Original title: Baptisms for the Dead: Hell(?), Trichotomy, and the Celestials

In this episode, Brendon and Skyler discuss the thirty-seventh lesson in the LDS Come, Follow Me sunday school manual. This week (September 4-10) is titled “God Is Not the Author of Confusion, but of Peace” and covers 1 Corinthians 14-16. 

We invite you to worship with us on any Sunday - either at First Baptist Church of Provo or Christ Presbyterian Church in Magna. We welcome visitors!  

Pastor Brendon's Colossians series can be found here and/or here. 

Seminary Manual: here, here and here 

JST 1 Cor. 15; JSH 1.7-8; Abraham 3.19-25 

 D&C 19; 29; 63.50; 76; 88; 93; 101; 124; 131; 132; 133 

1 Ne 15.35; 2 Ne 28.21-23; Mosiah 3.38-39; Alma 1.3-4, 5, 34.32-35, 41; 3 Ne. 27.11-17 

Gospel Principles  

Preach My Gospel: A Guide to Missionary Service (Basically, the textbook for LDS missionaries) 

Achieving a Celestial Marriage (Student Manual); In a dialogue format underneath the headings "God became God by Obedience to Law" and then "Through Obedience to Law We can Become Like Our Father In Heaven":

• "...I can be a god only if I act like God."
• "Exactly right. Can you imagine the state of the universe if imperfect gods were allowed to spawn their imperfections throughout space, if beings who did not have law under their subjection were free to create worlds?" (p. 5)

“The Atonement” (Russell Nelson) 

“Our Mission of Saving”; “Rejoice in this Great Era of Temple Building” (Gordon Hinckley) 

“Baptisms for the Dead” (Gospel Topics); “Three Facts about Temple Baptisms” by Leah Barton 

The New Testament Made Easier by David Ridges 

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith ; Words of Joseph Smith 

• “On 10 August 1840 Seymour Brunson, member of the Nauvoo High Council, died in Nauvoo. The Prophet took the occasion of his funeral, on 15 August 1840 to deliver the first discourse on the doctrine of baptism for the dead (See HC, 4.231)…He also said the apostle was talking to a people who understood baptism for the dead, for it was practiced among them. He went on to say that people could now act for their friends who had departed this life, and that the plan of salvation was calculated to save all who were willing to obey the requirements of the law of God.” (WJS, p. 49) 
• “When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the Gospel – you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” (TPJS, p. 348) 
• “The Bible supports the doctrine [of baptism for the dead]. If there is one word of the Lord that supports the doctrine, it is enough to make it true doctrine. Again, if we baptize a man in the name of the Father, [and] of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost for the remission of sins, it is just as much our privilege to act as an agent and be baptized for the remission of sins for and in behalf of our dead kindred who have not heard the gospel or fullness of it.” (WJS, pp. 109-110) 
• “Flesh and blood cannot go there, but flesh and bones, quickened by the Spirit of God, can...Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, or the kingdom that God inherits and inhabits, but the flesh without the blood, and the Spirit of God flowing in the veins instead of the blood. For blood is the part of the body that causes corruption. Therefore, we must be changed in the twinkle of an eye, or have to lay down these tabernacles and [let] the blood vanish away. Therefore, Jesus Christ left his blood to atone for the sins of the world, that he might ascend into the presence of the Father...The blood is the corruptible part of the tabernacles. The resurrection is devised to take away corruption and make man perfect, or in the glory [in] which he was created. For the body is sown in corruption and raised in incorruption. Then we will be able to go into the presence of God.” (WJS, p. 255, 370-371) 

Joseph Smith: here and here 

 History of the Church (vol.5), quoting Joseph Smith: 

• Under the heading “Salvation Through Knowledge”: “Add to your faith knowledge, etc. The principle of knowledge is the principle of salvation. This principle can be comprehended by the faithful and diligent; and every one that does not obtain knowledge sufficient to be saved will be condemned. The principle of salvation is given us through the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Salvation is nothing more nor less than to triumph over all our enemies and put them under our feet. And when we have power to put all enemies under our feet in this world, and a knowledge to triumph over all evil spirits in the world to come, then we are saved, as in the case of Jesus, who was to reign until He had put all enemies under His feet, and the last enemy was death. Perhaps there are principles here that few men have thought of. No person can have this salvation except through a tabernacle.” (p. 387-388) 
• “Paul ascended into the third heavens, and he could understand the three principal rounds of Jacob’s ladder – the telestial, the terrestrial, and the celestial glories or kingdoms, where Paul saw and heard things which were not lawful for him to utter. I could explain a hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them.” (p. 402; Note that Smith, and a few of his apologists try to connect what Smith adds to the text of 1 Cor. 15 – namely, telestial – to the third heaven Paul mentions in 2 Cor. 12.2; yet Joseph Smith also stated: “Paul saw the third heaven, and I more.” TPJS, p. 301) 
• “I see no faults in the Church, and therefore let me be resurrected with the Saints, whether I ascend to heaven or descend to hell, or go to any other place. And if we go to hell, we will turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it. Where this people are, there is good society. What do we care where we are, if the society be good?” (p. 517) 

The LDS First Presidency has stated that: “To the Latter-day Saints, salvation itself, under the Atonement of Christ, is a process of education.” (Improvement Era, May 1907) cited on pg. 128 of Statements of the LDS First Presidency: A Topical Compendium (compiled by Gary Bergera); also: 

• “This life is part of eternity. This is one stage of our eternal lives. When we die, we will go on to purposeful, active, challenging living. The life on the other side of the veil will be somewhat like the life here. If we have been clean and decent and good here, we will go on in that same spirit. If we have been rascals, we will go in that same spirit.” (Gordon B. Hinckley. “First Presidency Message”, Ensign, Apr. 2002; p. 112) 
• “Even before the fall of Adam, which ushered death in this world, our Heavenly Father had prepared a place for the spirits who would eventually depart this mortal life. At the time of Jesus’ death, the spirit world was occupied by hosts of our Father’s children who had died – from Adam’s posterity to the death of Jesus – both the righteous and wicked. There were two grand divisions in the world of spirits. Spirits of the righteous (the just) had gone to paradise, a state of happiness, peace, and restful work. The spirits of the wicked (the unjust) had gone to prison, a state of darkness and misery (see Alma 40:12-15). Jesus went only to the righteous – paradise.” (Ezra Taft Benson, “First Presidency Message”, Ensign, Apr. 1993; p. 112) 
• “Say to brothers Hulet, and to all others, that the Lord never authorized them to say that the devil, his angels or the sons of perdition, should ever be restored; for their state of destiny was not revealed to man, is not revealed, nor ever shall be revealed, save to those who are made partakers thereof; consequently those who teach this doctrine have not received it of the Spirit of the Lord.” (Statement, June 25, 1833; p. 428) 

A Rational Theology (esp. Chapter 28: Work For the Dead); Evidences and Reconciliation by John A. Widtsoe: “President Brigham Young suggested that the ultimate punishment of the sons of perdition may be that they, having their spiritual bodies disorganized, must start over again, must begin anew the long journey of existence, repeating the steps that they took in the eternities before the Great Council was held. That would be punishment indeed!” (p. 266) 

• Another quote by LDS apostle Widtsoe worth including: “All others, who are not classed as sons of perdition, will be ‘redeemed in the due time of the Lord’, that is, the will all be saved. The meanest sinner will find some place in the heavenly realm...In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is no hell. All will find a measure of salvation,...The gospel of Jesus Christ has no hell in the old proverbial sense.” (Joseph Smith – Seeker After Truth, pp.177-178) 

Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie 

Understanding Paul by Richard Lloyd Anderson: “The gift is given, bringing the joy of gratitude. But what about the responsibilities of gratitude? Does one ever receive a gift without moral obligation? Does the Christian remain the polite child expressing verbal thanks only, or does he develop the maturity to show gratitude in action?” (p. 181); also see Appendix C.

Paul’s First Epistle to the Corinthians by Richard Draper and Michael Rhodes; even in a commentary on 1 Corinthians, you still find this kind of material when commenting on Paul’s(?) doctrine of the resurrection: “When this doctrine is properly understood and believed, death is put in its proper perspective. It is but a passage into the next phase of existence. The core belief of the Latter-day Saints was declared by President Lorenzo Snow who said, ‘As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be.’ Thus, the brethren place emphasis on the idea that God designed this mortal experience to be but a temporary but a necessary step into eternity and godhood.” (pp.70-71) 

“Paul Among the Prophets: Obtaining a Crown” by Michael Middleton (found in The Apostle Paul: His Life and Ministry - The 23d Annual Sidney B. Sperry Symposium): “And indeed Paul addressed many subjects; he has not left those who read his writings ignorant of some of the most fundamental and glorious truths of the Restoration: the three degrees of glory (1 Corinthians 15:40-47), the teaching power of the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 2:10-16), the purpose and continuity of the family unit (1 Corinthians 11:11), and baptism for the dead (1 Corinthians 15:29). He taught in plainness these and a host of other essential and exalting doctrines. The lack of vibrato with which he presented these concepts suggests that they were common knowledge to the Saints of his day. Many of these precious truths were distorted after Paul’s death but have been restored to their former fulness by latter-day revelation.” (pp. 121-122) 

Mormonism and Early Christianity by Hugh Nibley (esp. Ch. 4: “Baptism for the Dead in Ancient Times”) 

A Gospel Trilogy by W. Cleon Skousen 

Brigham Young: JD 1.118; 1.275; 1.312; 2.124; 3.277; 3.375; 4.31-32; 6.293 ; 7.2-3; 7.287; 8.35;8.59-61 ; 8.154-155; 8.222; 9.149; 15.137 

John Taylor: JD 13.14 

Wilford Woodruff: JD 6.120; 23.125-126 

Orson Pratt: JD 1.56-57; 1.332-333; 7.89; 15.51-52; 16.297, 16.328; 20.70 

Heber C. Kimball: JD 1.161; 1.355-357; 3.109; 4.223; 4.329; 5.95; 6.63 

George A. Smith: JD 15.99 

“Who will be saved in the celestial kingdom of God? They that have the oracles of truth and obey them. Where will the rest go? Into kingdoms that God has and will prepare for them and there are millions of such kingdoms. There is as many degrees of glory as there are degrees of capacity and to them will be meted out according to their faith, and goodness and the truth that abides in them and according to the light God has imparted to them.” (The Essential Brigham Young, pp.139-140) 

"Do we know what hell is? And where hell is? Who can point it out? In many instances where the apostles have been speaking and likewise Jesus in his communications to the people this earth is compared to hell. Well it is in one sense. If we find out really that hell is anything more or less than this earth, this wicked world, we shall find that it is banishment from the society and presence of Holy beings." (The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, Vol. 1, pg. 1103)

Young stated in a "Discourse on Marriage" that women "are not accountable for the sins that are in the world." This is one of the places where the idea that there women cannot become "sons of perdition".

As an interesting example of a Mormon debate – David Ridges (cited above) has this to say under 15.4: “Just a quick comment about ‘rose again’ in verse 4, above. Once in a while, a student will see the word ‘again’ and start wondering if it means that Jesus had been resurrected previously on other earths and thus, was being resurrected ‘again’ here on our earth, after performing an atonement for us. Furthermore, some start wondering if Jesus gets born, crucified, and resurrected over and over on each of Father’s worlds. This is not true. The word ‘again’ simply means that Jesus became alive ‘again’ through the process of resurrection. We know from D&C 76.24, that the Atonement, which Jesus performed on our earth, works for all other worlds he has created or will create for the Father. He will never die again. Neither will we, once we have been resurrected – see Hebrews 9.27” 

• One can tell a lot about the beliefs of a community by their debates. The debate over the full divinity of Christ (leading to the Council of Nicaea) was a fundamentally monotheistic debate; and a debate over particulars within a framework doesn’t mean that the framework itself is debatable. This type of question that Ridges (who would know!) finds as enough of a “problem” to address in writing in this book helps to show the Mormon framework around both one who would take his view, and even a Mormon who would not take his view. Why Hebrews should settle the debate (in Ridges’ mind) is not stated – given how expendable the Bible is on any other Mormon doctrinal position. Also, watch for this double-standard: notice how Christian debates disprove any sort of Christian unity or any sort of truth claim within Christianity – but Mormon debates don’t do the same relative to their own unity and truth claims. 

Relevant news article

"'What Has Become of Our Fathers?' Baptism for the Dead at Nauvoo" by M. Guy Bishop

“An Ambivalent Rejection: Baptism for the Dead and the Reorganized Church Experience” by Roger Launius 

“Baptism for the Dead: Comparing RLDS and LDS Perspectives” (Grant Underwood) 

“’Complexity and Richness’: Reenvisioning the Middle Ages for Mormon Historical Narratives” by Spencer Young 

Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? by Sandra and Jerald Tanner 

The Mormon Jesus by John Turner 

An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins by Grant Palmer 

“This Is My Doctrine”: The Development of Mormon Theology by Charles Harrell 

1 Corinthians (ZECNT) by Paul Gardner  

Paul Through Mediterranean Eyes by Kenneth Bailey  

St. Paul’s Corinth: Texts and Archaeology by Jerome Murphy-O'Connor 

The Cross Before Constantine by Bruce Longenecker 

Paul’s Two-Age Construction and Apologetics by William Dennison  

Perspectives on Pentecost by Richard B. Gaffin  

The Pauline Eschatology by Geerhardus Vos  

Biblical Words and Their Meaning by Moises Silva 

Exegetical Fallacies by D.A. Carson 

“Living Rewards for Dead Apostles: ‘Baptised for the Dead’ in 1 Corinthians 15.29” by James Patrick 

“Trichotomy: A Beachhead for Gnostic Influences” by Kim Riddlebarger 

A footnote worth including by scholar Joachim Jeremias: "...much more reserve of judgment will have to exercised in ascribing an early date to Hellenistic influences on Christian baptismal doctrine and practice than is common now. Since 1 Cor. 15.29 is cited as the most striking evidence of Hellenistic influence on the baptismal practice in the Pauline churches, it may be mentioned that the interpretation of this passage as referring to vicarious baptism for persons who died unbaptized has, in my opinion, been refuted...M. Raeder...has convincingly shown that in the phrase [cites the Greek of vs. 29] (a) the [huper] has a final sense ('for the sake of so-and-so'), and (b) the the term [oy nekron] refers to dead Christians. We must accordingly translate 'What then are those people to do, who submit to baptism for the sake of the dead (i.e.) in order to be reunited in the resurrection with their dead relatives or friends who have received Christian baptism)?'...Take, for instance, a case in which a young woman belonging to the Church, and engaged to be married, died, and whose heathen bridegroom had himself baptized 'for her sake' - that is, in order to be united with her in the resurrection. This interpretation fits excellently into the context of the apologetic reflections of 1 Cor. 15.12-19, which Paul, after the digression of vv. 20-28, resumes in vv. 29-34. The apostle had said in v. 18 that if Christ were not risen 'they who are kinsmen (husbands, wives, lovers), who had themselves baptized in order to be united with them in the resurrection...If this interpretation is correct, then 'vicarious baptism' is to be deleted from the vocabulary of New Testament exegesis. The superstitious misuse of representative baptism for the dead, which was practiced in heretical circles since the end of the second century, did not arise about AD 50 in Corinth, only to be tolerated in silence by Paul, but arose from a gross misunderstanding of the (certainly very telegraphic) formulation of 1 Cor. 15.29." (IBITFFC, pp. 36-37)