This episode is the conversation that led to my solo essay and episode, Division Isn't a Mystery. It's a System.

In this mostly unedited discussion, I'm joined by John Abrons to think through why so many issues in America feel increasingly divided — why common explanations miss what's actually happening beneath the surface.

Rather than debating positions or defending beliefs, the conversation focuses on how polarization forms, how systems reward behaviors, and disagreement gets collapsed into sides and certainty.

The discussion is intentionally messy. It reflects real thinking in motion, not a polished argument or a pre-decided conclusion.