No More Boring Learning by Brain Bakery

Stop Talking to the Rider
Julie Dirksen on behavior change, the elephant in the room, and why knowing is never enough

From Jeanne
If you have ever stood in front of a group, delivered a session you were genuinely proud of, and then watched nothing change two weeks later — this episode is for you. That is exactly what happened to me early in my career. I ran a two-hour training that had people practically running out the door to sell a new product. Two weeks later: zero. Turns out nobody got a bonus for selling it. I had never even thought to ask that question.

Julie Dirksen has spent more than many years asking exactly that question. She is the author of Design for How People Learn, an industry classic, and Talk to the Elephant, which picks up precisely where the first book left off: what do you do when people know what to do, and they are still not doing it? I have distributed that book widely. It is that good.

We recorded this conversation in English, and I am so glad we did. Julie is sharp, warm, and she has a way of making behavioral science feel immediately useful. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

About Julie Dirksen 
Julie Dirksen holds a master’s degree in Instructional Systems Technology from Indiana University. She has spent decades helping organizations design learning that actually changes behavior, and has been recognized as a Guild Master by the e-Learning Guild. Her books are considered essential reading in the field of learning and development.

What this episode covers 

•  The question Julie could not stop thinking about after her first book: what happens when people know what to do, but they are still not doing it?
• The Elephant and Rider metaphor, originally from Jonathan Haidt, and why most learning experiences only talk to the Rider while the Elephant gets bored and checks Instagram. 
• The two factors Julie has never seen absent in a challenging behavior change problem: competing priorities and delayed or absent feedback. 
• The change ladder: a practical framework for diagnosing where people actually are before jumping to solutions. From not knowing, to knowing but not convinced, to convinced but stuck, to needing practical support, to building and maintaining a habit. 
• Why adding more information louder and more emphatically is almost never the answer. 
• How to redirect the conversation when colleagues or clients start blaming learners for not learning. 
• Action planning versus positive visualization: why picturing yourself being successful is far less effective than thinking through everything that might stop you.
• AI and defaults: why people are much better at generating content than at critically checking it, and what that means for how we use these tools. 
• A preview of Julie’s new book, Designed for How People Build Skills, out in the fall.

Julie’s two things to do tomorrow 
Ask what everything in the system is currently doing to either promote or prevent the behavior you want. How many of those things can training actually address?

Look at the feedback mechanisms. What feedback are people getting on the behavior right now? How can you improve it?

Books mentioned
Talk to the Elephant — Julie Dirksen
Design for How People Learn — Julie Dirksen
The Happiness Hypothesis — Jonathan Haidt
Thinking, Fast and Slow — Daniel Kahneman 

Find Julie Dirksen at julieDirksen.com and on LinkedIn. Listen to the full episode via No More Boring Learning.

Dr. Clark Quinn on 40 Years of Learning Science

In this episode, I talk with Dr. Clark Quinn, one of the most influential thinkers in our field. With over 40 years of experience in learning science, seven books to his name, and as the first recipient of the eLearning Guild's Guild Master Award, Clark shares his sharp insights on what's going wrong in L&D and how we can do better.

In this episode we discuss:

• Why we jump to solutions too quickly without first considering what technology can actually offer
• The danger of "chocolate covered broccoli" in learning experience design
• Why there's only a 0.09 correlation between whether people like a training and whether it actually has impact
• The persistent misconceptions that just won't die: learning styles, the attention span of a goldfish, and the myth that images are 10,000 times better than text
• Generative AI: why it creates answers that sound like good answers, but aren't necessarily
• Why you don't just need a human in the loop, but an expert in the loop

About Dr. Clark Quinn: Clark Quinn has a PhD in cognitive psychology and was a pioneer in designing educational games. He co-authored the Serious eLearning Manifesto and wrote, among others, "Millennials, Goldfish, and Other Training Misconceptions."

Mentioned in this episode:

• Millennials, Goldfish, and Other Training Misconceptions (Clark Quinn)
• Make It Meaningful (Clark Quinn)
• Learning Science for Instructional Designers (Clark Quinn)
• Think Like a Marketer, Train Like an L&D Pro (Bianca Bauman & Mike Taylor)
• The Accidental Instructional Designer (Cammy Bean)

In this podcast, Jeanne and Dr. Britt Andreatta take you into the world of neuroscience and how it transforms our understanding of learning and leadership. They discuss how our brains get bored quickly and emphasize the importance of short, interactive learning blocks. Meaning-making is crucial; participants need to see how the skills they learn practically help them. Making mistakes is allowed, provided there is psychological safety, so teams can grow and learn from their experiences. With her insights, Britt shows how we can make learning irresistible and create meaningful experiences.

Connect with Britt via LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/brittandreatta
https://www.brittandreatta.com
https://brainawaretraining.com

Check the blog about this podcast:
https://www.brainbakery.com/brainsnacks-en/wired-to-grow-how-neuroscience-changes-the-way-we-learn-and-lead-with-dr-britt-andreatta

Still hungry?
Nom nom… have a nibble on our Brain Snacks
https://www.brainbakery.com/brainsnacks

In this episode of "No More Boring Learning," hosts Ravi and Jeanne delve into the fascinating world of cognitive dissonance. As they unpack this psychological phenomenon, they explore how our brains handle conflicting beliefs and the challenges it presents in personal growth and leadership. They explain how cognitive dissonance can prevent change, using everyday examples and insights into human behavior to illustrate the point. This discussion is particularly invaluable for anyone in leadership or training roles, offering strategies to navigate and address cognitive dissonance effectively. 

Tune in to gain a deeper understanding of why we resist change and how to foster more productive and insightful learning environments.

Whether you're an educator, a lifelong learner, or simply curious about  human behaviour, this episode promises to expand your horizons and ignite your passion for personal development.

Check the blog about this podcast:
https://www.brainbakery.com/brainsnacks-en/wrestling-with-your-brain-understanding-cognitive-dissonance-in-leadership-and-learning

Still hungry?
Nom nom… have a nibble on our Brain Snacks
https://www.brainbakery.com/brainsnacks

Imagine if every piece of advice you've ever received came with a "best before" date or a truthfulness rating. 🌟 From the gems that push you to greatness to the ones that make you wonder if you're secretly being pranked, navigating advice can feel like trying to find a needle in a haystack... while blindfolded.

The Avalanche of Unsolicited Wisdom
Ever felt bombarded by advice from all corners, including from people you're pretty sure don't even know your last name? It's like everyone's suddenly an expert on your life, career, and whether you should be drinking oat milk or almond milk for optimum health.

The Three Crucial Questions to Ask Yourself

Before taking any advice to heart, consider: Does this person genuinely care about me, or are they just enjoying the sound of their own wisdom? Do they actually have expertise in what they're advising on, or did they just watch a documentary last night? And crucially, do they understand my situation, or are they giving me advice meant for a reality TV show contestant?

Check the blog about this podcast:
https://www.brainbakery.com/brainsnacks-en/advice-feedback-critics-coaches-or-cheerleaders-whos-really-helping-you-grow

Still hungry?
Nom nom… have a nibble on our Brain Snacks
https://www.brainbakery.com/brainsnacks

Does this sound familiar? 

When you start working on a task but do not complete it, you keep thinking about the  unfinished work and have the urge to go back even if you are doing something else?  You are reading a book...and you can't out it down until you get to the end of the chapter? Finishing that level on your favourite video game, before switching off?

What is that? It's a psychological phenomenon named after Bluma Zeigarnik, a Lithuanian psychologist who first studied it in the 1920s.  The Zeigarnik Effect!

By understanding how our brains respond to incomplete tasks, we unlock powerful strategies to motivate learners to reach the finish line. Soap operas and serialised dramas already use the  Zeigarnik effect. For example, an episode may end, but the story is clearly not over. These “cliffhangers” leave viewers eager to see what happens next, and thanks to the Zeigarnik effect, they will be motivated to come back and watch the next episode to find out.

How you can apply this? Well Jeanne shares in the episode how to beat this and how to use it in for learning and development (L&D), keeping the NMBL journey alive!

Check the blog about this podcast:
https://www.brainbakery.com/brainsnacks-en/the-zeigarnik-effect-transforming-learning-with-the-power-of-unfinished-tasks

Still hungry?
Nom nom… have a nibble on our Brain Snacks
https://www.brainbakery.com/brainsnacks

Personality tests are popular because they offer insights into oneself and others, they can give career guidance and team building, and sometimes even provide entertainment. They're easy to access, understand, and share, making them appealing to a broad audience. We have all done them! 

Jeanne urges listeners to be smart when picking a personality test. She wants people to know the facts and not just trust something because it's popular. By understanding the science behind personality tests, we can make better choices for our personal and professional growth.

In this podcast, Jeanne gives a psychologists perspective and breaks down why the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) isn't as reliable as many think. Over 12 million
 people complete this every year and it has quite the influence on dating and interviewing! She explains it lacks solid proof and often simplifies complex personalities too much, giving questionable results.

So join us to find out if you are a purple cow or an orange duck!

Check the blog about this podcast:
https://www.brainbakery.com/brainsnacks-en/unmasking-personality-tests-beyond-the-binary-of-green-cows-and-purple-ducks

Still hungry?
Nom nom… have a nibble on our Brain Snacks
https://www.brainbakery.com/brainsnacks

Your heartbeat is fast, you feel a little shaky and you can feel your face getting hot and red. Does this sound familiar! Well anyone who has had to give a training, presentation, a keynote… may have at some point felt like this. It is normal and doesn’t last.

However the typical advice you get when you are feeling like this is, take some deep breaths and calm down. Which comes from a good place, but doesn’t always help.

What if there was a better way, using science?

In this short and informative episode  we challenge the common advice given on how to manage stress and anxiety. Jeanne shares research by Alison Wood Brooks, revealing the limitations of traditional advice like "calm down, breathe." Instead, we explore Brooks' approach, which suggests reframing anxiety as excitement to perform under pressure.  

Join us as we uncover the science behind this perspective shift.  

Don't forget to leave your feedback – we'd love to hear from you!


Check the blog about this podcast:
https://www.brainbakery.com/brainsnacks-en/excitement-over-nerves-transforming-performance-anxiety-into-success

Still hungry?
Nom nom… have a nibble on our Brain Snacks
https://www.brainbakery.com/brainsnacks

🎉 Let’s shake up the world of openings and transitions!

We discuss the three reasons why it's time to ditch the dull and challenge the traditional ways of opening trainings. Then, Jeanne shares five exciting ways to ensure you never fall back into old habits. Get ready for a fun and inspiring journey that will leave you energized and motivated.

💡 Discover why engaging your participants from start to finish is essential. Jeanne challenges the notion that as adults we really don’t need mundane announcements about coffee or lunch or agenda.

Are you ready to break free from the ordinary and spark curiosity? Tune in and share your thoughts with us. Once you know, you won't want to go back!

Don't forget to leave your feedback – we'd love to hear from you!

Check the blog about this podcast:
https://www.brainbakery.com/brainsnacks-en/say-goodbye-to-boring-elevate-your-openings-transitions

Still hungry?
Nom nom… have a nibble on our Brain Snacks
https://www.brainbakery.com/brainsnacks

Isn’t Time for a New Perspective…about Time? Kickstart this thinking  with our latest episode. As L&D professionals we are always dealing with Time and so are all of the Leaders we coach and our participants. 

Join us on this insightful journey as Jeanne and I unravel the magic of Parkinson's Law. 🕰️ Ever wondered why work seems to expand to fill the time available? Jeanne spills the beans on how understanding this law can revolutionise your time management game and that of your students. 

In this episode:
1️⃣     Jeanne's Top 6 Time-Management Tips 🚀
2️⃣     Personal Stories: Navigating Tasks and Beating the Clock ⏰
3️⃣     The Power of Being Clever with Your Time 💡

Dive deep into the discussion with us as we explore the concept that although we can't stretch the 24 hours in a day, we CAN be savvy about how we use them. 🌈 Let's debunk the myth that more time equals more productivity!

Check the blog about this podcast:
https://www.brainbakery.com/brainsnacks-en/game-on-defeat-parkinsons-law-and-become-the-boss-of-your-time

Still hungry?
Nom nom… have a nibble on our Brain Snacks
https://www.brainbakery.com/brainsnacks