In the previous episode, Matthew and Shadi sat down with self-described Christian nationalist William Wolfe and gave him substantial room to articulate his account of American history and his vision of Christianity, religious pluralism, and political power. Here, they reckon with what they heard. What happens to the case for Christian nationalism when some of its underlying claims about American history don't hold up to the historical record?

Join Matt and Shadi as they explore the practical and theological arguments against Christian nationalism. What happens to religious minorities in a nation explicitly ordered toward Christianity? And, more fundamentally, what does Christian faith itself require of Christians in their treatment of political opponents, outsiders, and those with whom they profoundly disagree?

Links:

• Matt and Shadi's debate with William Wolfe: https://comment.org/podcasts/what-do-christian-nationalists-actually-want/
• Matt and Shadi wrote a book! Can Religion Save Democracy? is now available for pre-order at https://bakerbookhouse.com/products/9781587436895_can-religion-save-democracy and is currently 40% off!

In one of their most revealing—and at times unsettling—conversations to date, Matthew and Shadi sit down with William Wolfe, a self-described Christian nationalist, former Trump administration official, and founder and executive director of the Center for Baptist Leadership. Zealots at the Gate has spent considerable time talking about Christian nationalism. Here, Matt and Shadi wanted to talk directly with someone making the case for it—and to understand the worldview on its own terms.

What makes a nation a nation? How does a Christian nationalist understand what it means to love and protect one's country? Can Wolfe's vision for America make room for the religious and cultural pluralism of the country as it actually is? Wolfe lays out his understanding of American identity, patriotism, political power, and the role Christianity should play in public life. As the conversation unfolds, the disagreements become increasingly fundamental, culminating in a pointed exchange between Shadi and Wolfe over whether Muslims can fully belong within the American "we."

Links:

• William Wolfe's article "A Christian Case for America First" https://www.theamericanconservative.com/a-christian-case-for-america-first/
• Wolfe's article "How Christians Are Winning Battles in the Culture War" https://www.christianpost.com/voices/how-christians-are-winning-battles-in-the-culture-war.html
• Matt and Shadi wrote a book! The book is now available for pre-order at https://bakerbookhouse.com/products/9781587436895_can-religion-save-democracy and is currently 40% off!

Join us as we talk with David Brooks, author and staff writer for The Atlantic. Brooks explores the tensions between political resentment and spiritual longing, diversity and cohesion, and achievement and equality, inviting us to think about balance within politics. Both the Democratic and Republican parties have faced internal insurgencies. Can radicalism be justified, or is moderation necessarily better?

• David Brooks' article on his personal faith journey: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/19/opinion/faith-god-christianity.html?eafs_enabled=false
• Brooks' article on the battle for the Democratic Party https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/2026/07/democrats-fight-left-dsa/687839/
• Brooks' latest book How to Know a Person: https://www.amazon.com/dp/059323006X

Matt and Shadi wrote a book! The book is now available for pre-order at: https://bakerbookhouse.com/products/9781587436895_can-religion-save-democracy and is currently 40% off!

Evangelicals, historically, have largely supported the state of Israel. But is support waning? Why have evangelicals taken this stance, and what has changed? Join us as we talk with Robert Nicholson, founder of the Philos Project and editor-at-large of Providence: A Journal of Christianity and American Foreign Policy. Nicholson provides commentary on the history of evangelical support of Israel, current trends, and a theology of the relationship between Christianity and the state of Israel.

LINKS

• Announcing Matt and Shadi's new book: Can Religion Save Democracy? Pre-order your copy from Baker Book House and receive 40% off through its release on October 13, 2026: https://bakerbookhouse.com/products/9781587436895_can-religion-save-democracy
• Robert Nicholson bio: https://providencemag.com/authors/robert-nicholson/
• Phil Klay on U.S. Support for Israel's War: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2024/03/gaza-war-indefensible-united-states/677896/

Birthrates are falling drastically in many parts of the world. Why is this? And how does this trend relate to our political and religious lives in the twenty-first century? Join us as we talk with Lyman Stone, senior fellow and director of the Pronatalism Initiative at the Institute for Family Studies, as well as director of research at Demographic Intelligence. Stone will provide us insights into the current trends, explain why birthrates matter to us all, and offer a way forward.

Links:

Lyman Stone, Senior Fellow and Director: https://ifstudies.org/about-us/lyman-stone

Within our American context, "spiritual but not religious" is an increasingly popular title. It connotes rising above organized religion and opting instead for an individualistic, buffet-like spirituality that reflects our modern consumerist culture. In this episode, Matt and Shadi unpack this type of spirituality that is disconnected from religious institutions, practices, and experiences. They talk about why organized religion is actually vital to the health of democratic life and how it looks different from "spiritual but not religious."

LINKS

Announcing Matt and Shadi's new book: Can Religion Save Democracy? Pre-order your copy from Baker Book House and receive 40% off through its release on October 13, 2026: https://bakerbookhouse.com/products/9781587436895_can-religion-save-democracy

What does it look like for American Muslim communities to engage in the political landscape of the twenty-first century? In light of Republican and Democratic culpability in Gaza, how can Muslims maintain their integrity as well as their political participation? Join us as we talk with Omar Suleiman, imam, author, and president of the Yaqeen Institute for Islamic Research. Suleiman will offer us insight into the ways he guides his own community to think through their political engagement and understand how questions of assimilation shape the Muslim community in America at large.

LINKS

Dr. Suleiman, director of the Yaqeen Institute: https://yaqeeninstitute.org/team/omar-suleiman

The book Mere Christianity, written by C.S. Lewis, is a staple for Christians and presents what many would argue are the core tenets of the Christian faith. How does Islam interact with what is described as "mere" Christianity? What doctrines stand out as confusing, untenable, and even controversial to a Muslim? From the nature of God's forgiveness to the identity of Jesus to the existence of doubt and faith, Matt and Shadi find moments of divergence and commonality. Join them as they unpack some of the core Christian doctrines found in Lewis's classic text.

LINKS: https://www.amazon.com/Mere-Christianity-Lewis-Signature-Classic/dp/0007461216

What do American Jewish-Muslim relations look like post–October 7? Does Jewish theology compel multifaith dialogue and a commitment to pluralism? American Muslim-Jewish relations were, for a while, a model to the world as to how we can step into dialogue with one another. But October 7 changed everything. Join us as we talk with Ari Gordon, author of Sacred Orientation in Late Antiquity and Early Islam, and director of Muslim-Jewish Relations at the American Jewish Committee. Gordon will offer us a thoughtful reflection on Muslim-Jewish relations post–October 7, American Jews and their relationship to the state of Israel, and what this all means for a pluralistic society.

LINKS

• Gordon's book, Sacred Orientation in Late Antiquity and Early Islam: https://www.amazon.com/Orientation-Antiquity-Routledge-Studies-Philosophy/dp/1032135085
• Gordon, Director of Muslim-Jewish Relations: https://www.ajc.org/bio/ari-m-gordon#:~:text=Ari%20Gordon%20is%20Director%20of,engagement%20on%20issues%20of%20difference

In an extremely polarized political landscape, how do we learn to change our minds? What happens when someone dedicates their entire career to the Christian Right and then has a moment of repentance? Join us as we talk with Rob Schenck, author of Costly Grace, who offers his perspective on the religious Right and the religious Left and what we often get wrong about the other side.

Links:

Schenck's account of his time in Minneapolis during the ICE protests: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2026/02/rob-schenck-i-went-to-minneapolis-to-bear-witness-and-to-make-amends/

Schenck's book, Costly Grace: https://www.amazon.com/Costly-Grace-Evangelical-Ministers-Rediscovery/dp/006268793X