Mike Garrison: All right, everybody welcome to the why should I refer you? Podcast. Which is totally my style. We're just going to come out the gate, ask the hard question in fact, I would argue, the most important question in business is, why should I refer you? And today's guest, the 1st official superstar on this podcast is the dude who's responsible for this podcast happening.

Larry Levine: Come on, Garrison!

Mike Garrison: Totally, Larry. So I'm gonna explain that late 1st 

Larry Levine is the best friend I've ever had that I've never met physically. We tell each other we love each other every time we finish in.

Larry Levine: True truth to that everyone, truth to that.

Mike Garrison: Right, and yet we've never met. We've we've met, we've had a surrogate, so like Daryl Amy is our surrogate. So I hug Daryl Larry Hugs Daryl. And that's kind of how it works.

Mike Garrison: Larry. other than being my most trusted and most respected voice in the sales world. Tell everyone a little bit more about yourself, including why we 1st became friends.

Larry Levine: Well, I thanks, Mike and I, you know I wish you so much goodness on this podcast. When it comes to referrals, you know I look up to you. I just think you're the referral whisperer. I've often shared that with you, but for those who don't know me my name's Larry Levine, I mean Mike and I I can't. It was so funny Mike and I were on it. This is this is, gonna go off tangents, people y'all just gotta just hang with us. But I was on a call with Mike. This was a couple months ago, and he was saying, Hey, you know, we've only been connected. What maybe, like.

Mike Garrison: 8 7 8 years.

Larry Levine: 7, 8 years, and wasn't it like you? Tell me.

Mike Garrison: It was 12 or 15.

Larry Levine: It was like incredible. But just how time flies by. But it's truth. I love this guy. He has a message. It needs to be heard one of these days. I know we're gonna slap high fives face to face. But we met. We met in the social lane we met in the social lane, because our messages resonated with each other, and we had an interesting backstory because we all grew up, you know, back in the days when we were peddling copy machines, but I but peddling seriously, but I took my 3 decades of selling copiers in Los Angeles, and I parlayed that into bringing a message that I believe sorely lacking in the sales world today, Mike, and that's how to bring authenticity, how to bring trust, how to bring the best version of yourself to the forefront. So I've been blessed to have a podcast now going on almost 8 years with my dear friend Darrell, Amy, selling from the heart selling from the heart how your authentic self sell you sells you has been out 6 years now believe it or not. and I just released my second book Selling in a Post Trust world just a few months ago. So I'm all about authenticity and trust in the sales world.

Mike Garrison: Epic book. Right? So 1st of all, everyone listen to this, buy both books, but read selling from the heart, first, st because it sets the table. but the the the trust one's amazing because you have me on your podcast and this is why this podcast exists and you you were like talking to Daryl, and you said, Yeah, Garrison, the one the one thing you told me when I was out, when you said you were out walking in 1,000 oaks, 1,000 oaks, right.

Larry Levine: Yeah, correct.

Mike Garrison: You're like you asked me this profile question, which is, are you referable, Larry? Are you? Are you referable?

Mike Garrison: And I I gotta tell you, Larry, that that thing launched something in me. Right? So I'm doing some. Some success is finally starting to come my way. But I the more I consider that real question is, which is, why should I refer you? The more I I consider that question. the more 30 years of trying to help people understand how to be productive with referral marketing without ruining your life. And we've seen it like people that just start networking. But don't have a plan. They don't make quota. They go out of business, and they're like referrals. Don't work. It's like, no, you didn't have strategy right. But that's the most important question. Because guess what inside of why should I refer you is, why should I meet? Why should I buy like those those 3 questions, span an entire business? And so, and you're the perfect person, because, like, I will say, we peddled copiers. But we didn't work for that company that had a copier in the car.

Larry Levine: Yeah.

Mike Garrison: Drove around. I'm not saying the name of the company, but I hate them. 100% hate them because I'd walk into one of my accounts, and there's that bleeping copier from that bleeping company.

Larry Levine: Yeah.

Mike Garrison: They're like, well, they just offered to leave it here, I'm like, Oh, hey?

Mike Garrison: So any anyways. So, Larry, the 1st question we're gonna hit and this is a big one. So we're gonna go big. And then we're gonna get narrow. But what is your experience with referrals in business?

Larry Levine: Yeah, hey? But I'm gonna answer this. I'm gonna answer it, and I'm not dodging it. But I I do. I want to play off of the are you referable? Because it's going to blend into answering your question. But I think the reason why this came up, and Mike and I've always gotten into some wonderful conversations when I'm out for walks. But I want us to think about this for a moment, because my experience with referrals all comes back to. I believe I'm referable, and the reason why I believe I'm referable is because I pour my heart and I pour my soul into my clients. I shine the light on my clients, I help them become better. I not only get to know them as a business person, but I get to know them as a person.

Mike Garrison: So congratulations on ruin, the entire podcast.

Larry Levine: That.

Larry Levine: And, by the way, and by the way, I and you know that's that's not. That's not my style, but it goes back to. I think the reason why most people experience with referrals is more negative than positive it goes back to. Are you referable? What have you done to become referable. And we started sharing this prior to the You know us recording. This is, I hold you in high regards, Mike, when it comes to referrals, because I think you know, I've said I've coined this thing. You're the referral whisperer, and I and I said, You know, tongue in cheek. You know way more about referrals in integrating them than I do. But right? But the the big BUT. Is. I just learned that the more I poured myself into my clients the more I understood their goals, their dreams, their aspirations, and how I can help them get there. Then this happened, the more I believe I've earned the right to ask for help. and I equate that help to referrals. So you know my ex. My experience in this is, I just believe that the more I poured into these people, the more they would pour into me and the way and my experience with asking for referrals it wasn't referrals to a sale. It was just a referral to a conversation I can have with somebody, and the common theme in all of this was the 3 people that were in the mix myself, my client, and the person they referred me to, and all I was looking for was a conversation. So all my experiences referrals have been positive. I haven't had that much negative experience with referrals, because the referrals that I got were referrals to a conversation which pushed me to the front of the line with the trust factor. Almost immediately.

Mike Garrison: So that's great. Everyone. There is a transcript with this. You should read it.

Mike Garrison: So, Larry, which is normal. Everyone understand? Larry and I've been talking about this stuff for over 12 years. And so this, which is why we're not following the agenda of the podcast because we wouldn't anyways a a couple of points. I want to highlight Larry, and then get you to agree. Disagree. So the the 1st and most important part is, you're not asking your clients to make the sale for you. You're asking them to give you a favorable introduction to have a conversation that right there dramatically, and I talk about this in my book. Can I borrow your card that dramatically reduces the risk of everyone in that 3 way relationship? Right? Because fundamentally and and this is a question. Now for you, I think the biggest problem in referrals is 2 part number one. We want to offload the responsibility of being a professional salesperson onto the referral source. We want them to figure out who we should meet. We want them to convince them to meet. We want them to have that person ready to buy. Well. there's a big problem. With that. the interval of time that someone is in the market. Take a business owner is in the market particular for a particular product or service. and knows no one else to buy from is so small. It's not funny, and yet so much of marketing, so much of sales, and almost all of the other referral people are trying to identify that brief moment in time. What you need to do is exactly what Larry said. You need it. Part of being referable is not having to be introduced to somebody ready to buy. but knowing who you want to meet knowing why you're worth meeting, even if they're not buying and being valuable because of your intent, which is why I love your book. Why, I recommend it, you know, selling from the heart isn't closing from the heart it's selling, it's conversating. What do you think about what I just said? You agree with that.

Larry Levine: No, no, I agree. And I just gotta. I have to play on this because I write about it in selling from the heart. Mike. And and I think this has everything to play. This has everything to do with what we're talking about. And it was simple. And it's just this is something I held myself accountable to. Now I coach to it is if you want to have a full sales funnel. you have to build a full relationship funnel. Yes, and and so where? Where I'm going with this and how it plays with referrals is weak sales, funnels cause salespeople to do things they normally wouldn't do if their sales funnel was full. So let's equate this to referrals. So let's just say right. Let's just say, for instance, I'm that salesperson who has a weak sales funnel. and I believe in referrals, and I believe in the power of referrals. So when I have a weak sales funnel, and then I go and ask somebody for a referral in the back of my mind. Correct me if I'm wrong in the back of my mind. I'm going, man. I hope this is a referral to a sale because I got an anemic pipeline. So you've walked in. You've walked into this referral. Ask with high intention and high attachment. because I got a because I got a weak funnel. So now, if we flip this around, and if you do it consistently, which means you got to do it daily, and it just requires practice. It requires intentionality. This is where I believe you can flip the script on referrals is every day. You must be asking people now, this could be clients. These could be your centers of influence. These can be prominent people in the marketplace that you know that you've built friendships with, and things like that. These could even be prospects along the way that you've had conversations with, but you have not yet sold them something you just ask. And it's just to ask for, you know. So just like, Okay.

Mike Garrison: I'm gonna challenge you cause because you're you're you're not wrong. But you're missing all the benefits of referral scaling. Yeah. And it's unique because yours, you've spent years pouring into people. Right? So you've got a but 2 things. Number one. The reason people have a weak, inbound referral funnel is because they have no outbound referral funnel right? And so at the core. If you are somebody that wants to really take advantage of referrals. you've got to figure out first, st how you're going to consistently and predictably give referrals to people. because that number one that will 3 x the amount of referral conversations you have cause. I'm here to tell you, and this is this is. The problem with with having your default referral strategy be asking for referrals? Is it limits? How many conversations you can have about referrals? Because people only have so much bandwidth to help you. But when and this like, well, I'm challenging you. But I know you're doing it. I'm just trying to reclarify terms. Yeah. when when most of your referral conversations which 90% of mine are are about how you are effectively giving them ideal introductions as a normal part of what you do, scheduling it. I do between 10 to 20 meetings per month. in which the only thing I'm doing is identifying who that person needs to meet and referring them like that's that's the the biggest part of my sales. Funnel is actually around outbound referrals. The advantage of that is when I do ask. I have an extraordinarily high success rate, because there's leverage in the best sense. The other big thing that people don't get is you can't offload specific spit that word specificity. whatever that. Can you say it for me, Larry?

Larry Levine: Specificity.

Mike Garrison: That word. You can't offload that on your client. I couldn't even say it. And here's what happens. You ready. Larry. Look, we're gonna do a test. We're doing a test. We're doing good on time. Would you mind giving me the name and the company of a prospect that you would love an introduction to right now. Can you think of one.

Larry Levine: Are you asking me to give you an like a real like a real.

Mike Garrison: Absolutely.

Mike Garrison: Who's somebody you want to meet.

Larry Levine: okay, I'm I'm going for the gusto on this one who's somebody I want to meet. Because I look up to this person I want to meet Craig Grischel.

Mike Garrison: Okay? Well. me, too. You can go 1st you get in. I'm second. So here's the thing I know of, Craig. But I don't know him. It takes a second, a millisecond for me to figure that out. And that's the number one problem. When people ask for referrals, they're not asking based upon research. right, which now is social. We've got unprecedented access. They're not doing the pre work. When I, my system is, for example, I'd love to meet Michael Kitsis. Do you know, Michael Kitsis.

Larry Levine: No.

Mike Garrison: All right, if you did. Michael Kitsis is one of the most credible, widely known financial services experts in the world. He's amazing. Guy. I'd love to meet him. Somebody else, I know knows him and is working on it. But I always like multiple referrals for a big dog. You know what I'm saying. Like, if you can get 3 or 4 people helping you get an account, you win it. It doesn't take you a second to know about it. But if you did know him, my next question would be, Hey, Larry. that's awesome. Would you be comfortable having a conversation about whether or not, you might be willing to introduce me. I don't go for the hey. Will you give me the referral I 1st identify? If you know the person. Second, let's qualify and reduce perceived risk. I'm not asking you to give it to me and ask to have a conversation. then that conversation is naturally and I mean, naturally, 100% gonna evolve to. You know what we're connected on, Linkedin. I have no freaking idea who he is or Hey,... this is one of my best friends. And now we start. So you always do. Who to refer before how technique follows the relationship? It does not lead the relationship.

Larry Levine: So so here's here's what's interesting. And I knew we'd get into a good conversation around this. So I got to go back because I want to bring. Now we're all I have my style when it comes to all of this, just like you have your your style, but I am going to share with everyone who's listening or watching what worked gold for me. And it's probably going to go against every Mike Garrison grain on this.

Mike Garrison: What it worked and.

Larry Levine: No, but but it worked. But here, here's why I'm a massive believer. If you want to get referrals, you gotta give right. And the way you're gonna get. This is hang with me on. This is if you, as a seller, can understand the outcomes, the goals, the initiatives that the people you're working with want to achieve a you might be able to help them with some of them. You're probably not going to be able to help them with all of them. That's where you can pull in your network to help them. So that's the referral giving part of this. Yes, but and I still do this to this day, but when I was in the copier channel, this is something I did, and it goes back to earning the right. And I said, this earlier in our conversation is, if you're pouring into people, you're there, you're giving them an experience like none other. It's okay to ask. You have earned the right. and this means that you might be asking more than you're giving. But it depends on how you're asking.

Yes, and so follow. Follow along with me on this, because this is the power of building net. This is the power of building a network and connecting to your clients is, and this goes back decades ago, Garrison, I was doing this is, let's just say. Mike, you're a client of mine, Mike, you're the Cfo of ABC. Company. 

Who are you?

Mike Garrison: Bad for that company.

Larry Levine: Yeah. But I'm just using as as a mere example. But we've had a course. You know, we've had a great relationship over the course of the past couple of years I've been taking care of your account. We we do routine reviews where we're sitting down. We're talking about goals and initiatives. I've been there for you. I've never broken a promise. You get where I'm going with this. And then, prior to my visit with you, Mike, I would look on Mike's network, and I would just lean into his network. And I'd write down 5 people that Mike was connected to that fit the role of somebody that I'd like to have a conversation with. Yes, and I would add, and I'd ask for help, and it would just be. It would just be something as simple as Hey, you know, Mike. I'm enjoying the opportunity and getting to serve you here over at ABC Company for the last couple of years in doing a little bit of research in your network. I've noticed that you're connected to these 5 people. Boom! Here's the list of the 5 people, hey, Mike, I'm just curious out of these 5 people, any of them that you know.

Mike Garrison: There's nothing wrong with that at all right. But here's the thing you ready earning the right to ask, and I want everybody to listen, and I I know you'll agree with me. Delivering great service is the prerequisite for retaining a client. It is not the prerequisite for getting referrals, because.

Larry Levine: No, no, I agree, because because that I mean, that's that's just the bet that's the bench. That's what they're paying you for. But if you can.

Mike Garrison: Wasn't what you were talking about. You're talking about more.

Larry Levine: Yes.

Mike Garrison: Right cause cause. Here's the thing like Larry and I sold copiers, and we sold copiers when they weren't digital, and they jammed all the freaking time. Now Larry is in California, which is nowhere near as bad as DC. For copiers. swamp humidity jams all the time. Everywhere I went there was a there was a cartoon over every copier, Larry, about copiers being broken and stuff so. But I learned early on, and you you and I talked about it is. if I could get some of my network buddies, Leon Gibbs, the commercial mover, the commercial carpet guy, the phone guy, if I could get them involved when it was the right time for the client to buy. I noticed that my referrals increased. Also. I I usually get the. I usually got to write the Rfp. As opposed to being a victim of the Rfp. Right? And, by the...