Deesha Philyaw's fiction debut, The Secret Lives of Church Ladies, is a National Book Award finalist. She and Courtney talk about creating complex characters, writing Black women, and staying true to your vision even in the face of rejection.

In today's bonus segment, Deesha and Courtney talk about what makes good sex writing. Bonus segments are available to WMFA Patreon subscribers at patreon.com/wmfapodcast.

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