In today's episode, we talk about predatory aggression - more commonly called, prey drive. If your dog is obsessed with small animals and chasing things, you need to listen to this episode. 

I am going to cover

With any amount of dog training you can accidentally reward your dog for being aggressive which might be what is going on. 

If you're struggling with your dog's reactivity or aggression, get started with training here!

https://www.matadork9.com/reactivity

00;00;01;08 - 00;00;41;08
Michael J. Accetta
Welcome. My name is Michael Accetta. I'm the founder of Matador Canine Brilliance and the author of The Dog Training Cheat Codes. You're listening to the acknowledged dogs podcast Welcome to today's show. We're talking about aggression, more specifically, predatory aggression. When you're dogs chasing, catch and try to dispatch to kill a small animal or prey-like creature. Before we jump into why that happens, how that happens, what predatory aggression is, and all that I want to tell you a quick little story about chasing down little birds.

00;00;42;07 - 00;00;59;04
Michael J. Accetta
It's going to be a saddle. But don't worry, the bird gets away. All right. So a sad story, but the bird does get away. So you have that much to look forward to. So I walked out into my backyard, walked out in my backyard, and I had both my dogs with me. Now, remember, this is a Great Dane Border Collie, and this is a retriever.

00;00;59;05 - 00;01;16;25
Michael J. Accetta
They both come outside with me. And we had this section that we fenced off. So our dogs go to the bathroom in that section and we could clean it more easily. So we had the rest of the yard to be nice and pristine and all that. So would I bring my dogs over to that area? And one of them had the ability to jump over the small fence that would create it.

00;01;16;25 - 00;01;35;29
Michael J. Accetta
So he jumps over and makes a beeline like a direct line for the corner. He doesn't do this, you know, usually go sniff around, maybe find a spot to go to the bathroom or whatever. No, no, no. He made a direct beeline for the corner. I know that something must be over there. So I recall him away as fast as I can.

00;01;36;04 - 00;02;07;18
Michael J. Accetta
Hawk turns. He runs towards me. Just as I did that. A bird flew up into the sky. My oh, boy bird flies up and gets out of range. And my Great Dane Border Collies behind me, he leaps up the air, leaps up into the air, trying to catch the bird and just misses. So now I recall Tommy, the Great Dane Border Collie, and I put him into the backyard, a fenced area so I can see that.

00;02;07;18 - 00;02;33;08
Unknown
Make sure that the bird got away safely. Well, the bird doesn't get very far. Something had happened with its wing or it was wet or something happened, and the bird was unable to fly very far. So it lands as I'm looking for the bird my retriever jumps back over the fence out of the fenced-in area into the main yard and chases after the bird again.

00;02;33;16 - 00;02;57;18
Michael J. Accetta
I don't see this because I'm looking around for the bird. Now he goes behind me as I look around to check the fenced-in area. He sneaks around and he pins the bird down by its wings, doesn't eat, it, doesn't bite, it doesn't lick, he just pins it down and is staring at it very intently. The second I see this, I recall him back.

00;02;58;01 - 00;03;20;06
Michael J. Accetta
He'd let go. The bird flies back. I put him back in the house. I grabbed my Great Dane. I put him in the house. And now I go see where the bird is. The bird was gone. I know my dog didn't need it. I don't know where the bird one, but the bird is gone. Completely gone. How was I able to recall both dogs away from a moving target?

00;03;20;06 - 00;03;41;12
Michael J. Accetta
A bird? One that almost caught it while it was jumping in the air. And the other one twice when it was on top of the dog. On top of the bird. Literally on top of the bird. Holding it down, looking directly at it. Could have decided to eat it. I could have just said, I'm not going to recall this time.

00;03;41;12 - 00;03;58;24
Michael J. Accetta
I'm going to eat this bird. But it didn't stop what it was doing, and it came right back to me. The power of a recall is insanely important. I just talked about this on one of my social media platforms. We were talking about recording how important it is to get you to stop doing any bad behavior. Just recall them away and they will stop doing the bad behavior.

00;03;58;24 - 00;04;18;23
Michael J. Accetta
They cannot do both incompatible. They're chewing on the couch. We call they're chasing after bird recall. Okay. It doesn't help if they're already on top of you, but if they're at a distance and they're doing stuff they're not supposed to recall, it makes it ten times easier. So what is predatory aggression? Why did my dogs chase after this bird so much?

00;04;18;23 - 00;04;43;15
Michael J. Accetta
Why were they so invested in what the bird was doing? Predatory aggression is the biological purpose of your dog to chase, catch and dispatch that's it. Chase, catch, and dispatch. They want to chase something. They want to catch it, and then they want to dispatch or kill it. Now that can be a bird. That can be a bunny.

00;04;43;16 - 00;05;01;15
Michael J. Accetta
That could be a rabbit. That could be a squirrel. That could be a cat. That could be a smaller dog. And if you have a dog that's barking and reactive because of predatory aggression, you know exactly when that is, right? You see a tiny little fluffy dog and you got a German shepherd. If your dog's predatory aggression, they want to go eat that fluffy dog.

00;05;01;15 - 00;05;27;22
Michael J. Accetta
Now, there is a caveat to predatory aggression that most people forget about. If your dog is barking, they're not in predatory aggression. How do I know that? How do I have a level of certainty to say, I know that your dog is not in predatory aggression if they're barking because barking would push the prey away, why would your dog want to get the prey to go further away?

00;05;27;22 - 00;05;54;16
Michael J. Accetta
It makes zero sense. They could be overstimulated and excited and bark. They could be really friendly and want to get something and bark. They could be terrified and bark. But predatory aggression and barking do not go together. They do not mix unless your dog has learned to bark and is doing it intentionally. That goes into learned aggression. That's a little messy.

00;05;54;29 - 00;06;15;26
Michael J. Accetta
Learned aggression is a completely different animal. It's the same animal. It's just a different methodology, a different theory. That kind of thing is learned aggression that's completely different. But predatory aggression is true. Predatory aggression is to chase, catch and dispatch, period. I keep wanting to say dispatch an animal, but that's not true. Kate Chase, catch and dispatch. Anything could be a tug toy.

00;06;15;26 - 00;06;45;14
Michael J. Accetta
It could be a ball. That's my dog, love. Fetch, chase, catch and dispatch. Now, this is not a drive people talk about prey, drive, ball, drive, squirrel drive. So ridiculous. That gets very quickly. Rabbit Drive. They love Red Deer Drive. Love chasing deer makes no sense. A drive, although we've socially accepted it. Oh, drive success. Right? My dogs got a good ball drive.

00;06;45;14 - 00;07;26;00
Michael J. Accetta
They got a good food drive. It's not true because drive insinuates that it builds up in the animal and must be expressed it must be expressed. It's the wrong word. You cannot say driving is a behavior. Aggression is a behavior drive is not a drive. Oh, my dog has a lot of prey drive. The very prey-driven know they have predatory aggression, predatory aggression drive insinuates it builds up and must be expressed to the point where it'll keep building and building and building and building and building.

00;07;26;03 - 00;07;48;04
Michael J. Accetta
And at some point your dog's like, I can't hold it anymore. And then they got to go do it. It's not what happen if I had cookie drive okay. I love chocolate chip cookies. I love chocolate chip cookies, love chocolate chip cookies. If I have a food drive for cookies, cookie drive, at some point I would be satiated. That's not true.

00;07;49;09 - 00;08;05;06
Michael J. Accetta
It's not true. I don't know how I know it's not true. Because I've tested it. I want sat down with an entire box of cookies. I think it was the two boxes, but what will say is a box. So I don't doubt that it was an entire box of cookies. And I had ginger ale next to me. Why did I have the ginger ale?

00;08;05;09 - 00;08;24;07
Michael J. Accetta
Because I was determined to finish this box. And some of you might say, Oh, a box, a cookie. That's not a big box. And if a box of cookies is nothing to you, it's because drives don't exist. Because of a full box of cookies. We're like, Oh, yeah, I could eat a whole box of cookies. No problem. That's right.

00;08;25;02 - 00;08;54;22
Michael J. Accetta
And if you ate the box of cookies, you might want to go get another box of cookies for a couple more. You are not satiated simply because you ate a certain number of cookies. Your dog is not satiated simply because it caught and released all of its predatory drives. Now they are rewarded for catching and dispatching, chasing, catching and dispatching through predatory aggression because aggression is a behavior and it can be rewarded and punished accordingly.

00;08;56;05 - 00;09;21;08
Michael J. Accetta
So if your dog is increasingly increasing in the likelihood of performing predatory aggression, then they are being rewarded each time. Let me take that back. Let me take a step back there. If your dog is increasing in the likelihood of expressing predatory aggression, they're being rewarded for doing so. So they're nice and quiet. They're calm, they're staring down the bird.

00;09;21;11 - 00;09;43;19
Michael J. Accetta
They chase after it, they catch it. They did that. This dispatch that's the word I wanted to say, dismantled. That sounds terrible. Dispatch, right? They dispatch they get rewarded for the entire event. Now, break one of those things up. Chop one of those things up. I'm not going to let my dog chase the prey animal. Not going to let them chase.

00;09;44;03 - 00;10;03;21
Michael J. Accetta
Well, then they cannot catch and they cannot dispatch if I'm going to let them chase, but I don't let them catch then they can't dispatch. And if I'm going to have my dog chase and catch, but don't let them dispatch. I've broken up the sequence so for my dog Hawk, the first time I didn't let him chase him.

00;10;04;04 - 00;10;24;20
Michael J. Accetta
I interrupted him as he was chasing and called him back. So he did not catch and therefore dispatch. Now, the second time he did catch, but I did not let him dispatch, so I recalled him away. That way I do not reward predatory aggression. Do my dog still like to perk up? And they look around at the start of that?

00;10;24;29 - 00;10;43;02
Michael J. Accetta
Yeah. Can I immediately call them off of it? Absolutely. So now let's get into how do we stop our dog. How do we stop them from expressing this kind of predatory aggression? How do we stop them from chasing, catching, and dispatching? There are two ways to do it. I'll give you two ways. Maybe I'll give you a third way, but there are two ways to do it.

00;10;43;02 - 00;11;02;07
Michael J. Accetta
Actually, I'm going to give you three number one management. It's the easiest way to do it. Always, always, always. Always manage. Well, I can put a muzzle on my dogs. They do chase something, they don't kill it. I can put a nice tight leash on them. Never give them the freedom to go and try, or I can keep them inside my house all the time.

00;11;02;22 - 00;11;18;00
Michael J. Accetta
Those are your three management practices. I'm sure there's a whole bunch. And you could go on management practices for days, years even, and people do train management for years. That's what a lot of people get stuck at. I'm going to stay at that. I'm going to manage my dog's life just like we try to do with kids. All that.

00;11;18;04 - 00;11;52;12
Michael J. Accetta
I manage my kids. I'm not going to put them in dangerous situations instead of teaching them how to do those dangerous situations in a safe way. My son's two and a half years old. We go to the playground. Sure, there are some things I would much rather not have him climb on. Not because they're dangerous when he's touching them, but because he could fall after a few repetitions of teaching him how he knows exactly what he needs to do to get from point A to point B, and now I can sit back, talk with other parents and watch my son from afar and know that he can climb up ladders by himself.

00;11;52;12 - 00;12;16;03
Michael J. Accetta
That's right. Two and a half years old. He can climb up ladders. He can go up the slide, not down. So he can go down to the slide, but he can go up the slide. He knows how to communicate with his friends. He can't go down the fire pole yet, even though he really wants to. He just doesn't have the grip but he can do all of those other things, which means he knows how to exist in a dangerous situation, in a safe way.

00;12;16;08 - 00;12;40;00
Michael J. Accetta
That makes me more confident and comfortable with him playing, and it makes him more confident and comfortable. So managing your dog is always going to be the easiest way to do it, but you need to eventually move in to teach them. So the second way to do it is called stimulus control. Stimulus control is rewarding them for doing it on purpose and rewarding them for not doing it when they're not told to do it.

00;12;40;14 - 00;13;02;15
Michael J. Accetta
How does this look playing with your dog? The old way to do it is to hug you could use a flirt pole, or you could just use fetch, but you want to get their brain to that exciting level of predatory aggression and then teach them how to control it, how to channel it in a productive way. We want to get them actually thinking about doing it, but then go on.

00;13;02;15 - 00;13;14;15
Michael J. Accetta
Okay, we really want to go chase that ball. But I know I've got to listen first and I got to wait for the release cue to go get that ball. So I'm going to sit here nice and patiently, but stare at the ball, then going to look at my honor. Then we'll look back at the ball then or look back at my owner and they're going to tell me to go do it.

00;13;14;19 - 00;13;32;23
Michael J. Accetta
And now I can go chase the ball. One step above that is I'm going to teach them to go to the ball and I'm going to recall them away, just like I did with Hawk and Honey. I taught them in those high-stress situations. When I tell you to go do something, I can always call you back. I can stop you halfway.

00;13;33;00 - 00;13;50;28
Michael J. Accetta
That's the power of a really good recall and using indirect, rewarding, or rather the pre-Mach theory. In this case, they are slightly different. So I'm sending them to go do something like, Hey, go do this. Sure. Go chase the ball, go chase the flagpole. But before you get there, I'm going to tell you to do something else.

00;13;51;11 - 00;14;09;26
Michael J. Accetta
You might even have your dog chasing the flirt pole, right? You're moving around and you tell him to drop. You say down, boom, they plop down. You're still moving the floor. What's what is that teaching that it's not the chase, catch and dispatch that's important? It's engaging with you. It's playing with you, it's chasing. But I'm not going to let you catch it right now.

00;14;09;26 - 00;14;27;17
Michael J. Accetta
Maybe I'll let you catch it later tomorrow or next week. But right now, I'm not going to let you do that. But you have to teach your dogs that eventually they do succeed, and work on stimulus control. And then even the variable rewards schedule. This is all advanced up. When you have to go through the whole process, you cannot just go through one sliver.

00;14;29;00 - 00;14;46;13
Michael J. Accetta
One sliver isn't going to help you. You got to go through the whole process. That's why at Matador University, the courses that I've created don't give you 10%. I don't sell just the 10%. I don't want clients going, Okay, well, I got the 10%. I'm good. I can stop. No, no, no, no, no. You got all this way to go.

00;14;47;11 - 00;15;06;27
Michael J. Accetta
If it's worth doing, it's worth completing. If it's worth doing, it's worth completing. If you're interested in any of that kinds of courses and having the whole story, not just the 10%, not the 1% that I get to talk to you on these episodes and stuff on social media, that half of 1%, if you want the whole story.

00;15;07;12 - 00;15;36;05
Michael J. Accetta
Matador Cain Icon Slash Matador University, Matador, Cain, NAICOM Slash Matador University. Get everything. The whole nine yards. The whole ten yards. Okay. And then the second option I remember is a biological purpose, a biological purpose to chase, catch and dispatch with that. You can counter condition, and teach them to do something else in the presence of a prey animal.

00;15;36;24 - 00;16;00;23
Michael J. Accetta
I can teach them incompatible behavior and I can counter conditions. Right. Condition is something that previously meant nothing. That now means something. We can counter that and say, okay, this thing that meant nothing but does mean Chase now means do this option A, B, or C, whatever it is, right? So when they see a squirrel, their first option is to lay out this is what farmers do with border collies.

00;16;01;18 - 00;16;23;25
Michael J. Accetta
When they see a sheep, they want to go chase it, want to do something right? Yeah. Get them all type together. But what's the first thing? A border collies you do? I see them, I lay down and I'm going to stare at I'm really intent and I'm going to wait to be told to do something. And once I get told to do something and I stop doing that thing, I'm going to lie down again.

00;16;25;05 - 00;16;51;12
Michael J. Accetta
And they say they stock they get so laser-focused on what they need to do. You can teach that. And in fact, it's one of the ways I taught Tommy how to say hello to people we counter-conditioned his initial response to see somebody like that person. I want to say that his initial response was to go chase because he wanted to go tackle you to the ground and give you all of his love and be all over the place.

00;16;51;23 - 00;17;11;18
Michael J. Accetta
But instead, we taught him when he sees somebody just sit back down, they will come to him. Now, when he sees somebody and he really wants to say hello, he's got all this pent-up energy, and his butt hits the ground so fast, leaving a crater in the air. That's what we want. That's the kind of conditioning you can do when you know how to do it.

00;17;13;16 - 00;17;41;22
Michael J. Accetta
Now, what happens if they're too strong? My dog's predatory aggression is way too powerful. They have such a high prey drive. What do we do? You have to set them up for success. Teach him stimulus control and counter-conditioning. You have to do all you can't pick. Got to do all of those things. I'm going to manage their life, their situations, and what they're capable of doing, what they're able to do.

00;17;42;06 - 00;17;58;18
Michael J. Accetta
All they're not going to go out in the front yard off leash anymore. They're not going to be in the backyard unsupervised. That's number one. Number two, I'm going to teach them through play through treats, through engagement, that you can only do things when I tell you to go do them. And you cannot do them when I don't tell you to do them on your own time.

00;17;58;18 - 00;18;14;06
Michael J. Accetta
Yeah. You can sit down with the stimulus controls. What I'm talking about is if I tell you to chase something, go get it. You can go do it. But until then, don't. And then three, you got a counter condition every time they see a squirrel and me, you know, get a little stuffed animal, put it in the corner, go for a walk.

00;18;14;06 - 00;18;33;09
Michael J. Accetta
And when you see the stuffed animal and your dog sees a stuffed animal, teach him to do something. Repetition over and over and over. If your dog is that strong-willed, that strong-willed, you need to at least do all three of these steps, if not more training. On top of that, you should be doing obedience socialization, and working around distractions.

00;18;33;17 - 00;18;56;02
Michael J. Accetta
Reward schedules are a must. All of that stuff comes together. And that's the only reason I was able to call Hawk and Tommy multiple times in a row without having to treat Tommy, without having a ball, without having toys is the only reason I was able to call them away from a bird that was on the ground, at their level, in their paws.

00;18;58;02 - 00;19;15;06
Michael J. Accetta
It's the only reason I was able to do that is that I did all of those things. I manage their life while I was teaching them. I taught them stimulus control. I counter-conditioned them to over-exciting things. We worked on reward schedules. Again, that's that whole journey. If you're not going to go through the whole journey, at least go through those three steps.

00;19;15;24 - 00;19;35;29
Michael J. Accetta
At least go through those three steps or give up and just manage your dog's entire life. I'll be honest with you, that's what a lot of people do. And that's fine. You can do that. I'm not saying you can't do that, and you are going to be stuck in a box. You do not have freedom. You do not have the enjoyment that you want to have with your dog.

00;19;35;29 - 00;19;58;05
Michael J. Accetta
You just you're not going to don't put yourself in a box. I beg you, do not put yourself in a box. At least do these three things management, stimulus control, counter conditioning, and be light years ahead of what you were yesterday. Yeah, start doing them right now. Thank you guys for listening. If this spoke to you personally, if it hit you, am I going to go work with my dog right now?

00;19;58;24 - 00;20;04;04
Michael J. Accetta
Good. Turn this off right now and go work with your dog. Thank you, guys. I'll see you next time.