George and I talk about how he learned to do what we do. He loved his classes on security, and I'm envious. He doesn't remember his classes on mathematics — I might envy that, too. We talk about how hard making good games is, a little. And we talk about how you need to think of each job as a stepping stone to the right next thing. 

For show notes, links and comments see https://justtheusefulbits.com/jtub/george-sheppard-security-uml-and-what-is-more-important-than-money/