Stop Talking to the Rider
Julie Dirksen on behavior change, the elephant in the room, and why knowing is never enough

From Jeanne
If you have ever stood in front of a group, delivered a session you were genuinely proud of, and then watched nothing change two weeks later — this episode is for you. That is exactly what happened to me early in my career. I ran a two-hour training that had people practically running out the door to sell a new product. Two weeks later: zero. Turns out nobody got a bonus for selling it. I had never even thought to ask that question.

Julie Dirksen has spent more than many years asking exactly that question. She is the author of Design for How People Learn, an industry classic, and Talk to the Elephant, which picks up precisely where the first book left off: what do you do when people know what to do, and they are still not doing it? I have distributed that book widely. It is that good.

We recorded this conversation in English, and I am so glad we did. Julie is sharp, warm, and she has a way of making behavioral science feel immediately useful. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

About Julie Dirksen 
Julie Dirksen holds a master’s degree in Instructional Systems Technology from Indiana University. She has spent decades helping organizations design learning that actually changes behavior, and has been recognized as a Guild Master by the e-Learning Guild. Her books are considered essential reading in the field of learning and development.

What this episode covers 

•  The question Julie could not stop thinking about after her first book: what happens when people know what to do, but they are still not doing it?
• The Elephant and Rider metaphor, originally from Jonathan Haidt, and why most learning experiences only talk to the Rider while the Elephant gets bored and checks Instagram. 
• The two factors Julie has never seen absent in a challenging behavior change problem: competing priorities and delayed or absent feedback. 
• The change ladder: a practical framework for diagnosing where people actually are before jumping to solutions. From not knowing, to knowing but not convinced, to convinced but stuck, to needing practical support, to building and maintaining a habit. 
• Why adding more information louder and more emphatically is almost never the answer. 
• How to redirect the conversation when colleagues or clients start blaming learners for not learning. 
• Action planning versus positive visualization: why picturing yourself being successful is far less effective than thinking through everything that might stop you.
• AI and defaults: why people are much better at generating content than at critically checking it, and what that means for how we use these tools. 
• A preview of Julie’s new book, Designed for How People Build Skills, out in the fall.

Julie’s two things to do tomorrow 
Ask what everything in the system is currently doing to either promote or prevent the behavior you want. How many of those things can training actually address?

Look at the feedback mechanisms. What feedback are people getting on the behavior right now? How can you improve it?

Books mentioned
Talk to the Elephant — Julie Dirksen
Design for How People Learn — Julie Dirksen
The Happiness Hypothesis — Jonathan Haidt
Thinking, Fast and Slow — Daniel Kahneman 

Find Julie Dirksen at julieDirksen.com and on LinkedIn. Listen to the full episode via No More Boring Learning.