This episode originally aired on December 12, 2024. Get new episodes early at patreon.com/CurrentAffairs!

Musa al-Gharbi is a sociologist with a unique, albeit controversial, take on the idea of "wokeness," laid out in his new book We Have Never Been Woke: The Cultural Contradictions of a New Elite. Essentially al-Gharbi argues that among elites, a kind of social justice language has come to be important for maintaining and enhancing their status, but has little to do with meaningfully advancing justice in the real world. He points out the contradiction between the embrace of "woke" language among many elites and their behavior. They are not, he says, and have never been, woke in any real sense, and conservatives are missing what is actually going on when they treat these people as dangerous radicals. Instead, al-Gharbi argues, there is nothing radical at all about the strands of "wokeness" found in the Ivy League.

Al-Gharbi's argument doesn't entirely persuade Nathan, and al-Gharbi joins today to answer some probing questions, like: how do we know that the use of this language is an effort at self-advancement rather than a good-faith presentation of a set of ideas that should be judged on their merits? But while al-Gharbi is a critic of much contemporary social justice discourse, he is a constructive one, who shares the goal of achieving a society free of racial and economic injustice. This makes his criticism all the more interesting and worth engaging with.

it would be mortifying for people on all sides of this argument to recognize that what they are actually fighting over is how future generations of elites understand, describe, and legitimize their social position. One side instead pretends as though CRT-associated ideas represent the "authentic" will and interests of most "people of color." The other side pretends as though an embrace of these ideas will somehow harm their children. In reality, mastering these frameworks will enhance students' social status and professional flourishing. And this is why elite schools are pushing it. - Musa al-Gharbi, We Have Never Been Woke