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In this episode, we talk with SWYX, author, speaker, podcaster, and learning in public evangelist. We dive into his career history in finance and how he transitioned into development. We also discuss the challenges of Developer Experience, the advantages of learning in public, and lessons learned from podcasting. Additionally, we get a musical performance from SWYX himself.
Bonus: We have Software Engineer, Arit Amana as a guest co-host.
[00:00:00] Frederick Weiss: Welcome, I’m Frederick
[00:01:08] Frederick
[00:01:44] Frederick
[00:01:48] Arit
[00:01:52] Frederick
[00:02:08] Frederick
[00:02:13] SWYX: Thanks. Yeah.
[00:02:16] Frederick
[00:02:39] Frederick
[00:02:47] SWYX: Yes, sir. Seattle. Um, yeah, I went to Croatia for a conference. They shift conferences as
[00:03:05] SWYX: And so I, I went with it with all my friends who were also speakers and had a really good
[00:03:25] SWYX: So, uh, it turns out that, uh, I mean, I knew in concept about the chunk travel ban, but
[00:03:53] SWYX: Uh, so I had to go quarantine in Mexico for, for 14 days. Uh, don't really speak the
[00:04:05] Frederick
[00:04:11] SWYX: not count the matter? Yeah.
[00:04:13] SWYX: It didn't
[00:04:13] Frederick
[00:04:34] SWYX: Um, everyone's, everyone's fairly actually, I think, yeah. I would say, I'll
[00:04:56] Frederick
[00:05:15] Frederick
[00:05:19] SWYX: Lambda.
[00:05:20] Arit
[00:05:26] SWYX: Oh, is
[00:05:26] Frederick
[00:05:41] Frederick
[00:05:55] Frederick
[00:06:12] SWYX: yourself? Yeah, I'm born and raised in Singapore and came to the states for
[00:06:16] SWYX: Uh, and I spent my first career in finance where I did, uh, investment banking and hedge
[00:06:36] SWYX: Ha. It was fantastic. Uh, I had, I came out of investment banking with a 4,000 line, uh,
[00:06:55] SWYX: Uh, yeah. It's, it's on, it's on, they get up just actually, cause I, I lost it
[00:07:13] SWYX: Uh, it was very stressful, and uh, I think it's not very good for, um, just like
[00:07:34] SWYX: So whatever trade I made, whether or not it made money, the next trade, uh, would have to
[00:07:55] SWYX: Um, I just, I had enough, I just burned out. Um, and it wasn't, it wasn't like, I
[00:08:19] SWYX: You know, so, uh, but there was one thing I was good at, which is coding, uh, which was
[00:08:42] SWYX: Like in this different way, I would have to go back and punch those numbers in and get the
[00:08:59] SWYX: Um, I think actually front end developers, don't under, don't appreciate sometimes
[00:09:23] SWYX: So I tried six months of self-learning with free code camp and I didn't feel it was enough. So I enrolled in a bootcamp and
[00:09:46] SWYX: More like basically five-plus plus,
[00:10:02] Frederick
[00:10:21] Frederick
[00:10:36] SWYX: passion. I think there was a, there was passion, otherwise, I wouldn't have stuck with
[00:10:42] SWYX: Um, I w what got me into it was honestly the 1997 and 2001 financial crisis. So 1997 is not
[00:11:07] SWYX: But, but, uh, I realized that basically every other job, every other industry is inherently
[00:11:35] SWYX: And again like everyone, you know, out of a job or like overextended in your loans or
[00:12:02] SWYX: Like they, the, they say things that are, may not actually be true. And if, if you, if you
[00:12:21] SWYX: In the center of the financial transformation of assets. And I think that's a very
[00:12:42] SWYX: That's kind of the summary of it. Um, I also didn't like the people I would say
[00:13:05] SWYX: Why say was a notional. Uh, it's not actually, we didn't have a billion dollars
[00:13:26] SWYX: And yeah. I mean, I thought that that was my deal position. I spent 10 years getting there
[00:13:39] Arit
[00:13:47] Arit
[00:14:08] Arit
[00:14:25] SWYX: I speak to a lot of, uh, finance refugees who are like me, they heard my story and then,
[00:14:36] SWYX: Like, do you want me to walk away from this? Uh, and yeah. You know, and changing careers,
[00:14:56] SWYX: You should be, uh, it should be well-known in your industry by now. And to say like, ah,
[00:15:15] SWYX: Um,
[00:15:15] Frederick
[00:15:40] Frederick
[00:15:47] SWYX: Is that fair? Um, that was that's a slightly tangential thing. Uh, but I was definitely
[00:16:07] SWYX: Long-term, uh, I don't think it serves them very well sometimes because I find that
[00:16:25] SWYX: Um, but sometimes they don't know what your interests are and if your interest diverged
[00:16:42] SWYX: So. Yeah. Th this tweet is a more recent realization, nothing to do with the finance bit.
[00:16:52] Frederick
[00:17:03] Frederick
[00:17:14] SWYX: go, go forward for anyone who's considering a career change or anyone who knows a
[00:17:20] SWYX: This is exactly what I did. I took a year to do it. Um, I left my hedge fund. I joined a
[00:17:43] SWYX: And, uh, while I was there, I learned to code on decide, uh, F using free code camp.
[00:18:02] Frederick
[00:18:02] Frederick
[00:18:04] Arit
[00:18:32] SWYX: Yeah. Yeah. How long did you take to go through this whole thing?
[00:18:36] Arit
[00:18:46] SWYX: That's pretty good. That's pretty good. Yeah.
[00:18:48] Arit
[00:18:55] Arit
[00:19:16] Arit
[00:19:29] SWYX: The title is head of developer experience. It's kind of
[00:19:31] Arit
[00:19:42] SWYX: Sure. I, I, I've been asked to, uh, various versions of this car for quite recently,
[00:20:11] SWYX: So you see developer experience teams that like Spotify or slack or, um, Netflix, uh, their
[00:20:30] SWYX: So, uh, for those people, the way that I split it up is kind of. You there the three main
[00:20:48] SWYX: That's the first bit, the second bit is, uh, getting from code to deploy really, really
[00:21:11] SWYX: So, uh, that's kind of like the full software development life cycle that I really like
[00:21:28] SWYX: So, um, what we are trying to do is we're trying to serve these internal developer
[00:21:47] SWYX: So external developer experience, uh, Kind of mostly right now developer relations, which
[00:22:05] SWYX: Um, but also I think it's starting to evolve a little bit more into community
[00:22:27] SWYX: And they realized that a more vibrant community actually is, uh, is a more sustainable moat
[00:22:46] SWYX: Uh, what I mean by products is that, um, that no amount of advocacy you can do in the
[00:23:10] SWYX: Uh, here's all, here's what, here's the pain points and here's how, what
[00:23:22] SWYX: It just use your thing. And it just.
[00:23:26] Arit
[00:23:40] Arit
[00:24:20] SWYX: We don't handle it very well.
[00:24:25] SWYX: Let's just be honest, right? Like we're still figuring this out. Like, um, I, I
[00:24:47] SWYX: That's the notion essentially like we take notes, uh, when we interact with customers
[00:25:07] SWYX: So we don't do that. Uh, we do that for, you know, large names and prospective
[00:25:31] SWYX: Like, uh, from the landing page to onto the first page of the docs to the hello world. Um,
[00:25:53] SWYX: Um, and so what can we squeeze in there that will get you interested in and get you to come
[00:26:16] SWYX: Um, and then once you've decided to use the tool, how do we get you to production with
[00:26:44] SWYX: Uh, and then community-wise, I think
[00:27:07] SWYX: So a lot of things get dropped. Maybe we could do a better job of it, but also I would just
[00:27:17] Arit
[00:27:38] Arit
[00:27:43] SWYX: Yeah. Um, to some extent I've already given up and being like a full-time developer. So
[00:28:05] SWYX: So three months out of the 12 months of a year, you are on the edge team. You do not have
[00:28:20] SWYX: I think that's a really nice thing to do. Unfortunately, three months is actually quite
[00:28:37] SWYX: You're not on call for the thing that you wrote nine months ago. Like, uh, there are a
[00:29:02] SWYX: Uh, even though I'm not writing. Production code. I am determining the design of
[00:29:27] SWYX: Um, there's, there are a thousand
[00:29:47] Frederick
[00:29:56] Frederick
[00:30:01] SWYX: a few years ago. No, this is April to May,
[00:30:07] Frederick
[00:30:16] SWYX: I had two months off between uh Netlify and, and, uh, Amazon. So I, uh, I decided that I
[00:30:35] SWYX: And my blog was on learning and public has had over a million. And constantly get
[00:30:54] SWYX: So I expanded upon it. I was like, okay, I'll, I'll try to make this like a
[00:31:21] SWYX: What's what, there's a little bit of imposter syndrome giving out career advice
[00:31:37] SWYX: So, um, it's, this is not advice, not just advice from me, this advice from 1400 other
[00:31:55] SWYX: Um, I, I try not to address the like first job hunts thing because a lot of other resources
[00:32:12] SWYX: They're not resources to get you from junior to senior. And guess what? Like, most
[00:32:27] SWYX: Uh, I think it's the equivalent of having a good mentor, um, at work. And sometimes you
[00:32:44] SWYX: So they come to me and, uh, I try to help them as best as I can.
[00:32:48] Frederick
[00:33:02] SWYX: Yeah, I've actually simplified. I used to have three tiers and that was just like,
[00:33:21] SWYX: It's just super stressful. I'm, I'm sick of all the subscriptions I'm
[00:33:42] SWYX: It's a one-time fee of like, I don't know, like 40, 50. Uh, 40 bucks and, and yeah,
[00:34:10] SWYX: I have people showing up and saying, they asked me questions, and then you go away and come back seven months later and they go like, Hey,
[00:34:25] SWYX: And one of them doubled their pay, um, going from junior to senior. And, uh, I was just,
[00:34:42] SWYX: They can talk about career stuff apart from their friend network who may not be developers
[00:34:59] Frederick
[00:35:05] Frederick
[00:35:25] Frederick
[00:35:46] Frederick
[00:36:13] Frederick
[00:36:20] SWYX: Yeah, that's true. Um, I think it basically takes advantage of the fact that tech is a
[00:36:37] SWYX: You know, we open-source our code that
[00:37:03] SWYX: Um, and so I think if, I think if you do that for your own learning, you actually learn
[00:37:22] SWYX: Um, because when you start off learning, it's a, it's always a burst of inspiration
[00:37:47] SWYX: Like actually, you know, other people are in the same boat with me or they're mentoring
[00:38:09] SWYX: Um, and that's just a fundamental thing. Like I've done it for maybe four to five
[00:38:29] SWYX: Uh, such a more fulfilling one than something where you keep everything to yourself. Um,
[00:38:51] SWYX: And it's always the question of like, how do you grow better than the average by a
[00:39:13] SWYX: Um, but as an, as an engineer or as a. With the, with the knowledge was it was a knowledge
[00:39:34] SWYX: So if the different algorithm is instead of learning private learning public, and we learn
[00:39:57] SWYX: And sometimes you answer when people ask questions of you, um, they ask they're asking
[00:40:18] SWYX: So, uh, it's just a funny way that the internet works, but I just really like it
[00:40:33] Arit
[00:40:45] Arit
[00:41:16] SWYX: Ooh. Um, sometimes yeah, just a track record of putting up increasingly better stuff. Um, I
[00:41:41] SWYX: Um, and you have to recognize that there's a certain journalistic responsibility that
[00:42:00] SWYX: Right. Um, and that's on, that's on you, that's on me. Um, and all that. Um,
[00:42:18] SWYX: Um, and guess what, like a year from now, two years from now, you should look back on what
[00:42:38] SWYX: And I think people, um, there's a certain amount of like you can't please
[00:42:55] Frederick
[00:43:17] Frederick
[00:43:23] SWYX: Yeah. Oh, okay. I'll say, I'll say this. Some people want, uh, different levels of
[00:43:37] SWYX: Uh, but some people just want the quick hits of like, give me your top three
[00:43:57] SWYX: Um, and, and so if you set the expectations clearly, like this is my work in progress, uh,
[00:44:19] SWYX: Um, I think that that works really well. So, um, I do like having a space to experiment and
[00:44:40] SWYX: Spent in creation to the hours spent consuming. So you want higher ratios on the media that
[00:45:00] SWYX: Um, yeah, so, so that's kind of how I think about it. Like, um, there's,
[00:45:20] SWYX: Uh, I don't put a lot of thought into them. Uh, it's fine. But also, uh, you know,
[00:45:36] SWYX: So I like that.
[00:45:39] Frederick
[00:46:11] Frederick
[00:46:20] SWYX: Um, how did I come up with the ideas I wanted? So I had a dabble in. Professionally or more
[00:46:40] SWYX: Uh, so, so it's an honor to be on. Um, but also I think that podcast is a very lonely
[00:47:16] SWYX: And if you're, if you're along for the ride, if you like, what I like, uh,
[00:47:39] SWYX: I love them that people, people, people really, I mean, the audience is pretty small,
[00:48:04] SWYX: Like, um, and I love these, uh, basically what I call single-player games, uh, where that can they have the option to turn
[00:48:26] SWYX: Um, if your entire goal was to get likes and views. So if you try not to measure yourself
[00:48:43] SWYX: You're literally fulfilling your own needs. Um, and you win no matter how much people
[00:49:05] SWYX: Uh, so that's kind of how I approach my, my mixtape as well. Like I still win because I w had the chance to go over a passage within a podcast
[00:49:24] SWYX: Uh, the, the breakdown is, is a crypto podcast. There's also daily it with, uh, with extended pieces on the weekends. And then, uh, so what
[00:49:42] SWYX: And then on weekends, I'll do long-form audio sometimes of others, but most of
[00:50:02] SWYX: And also it makes it, uh, it preserves it in case the other podcast goes away.
[00:50:10] Frederick
[00:50:26] Frederick
[00:50:52] SWYX: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think people also like a commentary on podcasts, like meta-commentary. So that's what I try to do, on most episodes. Like,
[00:51:14] SWYX: Right. Like, um, and so I think it's great. So I don't, I don't know where to
[00:51:29] Frederick
[00:51:37] Arit
[00:52:04] Arit
[00:52:07] Frederick
[00:52:09] SWYX: Well, we're getting. Oh, sorry. So I have lunch, I have lunch, a YouTube version of my
[00:52:26] SWYX: Um, it was with Sunil PI, who is the, who is former react core team member. And just the
[00:52:45] SWYX: And, uh, I just got a notification that we were on the react newsletter. So that's
[00:53:01] SWYX: Yeah.
[00:53:02] Frederick
[00:53:17] SWYX: but, um, yeah. Uh, my, my side is six that I owe my Twitter is at six.
[00:53:23] SWYX: And then, um, I guess if you want to email me six at six, that I, oh, everything's
[00:53:32] Frederick
[00:53:39] SWYX: learning public, I think it changed my life has changed the lives of many, many, many,
[00:53:46] SWYX: Uh, and don't need, you don't need to credit me at all because, uh, you just take
[00:53:56] Frederick
[00:54:05] SWYX: I know. I, I, I'm still learning.
[00:54:08] SWYX: I still
[00:54:12] Arit
[00:54:14] SWYX: but it sounds, it sounds terrible.
[00:54:16] Frederick
[00:54:23] SWYX: Okay. If you, it says I insist,
[00:54:35] SWYX: um, what am I playing?
[00:54:38] Frederick
[00:54:50] SWYX: Its attitude. It's. Okay. It's
[00:55:05] Frederick
[00:55:08] SWYX: awesome. Um, but it really bothers me as a musician. No, no. Keep going. I can appreciate
[00:55:19] SWYX: Um,
[00:55:21] Frederick
[00:55:30] SWYX: it's amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing how you can speak to my heart.
[00:55:49] SWYX: I'm still learning.
[00:55:51] Arit
[00:55:57] SWYX: um, so I actually, uh, I've been advised that should not do finger-picking these finger
[00:56:20] SWYX: So I used to be a singer and a much more of a singer than I am a guitarist.
[00:56:25] Frederick
[00:56:32] SWYX: Um, uh, I have a song called nobody knows about, um, Sure. Uh, I'll look up the
[00:56:44] SWYX: Cause like I am not learning in public. Yes, exactly. Wow. Okay. It's in here. So
[00:56:55] Frederick
[00:56:59] SWYX: Uh, so yeah, that's my acapella stuff. Um, I would like to do multiple instruments, but
[00:57:09] Frederick
[00:57:11] Frederick
[00:57:12] SWYX: go ahead. Go ahead. It's not active, but um, oh man, you, you flustered me you’re, uh, this is like one of my most insecure things. Cause I
[00:57:29] Frederick
[00:57:36] Arit
[00:57:39] Arit
[00:57:45] Frederick
[00:57:49] Arit
[00:57:51] Frederick
[00:57:52] SWYX: got some more. I found I found my chords. You want to, do you want me to try it again? Do
[00:57:58] Frederick
[00:58:05] SWYX: And, uh, it didn't even put up a fight. Didn't even bake. So I found a way to let
[00:58:23] Arit
[00:58:28] SWYX: It's the rest. I don't take it. I ain't never going to
[00:58:32] Arit
[00:58:39] Arit
[00:58:39] SWYX: surrounded by every, I can see. You know, you're my saving grey, everything in
[00:58:51] Arit
[00:58:52] SWYX: me. I can feel you. Hello? Hey, won't fade away. There we go. That was awesome. Thank
[00:59:05] Frederick
[00:59:08] SWYX: Give me a second shot. Cause like the person sucks so bad. I was just like, I'm not
[00:59:13] SWYX: Like I haven't warmed up. I can play it while singing. That was my achievements. But
[00:59:18] Frederick
[00:59:21] Arit
[00:59:27] Frederick
[00:59:33] Frederick
4.9
2222 ratings
In this episode, we talk with SWYX, author, speaker, podcaster, and learning in public evangelist. We dive into his career history in finance and how he transitioned into development. We also discuss the challenges of Developer Experience, the advantages of learning in public, and lessons learned from podcasting. Additionally, we get a musical performance from SWYX himself.
Bonus: We have Software Engineer, Arit Amana as a guest co-host.
[00:00:00] Frederick Weiss: Welcome, I’m Frederick
[00:01:08] Frederick
[00:01:44] Frederick
[00:01:48] Arit
[00:01:52] Frederick
[00:02:08] Frederick
[00:02:13] SWYX: Thanks. Yeah.
[00:02:16] Frederick
[00:02:39] Frederick
[00:02:47] SWYX: Yes, sir. Seattle. Um, yeah, I went to Croatia for a conference. They shift conferences as
[00:03:05] SWYX: And so I, I went with it with all my friends who were also speakers and had a really good
[00:03:25] SWYX: So, uh, it turns out that, uh, I mean, I knew in concept about the chunk travel ban, but
[00:03:53] SWYX: Uh, so I had to go quarantine in Mexico for, for 14 days. Uh, don't really speak the
[00:04:05] Frederick
[00:04:11] SWYX: not count the matter? Yeah.
[00:04:13] SWYX: It didn't
[00:04:13] Frederick
[00:04:34] SWYX: Um, everyone's, everyone's fairly actually, I think, yeah. I would say, I'll
[00:04:56] Frederick
[00:05:15] Frederick
[00:05:19] SWYX: Lambda.
[00:05:20] Arit
[00:05:26] SWYX: Oh, is
[00:05:26] Frederick
[00:05:41] Frederick
[00:05:55] Frederick
[00:06:12] SWYX: yourself? Yeah, I'm born and raised in Singapore and came to the states for
[00:06:16] SWYX: Uh, and I spent my first career in finance where I did, uh, investment banking and hedge
[00:06:36] SWYX: Ha. It was fantastic. Uh, I had, I came out of investment banking with a 4,000 line, uh,
[00:06:55] SWYX: Uh, yeah. It's, it's on, it's on, they get up just actually, cause I, I lost it
[00:07:13] SWYX: Uh, it was very stressful, and uh, I think it's not very good for, um, just like
[00:07:34] SWYX: So whatever trade I made, whether or not it made money, the next trade, uh, would have to
[00:07:55] SWYX: Um, I just, I had enough, I just burned out. Um, and it wasn't, it wasn't like, I
[00:08:19] SWYX: You know, so, uh, but there was one thing I was good at, which is coding, uh, which was
[00:08:42] SWYX: Like in this different way, I would have to go back and punch those numbers in and get the
[00:08:59] SWYX: Um, I think actually front end developers, don't under, don't appreciate sometimes
[00:09:23] SWYX: So I tried six months of self-learning with free code camp and I didn't feel it was enough. So I enrolled in a bootcamp and
[00:09:46] SWYX: More like basically five-plus plus,
[00:10:02] Frederick
[00:10:21] Frederick
[00:10:36] SWYX: passion. I think there was a, there was passion, otherwise, I wouldn't have stuck with
[00:10:42] SWYX: Um, I w what got me into it was honestly the 1997 and 2001 financial crisis. So 1997 is not
[00:11:07] SWYX: But, but, uh, I realized that basically every other job, every other industry is inherently
[00:11:35] SWYX: And again like everyone, you know, out of a job or like overextended in your loans or
[00:12:02] SWYX: Like they, the, they say things that are, may not actually be true. And if, if you, if you
[00:12:21] SWYX: In the center of the financial transformation of assets. And I think that's a very
[00:12:42] SWYX: That's kind of the summary of it. Um, I also didn't like the people I would say
[00:13:05] SWYX: Why say was a notional. Uh, it's not actually, we didn't have a billion dollars
[00:13:26] SWYX: And yeah. I mean, I thought that that was my deal position. I spent 10 years getting there
[00:13:39] Arit
[00:13:47] Arit
[00:14:08] Arit
[00:14:25] SWYX: I speak to a lot of, uh, finance refugees who are like me, they heard my story and then,
[00:14:36] SWYX: Like, do you want me to walk away from this? Uh, and yeah. You know, and changing careers,
[00:14:56] SWYX: You should be, uh, it should be well-known in your industry by now. And to say like, ah,
[00:15:15] SWYX: Um,
[00:15:15] Frederick
[00:15:40] Frederick
[00:15:47] SWYX: Is that fair? Um, that was that's a slightly tangential thing. Uh, but I was definitely
[00:16:07] SWYX: Long-term, uh, I don't think it serves them very well sometimes because I find that
[00:16:25] SWYX: Um, but sometimes they don't know what your interests are and if your interest diverged
[00:16:42] SWYX: So. Yeah. Th this tweet is a more recent realization, nothing to do with the finance bit.
[00:16:52] Frederick
[00:17:03] Frederick
[00:17:14] SWYX: go, go forward for anyone who's considering a career change or anyone who knows a
[00:17:20] SWYX: This is exactly what I did. I took a year to do it. Um, I left my hedge fund. I joined a
[00:17:43] SWYX: And, uh, while I was there, I learned to code on decide, uh, F using free code camp.
[00:18:02] Frederick
[00:18:02] Frederick
[00:18:04] Arit
[00:18:32] SWYX: Yeah. Yeah. How long did you take to go through this whole thing?
[00:18:36] Arit
[00:18:46] SWYX: That's pretty good. That's pretty good. Yeah.
[00:18:48] Arit
[00:18:55] Arit
[00:19:16] Arit
[00:19:29] SWYX: The title is head of developer experience. It's kind of
[00:19:31] Arit
[00:19:42] SWYX: Sure. I, I, I've been asked to, uh, various versions of this car for quite recently,
[00:20:11] SWYX: So you see developer experience teams that like Spotify or slack or, um, Netflix, uh, their
[00:20:30] SWYX: So, uh, for those people, the way that I split it up is kind of. You there the three main
[00:20:48] SWYX: That's the first bit, the second bit is, uh, getting from code to deploy really, really
[00:21:11] SWYX: So, uh, that's kind of like the full software development life cycle that I really like
[00:21:28] SWYX: So, um, what we are trying to do is we're trying to serve these internal developer
[00:21:47] SWYX: So external developer experience, uh, Kind of mostly right now developer relations, which
[00:22:05] SWYX: Um, but also I think it's starting to evolve a little bit more into community
[00:22:27] SWYX: And they realized that a more vibrant community actually is, uh, is a more sustainable moat
[00:22:46] SWYX: Uh, what I mean by products is that, um, that no amount of advocacy you can do in the
[00:23:10] SWYX: Uh, here's all, here's what, here's the pain points and here's how, what
[00:23:22] SWYX: It just use your thing. And it just.
[00:23:26] Arit
[00:23:40] Arit
[00:24:20] SWYX: We don't handle it very well.
[00:24:25] SWYX: Let's just be honest, right? Like we're still figuring this out. Like, um, I, I
[00:24:47] SWYX: That's the notion essentially like we take notes, uh, when we interact with customers
[00:25:07] SWYX: So we don't do that. Uh, we do that for, you know, large names and prospective
[00:25:31] SWYX: Like, uh, from the landing page to onto the first page of the docs to the hello world. Um,
[00:25:53] SWYX: Um, and so what can we squeeze in there that will get you interested in and get you to come
[00:26:16] SWYX: Um, and then once you've decided to use the tool, how do we get you to production with
[00:26:44] SWYX: Uh, and then community-wise, I think
[00:27:07] SWYX: So a lot of things get dropped. Maybe we could do a better job of it, but also I would just
[00:27:17] Arit
[00:27:38] Arit
[00:27:43] SWYX: Yeah. Um, to some extent I've already given up and being like a full-time developer. So
[00:28:05] SWYX: So three months out of the 12 months of a year, you are on the edge team. You do not have
[00:28:20] SWYX: I think that's a really nice thing to do. Unfortunately, three months is actually quite
[00:28:37] SWYX: You're not on call for the thing that you wrote nine months ago. Like, uh, there are a
[00:29:02] SWYX: Uh, even though I'm not writing. Production code. I am determining the design of
[00:29:27] SWYX: Um, there's, there are a thousand
[00:29:47] Frederick
[00:29:56] Frederick
[00:30:01] SWYX: a few years ago. No, this is April to May,
[00:30:07] Frederick
[00:30:16] SWYX: I had two months off between uh Netlify and, and, uh, Amazon. So I, uh, I decided that I
[00:30:35] SWYX: And my blog was on learning and public has had over a million. And constantly get
[00:30:54] SWYX: So I expanded upon it. I was like, okay, I'll, I'll try to make this like a
[00:31:21] SWYX: What's what, there's a little bit of imposter syndrome giving out career advice
[00:31:37] SWYX: So, um, it's, this is not advice, not just advice from me, this advice from 1400 other
[00:31:55] SWYX: Um, I, I try not to address the like first job hunts thing because a lot of other resources
[00:32:12] SWYX: They're not resources to get you from junior to senior. And guess what? Like, most
[00:32:27] SWYX: Uh, I think it's the equivalent of having a good mentor, um, at work. And sometimes you
[00:32:44] SWYX: So they come to me and, uh, I try to help them as best as I can.
[00:32:48] Frederick
[00:33:02] SWYX: Yeah, I've actually simplified. I used to have three tiers and that was just like,
[00:33:21] SWYX: It's just super stressful. I'm, I'm sick of all the subscriptions I'm
[00:33:42] SWYX: It's a one-time fee of like, I don't know, like 40, 50. Uh, 40 bucks and, and yeah,
[00:34:10] SWYX: I have people showing up and saying, they asked me questions, and then you go away and come back seven months later and they go like, Hey,
[00:34:25] SWYX: And one of them doubled their pay, um, going from junior to senior. And, uh, I was just,
[00:34:42] SWYX: They can talk about career stuff apart from their friend network who may not be developers
[00:34:59] Frederick
[00:35:05] Frederick
[00:35:25] Frederick
[00:35:46] Frederick
[00:36:13] Frederick
[00:36:20] SWYX: Yeah, that's true. Um, I think it basically takes advantage of the fact that tech is a
[00:36:37] SWYX: You know, we open-source our code that
[00:37:03] SWYX: Um, and so I think if, I think if you do that for your own learning, you actually learn
[00:37:22] SWYX: Um, because when you start off learning, it's a, it's always a burst of inspiration
[00:37:47] SWYX: Like actually, you know, other people are in the same boat with me or they're mentoring
[00:38:09] SWYX: Um, and that's just a fundamental thing. Like I've done it for maybe four to five
[00:38:29] SWYX: Uh, such a more fulfilling one than something where you keep everything to yourself. Um,
[00:38:51] SWYX: And it's always the question of like, how do you grow better than the average by a
[00:39:13] SWYX: Um, but as an, as an engineer or as a. With the, with the knowledge was it was a knowledge
[00:39:34] SWYX: So if the different algorithm is instead of learning private learning public, and we learn
[00:39:57] SWYX: And sometimes you answer when people ask questions of you, um, they ask they're asking
[00:40:18] SWYX: So, uh, it's just a funny way that the internet works, but I just really like it
[00:40:33] Arit
[00:40:45] Arit
[00:41:16] SWYX: Ooh. Um, sometimes yeah, just a track record of putting up increasingly better stuff. Um, I
[00:41:41] SWYX: Um, and you have to recognize that there's a certain journalistic responsibility that
[00:42:00] SWYX: Right. Um, and that's on, that's on you, that's on me. Um, and all that. Um,
[00:42:18] SWYX: Um, and guess what, like a year from now, two years from now, you should look back on what
[00:42:38] SWYX: And I think people, um, there's a certain amount of like you can't please
[00:42:55] Frederick
[00:43:17] Frederick
[00:43:23] SWYX: Yeah. Oh, okay. I'll say, I'll say this. Some people want, uh, different levels of
[00:43:37] SWYX: Uh, but some people just want the quick hits of like, give me your top three
[00:43:57] SWYX: Um, and, and so if you set the expectations clearly, like this is my work in progress, uh,
[00:44:19] SWYX: Um, I think that that works really well. So, um, I do like having a space to experiment and
[00:44:40] SWYX: Spent in creation to the hours spent consuming. So you want higher ratios on the media that
[00:45:00] SWYX: Um, yeah, so, so that's kind of how I think about it. Like, um, there's,
[00:45:20] SWYX: Uh, I don't put a lot of thought into them. Uh, it's fine. But also, uh, you know,
[00:45:36] SWYX: So I like that.
[00:45:39] Frederick
[00:46:11] Frederick
[00:46:20] SWYX: Um, how did I come up with the ideas I wanted? So I had a dabble in. Professionally or more
[00:46:40] SWYX: Uh, so, so it's an honor to be on. Um, but also I think that podcast is a very lonely
[00:47:16] SWYX: And if you're, if you're along for the ride, if you like, what I like, uh,
[00:47:39] SWYX: I love them that people, people, people really, I mean, the audience is pretty small,
[00:48:04] SWYX: Like, um, and I love these, uh, basically what I call single-player games, uh, where that can they have the option to turn
[00:48:26] SWYX: Um, if your entire goal was to get likes and views. So if you try not to measure yourself
[00:48:43] SWYX: You're literally fulfilling your own needs. Um, and you win no matter how much people
[00:49:05] SWYX: Uh, so that's kind of how I approach my, my mixtape as well. Like I still win because I w had the chance to go over a passage within a podcast
[00:49:24] SWYX: Uh, the, the breakdown is, is a crypto podcast. There's also daily it with, uh, with extended pieces on the weekends. And then, uh, so what
[00:49:42] SWYX: And then on weekends, I'll do long-form audio sometimes of others, but most of
[00:50:02] SWYX: And also it makes it, uh, it preserves it in case the other podcast goes away.
[00:50:10] Frederick
[00:50:26] Frederick
[00:50:52] SWYX: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think people also like a commentary on podcasts, like meta-commentary. So that's what I try to do, on most episodes. Like,
[00:51:14] SWYX: Right. Like, um, and so I think it's great. So I don't, I don't know where to
[00:51:29] Frederick
[00:51:37] Arit
[00:52:04] Arit
[00:52:07] Frederick
[00:52:09] SWYX: Well, we're getting. Oh, sorry. So I have lunch, I have lunch, a YouTube version of my
[00:52:26] SWYX: Um, it was with Sunil PI, who is the, who is former react core team member. And just the
[00:52:45] SWYX: And, uh, I just got a notification that we were on the react newsletter. So that's
[00:53:01] SWYX: Yeah.
[00:53:02] Frederick
[00:53:17] SWYX: but, um, yeah. Uh, my, my side is six that I owe my Twitter is at six.
[00:53:23] SWYX: And then, um, I guess if you want to email me six at six, that I, oh, everything's
[00:53:32] Frederick
[00:53:39] SWYX: learning public, I think it changed my life has changed the lives of many, many, many,
[00:53:46] SWYX: Uh, and don't need, you don't need to credit me at all because, uh, you just take
[00:53:56] Frederick
[00:54:05] SWYX: I know. I, I, I'm still learning.
[00:54:08] SWYX: I still
[00:54:12] Arit
[00:54:14] SWYX: but it sounds, it sounds terrible.
[00:54:16] Frederick
[00:54:23] SWYX: Okay. If you, it says I insist,
[00:54:35] SWYX: um, what am I playing?
[00:54:38] Frederick
[00:54:50] SWYX: Its attitude. It's. Okay. It's
[00:55:05] Frederick
[00:55:08] SWYX: awesome. Um, but it really bothers me as a musician. No, no. Keep going. I can appreciate
[00:55:19] SWYX: Um,
[00:55:21] Frederick
[00:55:30] SWYX: it's amazing. It's amazing. It's amazing how you can speak to my heart.
[00:55:49] SWYX: I'm still learning.
[00:55:51] Arit
[00:55:57] SWYX: um, so I actually, uh, I've been advised that should not do finger-picking these finger
[00:56:20] SWYX: So I used to be a singer and a much more of a singer than I am a guitarist.
[00:56:25] Frederick
[00:56:32] SWYX: Um, uh, I have a song called nobody knows about, um, Sure. Uh, I'll look up the
[00:56:44] SWYX: Cause like I am not learning in public. Yes, exactly. Wow. Okay. It's in here. So
[00:56:55] Frederick
[00:56:59] SWYX: Uh, so yeah, that's my acapella stuff. Um, I would like to do multiple instruments, but
[00:57:09] Frederick
[00:57:11] Frederick
[00:57:12] SWYX: go ahead. Go ahead. It's not active, but um, oh man, you, you flustered me you’re, uh, this is like one of my most insecure things. Cause I
[00:57:29] Frederick
[00:57:36] Arit
[00:57:39] Arit
[00:57:45] Frederick
[00:57:49] Arit
[00:57:51] Frederick
[00:57:52] SWYX: got some more. I found I found my chords. You want to, do you want me to try it again? Do
[00:57:58] Frederick
[00:58:05] SWYX: And, uh, it didn't even put up a fight. Didn't even bake. So I found a way to let
[00:58:23] Arit
[00:58:28] SWYX: It's the rest. I don't take it. I ain't never going to
[00:58:32] Arit
[00:58:39] Arit
[00:58:39] SWYX: surrounded by every, I can see. You know, you're my saving grey, everything in
[00:58:51] Arit
[00:58:52] SWYX: me. I can feel you. Hello? Hey, won't fade away. There we go. That was awesome. Thank
[00:59:05] Frederick
[00:59:08] SWYX: Give me a second shot. Cause like the person sucks so bad. I was just like, I'm not
[00:59:13] SWYX: Like I haven't warmed up. I can play it while singing. That was my achievements. But
[00:59:18] Frederick
[00:59:21] Arit
[00:59:27] Frederick
[00:59:33] Frederick