This is our 21st episode of the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy. We will discuss the importance of honesty and the craft cocktail recipe - the Great Scott - Rusty Nail. This podcast episode features Whiskey Maker - Doug Hall and Whiskey Drinker - Tripp Babbitt.

Show Notes

[00:00:04] Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy

[00:00:24] Theme: The Importance of Honesty

[00:01:12] Brain Brew Focuses on the Wood

[00:02:10] You Follow the Rules You Create More of the Same

[00:03:40] Brain Brew is Different and Proud of It

[00:04:05] The Promise and the Proof of Brain Brew Whisk(e)y

[00:04:33] *2% Don't Drink Whisk(e)y

[00:06:23] Brain Brew Built from Data and Learning

[00:08:30] >50% of Whisk(e)y Sold in Cocktails

[00:09:53] Start from an Idea or a Product

[00:10:23] Meaningful Unique and then Find Market

[00:11:03] Craft Cocktail Recipe - Rusty Nail

[00:11:15] History

[00:14:25] The Next Explosion: Low Alcohol and Cocktails

[00:16:59] Will Cocktails Only Appeal to Millenials?

[00:19:56] The Secret

 

 

Transcript

Tripp: [00:00:04] This is the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy podcasts where we're going to take you behind the scenes on what it takes to build a whisk(e)y distillery business. The Eureka ranch team led by Doug Hall are creating a craft whisk(e)y Company like has never been done before.

 

Tripp: [00:00:24] The importance of honesty.

 

Doug: [00:00:29] So when it comes to crafting whisk(e)y there are many methods you can grow the grain to still mature with would blend in bottle. Okay so it's grain to glass or you can buy commercial grains mature with wood blending bottle. Or you can buy raw spirit mature with wood blend and bottle all three can do it. But there's a different cost and time requirement and our choice is the third because the Ross spirit is only 5 percent of what matters.

 

Doug: [00:01:12] 70 percent is the wood. Twenty five percent is is what grains you pick to use in your whisk(e)y. And so the value add is not in the in the in the distilling the value add is an aging because that's where all the flavor comes from. Now I know people like that but that's just our choice. You can do whatever you want. That's what matters. The thing that is most important is what does your whisk(e)y taste like. And however you do it as fine but the other thing is the Zen being honest and straightforward in your communications because when you're transparent you build trust. So we're very clear on our labels that we use time compression to finish our products and that's what we do. And we explain how works. That that's it. That's what we do. And we don't hide it. It's on the front label it's on the back label we're very honest about it. And in fact we're proud that we do that.

 

Doug: [00:02:10] We're proud of it because so much of the flavor come in color of whisk(e)y comes from the wood. We're focusing on the place that matters to our customers to give you the best taste experience and give a unique to taste experience. In fact time compression is how we do it. That is the proof to do it now. You're dealing with a category that classically has no proof. It's legend and lore instead of real proof. In other words if you follow the bourbon rules exactly your bourbon because the rules are so tight it's gonna be like every other person's bourbon. I mean it's gonna have a little bit of variation on is it rye or wheat. The second ingredient but fun and the temperatures are where you are when you're doing it. But fundamentally it's all gonna be basically about the same. And so congratulations you've just gone through a process that allows you to make a product that's just about the same as the big guys but they cost you a lot more money than it costs the Giants to make whisk(e)y. We're in our case if I use 200 year wood if I if I mix Japanese wood with European oak if I start to use maple I start to use cherry. If I change the pressure cycles to replicate the seasons of different parts of the world I can make totally unique tastes and I can craft things where the taste is totally different.

 

Doug: [00:03:30] So the key here is is to be honest. And when we do something different like what we're doing with time compression don't hide it celebrate it.

 

Doug: [00:03:40] You say Yeah but people aren't like that because you're different. I go Well the only reason they should like me is because I'm different. You know I mean it's like a circular logic. People say well I don't want to tell me what we're doing. Oh that's right. So here try my whisk(e)y. It's the same crap as everybody else. Well that's not going to sell much you know. And so we like to celebrate it. And so just tell people what you're doing. Tell them what it is.

 

Tripp: [00:04:05] So Doug if we if you take the guy you break things out you know and would use the term Yellow Card but as you fill out your idea and you're going through and you have your customer your problem your promise and your proof what would you have for each of those for the brain brew. Well how would you define the customer and then and going all the way down through problem promise and proof.

 

Doug: [00:04:33] Well it depends. I mean 18 percent drink whisk(e)y. So if it was one of my products that was made for people that are whisk(e)y drinkers would be one thing if it was Scotch drinkers or nothing if it was non drinkers it would be a different one. OK. Let's take let's take the 82 percent. OK. OK. Which would be our Cuba product. Eighty two percent of the population don't drink whisk(e)y in the last year in America.

 

Doug: [00:04:54] That's the facts. That's the data. Big big survey show this. And so the problem is is that you. You like spirits but you don't like whisk(e)y because it can have a harsh and it has a bite to it. What we've got is with our Cuba product we've got an easy drinking product that tastes great over that's been made to be drank over the rocks and it makes cocktails that won't have any speed bump in them. So when you taste it you taste the smooth thing. And as you may or may not know for the five top cocktails in the world the whisk(e)y cocktails because they have more flavor than you get with a vodka. The reason we're able to do this is because we use a four grain product and we've optimized it so to smooth it and our time compression approach smooths it off. So to give you the taste of a older whisk(e)y but for the price at a reasonable price and that's what we've got. And and so you're going to get a product that won't have a speed bump in your cocktail unit tasting all this the bourbon was fine except for when I tasted the bourbon. In our case it fuses together to become one.

 

Tripp: [00:06:09] Ok. So so as you see what I'm hearing is as you built these products you had a specific customer problem promisee proof in mind for your Keel Boat versus your tall stacks versus actually.

 

Doug: [00:06:23] Well actually we weren't that smart. Oh we made the products. OK. And then we ran quantitative testing and we looked at the demographics and psycho graphics because we can do the data like really quick and cheap. We looked we looked at the data and then from the data we figured out who they appeal to. And then we optimized it for that group of people. So ours is not a matter of pontificating and then telling them what they do. Our wishes are of the people and by the people. I I've been doing this business so long that I've learned that especially when I do things that are new and different I don't know what's going to happen. And so I believe in taking it out and getting quantitative data looking at the people who are doing it and then finding out basically kind of what neighborhood of people like this. And sometimes there's none or there's not a big enough thing so we kill it. But I find a group that people like and then I optimize it for that group of people. So each of our products is different if you like smoky food and cigars you're gonna like tall stacks. If you're somebody that's a big whisk(e)y forward you like the big whisk(e)y cocktails the Manhattans and that guy stuff then you're gonna like our deckhand product. If you're more of a connoisseur of whisk(e)y and you like to drink it over ice or neat than our paddle wheel with two hundred you would is absolutely going to be your product that's someone you're gonna do. And if you're new to whisk(e)y and you've never had it before then you're gonna like our Cuba product because it's the super easy drinking no stress no bite no burn product. And so our four core products each appeal to a very different customer segment.

 

Tripp: [00:08:04] So would it be fair just just from some of our previous conversations that the Keelboat then because you're going after the 82 percent is more likely to and you know you mentioned dipping on the rocks but we also talked about expanding the market you're talking about that 80 percent 2 percent that really don't drink whisk(e)y that they're more functionally operating towards a cocktail.

 

Doug: [00:08:30] Yeah it's definitely over half of whisk(e)y and America's drinking cocktails are mixed. So yes it's celebrating. And this many whisk(e)y companies who you know they really don't they. Token cocktails they don't celebrate them. In this case here We optimized the product to make spectacular cocktails. And I'll I'll go head to head with anybody in a cocktail with it amongst the mass audience. Now if it's a hardcore whisk(e)y person I'm going to use one of my other whiskeys for it.

 

Doug: [00:08:59] The smoked or the or the the deckhand because they are bigger whisk(e)y tastes but amongst the masses that's what it's made for. There's a purpose. There's a real purpose. So to me whenever you have a line of products you've got to be able tell me why that product is in the line. If you can't justify why it's in the line then just don't do it for the sake of doing it. You're just creating a noise.

 

Tripp: [00:09:21] Okay. So so the interesting part I learned here is you kind of started with the whisk(e)y and then and maybe this goes back to the development piece when you were talking about developing of it whether it's products services the same thing with whisk(e)y that you're kind of in the development process you continually are learning and and you know modifying the product associated with people steering you in different directions in association with what happens in that development process.

 

Doug: [00:09:53] Yeah I'm a I you can start from an idea or you can start from a product you can even start from a package. I like it when I start from an idea sometimes it's just not possible to make the product. So my bias and let's say that you can't my bias is figure out a cool product that's meaningful unique and then figure out how to market it.

 

[00:10:23] And usually if you can find a meaningful unique product you can find a way to sell it not always. This time if you make it meaningfully product but there's no way to sell it. But the number of times that you fail because you have an idea but you can't physically do it you can't make the whisk(e)y make that you can't create that that's much greater. And so I like to start from meaningful unique products and build them out. It's much faster process for doing it in my mind but then again I can make whisk(e)y you know very quickly I can do 72 cycles in seven days. And so I have a system to do it. If your product development process is a very slow one then that's not the case you know. So again it's just different strokes for different folks depending on where you are.

 

Tripp: [00:11:03] Okay. All right well let's move to the craft cocktail recipe says Great Scott. Rusty Nail not had the rusty nail before. I like the rusty now.

 

Doug: [00:11:15] So yeah. Okay so this is the rusty nail that's the classic from Scotland the Rat Pack in the 1960s. Drambuie liqueur from the Isle of Skye. Bonnie Prince Charlie the legend made it so it's a it's a it's a whisk(e)y liqueur and classically you would put that together with a couple of ounces of whisk(e)y or whatever type you want. And about a half ounce of Drambuie and you'd build it over ice and stir it. OK. Classical in our case a great Scot is named in honor of Scott McCauley a dear dear friend who's led the College of piping and Celtic performing arts of Canada and who sadly passed away. He was. He was not the founder but he was the spiritual founder of the College of piping which I'm very involved in and just a dear friend and so I named this one after him where what we do is we use our tall stacks bourbon which is a smoked product a three wood smoked product hickory cherry and apple.

 

Doug: [00:12:27] And it just creates this wonderful smoke cloud in fact as I'm talking about it I'm thinking tonight that's what going to have tonight. I think that's that's that's my cocktail tonight I think. And it's just because you get the sweet of the grand Bui and you get the smoke and so you get this sweet smoke combination which is just boom. I mean it just takes your mind to a different place because it's taken in in another world.

 

Tripp: [00:12:56] So sounds strong.

 

Doug: [00:13:00] It is. It is a whisk(e)y forward. It is not for a newbie. Right. Okay. Because it is. I mean there is some sweetness to it so it tones it down the drain is pretty sweet so but it is it is not for a newbie.

 

Tripp: [00:13:13] Okay. You know there's a couple couple of things you've talked about you've talked about different riffs and we've talked about you know starting with with add an original recipe and then kind of going from there. You know I threw out on some of these social media sites on Facebook. I just said you know hey what do you what do you kind of mixed drinks do you have or cocktails Do you have with your whisk(e)y. And it's pretty much everybody kind of has the same thing and one person isn't mentioned a Sazerac but most of the other people said an old fashioned or a Manhattan. Those seem to be the the ones that are I you know on their people's minds anyway that they they find to be their favorites are there. I mean I also then because of some of the things that we've talked about during our episodes of different drink. So I for the I can't remember a propaganda mismatch these but for instance I remember there were some relationship I think between the Manhattan and the Boulevard. So I said and I asked people I said you know have you tried to Boulevard you know so different people I got different people out there at least trying different things you know from that standpoint.

 

Doug: [00:14:25] Well we are the it's the next explosion in alcoholic beverages. I believe there's gonna be two. One is going to be low out low to no alcohol is definitely coming and we're working in that space and it's gonna be huge but it's all in it and it's gonna be cocktails and but not cocktails out of a jug of high fructose corn syrup sweet and citrus junk. But the craft world is fresh juices.

 

Doug: [00:15:01] I was amazed. I went I was in New York recently for a thing with innovation engineering and went to see a show and I went into a Anthony Bourdain dive bless you know he's passed away but. But this was like I tried to find a fancy cocktail bar near Times Square and I couldn't find anything that was worthwhile. So I went into it basically a Cuban dive. I mean it was not shall we say it was a more of a working man's place not a high society place. And and I ordered the Hemingway which we've talked about because it was Cuban and they had Hemingway on it and I thought and I figured I was gonna get myself you know a sugar sweet thing done and damned if the guy didn't literally right in front of me It's fresh squeezed the juices brings me the cocktail and I said Man that is amazing.

 

Doug: [00:15:56] I can't believe it. He says well you know I have a lot of pride in what I do. And this is the bartender and I thought tab that's awesome. You know he's not in a hot toddy place. The drinks are not stupid prices but he is a person and supported clearly by the owner that they're going to do honest work and do it. And the more we get that the more the everyday hotel bar the restaurants the chains make a commitment to doing real stuff.

 

Doug: [00:16:29] We're gonna see an explosion in cocktails our cocktail experience is just ridiculous. I just think it's just going to be the next wave. That's every art we're opening up over in London and everybody over there is talking it's gonna be cocktails cocktails and cocktails. So so hopefully we'll open this up. And while I love the Manhattan and I love old fashioned and they're great cocktails.

 

Doug: [00:16:56] There's just so much more you can do so much more you can do.

 

Tripp: [00:16:59] Will be interesting to see and maybe that's not the market here but how do you how can you move people off of those into things like the boulevard or even new drinks that are out there. Do you have you kind of written off the people are closer to our age and you're talking about the people that are the millennials that are coming up is that that kind of the focus.

 

Doug: [00:17:21] No actually I think both. No no no.

 

Doug: [00:17:24] The older people are looking for something new. They're looking for something different now.

 

Tripp: [00:17:28] I agree.

 

Doug: [00:17:28] As a percentage of them. And and there are you know there are drinks out there that you can turn around and do the prop. Some of them have been trashed because of you know the quality that was done you know in many cases what's happened to the whisk(e)y Sour is is that bad bad sour mix as opposed to making Phillips one where we use lime lemon and orange juice as well as the zest from the fruit as we're making it. And you know we start to make it that way without with a one to one simple syrup not a two to one. In other words one part sugar one part water and then using three quarters of a cup of juice you're not getting that sticky sweet the zest gives you freshness you taste that and it's an amazing drink. Mm hmm. And so in some cases you got to do that but in other cases you know it's so you like an old fashioned. That's cool. Well I give you a gold rush and instead of using you know a sugar cube I'm using honey water instead of using orange I'm using lemon juice. So it's a cousin to the old fashioned but the honey gives it some depth. The lemon juice gives it a brightness to it and it's it's not scary to you it's it's a variation on it. And then once you learn that I show you. Okay well you can do a riff do you want to turn around use pineapple juice instead. And we call it a risky whisk(e)y. So now I've used honey water and pineapple and suddenly we got people becoming cocktail chefs who can make their own stuff as opposed to focused on the cookbook.

 

Tripp: [00:19:12] That's interesting. I could be curious as you get deeper into this especially with some of these new products that you have as you go into bars because you've talked quite a bit about you know sometimes you go in a bar and you see the stuff in the mixers and those types of things and then there's the guy like you you just talked about you know from where from the Cuba restaurant you know that that was you know really into a craft cocktail you know really wanted to make something special. I'm curious if the the Doug part of you is going to be I'm only going to sell if they got to eat bars if they have the right you know bartender or the right attitude or something is that is that in your mind. I don't know.

 

Doug: [00:19:56] Yes it has. OK. As it has. We have it figured that out yet. But but will encourage them with positiveness with apps that point people to it. So you ready for this OK. This is the first time we've announced this. This is a secret so don't tell anybody okay. Here is the stuff that gets me in trouble. Okay.

 

Doug: [00:20:16] So so recently we did we had a whole bunch of people taste a stupid number of cocktails and answer a ridiculous number of questions on what kind of foods and beverages they liked. OK. You like smoked food Hot vs spicy food sweet versus our salty verse are all kinds of questions like and then the you know the ranch has some like ridiculous super brains for a computer program and data analysis which is why innovation in theory has all these artificial intelligence apps that makes you smarter than you are which I always need you know because it helps me.

 

Doug: [00:20:49] Well Gregg has built and we've got a rough prototype and he's got also got a mischievous sense of humor. Where up comes a question Ed you know this apps where you swipe right and you swipe left. Oh yeah. Yeah well you swipe right and you swipe left whether you like that thing or not. And after you do the swiping it literally the app then brings up a customized cocktail just for you.

 

Tripp: [00:21:16] Oh really.

 

Doug: [00:21:17] So it takes you down through to find the cocktail that you would most like. I'll send you a link to that. Actually I can't give you the demo to it because he's he's gonna do anything but and and so and it doesn't just make a cocktail that makes your cocktail that's though it will adjust the amount of alcohol it will adjust. Well what do you have fears to the thing. It adjusts which whisk(e)y you should use. And so it's literally creating your own cocktail recipe. And so we think this is gonna be pretty cool. Yeah. So what will happen is people will be able to do the app and it will tell them which bars in the city have cocktails that match their taste and what the name of the cocktail is.

 

Tripp: [00:22:09] Well you're only going to be able to do that for Cincinnati right.

 

Doug: [00:22:13] And then we'll do it in every other city with our partners.

 

Tripp: [00:22:16] Okay. I get it. All right. Well that's cool yeah. No. That'll be that'll be something.

 

Doug: [00:22:22] That's stupidly cool.

 

Tripp: [00:22:23] Yeah it is. Yeah. That that that's taking your research and actually making it applicable to you know the where the rubber meets the road place. So that now that's that's great. Now I can't wait. So when will we see this thing you know more in the public eye.

 

Doug: [00:22:42] I have no idea when it sort of bizarrely this is my answer is is when it's right. OK. You know when it works out and I don't you know I'm in this business for the long term. So unlike stupid people who just say well you have to ship it may 1st whether it's ready or not ship it. And then you ship something crappy when we feel good enough about it and the testing shows I mean because right now some of the strains are really really good at picking people. The cocktail some of them are not because it's like this whole algorithm they go through.

 

Doug: [00:23:17] And so we have to do some more optimization on it to get there. But when we've got it so that it's working more times than not and giving added value to people then we'll ship it. So when we ship it it works and we don't ship crap so we don't ship bad products. We don't ship bad software. It has to work.

 

Tripp: [00:23:36] So cool. All right. Well bringing honesty to the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy or the importance of it. Any final comments on it.

 

Doug: [00:23:47] Yeah. So this I think it pays the hall folks. Don't tell me it's mostly true. Don't tell me it's kind of true. Tell me the truth the whole truth. Be honest with yourself. Be honest with those you work with. Be honest with your customers. And when you do that you're going to have boundless energy and but as Ben Franklin said it's easier to suppress the first desire than all those that follow it. The minute you start to shade it a little bit kind of sort of it's OK. Then the next thing you know you're just selling crap and nobody needs crap. Let's do great things it's a good way to end it.

 

Tripp: [00:24:49] Have you ever thought about owning your own craft whisky business. Well subscribe to the Brain Brew Whisk(e)y Academy because in the early 2019. We'll be offering opportunities to start your own business whether you are an aspiring entrepreneur curious about innovation or just like a good story. The brain brew whisky Academy podcast will take you behind the scenes to learn the good bad and the ugly about what it takes to create whisky in the craft space. Which is growing at a crazy rate. Lessons learned can be applied. Broadly.