Original title: Magic, Manipulating God(?), and The Lord's Prayer

In this episode, Brendon and Skyler discuss the ninth lesson in the LDS Come, Follow Me sunday school manual. This week (Feb. 20-26) covers Matthew 6-7, and is titled "He taught them as one having authority".

We invite you to worship with us on any Sunday - either at First Baptist Church of Provo or Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna. We welcome visitors!

Note: Russell Nelson taught that: "The Lord prefaced His prayer by first asking His followers to avoid 'vain repetitions' and to pray 'after this manner.' Thus, the Lord’s Prayer serves as a pattern to follow and not as a piece to memorize and recite repetitively. The Master simply wants us to pray for God’s help while we strive constantly to resist evil and live righteously." This is why some LDS will even say that the prayer is a "rote incantation" for Christians.

Yet, Nelson doesn't even anticipate the objection about the many prayers, blessings, and ordinances in LDSism in which words must be repeated precisely, or they are considered invalid (including their sacrament prayer) - and none of which actually come from reliable records about the real Jesus. Well, in this episode we dive in to see who actually promotes the worldview of "vain repetition" and "many words"!

Correction: Skyler said "Parley Pratt" when who he meant was Orson Pratt (3x; roughly 51:49, 1:17:10, 1:17:20)

Note: Moses warns against false prophets who lead people after other gods (Deut. 13.1-5); and Paul warns in Galatians that "even if we or an angel from heaven" preach a different gospel, let him/her be anathema, as well as warning against false apostles, men who preach "another Christ" - saying that "even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light." (Gal. 1.7, 2 Cor. 11.4,13-14) And of course, the apostle John warns against "false prophets" and commands we "test the spirits". (1 John 4.1-3)

LDS Sources:

JSH 1; JST Matthew 6-7

The New Testament Made Easier by David Ridges

D&C 76 (also here); 93 (also here); 130 (*85 yrs old - 1890);131, 132

D&C 8 (also here; see footnotes 5,7); D&C 82 (also here), D&C 88

2 Nephi 2, Alma 42.13,22,25; Abraham 3, Abraham 5

John A. Widtsoe (1872-1952) - A Rational Theology

James E. Talmage (1862-1933) - Jesus The Christ, The Articles of Faith

Jesus Christ Chosen as Savior (also here)

Achieving a Celestial Marriage (student manual)

Brigham Young: JD 10:5, JD 2:31 (also cited here), JD 7:2, JD 7:57

JD 10:7 (Daniel H. Wells)

God Is The Gardener (Hugh B. Brown)

The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent (Holland)

LDS Leaders like Russell Nelson will really emphasize that the LDS should only prayer to "Heavenly Father", and may even use the Lord's Prayer as a prooftext for this. Keep in mind, they see the Father and the Son as two distinct beings and persons - i.e. two distinct gods. (They also will minimize early Christians praying to Christ, even on His word in John 14.14, if it is acknowledged at all.) There is also controversy behind the anxiety that most Christians will not be aware of - and that is Mormons/LDS (some of whom are) praying to "Heavenly Mother" (see here and here). Notice also that Nelson speaks of prayer (like he talks about faith) - as a means of "power" and things similar - to "achieve our divine potential". (here, here, here)

Picture of seer stone (here and here)

Source on the temple, and polygamy.

Also note that the verse about "not casting pearls before swine" is often used by LDS to be secretive (even deceptive at times) with those who don't accept and/or understand the rituals, signs, tokens, veils, apron (and other attire) and key words of their sacred temple rituals (done for themselves, and vicariously for the dead.) Some will just be simply sensitive about talking about such things; others will even "lie for the lord" if they feel to when talking to some. (LDS scholars will sometimes cite gnostic texts as precedent for this. Christians have had a long history of responding to such groups and their worldviews, e.g. Irenaeus of Lyons.)

The Words of Joseph Smith, p. 247: "He showed that the power of the Melchisek P'd was to have the power of an 'endless lives.'"

President Heber C. Kimball stated: "You might as well deny Mormonism and turn away as to oppose the plurality of wives. Let the presidency of this Church, and the twelve apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose that doctrine, and the whole of them would be damned." (JD 5.203)

Hugh Nibley, in Old Testament and Related Studies, p. 49: "The Latter-day Saints are the only Bible-oriented people who have always been taught that things were happening long, long before Adam appeared on the scene. They have never appreciated just how revolutionary that idea is. It does away with creatio ex nihilo..."

• "Salvation" (rather, Exaltation/s) by Knowledge - as taught by Joseph Smith: all quotations are from the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (TPJS, edited by Joseph Fielding Smith):

"God has more power than all other beings, because he has greater knowledge." (p. 288); "The principle of knowledge is the principle of salvation...every one that does not obtain knowledge sufficient to be saved will be condemned. The principle of salvation is given us through the knowledge of Jesus Christ." (p.297) "Now for the secret and grand key...knowledge through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is the grand key that unlocks the glories and mysteries of the kingdom of heaven." (p.288) "Knowledge saves a man; and in the world of spirits no man can be exalted but by knowledge...If a man has knowledge, he can be saved." (p. 357) Also: "the keys of the kingdom...consist in the key of knowledge". (D&C 128.14)

• Salvation (rather, exaltation/s) via experience:

Jeffrey Holland, in a conference talk, states - in a context of irony (implying the opposite): "In fact, Lord, be careful to keep me from all the experiences that made thee Divine." (here; note also that in this same talk - he uses the term "omniscience" when speaking of God, showing this is not classically or biblically understood. They mean this quantitatively, not qualitatively.) There is precedent in this view as found in Brigham Young. (JD 8.31)

• Salvation (rather, exaltation/s) by obedience (or, "covenant path"):

Russell Nelson said in general conference: "Your commitment to follow the Savior by making covenants with him and then keeping those covenants will open the door to every spiritual blessing and privilege available to men, women, and children everywhere...we're speaking to you from a temple. The end for which each of us strives is to be endowed with power in a house of the Lord, sealed as families, faithful to covenants made in a temple that qualify us for the greatest gift of God - that of eternal life." (here; also see here) Also: 2 Ne 25:23, Moroni 10:32. It is common to hear LDS (general authorities, scholars, and laity alike) speak of "covenants and rituals necessary for salvation" (or something similar). This it integrally tied to LDS claims of being the only church with the (restored) priesthood keys necessary to properly perform these "covenants" and "rituals". (here) Joseph Smith taught that "to get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded." (TPJS, p. 332)

"Lightning out of heaven" (Terryl Givens)

The Kolob Theorem by Lynn Hilton

The First 2,000 Years by W. Cleon Skousen

The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil by H. Verlan Andersen

Eternal Man by Truman Madsen

Temple and Cosmos by Hugh Nibley (also here)

No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brodie

Mormonism and The Magic World View by D. Michael Quinn

• Fayette Lapham interview with Joseph Smith, Sr. (here) wherein he records "This Joseph Smith, Senior, we soon learned, from his own lips, was a firm believer in witchcraft and other supernatural things; and had brought up his family in the same belief." If a group such as those at the Interpreter would dispute this source, it is interesting to note that they are more than willing to use this same interview if it seems to help a point that they like. (e.g. their publication of an article by Don Bradley). To be clear, we do not think that the context for the BOM is actually ancient, whether among ancient Israel or ancient (white; though some cursed-brown) Native Americans who were supposedly simultaneously practicing the Law of Moses and baptizing in the name of Jesus, who had yet to be born in his humanity. The context, as we see it, was actually Joseph Smith's own time, and the civilization as his own vain imaginings, regardless of his sincerity. (here, here, here, here, here, here)

The Angel and the Sorcerer by Peter Levenda

The Mormon Jesus by John Turner

Conflict in the Quorum by Gary Bergera

The Mormon Hierarchy: Wealth and Corporate Power by D. Michael Quinn (also here)

Standing Apart: Mormon Historical Consciousness and the Concept of Apostasy (edited by Miranda Wilcox and John D. Young)

The Mormon Church On Trial: Transcript of the Reed Smoot Hearings edited by Michael Paulos (also here)

Mormonism - Shadow or Reality? by Jerald and Sandra Tanner (ch.22,24)

By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus: A New Look at the Joseph Smith Papyri by Charles Larson (also see here, here, here, here, here)

Joseph Smith said: "Paul saw the third heavens, and I more." (TPJS, p. 301) Elder Orson F. Whitney said later: "Both these men [Paul and Joseph Smith] had looked upon the face of Deity. Paul had been 'caught up to the third heaven' [2 Cor 12.2-5], Joseph to the 'seventh heaven' and there 'heard things unlawful to be uttered.' [D&C 76.115] Each was a divinely commissioned preacher of the gospel at the opening of a new dispensation." (Conference Report, October 1912, p. 70; see also his book Elias: An Epic of the Ages)

Compare President Wilford Woodruff and Elder Bruce R. McConkie on the question of eternal progression:

• "If there was a point where man in his progression could not proceed any further, the very idea would throw a gloom over every intelligent and reflecting mind. God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end. It is just so with us. We are in a probation, which is a school of experience." (Wilford Woodruff, JD 6.120)
• "Now may I suggest the list of heresies. Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths. This is false - utterly, totally, and completely. There is not one sliver of truth in it." (Bruce R. McConkie; Seven Deadly Heresies; Notice the condemnation of earlier men of higher church-rank then himself - including but not limited to Presidents/Prophets Brigham Young and Wilford Woodruff.)

The Search For God In Ancient Egypt by Jan Assman

Knowledge for the Afterlife: The Egyptian Amduat - A Quest for Immortality by Theodor Abt and Erik Hornung

Myth and Symbol In Ancient Egypt by R.T. Rundle Clark

The Gnostics by David Brakke (also here)

The Nag Hammadi Scriptures (edited by Marvin Meyer)

Resources:

Christianity and Liberalism by J. Gresham Machen

Matthew: A Mentor Commentary (2 vol.) by Knox Chamblin

When Grace Comes Alive: Living Through the Lord's Prayer by Terry Johnson

Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes by Kenneth Bailey

The Lord's Prayer by Wesley Hill

Who Is God? by Richard Bauckham

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi (or roughly - "the law of what is prayed is the law of what is believed" and vice versa; see here)

Jesus and His World by Craig Evans

American Gospel: Christ Alone

An Earnest Plea to Charismatics (Jason Wallace)

Justin Peters' Personal Plea to Kenneth Copeland

Justin Peters (here, here, here; also notice that Jesse Duplantis teaches a somewhat similar view of Isaiah 9 as Brigham Young - JD 10:5 and here)

The Bible Among the Myths by John Oswalt

Christless Christianity by Michael Horton (here and here)

Counterfeit Gods by Timothy Keller

The Trinity: An Introduction by Scott Swain

All That Is In God by James Dolezal (also here, here, here, here)

The Trinitarian Theology of Cornelius Van Til by Lane Tipton

Al Mohler sermon on John 9 (here)

Jesus's Sermon on the Mount and His Confrontation with the World: A Study of Matthew 5-10; The Sermon on the Mount: An Evangelical Exposition of Matthew 5-7 by D. A. Carson