Dirk and David are joined by Pam Punzalan, known for her work on personal projects such as Navthem's End and A Rising Tide, as well as commissioned pieces for Dungeons and Dragons, Blades in the Dark, and Starfinder. Together, the trio discusses the differences between producing hired work and indie projects, as well as the importance of RPGSEA. Topics include how her cultural background affects her work, queerness and race as themes, the processes surrounding commissioned games and working with an editor, tactics games, and being a working TTRPG designer.