In this thought-provoking interview, Angelo talks with Dr. Macario Giraldo about his pioneering approach to working with groups from a Lacanian perspective. Their conversation delves into the importance of not-understanding, the role of loss in becoming, and how to listen to both the dialogues "in" and "of" the group. They also explore the intriguing interplay between psychoanalysis & spirituality & what Macario calls "the Ethics of the Soul."