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In this episode, we get to speak with King of Web Standards, Jeffrey Zeldman. We discuss the current situation with COVID and how it is impacting our lives at work. We also dive into Jeffrey’s background and lessons from his career journey. Then we chat about believing in yourself, making your own opportunities, and building a better bat cave.
Brian: [00:00:00] Welcome to thunder nerds. I am
[00:00:27] Frederick: [00:00:27] Brian Hinton.
[00:00:38] Brian: [00:00:38] and do tech. Good.
[00:00:42] Frederick: [00:00:42] Hey everybody.
[00:00:46] Really appreciate it. Brian, go ahead and take us off. Yeah, I
[00:00:50] Brian: [00:00:50] think this season
[00:01:21] And, uh, they also have avocado labs for an online destination for a
[00:01:34] Frederick: [00:01:34] Yeah. Thank you
[00:01:51] Jeffrey. Zeldman welcome to the show,
[00:01:53] Jeffrey: [00:01:53] Jeffrey. Thanks
[00:01:59] Frederick: [00:01:59] really
[00:02:13] And, uh, for a lot of us, it's just not obtainable at the moment with
[00:02:29] Jeffrey: [00:02:29] Thank you. Uh, I
[00:02:40] Um, people with unglamorous jobs like janitors, who haven't gotten it,
[00:03:10] I also have read, like, if, if you qualify, you should go get it. Um,
[00:03:37] Uh, they were designed by whoever they could get. Um, they're not,
[00:04:17] And if it's, you know, What if it's not going to be like,
[00:04:42] There were people who had trouble, difficulty walking and so forth, and
[00:04:54] Brian: [00:04:54] and you got COVID
[00:05:00] Jeffrey: [00:05:00] late February, in
[00:05:06] It was COVID like, I was sure it was something else. I was already working
[00:05:30] I breathe like Darth Vader when I'm carrying groceries. I can't
[00:05:59] So I'm not dyslexic. My daughter is sure. My brother is sure. My dad
[00:06:26] I didn't mind being a nerd at all. Yeah, no. Yeah.
[00:06:31] Frederick: [00:06:31] I just meant
[00:06:36] Jeffrey: [00:06:36] Absolutely. I, I,
[00:06:52] So you know how much of this is would have happened anyway, I don't
[00:06:58] Frederick: [00:06:58] I wouldn't
[00:07:15] What about the, the, the post kind of, um, Uh, experience like, do you, do
[00:07:31] Jeffrey: [00:07:31] etc . No, I, um,
[00:07:41] And so I'm really grateful to be alive. I know people who died. I know
[00:08:14] So being stuck at home, doesn't bother me and my kids here. So, and,
[00:08:40] That's horrible. But, um, but spending extra time with your family
[00:08:50] Brian: [00:08:50] Yeah. I mean, we
[00:09:02] That's
[00:09:02] Jeffrey: [00:09:02] totally true. I
[00:09:05] Brian: [00:09:05] say that
[00:09:09] Jeffrey: [00:09:09] we're having
[00:09:15] Brian: [00:09:15] I thought it was,
[00:09:16] Frederick: [00:09:16] uh, uh, uh,
[00:09:30] Jeffrey: [00:09:30] Yeah. Yeah. So I
[00:09:55] Brian: [00:09:55] All these
[00:09:55] Jeffrey: [00:09:55] other problems.
[00:10:22] I'm like, yeah. You know, but you know, so, but now I have a floor, so
[00:10:47] I don't look at it. It's depressing. Uh, but my room, it looks
[00:11:33] Because they make mistakes. This is the third time you've made that
[00:12:02] They're having issues, which are not their fault, which are purely
[00:12:28] Frederick: [00:12:28] Yeah,
[00:12:53] I mean, it's, we're still probably a good year off from getting to
[00:13:21] So they could sneak in and get vaccines. Oh God.
[00:13:25] Jeffrey: [00:13:25] And it works. It
[00:13:27] Frederick: [00:13:27] works. And it
[00:13:28] Jeffrey: [00:13:28] vaccine.
[00:13:32] Frederick: [00:13:32] No, no, no.
[00:13:33] Jeffrey: [00:13:33] Florida
[00:13:42] They're really good with frontline workers, medical, frontline
[00:13:54] Frederick: [00:13:54] In Florida, you
[00:14:00] Cause I'm from Florida. It's everything's okay.
[00:14:02] Brian: [00:14:02] Everything's
[00:14:21] Because I believe it is the most standards, conformant browser, or at
[00:14:42] Um, not because five is good anymore, but back then it was
[00:14:47] Jeffrey: [00:14:47] Mac, Mac Mac.
[00:15:13] Um, and that's not the fault Microsoft, they were ahead of the game
[00:15:43] So hope humbly and Burt, Bose created CSS CSS one and no browser supported
[00:16:10] And then when you're actually building the models, you find out that
[00:16:27] There were a lot of great ideas, but then a lot of things, you know, when
[00:16:54] But in real, you know, in the real world, in your dream, Maybe there's
[00:17:13] I feel really bad. It was the first DSS book I got in 1996. And it was,
[00:17:40] Um, but the other thing, even when I five Mac came out. For a long time, I
[00:18:08] So basically for a long time, we've been getting by on hacks. Oh,
[00:18:12] Brian: [00:18:12] yeah, definitely.
[00:18:16] Jeffrey: [00:18:16] because
[00:18:26] There's standards. Oh, so what's the standard for layout? Well,
[00:18:37] standard.
[00:18:38] Brian: [00:18:38] So
[00:18:39] Frederick: [00:18:39] go ahead. I
[00:18:43] Brian: [00:18:43] Okay.
[00:18:43] Jeffrey: [00:18:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:18:44] Brian: [00:18:44] were, those were
[00:18:47] Jeffrey: [00:18:47] Doug Bowman,
[00:18:54] Um, Dave Shay just really, really talented people who came up with. You
[00:19:27] Now I just have 7,000 gifts and spans and I'm using a childlike demean
[00:19:37] Frederick: [00:19:37] It goes back to
[00:19:48] Okay.
[00:19:49] Brian: [00:19:49] Just checking.
[00:19:50] Jeffrey: [00:19:50] So I, I love, can
[00:20:21] And I was just like, well, the reason, so the reason I loved it was, you
[00:20:37] Brian: [00:20:37] Yeah. And it's
[00:20:45] We don't need to support it.
[00:20:51] Jeffrey: [00:20:51] has, has things
[00:21:11] Um, So it made sense pave the cow paths. It made sense to go let's
[00:21:41] Brian: [00:21:41] Yeah.
[00:21:43] Frederick: [00:21:43] Oh, yeah. Just
[00:21:58] Brian: [00:21:58] Three hours
[00:22:00] Frederick: [00:22:00] or the tower?
[00:22:08] Brian: [00:22:08] the colorful
[00:22:11] Frederick: [00:22:11] I don't
[00:22:16] Jeffrey: [00:22:16] or the iMac,
[00:22:18] Yeah, it was before.
[00:22:19] Frederick: [00:22:19] No, no, no, no.
[00:22:21] Jeffrey: [00:22:21] the iMac, but the
[00:22:36] Brian: [00:22:36] an iMac.
[00:22:37] Frederick: [00:22:37] Yeah. If you
[00:22:44] Jeffrey: [00:22:44] Or if you were
[00:22:55] Brian: [00:22:55] They were colorful
[00:23:00] Jeffrey: [00:23:00] I think. Do you
[00:23:04] Brian: [00:23:04] just quoting Todd
[00:23:10] I mean, you were, you know, you're heavily involved in the web
[00:23:24] Jeffrey: [00:23:24] what, what was
[00:23:31] And I think you're supposed to. Um, I, I learned something from every
[00:23:58] And he took all his loyal writers with them. So all the writers left the
[00:24:16] He liked my thing. And he said, come in. He said, would you, would you
[00:24:40] And I thought nobody's really covering the hip hop scene was called
[00:25:03] Not that I was like a strike breaker or anything, but just like, this was
[00:25:21] Oh my heavens God, this is an amazing opportunity. Sure. I'll do it.
[00:25:41] And I'm not putting those groups down on the, certainly not putting
[00:26:01] Mainstream successful rock. And I wanted to cover this other thing. And
[00:26:21] Anyway, they fired me. I bought before they fought that they fired me
[00:26:42] And right next to, it was an ad that I had worked on. And I was like, this
[00:27:06] That decision is easy. So I, I was a journalist and I, and I, then I
[00:27:31] There's lots of stuff that happens. But you also need passion. And I
[00:27:53] It was like work seven days a week. You know, if you're not willing to
[00:28:18] It was like, they almost like the Soviet union. You're going to be a
[00:28:41] And I would do work that didn't get produced to scare their clients
[00:29:13] Don't write your life story in pencil for this. Um, Point and shoot
[00:29:32] And what they bought was only from Mormon, ultra magic. From this other
[00:29:53] Don Buckley was the VP. And I, we just lied and said, we could, we'd
[00:30:17] Backgrounds and all kinds of stuff that a lot of, we had a flash intro
[00:30:41] And after that, as soon as that was out, um, I've made a personal
[00:31:04] I was in love with the democratizing idea of it. I still am. Despite the
[00:31:31] And also the other thing, I love it throughout the web. Um, a week after
[00:31:51] Obviously it's not better than the movie, but, um, the text was wall
[00:32:19] So I get it. And I, I sweet talked to a producer at Warner brothers and
[00:32:43] So. Like I'll never be that successful again, it was the first project
[00:32:54] Frederick: [00:32:54] know? Yeah.
[00:33:03] They didn't, they didn't even know that they could make a website.
[00:33:18] And you're like that man doesn't dock. Yeah,
[00:33:20] Jeffrey: [00:33:20] that's right.
[00:33:42] They could have talked about early interactive strategies of 1995 and, and
[00:34:08] How can you misjudge the character? He didn't even talk in the movie.
[00:34:29] You, there's a moment. There's a moment in almost every meeting
[00:34:57] A lot of times designers go, why do I have to sit in this meeting?
[00:35:08] Brian: [00:35:08] that's the
[00:35:11] Jeffrey: [00:35:11] That's the
[00:35:14] Frederick: [00:35:14] I love the
[00:35:17] Jeffrey: [00:35:17] that was, you
[00:35:22] It was inspired by America. Online. Cute navigation was a really people.
[00:35:58] Right where it's a giant image and it's clickable, and this relies
[00:36:22] The text files are in the library, the downloadable videos that were 300
[00:37:00] And just the idea that you could take something. So resource-intensive and
[00:37:30] Frederick: [00:37:30] And in the time
[00:37:49] I, I really don't like that term. It's more about just kind of
[00:38:10] And you learn how to do it. And you put out this great project and look
[00:38:27] Jeffrey: [00:38:27] great. Frederick,
[00:38:35] So they could, they made it because we were, nobody knew anything. Nobody
[00:39:02] No problem is insurmountable and I will always keep learning. And I think
[00:39:29] Frederick: [00:39:29] Be endlessly
[00:39:36] Jeffrey: [00:39:36] And I know so
[00:40:00] We all have one way or another, right?
[00:40:03] Frederick: [00:40:03] Yeah,
[00:40:22] Um, you took responsibility, you took ownership for the way things were
[00:40:40] It's, it's about keeping your eyes open. It's about, um, being
[00:41:02] Like, is it, um, like voice technology? Is it, is it something else?
[00:41:06] Jeffrey: [00:41:06] Oh,
[00:41:10] I think, okay. Man my brain, I'm thinking faster than I can speak. Um,
[00:41:38] Removing friction, making it easier for people to shop, making it easier
[00:42:05] We say you can return the product for a refund there. We know how to make
[00:42:31] Uh, but we have the chance to. Do better as an industry. So that's one
[00:42:56] It's the company wants to do a better job. They know they should do a
[00:43:31] Now may end up being something that works for a non-disabled driver. Who
[00:43:58] So it all overlaps the multi-device universe, the need for, uh, Con four
[00:44:26] There's a war between we can make stuff. That's so awesome by
[00:45:03] Maybe visual, maybe some, some, uh, you know, maybe, um, touch, but it
[00:45:23] And it's gotta be, you know, it's gotta be, there's always
[00:46:01] For everyone, regardless of their device, regardless of the size of the
[00:46:42] Alert, we're trading it off for a high learning curve. I don't
[00:47:03] So it's almost like giving people 12 fonts and illustrator. But not
[00:47:29] As a product designer, as a product developer, being a generalist is still
[00:47:53] Of a particular aspect or particular niche of it. Yeah, I've
[00:47:58] Brian: [00:47:58] seen that with, uh,
[00:48:24] I think they're amazing. Uh, I wish back when, in my day there are
[00:48:39] Frederick: [00:48:39] you mentioned
[00:48:42] I think you were, had a interview with Dan the other day where you're
[00:49:01] Jeffrey: [00:49:01] Right.
[00:49:30] And I, I do quote, my friend, Rachel, Andrew, who was a young mom. Um, and
[00:49:53] I hate the idea. I love the view source. Like when I was teaching people
[00:50:09] Frederick: [00:50:09] uh, that's
[00:50:12] Now you would like pop up in the inspector for now
[00:50:14] Jeffrey: [00:50:14] the inspector
[00:50:26] Brian: [00:50:26] class names that
[00:50:50] The beginning days of the web and some weird ways where it's not
[00:51:12] Jeffrey: [00:51:12] So it's not
[00:51:48] And, you know, that's not perfect either because it's possible to
[00:52:09] Right? You can't, you can't automate being a doctor. You can't
[00:52:45] Experimentation willing to learn a willingness to learn, willingness to
[00:53:07] Frederick: [00:53:07] nature of
[00:53:08] Jeffrey, we're getting really close to the end. I just, I would feel
[00:53:19] Jeffrey: [00:53:19] Yeah,
[00:53:20] Frederick: [00:53:20] sure. Do you
[00:53:24] Jeffrey: [00:53:24] Sure, absolutely.
[00:53:49] Um, if you could put it, if you could put that screen up again and scroll
[00:54:11] We curate the heck out of the experience because we're experienced
[00:54:31] We, we serve developers as well as designers. It's a front end UX
[00:54:53] And you know, Eric and I, before we started this conference, we'd both
[00:55:20] And I was just getting to know Eric and we always said, We love South by
[00:55:46] So that everyone's taught, there's a topography session.
[00:56:04] There are other one track conferences and that's cool, but it's a
[00:56:29] And Jen Simmons was doing advanced layout and, uh, Ethan Marcotte debuted.
[00:56:51] Brian: [00:56:51] I love about it is
[00:56:54] And I'm a big, I'm a big believer to have one track. I like, I
[00:57:12] Jeffrey: [00:57:12] And then, and
[00:57:20] You see what Brian says? No. So this way everybody, you get to network
[00:57:28] Frederick: [00:57:28] I think
[00:57:38] Jeffrey: [00:57:38] if you, if you
[00:57:40] Yeah. It's Dan Cedar homes and senior homes find new book. Uh, 20
[00:58:15] Excellent. Yeah. And it's it's uh, so. Live, you get donuts, live
[00:58:43] We'll have a virtual. Thank you, Todd. Let me talk. Libby has been to
[00:59:00] Frederick: [00:59:00] that was, that
[00:59:09] Uh, so I was like, Oh, I don't know if I should say hi. I was a little
[00:59:13] Jeffrey: [00:59:13] I love meeting
[00:59:32] I miss restaurants. I miss looking at my favorite scenery and everything,
[00:59:52] But we're trying, we're trying to make the digital experience as
[00:59:59] Brian: [00:59:59] yeah. I definitely
[01:00:11] Um, and there's the lightning. And so I'll, I'll. I'll
[01:00:31] Jeffrey: [01:00:31] I don't want
[01:00:35] Brian: [01:00:35] that's a good
[01:00:38] Frederick: [01:00:38] Jeffrey. What
[01:00:43] Jeffrey: [01:00:43] Ben down the
[01:00:51] Brian: [01:00:51] It's so good.
[01:00:56] Jeffrey: [01:00:56] to do that
[01:00:58] Picking up Kleenexes from the floor, how they got there. I will say
[01:01:07] Frederick: [01:01:07] Jeffrey blood.
[01:01:11] Jeffrey: [01:01:11] right now for Tom
[01:01:29] Yeah. The seventies were completely different sounds and he has a duet
[01:01:51] Brian: [01:01:51] It's
[01:01:53] So, so where do you mind not waiting? So you're waiting somewhere and
[01:01:58] Jeffrey: [01:01:58] here. Um, I
[01:02:28] I don't know why it's bizarre. And when on, on a flight, um,
[01:02:48] It's weird. Um, I hate sitting in an airport. And, uh, yeah, and I
[01:03:08] Frederick: [01:03:08] Uh, Jeffrey,
[01:03:16] Do you still play now? And, uh, do you have any kind of musical
[01:03:21] Jeffrey: [01:03:21] I still play
[01:03:41] I think like, like most people, um, the amount of drive that you need, uh,
[01:04:04] Like there's more work for you and I'm not putting accountants
[01:04:21] He might have more fun as the musician. And then, and then to have
[01:04:39] Brian: [01:04:39] What w my, my last
[01:04:48] Jeffrey: [01:04:48] We're all
[01:04:51] Frederick: [01:04:51] That's a
[01:05:04] Jeffrey: [01:05:04] read books in my
[01:05:15] Um, my daughter is brilliant and she says, she's weird. And I say, no,
[01:05:43] We're also awesome. I think everyone, you know, so, so. Yeah, that was
[01:05:57] Frederick: [01:05:57] That brings me
[01:06:06] Yeah,
[01:06:06] Brian: [01:06:06] I know.
[01:06:08] Jeffrey: [01:06:08] But, but no
[01:06:19] Brian: [01:06:19] pretty
[01:06:19] Jeffrey: [01:06:19] impossible. Then
[01:06:30] He made me forget, um, the brilliant British actor.
[01:06:34] Frederick: [01:06:34] He's
[01:06:38] Brian: [01:06:38] no, no, that's
[01:06:47] Jeffrey: [01:06:47] thank you for
[01:06:50] You're wonderful interviewers, really nice people. I'm wishing you
[01:07:00] Frederick: [01:07:00] Jeffrey J the
[01:07:07] Jeffrey: [01:07:07] uh, I, I would
[01:07:17] Uh, we all have, um, We all have imposter syndrome. Everyone has imposter
[01:07:40] So believe it yourself. If people. If you're looking for a job and
[01:08:01] That's what I would say.
[01:08:02] Brian: [01:08:02] Awesome.
[01:08:03] Frederick: [01:08:03] Sounds great.
[01:08:16] Jeffrey: [01:08:16] I'm making a
[01:08:19] Brian: [01:08:19] one. Sorry,
[01:08:21] Frederick: [01:08:21] but yeah,
[01:08:23] Thank you so much for being on the show. Really appreciate it. And thanks
4.9
2222 ratings
In this episode, we get to speak with King of Web Standards, Jeffrey Zeldman. We discuss the current situation with COVID and how it is impacting our lives at work. We also dive into Jeffrey’s background and lessons from his career journey. Then we chat about believing in yourself, making your own opportunities, and building a better bat cave.
Brian: [00:00:00] Welcome to thunder nerds. I am
[00:00:27] Frederick: [00:00:27] Brian Hinton.
[00:00:38] Brian: [00:00:38] and do tech. Good.
[00:00:42] Frederick: [00:00:42] Hey everybody.
[00:00:46] Really appreciate it. Brian, go ahead and take us off. Yeah, I
[00:00:50] Brian: [00:00:50] think this season
[00:01:21] And, uh, they also have avocado labs for an online destination for a
[00:01:34] Frederick: [00:01:34] Yeah. Thank you
[00:01:51] Jeffrey. Zeldman welcome to the show,
[00:01:53] Jeffrey: [00:01:53] Jeffrey. Thanks
[00:01:59] Frederick: [00:01:59] really
[00:02:13] And, uh, for a lot of us, it's just not obtainable at the moment with
[00:02:29] Jeffrey: [00:02:29] Thank you. Uh, I
[00:02:40] Um, people with unglamorous jobs like janitors, who haven't gotten it,
[00:03:10] I also have read, like, if, if you qualify, you should go get it. Um,
[00:03:37] Uh, they were designed by whoever they could get. Um, they're not,
[00:04:17] And if it's, you know, What if it's not going to be like,
[00:04:42] There were people who had trouble, difficulty walking and so forth, and
[00:04:54] Brian: [00:04:54] and you got COVID
[00:05:00] Jeffrey: [00:05:00] late February, in
[00:05:06] It was COVID like, I was sure it was something else. I was already working
[00:05:30] I breathe like Darth Vader when I'm carrying groceries. I can't
[00:05:59] So I'm not dyslexic. My daughter is sure. My brother is sure. My dad
[00:06:26] I didn't mind being a nerd at all. Yeah, no. Yeah.
[00:06:31] Frederick: [00:06:31] I just meant
[00:06:36] Jeffrey: [00:06:36] Absolutely. I, I,
[00:06:52] So you know how much of this is would have happened anyway, I don't
[00:06:58] Frederick: [00:06:58] I wouldn't
[00:07:15] What about the, the, the post kind of, um, Uh, experience like, do you, do
[00:07:31] Jeffrey: [00:07:31] etc . No, I, um,
[00:07:41] And so I'm really grateful to be alive. I know people who died. I know
[00:08:14] So being stuck at home, doesn't bother me and my kids here. So, and,
[00:08:40] That's horrible. But, um, but spending extra time with your family
[00:08:50] Brian: [00:08:50] Yeah. I mean, we
[00:09:02] That's
[00:09:02] Jeffrey: [00:09:02] totally true. I
[00:09:05] Brian: [00:09:05] say that
[00:09:09] Jeffrey: [00:09:09] we're having
[00:09:15] Brian: [00:09:15] I thought it was,
[00:09:16] Frederick: [00:09:16] uh, uh, uh,
[00:09:30] Jeffrey: [00:09:30] Yeah. Yeah. So I
[00:09:55] Brian: [00:09:55] All these
[00:09:55] Jeffrey: [00:09:55] other problems.
[00:10:22] I'm like, yeah. You know, but you know, so, but now I have a floor, so
[00:10:47] I don't look at it. It's depressing. Uh, but my room, it looks
[00:11:33] Because they make mistakes. This is the third time you've made that
[00:12:02] They're having issues, which are not their fault, which are purely
[00:12:28] Frederick: [00:12:28] Yeah,
[00:12:53] I mean, it's, we're still probably a good year off from getting to
[00:13:21] So they could sneak in and get vaccines. Oh God.
[00:13:25] Jeffrey: [00:13:25] And it works. It
[00:13:27] Frederick: [00:13:27] works. And it
[00:13:28] Jeffrey: [00:13:28] vaccine.
[00:13:32] Frederick: [00:13:32] No, no, no.
[00:13:33] Jeffrey: [00:13:33] Florida
[00:13:42] They're really good with frontline workers, medical, frontline
[00:13:54] Frederick: [00:13:54] In Florida, you
[00:14:00] Cause I'm from Florida. It's everything's okay.
[00:14:02] Brian: [00:14:02] Everything's
[00:14:21] Because I believe it is the most standards, conformant browser, or at
[00:14:42] Um, not because five is good anymore, but back then it was
[00:14:47] Jeffrey: [00:14:47] Mac, Mac Mac.
[00:15:13] Um, and that's not the fault Microsoft, they were ahead of the game
[00:15:43] So hope humbly and Burt, Bose created CSS CSS one and no browser supported
[00:16:10] And then when you're actually building the models, you find out that
[00:16:27] There were a lot of great ideas, but then a lot of things, you know, when
[00:16:54] But in real, you know, in the real world, in your dream, Maybe there's
[00:17:13] I feel really bad. It was the first DSS book I got in 1996. And it was,
[00:17:40] Um, but the other thing, even when I five Mac came out. For a long time, I
[00:18:08] So basically for a long time, we've been getting by on hacks. Oh,
[00:18:12] Brian: [00:18:12] yeah, definitely.
[00:18:16] Jeffrey: [00:18:16] because
[00:18:26] There's standards. Oh, so what's the standard for layout? Well,
[00:18:37] standard.
[00:18:38] Brian: [00:18:38] So
[00:18:39] Frederick: [00:18:39] go ahead. I
[00:18:43] Brian: [00:18:43] Okay.
[00:18:43] Jeffrey: [00:18:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:18:44] Brian: [00:18:44] were, those were
[00:18:47] Jeffrey: [00:18:47] Doug Bowman,
[00:18:54] Um, Dave Shay just really, really talented people who came up with. You
[00:19:27] Now I just have 7,000 gifts and spans and I'm using a childlike demean
[00:19:37] Frederick: [00:19:37] It goes back to
[00:19:48] Okay.
[00:19:49] Brian: [00:19:49] Just checking.
[00:19:50] Jeffrey: [00:19:50] So I, I love, can
[00:20:21] And I was just like, well, the reason, so the reason I loved it was, you
[00:20:37] Brian: [00:20:37] Yeah. And it's
[00:20:45] We don't need to support it.
[00:20:51] Jeffrey: [00:20:51] has, has things
[00:21:11] Um, So it made sense pave the cow paths. It made sense to go let's
[00:21:41] Brian: [00:21:41] Yeah.
[00:21:43] Frederick: [00:21:43] Oh, yeah. Just
[00:21:58] Brian: [00:21:58] Three hours
[00:22:00] Frederick: [00:22:00] or the tower?
[00:22:08] Brian: [00:22:08] the colorful
[00:22:11] Frederick: [00:22:11] I don't
[00:22:16] Jeffrey: [00:22:16] or the iMac,
[00:22:18] Yeah, it was before.
[00:22:19] Frederick: [00:22:19] No, no, no, no.
[00:22:21] Jeffrey: [00:22:21] the iMac, but the
[00:22:36] Brian: [00:22:36] an iMac.
[00:22:37] Frederick: [00:22:37] Yeah. If you
[00:22:44] Jeffrey: [00:22:44] Or if you were
[00:22:55] Brian: [00:22:55] They were colorful
[00:23:00] Jeffrey: [00:23:00] I think. Do you
[00:23:04] Brian: [00:23:04] just quoting Todd
[00:23:10] I mean, you were, you know, you're heavily involved in the web
[00:23:24] Jeffrey: [00:23:24] what, what was
[00:23:31] And I think you're supposed to. Um, I, I learned something from every
[00:23:58] And he took all his loyal writers with them. So all the writers left the
[00:24:16] He liked my thing. And he said, come in. He said, would you, would you
[00:24:40] And I thought nobody's really covering the hip hop scene was called
[00:25:03] Not that I was like a strike breaker or anything, but just like, this was
[00:25:21] Oh my heavens God, this is an amazing opportunity. Sure. I'll do it.
[00:25:41] And I'm not putting those groups down on the, certainly not putting
[00:26:01] Mainstream successful rock. And I wanted to cover this other thing. And
[00:26:21] Anyway, they fired me. I bought before they fought that they fired me
[00:26:42] And right next to, it was an ad that I had worked on. And I was like, this
[00:27:06] That decision is easy. So I, I was a journalist and I, and I, then I
[00:27:31] There's lots of stuff that happens. But you also need passion. And I
[00:27:53] It was like work seven days a week. You know, if you're not willing to
[00:28:18] It was like, they almost like the Soviet union. You're going to be a
[00:28:41] And I would do work that didn't get produced to scare their clients
[00:29:13] Don't write your life story in pencil for this. Um, Point and shoot
[00:29:32] And what they bought was only from Mormon, ultra magic. From this other
[00:29:53] Don Buckley was the VP. And I, we just lied and said, we could, we'd
[00:30:17] Backgrounds and all kinds of stuff that a lot of, we had a flash intro
[00:30:41] And after that, as soon as that was out, um, I've made a personal
[00:31:04] I was in love with the democratizing idea of it. I still am. Despite the
[00:31:31] And also the other thing, I love it throughout the web. Um, a week after
[00:31:51] Obviously it's not better than the movie, but, um, the text was wall
[00:32:19] So I get it. And I, I sweet talked to a producer at Warner brothers and
[00:32:43] So. Like I'll never be that successful again, it was the first project
[00:32:54] Frederick: [00:32:54] know? Yeah.
[00:33:03] They didn't, they didn't even know that they could make a website.
[00:33:18] And you're like that man doesn't dock. Yeah,
[00:33:20] Jeffrey: [00:33:20] that's right.
[00:33:42] They could have talked about early interactive strategies of 1995 and, and
[00:34:08] How can you misjudge the character? He didn't even talk in the movie.
[00:34:29] You, there's a moment. There's a moment in almost every meeting
[00:34:57] A lot of times designers go, why do I have to sit in this meeting?
[00:35:08] Brian: [00:35:08] that's the
[00:35:11] Jeffrey: [00:35:11] That's the
[00:35:14] Frederick: [00:35:14] I love the
[00:35:17] Jeffrey: [00:35:17] that was, you
[00:35:22] It was inspired by America. Online. Cute navigation was a really people.
[00:35:58] Right where it's a giant image and it's clickable, and this relies
[00:36:22] The text files are in the library, the downloadable videos that were 300
[00:37:00] And just the idea that you could take something. So resource-intensive and
[00:37:30] Frederick: [00:37:30] And in the time
[00:37:49] I, I really don't like that term. It's more about just kind of
[00:38:10] And you learn how to do it. And you put out this great project and look
[00:38:27] Jeffrey: [00:38:27] great. Frederick,
[00:38:35] So they could, they made it because we were, nobody knew anything. Nobody
[00:39:02] No problem is insurmountable and I will always keep learning. And I think
[00:39:29] Frederick: [00:39:29] Be endlessly
[00:39:36] Jeffrey: [00:39:36] And I know so
[00:40:00] We all have one way or another, right?
[00:40:03] Frederick: [00:40:03] Yeah,
[00:40:22] Um, you took responsibility, you took ownership for the way things were
[00:40:40] It's, it's about keeping your eyes open. It's about, um, being
[00:41:02] Like, is it, um, like voice technology? Is it, is it something else?
[00:41:06] Jeffrey: [00:41:06] Oh,
[00:41:10] I think, okay. Man my brain, I'm thinking faster than I can speak. Um,
[00:41:38] Removing friction, making it easier for people to shop, making it easier
[00:42:05] We say you can return the product for a refund there. We know how to make
[00:42:31] Uh, but we have the chance to. Do better as an industry. So that's one
[00:42:56] It's the company wants to do a better job. They know they should do a
[00:43:31] Now may end up being something that works for a non-disabled driver. Who
[00:43:58] So it all overlaps the multi-device universe, the need for, uh, Con four
[00:44:26] There's a war between we can make stuff. That's so awesome by
[00:45:03] Maybe visual, maybe some, some, uh, you know, maybe, um, touch, but it
[00:45:23] And it's gotta be, you know, it's gotta be, there's always
[00:46:01] For everyone, regardless of their device, regardless of the size of the
[00:46:42] Alert, we're trading it off for a high learning curve. I don't
[00:47:03] So it's almost like giving people 12 fonts and illustrator. But not
[00:47:29] As a product designer, as a product developer, being a generalist is still
[00:47:53] Of a particular aspect or particular niche of it. Yeah, I've
[00:47:58] Brian: [00:47:58] seen that with, uh,
[00:48:24] I think they're amazing. Uh, I wish back when, in my day there are
[00:48:39] Frederick: [00:48:39] you mentioned
[00:48:42] I think you were, had a interview with Dan the other day where you're
[00:49:01] Jeffrey: [00:49:01] Right.
[00:49:30] And I, I do quote, my friend, Rachel, Andrew, who was a young mom. Um, and
[00:49:53] I hate the idea. I love the view source. Like when I was teaching people
[00:50:09] Frederick: [00:50:09] uh, that's
[00:50:12] Now you would like pop up in the inspector for now
[00:50:14] Jeffrey: [00:50:14] the inspector
[00:50:26] Brian: [00:50:26] class names that
[00:50:50] The beginning days of the web and some weird ways where it's not
[00:51:12] Jeffrey: [00:51:12] So it's not
[00:51:48] And, you know, that's not perfect either because it's possible to
[00:52:09] Right? You can't, you can't automate being a doctor. You can't
[00:52:45] Experimentation willing to learn a willingness to learn, willingness to
[00:53:07] Frederick: [00:53:07] nature of
[00:53:08] Jeffrey, we're getting really close to the end. I just, I would feel
[00:53:19] Jeffrey: [00:53:19] Yeah,
[00:53:20] Frederick: [00:53:20] sure. Do you
[00:53:24] Jeffrey: [00:53:24] Sure, absolutely.
[00:53:49] Um, if you could put it, if you could put that screen up again and scroll
[00:54:11] We curate the heck out of the experience because we're experienced
[00:54:31] We, we serve developers as well as designers. It's a front end UX
[00:54:53] And you know, Eric and I, before we started this conference, we'd both
[00:55:20] And I was just getting to know Eric and we always said, We love South by
[00:55:46] So that everyone's taught, there's a topography session.
[00:56:04] There are other one track conferences and that's cool, but it's a
[00:56:29] And Jen Simmons was doing advanced layout and, uh, Ethan Marcotte debuted.
[00:56:51] Brian: [00:56:51] I love about it is
[00:56:54] And I'm a big, I'm a big believer to have one track. I like, I
[00:57:12] Jeffrey: [00:57:12] And then, and
[00:57:20] You see what Brian says? No. So this way everybody, you get to network
[00:57:28] Frederick: [00:57:28] I think
[00:57:38] Jeffrey: [00:57:38] if you, if you
[00:57:40] Yeah. It's Dan Cedar homes and senior homes find new book. Uh, 20
[00:58:15] Excellent. Yeah. And it's it's uh, so. Live, you get donuts, live
[00:58:43] We'll have a virtual. Thank you, Todd. Let me talk. Libby has been to
[00:59:00] Frederick: [00:59:00] that was, that
[00:59:09] Uh, so I was like, Oh, I don't know if I should say hi. I was a little
[00:59:13] Jeffrey: [00:59:13] I love meeting
[00:59:32] I miss restaurants. I miss looking at my favorite scenery and everything,
[00:59:52] But we're trying, we're trying to make the digital experience as
[00:59:59] Brian: [00:59:59] yeah. I definitely
[01:00:11] Um, and there's the lightning. And so I'll, I'll. I'll
[01:00:31] Jeffrey: [01:00:31] I don't want
[01:00:35] Brian: [01:00:35] that's a good
[01:00:38] Frederick: [01:00:38] Jeffrey. What
[01:00:43] Jeffrey: [01:00:43] Ben down the
[01:00:51] Brian: [01:00:51] It's so good.
[01:00:56] Jeffrey: [01:00:56] to do that
[01:00:58] Picking up Kleenexes from the floor, how they got there. I will say
[01:01:07] Frederick: [01:01:07] Jeffrey blood.
[01:01:11] Jeffrey: [01:01:11] right now for Tom
[01:01:29] Yeah. The seventies were completely different sounds and he has a duet
[01:01:51] Brian: [01:01:51] It's
[01:01:53] So, so where do you mind not waiting? So you're waiting somewhere and
[01:01:58] Jeffrey: [01:01:58] here. Um, I
[01:02:28] I don't know why it's bizarre. And when on, on a flight, um,
[01:02:48] It's weird. Um, I hate sitting in an airport. And, uh, yeah, and I
[01:03:08] Frederick: [01:03:08] Uh, Jeffrey,
[01:03:16] Do you still play now? And, uh, do you have any kind of musical
[01:03:21] Jeffrey: [01:03:21] I still play
[01:03:41] I think like, like most people, um, the amount of drive that you need, uh,
[01:04:04] Like there's more work for you and I'm not putting accountants
[01:04:21] He might have more fun as the musician. And then, and then to have
[01:04:39] Brian: [01:04:39] What w my, my last
[01:04:48] Jeffrey: [01:04:48] We're all
[01:04:51] Frederick: [01:04:51] That's a
[01:05:04] Jeffrey: [01:05:04] read books in my
[01:05:15] Um, my daughter is brilliant and she says, she's weird. And I say, no,
[01:05:43] We're also awesome. I think everyone, you know, so, so. Yeah, that was
[01:05:57] Frederick: [01:05:57] That brings me
[01:06:06] Yeah,
[01:06:06] Brian: [01:06:06] I know.
[01:06:08] Jeffrey: [01:06:08] But, but no
[01:06:19] Brian: [01:06:19] pretty
[01:06:19] Jeffrey: [01:06:19] impossible. Then
[01:06:30] He made me forget, um, the brilliant British actor.
[01:06:34] Frederick: [01:06:34] He's
[01:06:38] Brian: [01:06:38] no, no, that's
[01:06:47] Jeffrey: [01:06:47] thank you for
[01:06:50] You're wonderful interviewers, really nice people. I'm wishing you
[01:07:00] Frederick: [01:07:00] Jeffrey J the
[01:07:07] Jeffrey: [01:07:07] uh, I, I would
[01:07:17] Uh, we all have, um, We all have imposter syndrome. Everyone has imposter
[01:07:40] So believe it yourself. If people. If you're looking for a job and
[01:08:01] That's what I would say.
[01:08:02] Brian: [01:08:02] Awesome.
[01:08:03] Frederick: [01:08:03] Sounds great.
[01:08:16] Jeffrey: [01:08:16] I'm making a
[01:08:19] Brian: [01:08:19] one. Sorry,
[01:08:21] Frederick: [01:08:21] but yeah,
[01:08:23] Thank you so much for being on the show. Really appreciate it. And thanks