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Original title: Keys to the Kingdom, Priesthood
In this episode, Brendon and Skyler discuss the sixteenth lesson in the LDS Come, Follow Me sunday school manual. This week (Apr. 10-16) is titled "Thou Art the Christ", and covers Matthew 15-17 and Mark 7-9.
We invite you to worship with us on any Sunday - either at First Baptist Church of Provo or Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna. We welcome visitors!
Note 1: in the official LDS church e-mail for this Holy Week (2023) literally has as the subject line - "Rise above your challenges". (Beware: "Moralistic Therapeutic Deism")
Note 2: Notice - the official position of the LDS church in the manual is that "this rock" (v. 18) is - "the bedrock of revelation". Yet, they don't even mention (even once) the next part of the same verse (also v. 18) which states that "the gates of hades will not prevail against" the church due to their claims of the Great Apostasy - i.e. the early church completely disappearing (or at least, the authority of the Christian church completely disappearing), only to then be restored to the earth through the prophet, Joseph Smith.
Yet, even on their own terms - if "the rock" (as they interpret it) failed the first time, why should it be a model for the latter-day church? Is it just that their latter-day prophets are just that much more faithful than Peter or Paul? Joseph Smith claimed just this kind of thing when he claimed that: "I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam...Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet..." (HC 6:408; here)
This is to not even mention the fact that the LDS position, even on their own terms, must mean that either Jesus was wrong, or failed to mention that the gates of hades would succeed - but only for 1,500-1,800 years or so (depending on where one would date the apostasy), which would seem to entail Jesus being de facto wrong, anyway. If there was ever a place for Jesus to warn of a great apostasy, and Matthew to document it - this would indeed be the passage.
Note 3: The Canons of the Council of Orange (AD 529) - Canon 3 states: "If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, 'I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me' (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1)." (here) Note that these doctrinal statements received even official approval from pope Boniface II in 531.
LDS Sources:
Hear Him videos
Where Are the Keys and Authority of the Priesthood? (Gary Stevensen)
The Holy Temple (Boyd Packer)
Gospel Principles (quoted the 2009 ed.); D&C 20; D&C 107
Matthew 16.13-18; Matthew 16.18-19, 17.1-7 (Seminary Manual)
D&C 110; D&C 130; D&C 131; D&C 132 (original context: polygamy)
Jesus the Christ; The Great Apostasy by James Talmage
Transfiguration; JST Mark 9
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 158, 310, 312, 335-338
New Testament Made Easier by David Ridges
Why did Moses, Elias, and Elijah appear in the Kirtland Temple? (Notice the footnotes on Elias)
D&C 6; D&C 8(also here; see footnotes 5,7); D&C 9
Note 3: The Sunday School manual asks: "What do you think Peter or Alma or Oliver Cowdery might have said if someone asked them how they know the gospel is true?" Historian D. Michael Quinn points out the context of D&C 6, 8, and 9 (among other places) is found in divining rods and the magic worldview with indeed, the "rod of aaron" of current wording historically referring to a divining rod. Quinn also notes a time when Oliver Cowdery was asked about the "treasure" (the golden plates) and "[a]s part of his answer, Cowdery wrote that one evidence of the truthfulness of the angel's visit in 1823 was that 'the vision was renewed twice before morning,' a reference to the importance of thrice-repeated dreams in folk magic's treasure-quest." (Mormonism and the Magic World View, pp. 141, 259) Is this truly comparable to the context of Peter's confession?
Note 4: "The Book of Mormon says nothing regarding the restoration of priesthood authority or its importance in the latter-day work of the Lord. The first recorded reference to restorations of their respective priesthoods by John the Baptist and by Peter, James, and John wasn't until 1834, some five years after these events reportedly occurred. The original sixty-five sections of the Doctrine and Covenants published as the Book of Commandments in 1833 make no mention at all of Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods, much less their restoration. Section 13, which references 'the priesthood of Aaron,' wasn't recorded until Joseph Smith wrote his history in 1838 (JS-H 1:69). The references to John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John in section 27 of the current Doctrine and Covenants were added in 1835. David Whitmer and William E. McLellin, who at the time were close associates of the Prophet, later alleged that they knew nothing of any priesthood restoration taking place. Their understanding was that Joseph and Oliver's authority to ordain each other, and others, to ministerial office (e.g., elder, priest, teacher) was received by commandment, and not by angelic administration. Initially, these offices had no connection to Aaronic or Melchizedek priesthoods..." ("This Is My Doctrine": The Development of Mormon Theology by Charles Harrell; also here and here)
Power from on High: The Development of Mormon Priesthood by Gregory Prince
Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? by Jerald and Sandra Tanner (also here)
The Mound Builder Myth: Fake History and the Hunt for a "Lost White Race" by Jason Colavito
Temples Made With Hands? ; The Vanishing Lamanites (Jason Wallace)
Approaching the Book of Mormon (Bill McKeever)
The Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922
The Nag Hammadi Scriptures (ed. Marvin Meyer); specifically, The Testimony of Truth. Scholar Birger Pearson, describing one of the key messages of this gnostic text writes: "True Christianity consists in renunciation of the world and in gnosis, i.e. self-knowledge as divine knowledge." The "author's polemics" were "obviously the ecclesiastical Church".
Note 5: The point is not that every particular of Gnosticism has a parallel in Mormonism - but rather, a point about category. In terms of epistemology, religious emphasis and priority, history and eschatology, and even hermeneutics - Mormonism has been in a category much more akin to Gnosticism than to that of Christianity. Anyone who has attended an LDS testimony meeting will immediately see the emphasis on "knowing" truth via immediate spiritual experience. One would think it is fair to build an analysis of a religion based on the very patterns emphasized in/through the rhetoric of the membership to the membership, at least monthly.
Resources:
Christianity and Liberalism; The Person of Jesus; and What is Faith? by J. Gresham Machen
Destroyer of the Gods by Larry Hurtado (also here)
Dominion by Tom Holland
Christless Christianity by Michael Horton (also here, here, here, and here)
The Gospel of Matthew (NICNT); Matthew: Evangelist and Teacher by R.T. France
Matthew (The Expositor's Bible Commentary) by D. A. Carson
The Justification Reader by Thomas Oden
Luther's Theology of the Cross by Alister McGrath
Christianity at the Crossroads; The Question of Canon; Canon Revisited by Michael J. Kruger (also here and here)
The Battle for the Keys by Justin Bass
The Book of Revelation (NIGTC); The Temple and the Church's Mission by G. K. Beale
Temple of Presence by Andrea Robinson
The Infallibility of the Church by George Salmon
Does the NT teach that Peter was the first pope? (Debate, James White)
Christianity and Classical Culture by Jaroslav Pelikan
The Origins of the Liturgical Year by Thomas Talley
Note 6: On the Transfiguration, R.T. France points out: "the reappearance of Moses in this scene further links the two mountain experiences [Exod. 24.9-18 and this one in Matt. 17.1-8], while the echo of Deut. 18.15-19 in v. 5 identifies Jesus as a new Moses is a factor in Matthew's account, though it is important to note that whereas at Sinai Moses was the recipient of revelation, here Jesus is its subject, and it is the disciples rather than Jesus who are in the position of Moses, seeing the heavenly glory and hearing the voice of God..."
"The visual 'transformation' is not so much a physical alteration as an added dimension of glory; it is the same Jesus, but now with an awesome brightness 'like the sun' and 'like light'. Or, one might better say, with the dullness of earthly conditions temporarily stripped away, so that the true nature of God's 'beloved Son' (v. 5) can for once be seen." In footnote 26: "It should also be noted that the account of Moses' face shining relates to his coming down from the mountain, whereas Jesus shone on the mountain but is not said to be visibly different when coming down from it."..."Moses shone for a time with a reflection of the divine glory he had seen; Jesus shone with his own heavenly glory. Moses' radiance was derivative, Jesus' essential." (pp. 644-645, 647)
Original title: Keys to the Kingdom, Priesthood
In this episode, Brendon and Skyler discuss the sixteenth lesson in the LDS Come, Follow Me sunday school manual. This week (Apr. 10-16) is titled "Thou Art the Christ", and covers Matthew 15-17 and Mark 7-9.
We invite you to worship with us on any Sunday - either at First Baptist Church of Provo or Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna. We welcome visitors!
Note 1: in the official LDS church e-mail for this Holy Week (2023) literally has as the subject line - "Rise above your challenges". (Beware: "Moralistic Therapeutic Deism")
Note 2: Notice - the official position of the LDS church in the manual is that "this rock" (v. 18) is - "the bedrock of revelation". Yet, they don't even mention (even once) the next part of the same verse (also v. 18) which states that "the gates of hades will not prevail against" the church due to their claims of the Great Apostasy - i.e. the early church completely disappearing (or at least, the authority of the Christian church completely disappearing), only to then be restored to the earth through the prophet, Joseph Smith.
Yet, even on their own terms - if "the rock" (as they interpret it) failed the first time, why should it be a model for the latter-day church? Is it just that their latter-day prophets are just that much more faithful than Peter or Paul? Joseph Smith claimed just this kind of thing when he claimed that: "I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam...Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet..." (HC 6:408; here)
This is to not even mention the fact that the LDS position, even on their own terms, must mean that either Jesus was wrong, or failed to mention that the gates of hades would succeed - but only for 1,500-1,800 years or so (depending on where one would date the apostasy), which would seem to entail Jesus being de facto wrong, anyway. If there was ever a place for Jesus to warn of a great apostasy, and Matthew to document it - this would indeed be the passage.
Note 3: The Canons of the Council of Orange (AD 529) - Canon 3 states: "If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, 'I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me' (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1)." (here) Note that these doctrinal statements received even official approval from pope Boniface II in 531.
LDS Sources:
Hear Him videos
Where Are the Keys and Authority of the Priesthood? (Gary Stevensen)
The Holy Temple (Boyd Packer)
Gospel Principles (quoted the 2009 ed.); D&C 20; D&C 107
Matthew 16.13-18; Matthew 16.18-19, 17.1-7 (Seminary Manual)
D&C 110; D&C 130; D&C 131; D&C 132 (original context: polygamy)
Jesus the Christ; The Great Apostasy by James Talmage
Transfiguration; JST Mark 9
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 158, 310, 312, 335-338
New Testament Made Easier by David Ridges
Why did Moses, Elias, and Elijah appear in the Kirtland Temple? (Notice the footnotes on Elias)
D&C 6; D&C 8(also here; see footnotes 5,7); D&C 9
Note 3: The Sunday School manual asks: "What do you think Peter or Alma or Oliver Cowdery might have said if someone asked them how they know the gospel is true?" Historian D. Michael Quinn points out the context of D&C 6, 8, and 9 (among other places) is found in divining rods and the magic worldview with indeed, the "rod of aaron" of current wording historically referring to a divining rod. Quinn also notes a time when Oliver Cowdery was asked about the "treasure" (the golden plates) and "[a]s part of his answer, Cowdery wrote that one evidence of the truthfulness of the angel's visit in 1823 was that 'the vision was renewed twice before morning,' a reference to the importance of thrice-repeated dreams in folk magic's treasure-quest." (Mormonism and the Magic World View, pp. 141, 259) Is this truly comparable to the context of Peter's confession?
Note 4: "The Book of Mormon says nothing regarding the restoration of priesthood authority or its importance in the latter-day work of the Lord. The first recorded reference to restorations of their respective priesthoods by John the Baptist and by Peter, James, and John wasn't until 1834, some five years after these events reportedly occurred. The original sixty-five sections of the Doctrine and Covenants published as the Book of Commandments in 1833 make no mention at all of Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods, much less their restoration. Section 13, which references 'the priesthood of Aaron,' wasn't recorded until Joseph Smith wrote his history in 1838 (JS-H 1:69). The references to John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John in section 27 of the current Doctrine and Covenants were added in 1835. David Whitmer and William E. McLellin, who at the time were close associates of the Prophet, later alleged that they knew nothing of any priesthood restoration taking place. Their understanding was that Joseph and Oliver's authority to ordain each other, and others, to ministerial office (e.g., elder, priest, teacher) was received by commandment, and not by angelic administration. Initially, these offices had no connection to Aaronic or Melchizedek priesthoods..." ("This Is My Doctrine": The Development of Mormon Theology by Charles Harrell; also here and here)
Power from on High: The Development of Mormon Priesthood by Gregory Prince
Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? by Jerald and Sandra Tanner (also here)
The Mound Builder Myth: Fake History and the Hunt for a "Lost White Race" by Jason Colavito
Temples Made With Hands? ; The Vanishing Lamanites (Jason Wallace)
Approaching the Book of Mormon (Bill McKeever)
The Secret Mormon Meetings of 1922
The Nag Hammadi Scriptures (ed. Marvin Meyer); specifically, The Testimony of Truth. Scholar Birger Pearson, describing one of the key messages of this gnostic text writes: "True Christianity consists in renunciation of the world and in gnosis, i.e. self-knowledge as divine knowledge." The "author's polemics" were "obviously the ecclesiastical Church".
Note 5: The point is not that every particular of Gnosticism has a parallel in Mormonism - but rather, a point about category. In terms of epistemology, religious emphasis and priority, history and eschatology, and even hermeneutics - Mormonism has been in a category much more akin to Gnosticism than to that of Christianity. Anyone who has attended an LDS testimony meeting will immediately see the emphasis on "knowing" truth via immediate spiritual experience. One would think it is fair to build an analysis of a religion based on the very patterns emphasized in/through the rhetoric of the membership to the membership, at least monthly.
Resources:
Christianity and Liberalism; The Person of Jesus; and What is Faith? by J. Gresham Machen
Destroyer of the Gods by Larry Hurtado (also here)
Dominion by Tom Holland
Christless Christianity by Michael Horton (also here, here, here, and here)
The Gospel of Matthew (NICNT); Matthew: Evangelist and Teacher by R.T. France
Matthew (The Expositor's Bible Commentary) by D. A. Carson
The Justification Reader by Thomas Oden
Luther's Theology of the Cross by Alister McGrath
Christianity at the Crossroads; The Question of Canon; Canon Revisited by Michael J. Kruger (also here and here)
The Battle for the Keys by Justin Bass
The Book of Revelation (NIGTC); The Temple and the Church's Mission by G. K. Beale
Temple of Presence by Andrea Robinson
The Infallibility of the Church by George Salmon
Does the NT teach that Peter was the first pope? (Debate, James White)
Christianity and Classical Culture by Jaroslav Pelikan
The Origins of the Liturgical Year by Thomas Talley
Note 6: On the Transfiguration, R.T. France points out: "the reappearance of Moses in this scene further links the two mountain experiences [Exod. 24.9-18 and this one in Matt. 17.1-8], while the echo of Deut. 18.15-19 in v. 5 identifies Jesus as a new Moses is a factor in Matthew's account, though it is important to note that whereas at Sinai Moses was the recipient of revelation, here Jesus is its subject, and it is the disciples rather than Jesus who are in the position of Moses, seeing the heavenly glory and hearing the voice of God..."
"The visual 'transformation' is not so much a physical alteration as an added dimension of glory; it is the same Jesus, but now with an awesome brightness 'like the sun' and 'like light'. Or, one might better say, with the dullness of earthly conditions temporarily stripped away, so that the true nature of God's 'beloved Son' (v. 5) can for once be seen." In footnote 26: "It should also be noted that the account of Moses' face shining relates to his coming down from the mountain, whereas Jesus shone on the mountain but is not said to be visibly different when coming down from it."..."Moses shone for a time with a reflection of the divine glory he had seen; Jesus shone with his own heavenly glory. Moses' radiance was derivative, Jesus' essential." (pp. 644-645, 647)