caledonian University, former Countdown arithmetician.
Chapters:
00:00 Intro
00:30 Meet Anne-Marie Imafidon
02:35 Life as a Multi-Hyphenate
05:07 Balancing Time and Legacy
10:48 The Child Prodigy Myth
16:53 Opportunity Not Talent
20:45 Careers Advice and Pivots
24:55 School Trip Dog Drama
28:34 First Lessons in Leadership
32:56 Starting STEMettes Origins
35:46 Launching Stemettes
36:56 From Side Project to Scale
39:15 Tech Power and Bias
43:37 Leaders Fix the System
47:57 Inclusive Rooms That Worked
51:52 Countdown Behind the Scenes
56:44 Representation and Backlash
01:02:22 Future Skills for Work
01:07:27 What Comes Next
01:09:42 Quickfire and Wrap Up
01:13:27 Host Reflections and Farewell
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Credits:
Producer: Sunny Winter
Producer: Thuy Dong
Producer: Jimmy McLoughlin OBE

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1 hr 17 min
June 17 What David Miliband & The Nudge Unit Taught Me About Leadership | Ravi Gurumurthy, Nesta CEO
Ravi Gurumurthy on Leading Nesta: Missions, Policy, Experimentation, and Intrinsic Motivation
Welcome to What We Don't Know.
The show about better leadership in a truly chaotic world.
Today, Hayaatun is joined by Jimmy McLoughlin OBE, host of ‪@jimmysjobs‬, to chat with Ravi Gurumurthy, CEO of Nesta, about leading mission-driven innovation in an uncertain world.
Ravi explains Nesta’s three “moonshot” missions - halving obesity, achieving net zero homes, and closing the school-readiness gap for children on free school meals, and shaping policy from practical learning.
Ravi also reflects on his background in Burnley, early rebellious leadership, experiences of racism, and a rapid rise in the civil service, including work on Every Child Matters, the Children Act 2004, and the Climate Change Act.
We also cover policymaking’s short-termism, better use of data and trials, how AI and synthetic data could help, learning from failure through “crash testing,” the importance of dosage and numbers, and why leaders should focus on intrinsic motivation over incentives.
Chapters:
00:00 Intro
01:52 Meet Ravi and Nesta
06:46 CEO Role and Missions
09:17 Family Roots and Oxford
12:21 Early Leadership and Identity
14:18 Fast Track in Government
16:17 Mentors and Learning Leadership
18:33 Policy Horizons and Data
26:29 AI and Synthetic Data
29:06 Experimentation and Failure
30:08 Donor Embraces Findings
30:39 Blunkett Sack Letter
32:10 Risk Over Safety
33:40 Ungovernable Leadership
34:42 Rituals For Failure
35:54 Crash Testing Ideas
37:01 CEO As Thought Leader
40:03 Measuring Social Impact
41:49 MacKay Numbers Not Adjectives
43:56 Preparing For Policy
46:30 Motivation Beyond Incentives
47:39 Insecurity And Identity
49:03 Future Career Paths
51:08 Quick Fire Round
53:59 Dogs And Social Capital
54:55 Change Is Harder Than Thought
55:54 Hosts Reflect And Wrap
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Credits:
Producer: Sunny Winter
Producer: Thuy Dong
Producer: Jimmy McLoughlin OBE

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1 hr 2 min
June 10 Why The Best Leaders Don't Need To Prove Themselves | Hetti Barkworth-Nanton
Hetti Barkworth-Nanton on Humility, Purpose & Leading Through Trauma | What We Don’t Know (Eden Project)
Recorded in the Eden Project Rainforest Dome at the Anthropy conference, Hayaatun speaks with Hetti Barkworth-Nanton, CEO of Ploughshare and chair of Refuge, about leading change across defense innovation and domestic abuse services. Hetti explains how Ploughshare spins Ministry of Defence innovations into civil applications, sharing examples from water-protective coatings used in Samsung phones to laser-detection tech adapted from battlefield needs to air ambulances and sport.
She traces formative influences - rural upbringing, her father’s death, early lessons on commitment, and being “spark spotted” into senior roles at British Airways, including being the “Project God.”
Hetti describes the murder of her friend Jo Simpson, resulting trauma therapy, later breast cancer, and how these experiences drove her campaigning, founding the Joanna Simpson Foundation, and her leadership at Refuge amid controversy and difficult board decisions.
Key lessons: systems thinking, curiosity, resilience, boundaries, and humility.
Chapters
00:00 Intro
00:45 Welcome To Eden Project
02:35 Two Leadership Roles
04:33 Rural Roots And Loss
08:01 Finding Self Belief
09:56 Strawberry Field Commitment
11:10 BA Breakthrough Roles
16:17 Project God And Servant Leadership
22:29 Why Domestic Abuse Matters
27:19 Trauma Therapy And Authenticity
29:49 Trauma and Cancer Reset
33:24 Purpose Over Corporate Life
35:06 Finding Ploughshare Mission
37:55 Defense Tech Impact Shift
40:56 UK Innovation System Fixes
43:11 Sentinel Photonics Story
45:59 Leading Two Careers Openly
48:16 Refuge Board Tough Calls
51:14 Resilience and Burnout Signs
53:55 Quickfire Leadership Lessons
57:16 Host Wrap and Takeaways

Credits:
Producer: Sunny Winter
Producer: Thuy Dong
Producer: Jimmy McLoughlin OBE

Have thoughts or questions? Email us at [email protected]

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1 hr 2 min
June 04 Andy Haldane: The Jobs Crisis & How to Rebuild UK Skills | What We Don't Know
Andy Haldane: Crisis, Opportunity & Rebuilding UK Skills | What We Don’t Know
Welcome to What We Don't Know with Matt Brittin & Hayaatun Sillem.
This is the show about better leadership in a truly chaotic world.
Across the series, episodes are joined a range of other leading figures, bringing different perspectives to each conversation.
Subscribe to not miss an episode! ▶️
⚡️ Powered by Boxlight.io
https://www.boxlight.io/
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In this episode, Matt Brittin and Hayaatun Sillem sit down with Andy Haldane to discuss his leadership roles as Chancellor of the University of Sheffield and President of the British Chambers of Commerce, motivated by working at the intersection of public sector, business, civil society and academia.
Andy describes how repeated shocks from the global financial crisis through Brexit, COVID, the cost-of-living shock and geopolitical uncertainty, that have “scarred” institutions and fueled caution that weakens growth, echoing Keynes’s paradox of thrift.
Reflecting on decades at the Bank of England, Haldane frames crises as moments when the Overton window opens for lasting reform, shaped by early experience of the 1992 ERM exit and teenage exposure to 1980s recession.
He argues robust solutions to complex problems are often simple, emphasizes active listening as a core leadership skill, and highlights influences from small-business owners. He calls the UK’s central challenge a major reimagining of schools and skills to tackle economic inactivity, guarantee pathways to apprenticeships or degrees, and share leadership across sectors.
00:00 Meet Andy Haldane
00:29 Cross Sector Leadership
02:25 Scarred By Crises
04:55 Crisis As Opportunity
08:44 Early Leadership Spark
12:28 Climbing Big Mountains
14:55 Introvert Strengths
20:09 Metaphors And Listening
27:52 Governors And Advice
31:41 Carney and Brexit
34:03 Career Growth Beyond Banking
35:57 Outrider Thinking and Cross Discipline
38:20 Pro Bono Economics and Leaving
39:50 Sustainable Work and Creativity
44:14 Skills Gap and Opportunity
47:12 Reimagining Schools and Training
50:49 Leadership as Team Sport
52:41 Speed Round and Wrap Up
Subscribe to not miss an episode! ▶️
Credits:
Producer: Sunny Winter
Producer: Thuy Dong
Producer: Jimmy McLoughlin OBE

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1 hr 9 min
May 30 What Negotiating With Putin & Gaddafi Taught Me About Leadership | Lord John Browne
Lord John Browne on Engineering Thinking, Leading BP, Climate Risk, Negotiating Putin & Coming Out in Business | What We Don’t Know

Welcome to What We Don't Know with Matt Brittin & Hayaatun Sillem.

Matt Brittin is the former President at Google EMEA. After 18 years at one of the world's biggest companies, he stepped down, took a gap year, and recently became the Director General of the BBC.

Dr. Hayaatun Sillem spent a few years leading the Royal Academy of Engineering and was awarded the Queen Elizabeth Prize for Engineering.

This is the show about better leadership in a truly chaotic world.

Across the series, episodes are joined a range of other leading figures, bringing different perspectives to each conversation.

Subscribe to not miss an episode! ▶️
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In this episode of What We Don’t Know, Hayaatun and Matt sit down with Lord John Browne.

He discusses how he describes himself as a businessman, author, and above all an engineer, explaining how engineering training shaped his systematic approach from writing to boardrooms and science.

He reflects on childhood habits of dismantling clocks, the importance of proper tools, and his early life at King’s School Ely and Cambridge, influenced by a soldier father and a Holocaust-survivor mother who stressed self-sufficiency and looking forward.

Browne recounts joining BP in 1966, learning about unions and refinery work, and formative engineering experience on Alaska’s North Slope, including early computer optimization work. He describes leadership lessons from Stanford Business School—purpose, inclusion, listening, and negotiation—and his path to becoming BP CEO in 1994, reorganizing BP around customer-oriented business units, and addressing climate risk through internal analysis, methane reduction, carbon pricing, and renewables.

He shares negotiation insights from dealings with leaders including Putin, Gaddafi, and others, then explains writing The Glass Closet after being outed in 2007 and arguing for workplace environments where people can be themselves, with safety and pragmatism.

00:00 Intro
01:38 Taking Things Apart
02:50 Joining BP in 1966
03:15 School and Rowing Days
05:06 Parents and Upbringing
07:41 Lessons From His Mother
09:22 Early BP Apprenticeship
11:41 Alaska and First Big Break
15:10 Stanford and Learning Leadership
19:50 Becoming BP CEO
24:18 Rebuilding BP and Climate Wakeup
28:51 Oil And Climate Reality
29:44 Speaking Up On Climate
31:10 Negotiating With Putin
35:39 Hard Lessons In Dealmaking
37:19 Writing The Glass Closet
39:09 Being Outed As CEO
44:05 Inclusion With Pragmatism
45:48 Resilience And Reinvention
50:25 Optimism And Future Tech
52:44 Speed Round And Farewell

Credits:
Producer: Sunny Winter
Producer: Thuy Dong
Producer: Jimmy McLoughlin OBE

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1 hr 7 min
May 20 Why The Best Leaders Make Wrong Decisions | What We Don't Know with Matt Brittin & Hayaatun Sillem
Leading Through Uncertainty: Clarity, Vulnerability & Decision-Making in a Chaotic World | What We Don’t Know
Welcome to What We Don't Know with Matt Brittin & Hayaatun Sillem.
The show about better leadership in a truly chaotic world.
Across the series, episodes are joined a range of other leading figures, bringing different perspectives to each conversation.
Subscribe to not miss an episode! ▶️
⚡️ Powered by Boxlight.io
https://www.boxlight.io/
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In this episode of What We Don’t Know, Hayaatun and Matt explore how leadership must evolve to meet chronic uncertainty, shifting from alpha certainty to humility, adaptability, and earned trust.
They discuss why clarity of purpose matters more than false certainty, how strategy can provide agency while leaving room for flexibility, and why leaders need faster shared learning cycles and better “intel” from across their networks.
Hayaatun shares how the pandemic forced her to blend personal and professional life, show vulnerability, and finally ask for help when she felt close to unraveling, reframing self-monitoring as being “safe to drive the bus.”
Matt Brittin reflects on learning decisiveness in ambiguous choices and describes leading Google’s response in Russia after the Ukraine invasion, prioritizing people’s safety and values.
Matt and Hayaatun also answer audience questions on fear, decisiveness, resilience, and admitting “I don’t know.”
00:00 Welcome and theme
01:21 Leadership playbook shifts
02:35 Pandemic as pivot
05:02 Strategy under pressure
06:56 Clarity and agency
09:50 Collaboration and intel
12:59 Sandstorm metaphor
13:57 Vulnerability in public
16:09 Asking for help
19:19 Decisiveness lesson
23:35 Russia Ukraine crisis
27:44 Chronic uncertainty stamina
29:41 Personal boardroom
30:31 Cognitive diversity
31:28 Facing Worst Cases
32:59 Welcoming Dissent
34:06 Admitting Not Okay
35:26 Peer Support Breakthrough
39:18 Safe to Drive Bus
40:18 Asking for Help
41:21 Leadership Inspiration
42:23 Learning Model Mentors
44:03 Books Beyond Leadership
45:07 Zak Brown Authenticity
47:51 Dystopian Leadership Lessons
50:25 Sleep as Leadership Fuel
51:57 Audience Questions Rapidfire
53:21 Decisive Versus Right
54:33 Resilience Not Denial
55:17 Leading Without Answers
56:43 Beyond Crisis Identity
Credits:
Producer: Sunny Winter
Producer: Thuy Dong
Producer: Jimmy McLoughlin OBE

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1 hr
May 13 Co-CEOs, Devil Wears Prada 2, AI Creativity, Brian Chesky's Hiring | What We Don't Know: Watercooler
Awards, AI, Co-CEOs & Loyalty | What We Don't Know Watercooler
Hayaatun and Jimmy pull up a chair at the coffee machine to catch up on what's been catching their eye - the City AM Awards, The Devil Wears Prada 2, a controversial Airbnb CEO interview, and your questions on noise, loyalty, and whether AI will swamp the best human ideas.
Timestamps
00:00 Welcome to the coffee machine
00:45 Are awards overrated, or do we actually need them?
02:00 The UK startups that got away: why the post-pandemic story isn't as bleak as you think
04:00 The Devil Wears Prada 2 and what pop culture gets right about loving hard work
05:30 Brian Chesky personally hires Airbnb's top 200 — genius or quietly disempowering?
08:30 Co-CEOs: bold leadership model or recipe for confusion?
12:00 Q from Flora: how do you find the signal in the noise?
16:30 Q from the comments: how long should you stay loyal to an organisation?
19:30 Q from Ken: will a billion AI ideas drown out the one great human one?
22:30 See you next time
Resource:
🎙️ Brian Chesky: AI Founder Mode — Invest Like the Best with Patrick O'Shaughnessy — https://colossus.com/episode/ai-founder-mode/
📰 Pilita Clark: Why co-CEOs might suit our tumultuous times (FT / Irish Times) — https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2026/05/04/why-co-ceos-might-suit-our-tumultuous-times/
📖 Reid Hoffman: Tours of Duty — The New Employer-Employee Compact (HBR) — https://hbr.org/2013/06/tours-of-duty-the-new-employer-employee-compact
Episodes mentioned:
▶️ Mark Read — Leading 22,000 Employees Who Bet Against You: https://youtu.be/O6oWoVf5X3I
▶️ Natasha Frangos — The Imposter Feeling Every Leader Faces: https://youtu.be/a9AHf_pMHgg
▶️ Sharon White — Why The Best Leaders Are Impossible to Read: https://youtu.be/JluTfnfJYD4
📧 Send us thoughts and questions at [email protected]
💼 Follow us on socials!:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/whatwedontknow.pod/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/what-we-dont-know-podcast/
Jimmy's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jimmy-mcloughlin-obe/
Hayaatun's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hayaatun/
Credits:
Producer: Sunny Winter
Producer: Thuy Dong
Producer: Jimmy McLoughlin OBE

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
24 min

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