Win-Win with Liv Boeree

Can indigenous wisdom help us navigate these modern times? Fresh perspectives are in short supply these days, and it's not often you get to interview someone who has lived most of their lives entirely outside of modern society. So when I got the opportunity to speak to Txana Tuwe - elder of the Huni Kuin tribe, from deep in the Brazilian Amazon rainforest, I jumped at the chance. We discuss his life in the Amazon, his thoughts on modern technology like AI, competition, shamanic warfare and so much more. Huge thank you to him and his translator Leah for taking the time for this recording.

If you'd like to learn more, and support Tuwe's Mission of protecting his corner of the Amazon rainforest, visit here: https://www.kayaweiearth.org/Chapters00:00 Intro01:35 - His Mission in America03:30 - Ancestral Wisdom and Ayahuasca07:46 - Alternative Paths to Wisdom10:48 - Ancient Technologies15:19 - Talking to Plants, Animals & Spirits17:11 - Impact of Technology in the Amazon18:56 - Deforestation Pressures24:37 - Tribal Warfare28:14 - What can be done by us?29:56 - Tuwe's Favorite Games 31:56 - Is he competitive? Shamanic Wars?

Links:♾️ Support Tuwe's Mission: https://www.kayaweiearth.org/♾️ Earth Species Project: https://earthspecies.org/♾️ Huni Kuin Tribe - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huni_Kuin

Credits:♾️ Hosted by Liv Boeree♾️ Edited by Luca de Vico & Liv BoereeThe Win-Win Podcast:Poker champion Liv Boeree takes to the interview chair to tease apart one of the most fundamental forces shaping human behavior: competition.Liv speaks with philosophers, technologists, scientists, founders, and public thinkers to understand how seemingly win-lose systems can be redesigned into win-wins.Podcast links:♾️ Website: https://www.winwinpodcast.com/♾️ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@winwinpodcast♾️ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/03bGVUaFZmJUmEvSHNDPdI♾️ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/win-win-with-liv-boeree/id1724791350#winwinpodcast #ayahuasca #indigenous

Advanced AI is coming. Is it time for the government to step in and regulate? Or is it better in the hands of the market and tech CEOs? Or is there a more nuanced way to think about this topic entirely? 

Welcome to the ANTI-DEBATE. It's debating, but with a positive-sum twist! My guests today are two of the most qualified people on either side this topic: former Trump AI advisor Dean Ball, and OpenAI researcher-turned-whistleblower Daniel Kokotajlo. Can they find a way to bridge their differences and find a synthesis that satisfies all their concerns? What are their thoughts on the Anthropic vs Department of War & Pete Hegseth feud? Can they align on alignment? 

Chapters:

00:00 - Intro and Anthropic vs Department of War feud

3:42 - Daniel’s Story

4:34 - Dean’s Story

6:52 - Opening Statements

19:54 - Rebuttals

25:45 - Free Debate

36:32 - Steelmanning

45:40 - Red-teaming

51:38 - Synthesis

1:17:30 - Closing Statements

This video was made in collaboration with Stephanie Lepp of  ⁨@synthesis_media⁩ who is the brains behind this open-source Anti-Debate format. Huge thanks to her for helping me bring this conversation to life. Go check out the Anti-Debate website below, and create your own! 

Links:

♾️ Anti-Debate Project: https://anti-debate.org

♾️ Daniel's AI 2027 Futures: https://ai-2027.com

♾️ Dean's Hyperdimensional Blog: https://www.hyperdimensional.co/

♾️ Light Haven filming location: https://www.lighthaven.space

♾️ Synthesis Media: https://www.synthesismedia.org

♾️ Hoover Institution: https://www.hoover.org

♾️ Anthropic vs Department of War: https://www.anthropic.com

Credits:

♾️ Hosted by Liv Boeree

♾️ Idea & Production: Stephanie Lepp  @synthesis_media  

♾️ Video Editing by Luca de Vico

♾️ Intro edit by Perry Sinclair

The Win-Win Podcast:

Poker champion Liv Boeree takes to the interview chair to tease apart the complexities of one of the most fundamental parts of human nature: competition. Liv is joined by top philosophers, gamers, artists, technologists, CEOs, scientists, politicians and more to understand how competition manifests in their world, and how to change seemingly win-lose systems into Win-Wins.

Podcast links:

♾️ Website: https://www.winwinpodcast.com/ 

♾️ Youtube:   https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWgq0OZMtwtOIyMsVM_vksqdfWcM-b68S 

♾️ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/03bGVUaFZmJUmEvSHNDPdI?si=64379cc23696454f 

♾️ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/win-win-with-liv-boeree/id1724791350 

♾️ Pocketcast: https://play.pocketcasts.com/podcasts/7f708340-d17c-013b-f46e-0acc26574db2 

#winwinpodcast #AIGovernance #technology

Free speech is often treated as a political issue. But what if it’s the foundational technology that makes peaceful civilization possible in the first place?

I sat down with Greg Lukianoff — free speech advocate, first amendment attorney, and longtime leader of FIRE.org — to explore why freedom of expression is humanity’s ultimate win-win innovation.Greg strongly believes free speech is at risk across the globe. It's under threat from government censorship, and from the attitudes of citizens themselves, who have become increasingly intolerant of opposing views. These pressures seem to only be increasing as we enter the AI era, which allows censorship, surveillance and other oppression tools at scale.

At the same time, it also offers the democratization of potentially hazardous information to violent actors, only increasing the pressures on governing authorities to clamp down even harder on speech. So how do we navigate this tension?

That's what this conversation seeks to answer.Huge thanks to  @TheFIREorg  for collaborating with me on this episode (they were the ones who organised this live event)! Go support their important work at the link the below.

Chapters:

00:00 — Intro

01:42 — Why is Free Speech a Win-Win?

05:10 — Is Free Speech At Risk in the USA?

08:41 — Charlie Kirk & The Case of Larry Bushart

11:40 — How Is Technology Changing Free Speech?

18:49 — ACLU & Institutional Capture

21:57 — AI & The First Amendment

29:40 — How To Calm The Arms Race?

33:50 — The Hidden Cost of LLM Slop

38:22 — How To Design Better Social Media Algorithms?

41:07 — UK & European Hate Speech Laws & Censorship

47:18 — J.K Rowling & Free Speech Influencers

52:20 — Can Free Speech Survive Gen Z?

59:04 — How To Talk To Skeptics

Links:

♾️ Greg Lukianoff: https://www.thefire.org/people/greg-lukianoff

♾️ FIRE (Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression): https://www.thefire.org

♾️ Greg’s TED Talk on Free Speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noWh8SSeRCo

♾️ The Larry Bushart Case: https://www.fire.org/cases/larry-bushart-v-perry-county

♾️ The Coddling of the American Mind: https://www.thecoddling.com

♾️ Karl Popper — Conjectures and Refutations: https://archive.org/details/karl-popper-conjectures-and-refutations-the-growth-of-scientific-knowledge

Credits:

♾️ Hosted by Liv Boeree

♾️ Produced by Luca de Vico

♾️ Event Production: the team at Fire.org

The Win-Win Podcast:

Poker champion Liv Boeree takes to the interview chair to tease apart one of the most fundamental forces shaping human behavior: competition.Liv speaks with philosophers, technologists, scientists, founders, and public thinkers to understand how seemingly win-lose systems can be redesigned into win-wins.

Podcast links:

♾️ Website: https://www.winwinpodcast.com/ 

♾️ Youtube:   https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWgq0OZMtwtOIyMsVM_vksqdfWcM-b68S 

♾️ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/03bGVUaFZmJUmEvSHNDPdI?si=64379cc23696454f 

♾️ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/win-win-with-liv-boeree/id1724791350 

♾️ Pocketcast: https://play.pocketcasts.com/podcasts/7f708340-d17c-013b-f46e-0acc26574db2

#winwinpodcast #freespeech #AI

Which LLM is best at POKER? What about the social deception game Werewolf? This week I'm collaborating with ⁠ @googledeepmind ⁠ and ⁠ @kaggle ⁠ to explain their new “AI Game Arena” project, designed to test all the top LLMs at various games.

The Game Arena is a massive research project to create new AI benchmarks, and understand what really makes these general-purpose AIs tick. It also helps us evaluate how far along the path to true AGI we are, NBD.So who better to speak to than Deepmind research engineer John Schultz, one of the main brains behind the project.

We discuss why some LLMs are so much better than others, their internal understanding of the games (or lack of it!) and why games are a useful way to evaluate both capabilities and safety of frontier models.And friends - do please note that for the first time ever on this channel, this post is part of a paid partnership (woohoo I made it!).

So while everything I said in this interview, is absolutely my own views, there are also direct financial incentives behind this particular interview.

Chapters

00:00 - Intro

00:55 - What Is Game Arena?

01:25 - John’s Favorite Games

03:18 - Narrow AI Vs LLMs: What’s The Difference?

05:58 - Will LLM Poker Skills Transfer To Other Games?

09:00 - Benchmarks And Evals

10:50 - Prompt Design For Game-Playing LLMs

13:32 - Do LLMs Understand Concepts Like Expected Value?

14:24 - Context Window Length17:27 - Why Do LLMs Have Different Playing Styles?

18:41 - Where Does Their Skill Come From?

21:09 - Surprising Results

23:50 - Why Werewolf?

25:48 - Where Does LLM Reasoning Come From?

27:49 - Could LLMs Learning Social Games Be Dangerous?30:58 - Can Games Teach LLMs Cooperation?

32:48 - Which Games Will Be Hardest To Learn?

Links:

♾️ Kaggle Game Arena (Main Hub): https://www.kaggle.com/game-arena

♾️ Introducing the Kaggle Game Arena (Official Post): https://www.kaggle.com/blog/introducing-game-arena

♾️ Poker Benchmark – 900,000 Hands: https://www.kaggle.com/blog/game-arena-poker

♾️ Werewolf Benchmark (Social Deception Game): https://www.kaggle.com/benchmarks/kaggle/werewolf

♾️ Google DeepMind (Research Organization): https://deepmind.google

♾️ Polaris Library (DeepMind, Open Source): https://github.com/google-deepmind/polaris

Credits:

♾️ Hosted by Liv Boeree

♾️ Produced by Luca de Vico

The Win-Win Podcast:

Poker champion Liv Boeree takes to the interview chair to tease apart the complexities of one of the most fundamental parts of human nature: competition. Liv is joined by top philosophers, gamers, artists, technologists, CEOs, scientists, politicians and more to understand how competition manifests in their world, and how to change seemingly win-lose systems into Win-Wins.

Podcast links:

♾️ Website: https://www.winwinpodcast.com/

♾️ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWgq0OZMtwtOIyMsVM_vksqdfWcM-b68S

♾️ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/03bGVUaFZmJUmEvSHNDPdI?si=64379cc23696454f

♾️ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/win-win-with-liv-boeree/id1724791350

♾️ Pocketcast: https://play.pocketcasts.com/podcasts/7f708340-d17c-013b-f46e-0acc26574db2

#winwinpodcast #AI #poker #kaggle

Superintelligence is predicted to arrive within a decade. If that's true, then what comes AFTER? And how can we prepare for it?Which is why I sat down with one of the few people actively thinking about this: philosopher Will MacAskill. Will heads up Forethought, a research nonprofit focused on how to navigate the transition to a world with superintelligent AI systems. He’s also a former Oxford University professor, and a co-founder of the effective altruism movement. In this special Win-Win Live conversation, we discuss why “utopias” often fail, the growing risks of authoritarian lock-in, whether moral progress survives in a post-labor world,, and how the transition to a post-superintelligence world may be more crucial than the development AGI itself. Also, lots of chat about the sun, space and the high seas.

Chapters: 00:01:10 — Intro00:04:11 — Frameworks For Thinking about The Future00:06:40 — Why We Need to Think About These Questions Now00:10:50 — Post AGI Worlds00:14:16 — Blockers of Positive Futures00:20:11 — Hedonium00:23:45 — Universal Basic Resources00:29:23 — Suffering Risks00:33:52 — Viatopia00:37:50 — Can We Understand — and Steer — Moral Fashions?00:43:06 — Can AI Repair Our Shared Reality?00:49:45 — Pluralistic Futures: Choosing How We Want to Live00:54:57 — The Dangers of Elites Controlling AI01:03:14 — Can We Measure How Well We See the Future?01:06:50 — Purpose in a World of Abundance01:09:20 — Sci-Fi Ideas Worth Writing Now01:16:29 — Meaning in a Post-labor Economy 01:21:24 — How Does Moral Progress Actually Happen?01:27:45 — Will’s Call to ActionLinks: ♾️ Will MacAskill’s website: https://william-macaskill.com ♾️ Forethought: https://www.forethought.org/♾️ Essay on Viatopia https://www.forethought.org/research/viatopia♾️ What We Owe the Future (Will MacAskill): https://www.amazon.com/dp/1541618629 ♾️ Deep Utopia (Nick Bostrom): https://www.amazon.com/dp/1914741128 ♾️ Utopia (Thomas More): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2130 ♾️ The Republic (Plato): https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1497 ♾️ Island (Aldous Huxley): https://www.amazon.com/dp/0061561791 ♾️ Anarchy, State, and Utopia (Robert Nozick): https://www.amazon.com/dp/0465051006 ♾️ The Archipelago (Scott Alexander): https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/09/the-archipelago/ ♾️ Grabby Aliens Model (Robin Hanson): https://grabbyaliens.com ♾️ The Fermi Paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox ♾️ WEIRD Psychology (Joseph Henrich): https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780374173227 ♾️ Protopia (Kevin Kelly): https://kk.org/thetechnium/protopia/ ♾️ Universe 25 (John B. Calhoun): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2636191/ ♾️ Dyson Swarm (Concept): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere ♾️ Effective Altruism: https://www.effectivealtruism.org ♾️ Giving What We Can: https://www.givingwhatwecan.org ♾️ 80,000 Hours: https://80000hours.org Credits:♾️ Hosted by Liv Boeree♾️ Produced by Luca de VicoThe Win-Win Podcast:Poker champion Liv Boeree takes to the interview chair to tease apart the complexities of one of the most fundamental parts of human nature: competition. Liv is joined by top philosophers, gamers, artists, technologists, CEOs, scientists, politicians and more to understand how competition manifests in their world, and how to change seemingly win-lose systems into Win-Wins.Podcast links:♾️ Website: https://www.winwinpodcast.com/♾️ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWgq0OZMtwtOIyMsVM_vksqdfWcM-b68S♾️ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/03bGVUaFZmJUmEvSHNDPdI?si=64379cc23696454f ♾️ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/win-win-with-liv-boeree/id1724791350 ♾️ Pocketcast: https://play.pocketcasts.com/podcasts/7f708340-d17c-013b-f46e-0acc26574db2 #winwinpodcast #AI #superintelligence

What if the biggest risk from AI isn’t superintelligence gone rogue, but the inflexibility of our human institutions?

My guest today, Tyler Cowen, thinks so. Tyler is a professor at George Mason university and one of the most celebrated economists in the world. And unlike many AI proponents, Tyler strongly challenges the idea that intelligence alone determines outcomes in society, and instead points to us humans as the real bottlenecks shaping our future, for better or worse.

Together with my occasional co-host Igor Kurganov, we debate why he thinks diffusion and human adoption matter more than raw capability, and why markets remain one of the most under-appreciated signals in conversations about AI risk. Tyler also shares his views on economic growth, UBI, automation, persuasion, state capacity, why fears of mass unemployment and civilizational collapse are often overstated.

And of course, we explore what it takes to design win-win systems that scale without collapsing under their own incentives.

Oh and we discuss aliens too! A really fun one, hope you enjoy.

Chapters: 

00:00 - Introduction

01:40 – Market Driven Addiction

14:38 – Wealth Plus

17:28 – State Capacity Libertarianism

25:29 – Why Is Carbon Tax Failing?

27:14 – Climate Engineering

29:45 – Pharmaceutical Pricing

36:45 – Designing Incentives

37:24 – AI’s Impact on the Economy

53:24 – AI’s Impact on Tyler

55:25 – Universal Basic Income

59:25 – AI Timelines

01:10:45 – AI Risk Reflected in Markets

01:18:25 – Convincing Future Risk Scenarios

01:20:57 – AI as a Super Persuader

01:30:51 – Is Tyler Competitive?

01:41:39 – Strangest Beliefs & Aliens

01:46:14 – Rapid-Fire Predictions

Links: 

♾️ Tyler’s X: https://x.com/tylercowen?lang=en 

♾️ Tyler’s website: https://tylercowen.com 

♾️ Tyler’s blog: https://marginalrevolution.com 

♾️ Meditations on Moloch: https://www.slatestarcodexabridged.com/Meditations-On-Moloch

Credits:

♾️ Hosted by Liv Boeree

♾️ Produced by Luca de Vico

The Win-Win Podcast:

Poker champion Liv Boeree takes to the interview chair to tease apart the complexities of one of the most fundamental parts of human nature: competition. Liv is joined by top philosophers, gamers, artists, technologists, CEOs, scientists, politicians and more to understand how competition manifests in their world, and how to change seemingly win-lose systems into Win-Wins.

Podcast links:

♾️ Youtube:   https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWgq0OZMtwtOIyMsVM_vksqdfWcM-b68S

♾️ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/03bGVUaFZmJUmEvSHNDPdI?si=64379cc23696454f 

♾️ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/win-win-with-liv-boeree/id1724791350 

♾️ Pocketcast: https://play.pocketcasts.com/podcasts/7f708340-d17c-013b-f46e-0acc26574db2

What if the purpose of life is to find ways of harmonizing the forces of nature, including the nature of ourselves?

My guest this week thinks so. I sat down with systems thinker and "True Human" author Samantha Sweetwater to talk about the metacrisis and the future of civilization in the age of AI. Samantha’s work bridges complexity science, indigenous wisdom, embodiment, and systems theory to explore how humans might transition from domination and extraction toward relationship, reciprocity, and long-term resilience.

We discuss why modern institutions are struggling to adapt, how technology differs fundamentally from biological systems, and why aligning AI without accounting for the biosphere may be a category error. The conversation also explores kinship versus the hero’s journey, power over life versus the power of life, and what a truly win-win civilization might require.

If you’re interested in AI alignment, systems change, ecology, or the deeper roots of the meta-crisis, this conversation offers a radically different lens.

Chapters:

02:18 – Samantha’s Backstory

11:55 – Finite And Infinite Games

17:00 – True Human

21:55 – Exploring Dreams

34:28 – The Great Separation

38:51 – Power Of Life vs Power OVER life

44:36 – The Balance Between Masculine And Feminine

1:05:23 – Observing An Animate World

1:14:45 – Achieving Transmigration

1:24:28 – Practices To Become More True Human

1:42:14 – On AI Alignment

1:59:58 – Begin To Embody Intelligence

2:06:31 – Why Homo Sapiens Exist To Serve Sentience

Links:

♾️ True Human Book: https: //www.samanthasweetwater.com/truehuman

♾️ Samantha’s Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samanthasweetwater

♾️ Samantha's Substack: https://enlifenment.substack.com

♾️ Daniel Schmachtenberger x Win-Win: https: //youtu.be/KCSsKV5F4xc?si=lM7urTngFNuJ4oZx

♾️ Silent Spring: https: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Spring

Credits:

♾️ Hosted by Liv Boeree

♾️ Produced by Luca de Vico

The Win-Win Podcast:

Poker champion Liv Boeree takes to the interview chair to tease apart the complexities of one of the most fundamental parts of human nature: competition. Liv is joined by top philosophers, gamers, artists, technologists, CEOs, scientists, politicians and more to understand how competition manifests in their world, and how to change seemingly win-lose systems into Win-Wins.

Podcast links:

♾️ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWgq0OZMtwtOIyMsVM_vksqdfWcM-b68S

♾️ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/03bGVUaFZmJUmEvSHNDPdI?si=64379cc23696454f

♾️ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/win-win-with-liv-boeree/id1724791350

♾️ Pocketcast: https://play.pocketcasts.com/podcasts/7f708340-d17c-013b-f46e-0acc26574db2

#AI #indigenouswisdom

Britain was once a beacon of liberty, and the birthplace of the industrial revolution. So why is its economy floundering, while the USA is surging? Has a culture of extreme bureaucracy turned the former global powerhouse into a stagnant "nanny state"?

My guest today is Katie Lam, a Member of Parliament willing to speak uncomfortable truths. From the grooming gangs scandal, to anarcho-tyranny, to an environmental planning system that prioritises newts over nuclear electricity, we learn how an inappropriate fear of risk is suffocating the British soul.

We also tackle one of the most difficult conversations facing the West today: the failure of multicultural integration, and why the fear of being labeled "racist" has allowed unspeakable crimes like child grooming gangs to go unpunished for so long. Lastly, we hear her inside view on political rivalries (and friendships!), and how politicians can harness the power of competition and cooperation to generate real meaningful change.

So if, like me, you’re concerned about the creeping loss of adult agency, and righting institutional wrongs, I highly recommend this episode!

Chapters:

01:58 - Introduction

02:20 - UK vs US economies

03:49 - Is British Decline Systemic, or Cultural?

12:41 - When did the Nanny State Begin?

17:19 - Overregulation and Norma

20:24 - Reduction of Personal Freedoms

24:31 - The National Health Service (NHS)

29:51 - Consequences of Unexamined Laws

32:03 - Britain's Energy Policy & Nuclear Power

47:27 - Bravery and Honesty in Politics

50:55 - The Grooming Gangs Disaster

1:04:15 - Bad incentives for crime

1:14:28 - Culture and society

1:37:44 - How to Keep Talent in the UK?

1:48:48 - How to Make Britain an AI Leader?

1:53:50 - Quality of outcome on Brexit

1:57:29 - Parliament from the Inside

2:12:46 - Axioms to Live By

2:15:04 - Competition within politics

Links:

♾️ Katie’s Website: https://www.katieforkent.com/

♾️ Katie’s Grooming Gang Parliament Full Speech: https://youtu.be/suD-kWU45uw?si=bV0EgAngiSea_QPD&t=658

♾️ Nuclear Power “Fish Disco” article: https://www.cityam.com/labour-to-hold-fire-on-fish-disco-nuclear-power-reform-due-to-legal-advice/

♾️ Katie’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/katieforkent/?hl=en

♾️ Related Win-Win interview with Dominic Cummings -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boIi7cAPPnY

Credits:

♾️ Hosted by Liv Boeree

♾️ Produced by Luca de Vico

The Win-Win Podcast:

Poker champion Liv Boeree takes to the interview chair to tease apart the complexities of one of the most fundamental parts of human nature: competition. Liv is joined by top philosophers, gamers, artists, technologists, CEOs, scientists, politicians and more to understand how competition manifests in their world, and how to change seemingly win-lose systems into Win-Wins.

Podcast links:

♾️ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWgq0OZMtwtOIyMsVM_vksqdfWcM-b68S

♾️ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/03bGVUaFZmJUmEvSHNDPdI?si=64379cc23696454f

♾️ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/win-win-with-liv-boeree/id1724791350

♾️ Pocketcast: https://play.pocketcasts.com/podcasts/7f708340-d17c-013b-f46e-0acc26574db2

#winwinpodcast #politics

Capitalism has historically been our biggest blessing. But what if it's now turning into our biggest curse? Is it time to change the game?

My guest today believes so. Jim Rutt is an early internet pioneer, complexity scientist, former chairman of the Santa Fe Institute, and co-founder of the Game B movement... and he has a lot to say about how our economic and technological systems have trapped us in addictive, self-reinforcing feedback loops. From smartphones engineered like slot machines to markets that manufacture desire rather than meet real needs, he argues that our current “Game A” world runs on a single signal — money-on-money return — and that this monoculture is quietly eroding both our agency, and planetary stability.

Which is where “Game B” comes in: a post-capitalist operating system built on multidimensional value, regenerative economies, and what he calls "membranes" — local, self-governing communities that cooperate through trust, technology, and shared sensemaking rather than rivalry and coercion.

So if, like me, you increasingly feel that modern life is engineered to keep us divided and distracted, I highly recommend this episode.

Liv

Chapters:

01:42 - intro

03:38 - Tech hygiene practices

06:57 - what was the motivation for tech sabbaticals?

10:12 - why do people love slots?

15:02 - When did Jim decide to build responsibly?

21:38 - status games

23:34 - The market as an information system

31:38 - have the status games moved primarily to digital

38:42 - definition of game A and game B

52:14 - How to prevent system collapse?

01:05:52 - Have any practical experiments been conducted on game B?

01:18:00 - why game A is self terminating

01:27:45 - how do declining populations factor into planetary boundaries?

01:39:41 - how do we exit the game when we are within it?

01:41:45 - defeating the "Big Man"

01:49:18 - Jim's trillion dollar idea

02:00:31 - AI consciousness

02:14:36 - Consciousness vs Intelligence

02:22:48 - the dangers of ascribing consciousness to AI

02:26:32 - Rapid fire predictions

02:28:53 - Jim's WIN-WIN

Links:

♾️ The Jim Rutt Show: https://www.jimruttshow.com

♾️ Jim’s X: https://x.com/jim_rutt?lang=en

♾️ Game B wiki: https://www.gameb.wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

♾️ Game B Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/gamebcore

♾️ Jim’s essay on smartphone dopamine: https://medium.com/@memetic007/reclaiming-our-cognitive-sovereignty-f49f30eb26bb

Credits:

♾️ Hosted by Liv Boeree

♾️ Produced by Luca de Vico

The Win-Win Podcast:

Poker champion Liv Boeree takes to the interview chair to tease apart the complexities of one of the most fundamental parts of human nature: competition. Liv is joined by top philosophers, gamers, artists, technologists, CEOs, scientists, politicians and more to understand how competition manifests in their world, and how to change seemingly win-lose systems into Win-Wins.

Podcast links:

♾️ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWgq0OZMtwtOIyMsVM_vksqdfWcM-b68S

♾️ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/03bGVUaFZmJUmEvSHNDPdI?si=64379cc23696454f

♾️ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/win-win-with-liv-boeree/id1724791350

♾️ Pocketcast: https://play.pocketcasts.com/podcasts/7f708340-d17c-013b-f46e-0acc26574db2

Superintelligent AI is rapidly approaching, and humanity (specifically, the labs building it) is still a long way from proving it can be safely controlled. But what if that’s the wrong way of viewing the problem? Is there a way to instill values to the mutual benefit of both humans and machines?

In this episode of the Win-Win Podcast, Liv sits down with Emmett Shear — Twitch co-founder, former interim CEO of OpenAI and founder of Softmax — for a groundbreaking conversation on the future of AI alignment.

Emmett unpacks why the traditional “control alignment” approach, which tries to hard-code pre-determined values into AI, is destined to fail — and why “organic alignment,” inspired by nature, teamwork, and human societies, might be the only path forward for coexistence. From multicellularity to markets, he explains how collective identities form; why betrayal can sometimes be the moral choice; and how we might go about teaching AI to care for us as its own family, rather than see us as masters to obey (or perhaps more accurately, ants to squash).

Hear how Emmett's organisation Softmax is experimenting with small, goal-oriented agents in virtual worlds. Why superintelligence should emerge as societies of diverse AIs instead of a single runaway system. And how our own capacity for alignment as groups of humans may be the most powerful clue for what to do next.

If you’re ready to explore the very foundations of your assumptions around technology, philosophy and the nature of intelligence itself, this episode will be right up your alley...

Chapters:

00:48 - Intro.

01:04 - Organic Alignment.7

09:33 - The Formation Of Emergent Coordination.

16:01 - Techniques For Creating Alignment.

23:43 - What Is The Ideal Environment To Generate Alignment

30:09 - How Much Influence Is Projected On The Ai?

32:49 - The Global Super Organism That Is The Market.

40:41 - Group Questions.

40:50 - The Difference Between Coordination And Alignment.

43:02 - What Is The Win Condition For Softmax?

50:17 - How Do We Maintain The Need For Humans In The Loop?

58:57 - Selecting And Scaling The Right Alignment Model.

1:02:09 - Blowtorch Theory & Black Holes

1:04:48 - Agents Aligning With Each Other Isn't The Same As Aligning With Humans.

1:07:25 - Exploring Ai's Capability For Self Modification And Replication.

1:14:35 - The Difference Between Alignment Capacity And Aligning With Humanity.

1:18:38 - Does Emmett Believe In God?

1:25:23 - Are Humans The Appendix To The Future Super Intelligence?

1:32:17 - Is Training Ai On Human Ethics And Morality Actually A Good Idea?

1:36:17 - Will Ai Be Conscious Or Self Aware?

1:40:48 - One Axiom To Instill Into Ai's Being Created.

Links:

♾️Softmax - https://softmax.com/

♾️Nebulosity and Meaningness - https://meaningness.com/nebulosity♾️Black Holes and our evolving universe - https://theeggandtherock.com/p/in-which-i-tell-you-about-my-next

♾️AI Alignment Forum - https://www.alignmentforum.org/♾️Evolving Intrinsic Motivations for Altruistic Behaviour - https://arxiv.org/pdf/1811.05931

Credits:

♾️ Hosted by Liv Boeree

♾️ Produced by Luca de Vico

The Win-Win Podcast:

Poker champion Liv Boeree takes to the interview chair to tease apart the complexities of one of the most fundamental parts of human nature: competition. Liv is joined by top philosophers, gamers, artists, technologists, CEOs, scientists, politicians and more to understand how competition manifests in their world, and how to change seemingly win-lose systems into Win-Wins.Podcast

links:

♾️ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWgq0OZMtwtOIyMsVM_vksqdfWcM-b68S

♾️ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/03bGVUaFZmJUmEvSHNDPdI?si=64379cc23696454f

♾️ Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/win-win-with-liv-boeree/id1724791350

♾️ Pocketcast: https://play.pocketcasts.com/podcasts/7f708340-d17c-013b-f46e-0acc26574db2

#winwinpodcast #organicalignment #aialignment #ai #aisafety