In this interview, we welcome Jeff Strong to discuss his book Torn: Why People We Love Are Leaving the Church and What We Can Learn From Them. What is disaffiliation, and how does it differ from inactivity? Drawing on extensive study and experience – as well as qualitative and quantitative research, we seek to understand truly what is happening when it comes to LDS disaffiliation, and why. Do we know how many once active and faithful Latter-Day Saints have disaffiliated and transitioned away from the LDS Church? Taking us through this answer – and seeking to properly understand it against the contextual backdrop of religion in America more generally, we then seek to understand why they have left. Describing the four main reasons as “waves”, we learn about how issues of Lifestyle, Church History, Social Issues and Church Experience have ranked in how people have identified their reasons for leaving. Listen in as Jeff takes us through this and how and why there has been a shift in what people have prioritized when it comes to the “primary pathways” that have “shaped religious conversion and commitment”. Moreover, we discuss some of the cultural tensions that religious communities face today – as well as a discussion of how to evaluate what is and what should be essential shared doctrinal confession and moral behavior at the base of the community.

Book: Torn: Why People We Love Are Leaving the Church and What We Can Learn From Them

Website: tornbyjeffstrong.com

Other resources:

“LDS Church sees a record rise in converts, but why are fewer babies being added to the rolls?” by Mark Eddington (The Salt Lake Tribune)

The Next Mormons by Jana Riess

"Closing Remarks" by President Russell M. Nelson

The American Religious Landscape; The Nones; The Vanishing Church by Ryan Burge

Ligonier: The State of Theology Survey

Shaman and Sage by Michael Horton

Spiritual Marketplace by Wade Clark Roof

No Place for Truth; The Courage to Be Protestant by David Wells

The Westminster Confession of Faith, Ch. 25

OPC Book of Church Order

Christianity and Liberalism by J. Gresham Machen

The Apostolic Preaching of the Cross by Leon Morris

The Whole Christ by Sinclair Ferguson

In this episode, we welcome Dr. Shelby Fisher to discuss her book Tracy Y. Cannon: Tabernacle Organist and Pioneering Musician, 1879-1961. Who was Tracy Young Cannon, and why does he matter? A highly-trained organist and accomplished musician, Tracy Cannon had a huge impact on the musical landscape of the LDS Community – both in his work as an educator, as well as his work on the General Music Committee that helped shape the development of LDS Hymnody and the music environment of Sunday services. Having trained under many then-famous experts in organ, piano and composition, Tracy Cannon had a vision of a more refined and improved musical culture among his people. This was even showcased by his playing public recitals on the famous Tabernacle organ for decades, for the enjoyment of member and non-member alike. Listen in as Dr. Fisher takes us through a tour of the development of LDS hymnody, from the Latter-day Saints Psalmody (of 1889) through to the Latter-day Saint Hymns (of 1927) to the official Hymns: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints of 1948. Tracy Young Cannon wrote the music for several of the hymns for the LDS church and people – including hymns like “Come, Rejoice”, “Praise the Lord with Heart and Voice”, and “How Beautiful Thy Temples, Lord”. In addition, Tracy Cannon wrote The Organist’s Manual – which aided in the improvement of the musical quality of wards throughout the LDS Church, which then had the organ as their official instrument for Sunday services. This tour will include names well-known and some less known, including a major part played by President Heber J. Grant, both in the desire for theological clarity when it comes to worship music – as well as his founding of the General Music Committee in 1920.

Book: Tracy Y. Cannon: Tabernacle Organist and Pioneering Musician, 1879-1961

Hymns of which Tracy Y. Cannon wrote the tune, and two of which he also wrote the text:

- “Come, Rejoice” (also here)

- “God of Power, God of Right”

- “Praise the Lord with Heart and Voice” (also here)

- “The Lord Be With Us”

- “Come, Let Us Sing an Evening Hymn”

- “Jesus, Mighty King in Zion”

- “How Beautiful Thy Temples, Lord”

“Sing What We Believe” by Elder Heber J. Grant

“Farewell Address of Apostle Heber J. Grant”

Hymns: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (1948)

- “O My Father” (also here)

George Q. Cannon: Politician, Publisher, Apostle of Polygamy by Kenneth Cannon II

Eduardo Balderas: Father of Church Translation, 1907-1989 by Ignacio Garcia

A sample of Alberto Jonas, Alexandre Guilmant (and here), and Pietro Yon (and here)

The English Hymn: Its Development and Use by Louis Benson

In this episode, we welcome Dr. Daniel Stevens to discuss his book Songs of the Son: Reading the Psalms with the Author of Hebrews. Starting with the issue of how truly interconnected are the Old and New Testaments, we ask about how the Psalms should help us to see the Bible, in its diversity, as a unified whole. Is Christ Jesus objectively in the Psalms or is the New Testament often a collection of subjective reader-responses (with privilege)? What is the teaching of Hebrews on the matter, how does the author view the Psalms - and why does this matter when it comes to the claims of Christ? Listen in as we ask Dr. Stevens about “prosopological exegesis”, and how we can see that the one God who speaks in the Epistle includes and involves the personal voices of Father, Son and Holy Spirit – with even glimpses into the Father and the Son speaking to each other, and God the Holy Spirit speaking to the congregation. Why is the “divine conversation” between God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit key to the entire argument of the Epistle to the Hebrews, as a whole? Moreover, we hear this play out in how the Psalms point to Christ Jesus, and how the author of Hebrews helps us see greater clarity and resolution in the Psalms given the life, death, resurrection and exaltation of Jesus. The God-man himself is the source and substance of any hope fallen and sinful man has in entering the true Promised Land and being reconciled with the unique and sovereign God who created all things and upholds them in His power. Moreover, perhaps the pattern Hebrews models directly impacted the early Church’s Creeds, both in terms of doctrine and grammar.

Book: Songs of the Son: Reading the Psalms with the Author of Hebrews

Other resources by Dr. Stevens:

- The Theme of Promise in the Epistle to the Hebrews: A Promise Remains

- “More Than Red Letters: Jesus’s Teaching Across the New Testament” (TGC)

- “Is It Valid? A Case for the Repunctuation in Hebrews 9:17” (JBL)

Other resources:

Divine Discourse in the Epistle to the Hebrews by Madison Pierce

The Paradox of Sonship: Christology in the Epistle to the Hebrews by R.B. Jamieson

The Royal Priest: Psalm 110 in Biblical Theology by Matthew Emadi

God, Grace, and Righteousness in Wisdom of Solomon and Paul’s Letter to the Romans: Texts in Conversation by Jonathan Linebaugh

Uncovering the Theme of Revelation in Romans 1:16-3:26 by Marcus Mininger

“King Follett Discourse”; “The Sermon in the Grove” by President-Prophet Joseph Smith

- See also D&C 93, 132; JST John 1; Abraham 3, 4

“Be Ye Therefore Perfect” by LDS President-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball

Wrestling the Angel; The God Who Weeps by Terryl Givens

In this episode, we welcome Dr. Matt O’Reilly to discuss his book Free To Be Holy: A Biblical Theology of Sanctification. What is biblical holiness – and how does biblical holiness relate to the Gospel of Grace? What does it mean to “be holy” as God is holy, and what is the role of God, the Holy Spirit in the sanctification of the believer? From the Garden of Eden to Isaiah 6, and from the “Holiness Code” of Leviticus to our Savior’s Sermon on the Mount, Dr. O’Reilly argues that holiness is an “integrative doctrine” - aiding the attentive reader to understand one of the deep threads of Bible, from our creation in the image of God to being conformed to the image of Christ. How do we properly understand holiness and sanctification without compromising the Gospel of Grace? Does man have a “sin nature”? And when Christ calls us to “be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” – how do we properly understand the text, in context? Listen in as Dr. O’Reilly helps deepen our understanding of God, man, sin, nature – and the entire purpose God has for those who are made in his image and likeness.

Book: Free To Be Holy: A Biblical Theology of Sanctification

Also, by Dr. O’Reilly:

Reconstructing Methodism: Crucial Issues Facing the Global Methodist Church

Paul and the Resurrected Body: Social Identity and Ethical Practice

Other resources:

Christianity and Liberalism by J. Gresham Machen

Against God and Nature: The Doctrine of Sin by Thomas McCall

Desiring the Kingdom; Imagining the Kingdom by James K. A. Smith

Paul and the Person: Reframing Paul’s Anthropology by Susan Grove Eastman

The Holiness of God by R.C. Sproul

Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Harold B. Lee

The Miracle of Forgiveness by President Spencer W. Kimball (also here)

“Call to the Holy Apostleship” by President (then-Elder) Russell M. Nelson

1 Ne. 3:7; D&C 82:7; 130:20-21

Scourby: Romans; Isaiah; Matthew

In this episode, we welcome Dr. Paul Gutacker to discuss his book The Old Faith in a New Nation: American Protestants and the Christian Past. Given a construct of “biblicism” - the standard narrative of American evangelicalism often assumes or involves the ahistoric and anti-traditional. Yet, as Dr. Gutacker both argues and writes: “American Protestants never read, or argued over, the Bible alone.” What was the place, role, and priority of the past in the polemics of early American history? Indeed, how does the key role that history played in the arguments all throughout the period of 1780-1864 contribute to a proper understanding of the “democratization of American Christianity”? What were the sources so often studied and cited in debates among all the Christian denominations – as well as their historiographical tendencies and patterns of analysis? From many of the Founding Fathers to Baptist minister James P. Boyce and the founding of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary – to even Restorationism, or the “Christian movement” - the arguments among Christians are saturated with appeals to history, and past Christian thinkers. Indeed, “religious memory contributed to denominational competition”. Moreover, far from “biblicism” alone leading to an inevitable impasse during the crisis surrounding the Civil War, tradition was no more able to settle the debates regarding slavery and even the place of the Church, either. Listen in as we hear Dr. Gutacker take us into this, and even more regarding questions of the Great Tradition, the place of history, and even how the blind spots of the past may help us be more sensitive to the blind spots of the present.

Book: The Old Faith in a New Nation: American Protestants and the Christian Past

Also check out: Brazos Fellows

The Democratization of American Christianity by Nathan O. Hatch

The Civil War as a Theological Crisis by Mark Noll

How To Think by Alan Jacobs

Dominion by Tom Holland

Evangelicals and Tradition by D. H. Williams

The Spirit of Early Christian Thought; Liberty in the Things of God by Robert Louis Wilken

“General History of the Baptist Denomination” by David Benedict

In this episode, we welcome back and finish our interview with Bradley Campbell of God Loves Mormons (GLM) and the Mormonism Research Ministry (MRM). We ask Bradley about five more topics that indicate change over time in LDS teaching, what these changes indicate about the “official” teachings of the LDS church, and why it matters. Moreover, we discuss Joseph Smith’s King Follett Discourse, his most famous and important sermon – and ask whether it is Mormon doctrine. Indeed, we end with a discussion about the difficulty of determining “official doctrine” in the LDS theological system – and why it matters, especially from a Christian perspective.

God Loves Mormons (GLM; YouTube)

Mormonism Research Ministry (MRM)

Utah Christian Research Center (also here)

Videos:

- “5 More Things the LDS Church No Longer Teaches”

- “This One Sermon Might Prove That Joseph Smith was a Fraud”

- “Why do Christians seem to Misrepresent Mormonism?”

- “The LDS Church denied this for 100 years...until now”

Please check out our interview with Dr. Loren Pankratz about Blake Ostler’s revisionism about the King Follett Discourse.

Hear our previous interviews with Bradley here:

- LDS Theology: Past and Present (Part 1/2)

- LDS Theology: Past and Present (Part 2/2)

- On the LDS Presiding Patriarch

- Interviews Dr. Matthew Emadi about the Temple

In this episode, we welcome back and begin our interview with Bradley Campbell of God Loves Mormons (GLM) and the Mormonism Research Ministry (MRM). We ask Bradley about five more topics that indicate change over time in LDS teaching, what these changes indicate about the “official” teachings of the LDS church, and why it matters. Moreover, we discuss Joseph Smith’s King Follett Discourse, his most famous and important sermon – and ask whether it is Mormon doctrine. Indeed, we end with a discussion about the difficulty of determining “official doctrine” in the LDS theological system – and why it matters, especially from a Christian perspective.

God Loves Mormons (GLM; YouTube)

Mormonism Research Ministry (MRM)

Utah Christian Research Center (also here)

Videos:

- “5 More Things the LDS Church No Longer Teaches”

- “This One Sermon Might Prove That Joseph Smith was a Fraud”

- “Why do Christians seem to Misrepresent Mormonism?”

- “The LDS Church denied this for 100 years...until now”

Please check out our interview with Dr. Loren Pankratz about Blake Ostler’s revisionism about the King Follett Discourse.

Hear our previous interviews with Bradley here:

- LDS Theology: Past and Present (Part 1/2)

- LDS Theology: Past and Present (Part 2/2)

- On the LDS Presiding Patriarch

- Interviews Dr. Matthew Emadi about the Temple

In this episode, we welcome Tanner Talbot to discuss his LDS mission experience as documented in his article “The Arizona Tucson Mission Disaster: An LDS Church Cover Up?”. We begin with his upbringing in the LDS Church, as well as some of the cultural pressures and dynamics which are key to understanding the place and importance of serving an honorable full-time mission in and for the LDS church. We hear about some of the expectations and impressions communicated by the leadership and laity of the LDS church about what a mission experience will be – and then spend time hearing about what Tanner’s experience, on the ground, actually was. With dynamics such as perfect obedience leading to increased spirituality and church-growth-results being a constant message to the missionaries, we hear about what the moral state, and mental state, of many of these missionaries actually was – within what turned out to be something of a unique mission where the LDS church hid many who should not (for themselves, and for others) have been on such a mission. We hear of the mental and emotional turmoil (in addition to even physical danger) Tanner suffered as a result of what was, at best, negligence on the part of the LDS leadership – and what this did to Tanner, spiritually. We then turn to how Tanner eventually faced the full impact of his LDS mission – and how he was eventualy freed by the (Christian) Gospel and the Christ Jesus of the Bible.

Article:“The Arizona Tucson Mission Disaster: An LDS Church Cover Up?”

Also check out: A Call for Reform

- “The Great Apostasy Lie: A 2,000 Year Timeline of Saved By Faith Alone”

Other resources:

Recent LDS Statement on Translations

Check out the ESV Study Bible (also here)

Scribes and Scriptures by John Meade and Peter Gurry

Core Christianity by Michael Horton

Christianity and Liberalism by J. Gresham Mache

The Freedom of a Christian; The Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther

Institutes of the Christian Religion; “Letter to Cardinal Sadoleto” by John Calvin

An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins; Restoring Christ: Leaving Mormon Jesus for Jesus of the Gospels by Grant Palmer

Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith by Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery

Publication of pictures of Seer Stone: here and here

“Bear Up Their Burdens with Ease” by Elder David Bednar

“The Church Impotent: The History and Theology of Dispensationalism” (Ancient Paths TV)

In this episode, Casey and Skyler discuss and critique the official 2026 LDS Come, Follow Me manual’s coverage of Exodus.

Please read (and even listen) to Exodus (ESV, KJV)

Come, Follow Me – Home and Church (Old Testament Manual)

Old Testament Seminary Teacher Manual

“Exceeding Great and Precious Promises” by Elder David A. Bednar

“The Reflection in the Water” by Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf

Early Mormonism and the Magic World View by D. Michael Quinn

“This Is My Doctrine”: The Development of Mormon Theology by Charles Harrell

Wrestling the Angel by Terryl Givens

Joseph Smith As Scientist; A Rational Theology by Elder John A. Widtsoe

The Pentateuch: Life in the Presence of God by J. Daniel Hays

An Introduction to the Old Testament by Edward J. Young

Biblical Theology by Geerhardus Vos

Who Is God? by Richard Bauckham

The Meaning of the Pentateuch by John Sailhamer

The Bible Among the Myths by John Oswalt

Israel in Egypt; Ancient Israel in Sinai; “’These Things Happened’: Why a Historical Exodus Is Essential for Theology” by James K. Hoffmeier

Ancient Egypt in the Old Testament; Against the Gods by John Currid

Thanksgiving by David Pao

The Temple and the Church’s Mission by G.K. Beale

Westminster Shorter Catechism

The Heidelberg Catechism: A Historical, Theological and Pastoral Commentary by R. Scott Clark

God, Language and Scripture by Moises Silva

The Mystery of the Trinity by Vern Poythress

Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God; Knowing God by J. I. Packer

In this episode, we welcome back Pastor Ed Romine to discuss his book The Booming Baritone Bell of England, specifically his third chapter: “The Christ-Centered Hermeneut: A Christ-Centered Hermeneutical Foundation for Spurgeon’s Evangelism”. What is Hermeneutics, and how should the methodological principles of interpretation be tuned to the type of text we are engaging with? Given Spurgeon’s view of the Bible, how does (and does not) that mean he interprets the Bible like any other book? What did Spurgeon mean by “spiritualizing” the text, and how did he think that should be limited when both interpreting and preaching the text of Scripture? Moreover, Ed gives us a sample of a worship service at The Metropolitan Tabernacle and how the Word of God was at the center. He also helps us understand the distinction between expositions and sermons, and gives us some insight and samples into how these played out for those attending. Ed writes, “For Spurgeon, all of the Bible speaks of Christ Jesus”. Listen in and hear how that was the case, and why that matters for today.

Book: The Booming Baritone Bell of England

Check out: First Baptist Church of Provo

Past interview with Dr. Romine about Spurgeon: Part One, Part Two

Other resources:

Tethered to the Cross by Thomas Breimaier

Spurgeon the Pastor by Geoffrey Chang

Interpreting Scripture with the Great Tradition; Contemplating God with the Great Tradition by Craig Carter