In this episode, cognitive psychologist Jonathan Schooler joins us to explore a radical reframing of consciousness. Schooler is a Distinguished Professor of Psychological and Brain Sciences at UC Santa Barbara and a leading researcher on meta-awareness, mind-wandering, and conscious experience.

We dive into Schooler’s Nested Observer Window (NOW) model, examining how awareness may be layered rather than unified, how meta-awareness differs from conscious experience, and why mind-wandering offers key insight into the structure of the mind. The conversation spans openness to experience, AI and consciousness, panpsychism, the hard problem, integrated information theory, psychedelics, time, entropy, and the nature of self and purpose.

We cover a wide range of ideas in this conversation, so stay through to the end — and consider following if you’d like more long-form discussions like this.

Hierarchical consciousness: the Nested Observer Windows: https://labs.psych.ucsb.edu/schooler/jonathan/publications/2676

Three dimensions of time: An approach for reconciling the discrepancy between experienced time and modern physics: https://labs.psych.ucsb.edu/schooler/jonathan/publications/2856

META Lab: https://labs.psych.ucsb.edu/schooler/jonathan/