Today I'm joined by Australian First Nations artist BLAK DOUGLAS to discuss his highly political art, censorship in the Australian arts with regard to speaking out about Palestine, and the legacy of colonization in Australia, his identity, and his work. Blak has won numerous major prizes, including the Archibald Prize (2022), and his paintings hang on most major museum walls in the country where his ancestors have been custodians of the land for tens of thousands of years before and after Europeans arrived.

A BONUS EPISODE is also available. In it, Blak and I discussing a seminal piece of art from his life – the 1966 Australian $1 banknote, which featured a design that brazenly stole the bark paintings of Aboriginal artist David Malangi.

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bonus-blak-douglas-talks-the-1966-australian-%241-banknote/id1807437928?i=1000716281280

Substack: https://colehaddon.substack.com/p/bonus-episode-blak-douglas-talks?utm_source=publication-search

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/7M0M4UqKmcsSzOaRncTFWA?si=2a0d8c2db41b4196

Blak and I discuss the following and much more:

• His brutally candid thoughts about Australia’s colonial history and its impact on his identity and artistic journey
• His art as protest and education
• His early life growing up, the son of an Aboriginal father and white mother, in a white monoculture still reckoning with its White Only Policy
• The impact of early Aboriginal artistic mentors and the pivotal role they played in his creative life, but also his desire to embrace his Aboriginal identity
• Why he ultimately adopted the name "Blak Douglas"
• Australia’s art scene and the challenges that face artists – especially Aboriginal artists – who speak out on issues that a small group of gallery gatekeepers don’t agree with (meaning: the challenges to free speech in the Australian arts today)

LINKS:

• Learn more about Blak and his work at his website: https://blakdouglas.com.au/about/
• Follow Blak at Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/blakdouglas/
• Read about the Welcome to Country acknowledgment of Australia, which is discussed in this episode: https://www.reconciliation.org.au/reconciliation/acknowledgement-of-country-and-welcome-to-country/

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Not up for a paid subscription but appreciate the work that’s gone into making this podcast happen? You can “buy me a coffee” ⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://buymeacoffee.com/colehaddon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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EMAIL

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5AM StoryTalk would like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Djarra people of the Kulin Nation and pay respects to Elders past and present.

This podcast's music is by ⁠⁠Cary Brothers⁠⁠. ⁠⁠https://www.carybrothers.com/⁠

Australian First Nations artist BLAK DOUGLAS — one of the most fearless voices in the contemporary Australian art world – returns for a bonus episode to discuss a seminal artwork from his life – the 1966 AUSTRALIAN $1 BANKNOTE. The banknote featured a design that brazenly stole the bark paintings of Aboriginal artist David Malangi, which led to the first copyright case in which an Aboriginal artist successfully claimed rights to his own work. This is a banger of an art history lesson.

This bonus episode was released half a year earlier than it became available on Spotify. To get access to all bonus episodes like this one upon initial release, become a paid subscriber to 5AM StoryTalk at Apple or Substack:

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5am-storytalk/id1807437928

Substack: https://colehaddon.substack.com/

Be sure to listen to the first part of my chat with Blak, too: https://pod.link/1807437928/episode/NzQxMjIxNTMtNTEyZi00MWMwLTg5YWItMzIyYzE4ODY4ZjY2?view=apps&sort=popularity

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Blak and I discuss the following and much more:

• Historical Context: The $1 note was released in 1966, during a time when Aboriginal peoples were not yet recognized as citizens in Australia; it featured a beautiful Aboriginal artwork on one side and Queen Elizabeth II on the other, showcasing a complex juxtaposition of cultures
• How David Malangi’s bark art was “misappropriated” by the Australian Reserve Bank
• Malangi’s legal battle for recognition of his copyright – leading to a landmark victory for Australian artists’ rights
• Blak’s thoughts on being labeled a First Nations, Indigenous Australian, or Aboriginal artist rather than just an artist
• The ongoing struggles of contemporary First Nations artists to break free from stereotypical representations of their culture
• How Aboriginal art has been commercialized, sometimes at the expense of the artist and their culture
• The impact of Malangi’s copyright victory on Blak and his own creative journey

LINKS

• Learn more about the theft of David Malangi’s art, which led to the first copyright case in which an Aboriginal artist successfully claimed rights to his own work, here: https://theconversation.com/dollar-dave-and-the-reserve-bank-a-tale-of-art-theft-and-human-rights-56593
• Learn more about Blak and his work at his website: https://blakdouglas.com.au/about/
• Follow Blak at Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/blakdouglas/

SUBSCRIBE TO THE '5AM STORYTALK NEWSLETTER'

⁠⁠https://colehaddon.substack.com/⁠⁠

You'll gain access to both the 5AM StoryTalk newsletter and all episodes of this podcast – including exclusive bonus episodes in which my guests discuss seminal pieces of art from their lives. Ask questions in the comments section there, too!

SUBSCRIBE TO THE '5AM STORYTALK PODCAST' AT APPLE

⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5am-storytalk/id1807437928⁠⁠

A paid subscription at Apple will get you access to all of my bonus episodes in which my guests return to break down a seminal artwork from their lives.

TIP JAR

Not up for a paid subscription but appreciate the work that’s gone into making this podcast happen? You can “buy me a coffee” ⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://buymeacoffee.com/colehaddon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

SOCIAL MEDIA

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EMAIL

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5AM StoryTalk would like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Djarra people of the Kulin Nation and pay respects to Elders past and present.

This podcast's music is by ⁠⁠Cary Brothers⁠⁠. ⁠⁠https://www.carybrothers.com/⁠

Let’s reconsider the Prequel and Original STAR WARS trilogies through the lens of “ANDOR” and what it has to say about the 21st century society, our blind devotion to ancient religions and their ideas of good and evil, and why the Jedi maybe (probably) had it coming.

This is going to be a provocative conversation, but I believe we can better understand who we are as a culture and as individuals by constantly interrogating our most closely held beliefs about art and sacred cows like Star Wars. For screenwriters, this will be a lot to learn about how to better deconstruct the work of others to improve your own craft.

Other Reading:

• Read “How 'Andor' Blows Up Star Wars' Obsession With Moral Absolutism” instead: https://colehaddon.substack.com/p/how-andor-blows-up-star-wars-obsession
• Read “How Tony Gilroy Made 'Andor' One of the Best Series on TV”: https://colehaddon.substack.com/p/on-screenwriting-how-tony-gilroy?utm_source=publication-search
• Read “Luke Skywalker Isn't the Hero You Want Him to Be”: https://colehaddon.substack.com/p/luke-skywalker-isnt-the-hero-you?utm_source=publication-search

SUBSCRIBE TO THE '5AM STORYTALK NEWSLETTER'

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You'll gain access to both the 5AM StoryTalk newsletter and all episodes of this podcast – including exclusive bonus episodes in which my guests discuss seminal pieces of art from their lives. Ask questions in the comments section there, too!

SUBSCRIBE TO THE '5AM STORYTALK PODCAST' AT APPLE

⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5am-storytalk/id1807437928⁠⁠

A paid subscription at Apple will get you access to all of my bonus episodes in which my guests return to break down a seminal artwork from their lives.

TIP JAR

Not up for a paid subscription but appreciate the work that’s gone into making this podcast happen? You can “buy me a coffee” ⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://buymeacoffee.com/colehaddon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://bsky.app/profile/colehaddon.bsky.social⁠⁠⁠

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EMAIL

⁠[email protected]

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5AM StoryTalk would like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Djarra people of the Kulin Nation and pay respects to Elders past and present.

This podcast's music is by ⁠⁠Cary Brothers⁠⁠. ⁠⁠https://www.carybrothers.com/⁠

Today I'm joined by British screenwriter JOE BARTON – creator of TV series such as 'Giri/Haji', 'The Lazarus Project', 'Black Doves', and, most recently, 'Amadeus'. We’re going to dissect why I love his work so much – revealing creative DNA from Steven Spielberg to “The West Wing”.

Joe and I discuss the following and much more:

• The creative and cultural influences on his work, examining how Steven Spielberg and the British approach to storytelling synthetized in his own creative process
• How he crafts stories that sit between reality and fantasy with a light-hearted yet serious tone – even embracing camp
• The unique genesis of "Black Doves" and its serendipitous, almost unbelievably quick route to a green light from Netflix
• How he developed the central relationship of “Black Doves” by subverting our expectations of the “buddy dynamic” of action-thriller stories
• The difficulty of prioritizing “small pleasures” as a freelance artist
• The evolution of TV storytelling and the possibility of a shift away from bleak, unlikable – albeit compelling characters – toward characters and worlds you look forward to spending time with/in
• Jaws, “The West Wing”, Wes Anderson, and much more

BONUS EPISODE

A bonus ep is available in which Joe discusses a seminal piece of art from his life: Curtis Hanson’s 2000 film WONDER BOYS, an adaptation of Michael Chabon’s novel of the same name.

You can listen to this bonus chat at Apple, Spotify, and Substack:

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bonus-joe-barton-talks-wonder-boys/id1807437928?i=1000714144653

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0eqCb6yafq2IJ29b2caJGt?si=4d70106a88a64c7b

Substack: https://colehaddon.substack.com/p/bonus-episode-joe-barton-talks-wonder?utm_source=publication-search

Become a paid supporter of this podcast at Apple or Substack and you'll get access to all bonus episodes five to six months earlier than at Spotify.

LINKS

• Learn more about Joe at Wikipedia ⁠here⁠
• Watch the “Black Doves” ⁠trailer⁠
• Watch “The Lazarus Project” ⁠trailer⁠
• Watch the “Giri/Haji” ⁠trailer⁠

SUBSCRIBE TO THE '5AM STORYTALK NEWSLETTER'

⁠⁠https://colehaddon.substack.com/⁠⁠

You'll gain access to both the 5AM StoryTalk newsletter and all episodes of this podcast – including exclusive bonus episodes in which my guests discuss seminal pieces of art from their lives. Ask questions in the comments section there, too!

SUBSCRIBE TO THE '5AM STORYTALK PODCAST' AT APPLE

⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5am-storytalk/id1807437928⁠⁠

A paid subscription at Apple will get you access to all of my bonus episodes in which my guests return to break down a seminal artwork from their lives.

TIP JAR

Not up for a paid subscription but appreciate the work that’s gone into making this podcast happen? You can “buy me a coffee” ⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://buymeacoffee.com/colehaddon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

SOCIAL MEDIA

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⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://bsky.app/profile/colehaddon.bsky.social⁠⁠⁠

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EMAIL

⁠[email protected]

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5AM StoryTalk would like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Djarra people of the Kulin Nation and pay respects to Elders past and present.

This podcast's music is by ⁠⁠Cary Brothers⁠⁠. ⁠⁠https://www.carybrothers.com/⁠⁠

JOE BARTON – creator of TV series such as 'Black Doves', 'Giri/Haji', 'The Lazarus Project', and the upcoming 'Amadeus' – returns to discuss a seminal piece of art from his life: Curtis Hanson’s 2000 film WONDER BOYS, which was adapted from Michael Chabon’s 1995 novel of the same name.

This bonus episode was released half a year earlier than it became available on Spotify. To get access to all bonus episodes like this one upon initial release, become a paid subscriber to 5AM StoryTalk at Apple or Substack:

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5am-storytalk/id1807437928

Substack: https://colehaddon.substack.com/

Be sure to listen to the first part of my chat with Joe, too: https://pod.link/1807437928/episode/OGZjNThlNzctZmIwZC00NTU2LThlMjktMDc1ZmUwNTMzZmZi?view=apps&sort=popularity

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Joe and I discuss the following and much more:

• How Wonder Boys – both the novel and the film – significantly impacted our lives
• The complexity of the characters, which Joe describes as “fuckups” the likes of which he had never encountered on screen before, and yet these characters are also capable of such surprising empathy and kindness
• The enigma of the character of James Leer, played brilliantly by Tobey Maguire in the film, which Joe describes as an evolving narrative that reflects the film and novel’s central theme of storytelling
• The resonance of Wonder Boys for writers of any kind who understand the trials and tribulations of the creative process
• Michael Chabon's ability to weave genre elements into literary storytelling and the freedom that granted me, in particular, to do the same in my own work
• Our extremely embarrassing fan encounters with Chabon

LINKS

• Watch the trailer to Wonder Boys here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO_sXk-lR7A
• Learn more about the Wonder Boys film here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Boys_(film)
• Learn more about the Wonder Boys novel here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Boys
• Learn more about Joe BARTON here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Barton_(screenwriter)

SUBSCRIBE TO THE '5AM STORYTALK NEWSLETTER'

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You'll gain access to both the 5AM StoryTalk newsletter and all episodes of this podcast – including exclusive bonus episodes in which my guests discuss seminal pieces of art from their lives. Ask questions in the comments section there, too!

SUBSCRIBE TO THE '5AM STORYTALK PODCAST' AT APPLE

⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5am-storytalk/id1807437928⁠⁠

A paid subscription at Apple will get you access to all of my bonus episodes in which my guests return to break down a seminal artwork from their lives.

TIP JAR

Not up for a paid subscription but appreciate the work that’s gone into making this podcast happen? You can “buy me a coffee” ⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://buymeacoffee.com/colehaddon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

SOCIAL MEDIA

Follow Cole/5AM StoryTalk at…

⁠⁠5AM StoryTalk @ Instagram⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/5amstorytalkpodcast/⁠⁠⁠

Cole Haddon @ Instagram⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/colehaddonwashere/⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://bsky.app/profile/colehaddon.bsky.social⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.threads.com/Colehaddonwashere⁠⁠⁠

EMAIL

⁠[email protected]

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5AM StoryTalk would like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Djarra people of the Kulin Nation and pay respects to Elders past and present.

This podcast's music is by ⁠⁠Cary Brothers⁠⁠. ⁠⁠https://www.carybrothers.com/⁠⁠

I'm joined by epidemiologist DR. ANNE RIMOIN, who will be discussing her scientific work and art’s role in our relationship to disease, pandemic potential viruses like H151 (avian flu), and what if anything we learned from COVID. She’s a Professor of Epidemiology at the UCLA Fielding School of Public Health where she is also the Gordon-Levin Endowed Chair in Infectious Diseases and Public Health and the director of the Center for Global and Immigrant Health.

We discuss the following and much more:

• The challenges of being a scientist in America in 2025
• Her journey from record company intern to the Peace Corps to leading epidemiologist
• Her lifelong love affair with Africa, especially Congo, and her years fighting disease there
• How the inter-cultural communication skills she learned in Benin and, later, Congo, inform her role as a science communicator today – but also, what this skill reveals about the failure of many, especially on the Left, to communicate effectively
• The profound risk of cutting federal funding for disease prevention when the H151 virus, also known as avian flu, is knocking on our door
• What COVID taught her was the real threat to society in the inevitable event of another pandemic (spoiler: the answer is not “dying from virulent disease”)
• Whether a Black Plague-like pandemic – or even one as lethal as the one in Emily St. John Mandel’s novel Station Eleven – could occur in the 21st century given our scientific achievements
• The portrayal of pandemics in media, or the lack thereof with regard to COVID

BONUS EPISODE

A bonus ep is available in which Anne discusses a seminal piece of art from her life: Ricardo Lemvo and Makina Loca’s song “E MOYO” from their 2014 album La Rumba SoYo. Anne has a unique relationship to the song, as you’ll find. She'll continue discussing her experiences as a scientist in Congo, including how she acquired a Congolese name that translates to “The Woman Who Never Gives Up”.

You can listen to this bonus chat at Apple, Spotify, and Substack:

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5am-storytalk/id1807437928?i=1000710646191

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/7o2ZImXOZuozSjwzDN5lCl?si=bfb71c3c080b48eb

Substack: https://colehaddon.substack.com/p/bonus-podcast-epidemiologist-anne?utm_source=publication-search

Become a paid supporter of this podcast at Apple or Substack and you'll get access to all bonus episodes five to six months earlier than at Spotify.

SUBSCRIBE TO THE '5AM STORYTALK NEWSLETTER'

⁠⁠https://colehaddon.substack.com/⁠⁠

You'll gain access to both the 5AM StoryTalk newsletter and all episodes of this podcast – including exclusive bonus episodes in which my guests discuss seminal pieces of art from their lives. Ask questions in the comments section there, too!

SUBSCRIBE TO THE '5AM STORYTALK PODCAST' AT APPLE

⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5am-storytalk/id1807437928⁠⁠

A paid subscription at Apple will get you access to all of my bonus episodes in which my guests return to break down a seminal artwork from their lives.

TIP JAR

Not up for a paid subscription but appreciate the work that’s gone into making this podcast happen? You can “buy me a coffee” ⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://buymeacoffee.com/colehaddon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

SOCIAL MEDIA

Follow Cole/5AM StoryTalk at…

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Cole Haddon @ Instagram⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/colehaddonwashere/⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://bsky.app/profile/colehaddon.bsky.social⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.threads.com/Colehaddonwashere⁠⁠⁠

EMAIL

⁠[email protected]

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5AM StoryTalk would like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Djarra people of the Kulin Nation and pay respects to Elders past and present.

This podcast's music is by ⁠⁠Cary Brothers⁠⁠. ⁠⁠https://www.carybrothers.com/⁠⁠

DR. ANNE RIMOIN — professor of Epidemiology at the UCLA Fielding School of Public Health director of the university’s Center for Global and Immigrant Health – returns for some more 5AM StoryTalk. In this bonus episode, she discusses a foundational piece of art from her life: Ricardo Lemvo and Makina Loca’s song “E MOYO” from their 2014 album La Rumba SoYo.

Anne has a unique relationship to the song, as you’ll find. She'll continue discussing her experiences as a scientist in Congo, including how she acquired a Congolese name that translates to “The Woman Who Never Gives Up”.

This bonus episode was released half a year earlier than it became available on Spotify. To get access to all bonus episodes like this one upon initial release, become a paid subscriber to 5AM StoryTalk at Apple or Substack:

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5am-storytalk/id1807437928

Substack: https://colehaddon.substack.com/

Be sure to listen to the first part of my chat with Anne, too: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dr-anne-rimoin-epidemiologist-bird-flu-covid-pandemics/id1807437928?i=1000710487742

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Anne and I will discuss (amongst other things):

• Her very personal connection to “E Moyo”, a song that smashes together Congolese and Afro-Cuban styles
• The significance between Ricardo Lemvo’s “shoutout” to Anne in the song
• How the music of Congo has helped shape part of Anne’s identity and even impacted her professional journey
• The origins of her Congolese name
• More anecdotes about her time in Congo, including the rescue of a baby bonobo
• The intense power of language in Congo and how that translates to “E Moyo” (and, I’d suggest, culture in general)
• Her ongoing work in and relationship to Congo

SUBSCRIBE TO THE '5AM STORYTALK NEWSLETTER'

https://colehaddon.substack.com/

You'll gain access to both the 5AM StoryTalk newsletter and all episodes of this podcast – including exclusive bonus episodes in which my guests discuss seminal pieces of art from their lives. Ask questions in the comments section there, too!

SUBSCRIBE TO THE '5AM STORYTALK PODCAST' AT APPLE

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5am-storytalk/id1807437928

A paid subscription at Apple will get you access to all of my bonus episodes in which my guests return to break down a seminal artwork from their lives.

TIP JAR

Not up for a paid subscription but appreciate the work that’s gone into making this podcast happen? You can “buy me a coffee” ⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://buymeacoffee.com/colecolehaddon⁠

LINKS

• Listen to Ricardo Lemvo and Makina Loca’s song “E Moyo” here: https://open.spotify.com/track/6k5vFhEHzg5A0vCheLZ9yD?si=2744e67a7ff7449b

• Learn more about Dr. Anne Rimoin here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Rimoin

• Follow Dr. Rimoin on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/annerimoin/

SOCIAL MEDIA

Follow Cole/5AM StoryTalk at…

⁠⁠5AM StoryTalk @ Instagram⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/5amstorytalkpodcast/⁠⁠⁠

Cole Haddon @ Instagram⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/colehaddonwashere/⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://bsky.app/profile/colehaddon.bsky.social⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.threads.com/Colehaddonwashere⁠⁠⁠

EMAIL

⁠[email protected]

-

5AM StoryTalk would like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Djarra people of the Kulin Nation and pay respects to Elders past and present.

This podcast's music is by ⁠⁠Cary Brothers⁠⁠. ⁠⁠https://www.carybrothers.com/⁠⁠

Today we’re going to be discussing three game-changing lessons you can learn from interviewing others - both to enrich your writing and your life.

This skill, which I developed as a freelance arts journalist for Village Voice Media amongst others, has directly impacted my screenwriting and fiction writing over the years. But it's also helped bring me closer to loved ones I was struggling to understand better.

SUBSCRIBE TO THE '5AM STORYTALK NEWSLETTER'

⁠⁠https://colehaddon.substack.com/⁠⁠

You'll gain access to both the 5AM StoryTalk newsletter and all episodes of this podcast – including exclusive bonus episodes in which my guests discuss seminal pieces of art from their lives. Ask questions in the comments section there, too!

SUBSCRIBE TO THE '5AM STORYTALK PODCAST' AT APPLE

⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5am-storytalk/id1807437928⁠⁠

A paid subscription at Apple will get you access to all of my bonus episodes in which my guests return to break down a seminal artwork from their lives.

TIP JAR

Not up for a paid subscription but appreciate the work that’s gone into making this podcast happen? You can “buy me a coffee” ⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://buymeacoffee.com/colehaddon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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5AM StoryTalk would like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Djarra people of the Kulin Nation and pay respects to Elders past and present.

This podcast's music is by ⁠⁠Cary Brothers⁠⁠. ⁠⁠https://www.carybrothers.com/⁠⁠

Welcome to 5AM StoryTalk! I'm joined by screenwriter LIZ HANNAH whose script for The Post was so phenomenal it was sold and released in just 15 months - with Steven Spielberg as the director. Her credits also include the films Long Shot and Lee, TV series like "Mindhunter", and co-creating “The Girl From Plainville”.

Liz and I discuss the following (amongst many other things):

• Craft, craft, and more craft

• Her current struggle over how best to use her own creative voice to confront what’s happening in the U.S. and world, which is complicating her new spec script
• Why she couldn’t have written The Post at this point in her career (or: the advantage of being young, dumb, and fearless as an artist)
• What went into writing two pivotal scenes in her career, a monologue performed by Sarah Paulson in The Post and the interrogation of Charles Manson in Season 2 of “Mindhunter”
• The unintended resonance of The Post in Trump’s America, which provokes a heartbreaking observation about how her success was achieved

• The pivotal role of journalism in democracy, highlighted in her script for The Post and work on Lee
• Whether Hollywood is up to the challenge of confronting the major challenges of our day, from fascism to climate change

BONUS EPISODE

A bonus ep is available in which Liz discusses a seminal piece of art from her life: David Bowie's iconic album, THE RISE AND FALL OF ZIGGY STARDUST ANDN THE SPIDERS FROM MARS. You can listen to that at Apple, Spotify, and Substack:

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5am-storytalk/id1807437928?i=1000708845918

Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/651XPBdwJMvoa6k1LlZom9?si=4a91bb8790c543bf

Substack: https://colehaddon.substack.com/p/bonus-podcast-liz-hannah-talks-david?utm_source=publication-search

Become a paid supporter of this podcast at Apple or Substack and you'll get access to all bonus episodes five to six months earlier than at Spotify.

LINKS:

• Learn more about Liz Hannah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liz_Hannah
• Watch The Post trailer
• Read Liz’s script for The Post here
• Watch the Lee trailer
• Watch “The Girl from Plainville” trailer
• In my introduction, I reference John August’s observations about a unifying theatrical experience. You can listen to my conversation with him here: https://colehaddon.substack.com/p/new-podcast-q-and-a-john-august-wants
• Liz and I discuss my traumatic experience creating “Dracula” (2013), which you can listen to me discuss here: https://open.spotify.com/episode/73yAzyPeOP0eQXmR30GgVB?si=1f59c2121ce54679

SUBSCRIBE TO THE '5AM STORYTALK NEWSLETTER'

⁠⁠https://colehaddon.substack.com/⁠⁠

You'll gain access to both the 5AM StoryTalk newsletter and all episodes of this podcast – including exclusive bonus episodes in which my guests discuss seminal pieces of art from their lives. Ask questions in the comments section there, too!

SUBSCRIBE TO THE '5AM STORYTALK PODCAST' AT APPLE

⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5am-storytalk/id1807437928⁠⁠

A paid subscription at Apple will get you access to all of my bonus episodes in which my guests return to break down a seminal artwork from their lives.

TIP JAR

Not up for a paid subscription but appreciate the work that’s gone into making this podcast happen? You can “buy me a coffee” ⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://buymeacoffee.com/colehaddon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

SOCIAL MEDIA

Follow Cole/5AM StoryTalk at…

⁠⁠5AM StoryTalk @ Instagram⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/5amstorytalkpodcast/⁠⁠⁠

Cole Haddon @ Instagram⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/colehaddonwashere/⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://bsky.app/profile/colehaddon.bsky.social⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.threads.com/Colehaddonwashere⁠⁠⁠

EMAIL

⁠[email protected]

-

5AM StoryTalk would like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Djarra people of the Kulin Nation and pay respects to Elders past and present.

This podcast's music is by ⁠⁠Cary Brothers⁠⁠. ⁠⁠https://www.carybrothers.com/⁠⁠

Screenwriter LIZ HANNAH (The Post, Long Shot, Lee, co-creator “The Girl from Plainville”) – returns to discuss a seminal piece of art from her life: David Bowie’s 1972 album THE RISE AND FALL OF ZIGGY STARDUST AND THE SPIDERS OF MARS. What can we learn about the creative process from this glam rock masterpiece?

This bonus episode was released half a year earlier than it became available on Spotify. To get access to all bonus episodes like this one upon initial release, become a paid subscriber to 5AM StoryTalk at Apple or Substack:

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5am-storytalk/id1807437928

Substack: https://colehaddon.substack.com/

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Be sure to listen to the first part of my chat with Liz, too:

Listen at Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/screenwriter-liz-hannah-wants-to-get-crazy-the-post/id1807437928?i=1000708809193

Listen at Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4SSOrf5flyoQvck4qV2Lfz?si=afd878472e6140aa

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Liz and I will discuss (amongst other things):

• Her earliest experiences with David Bowie's music and specifics about how it profoundly rewired her creative identity

• The history, audacity, and unexpected death of Ziggy Stardust and what artists can learn from the brevity of the character’s existence

• Bowie’s career-spanning artistic ethos and how she applies it to her own creative process/work (i.e., creative risk-taking, reinvention, etc.)

• A specific example of how Bowie impacted the production of “The Girl from Plainville”

• Sincerity and passion in Bowie’s work (or: how honesty can make art accessible and relatable)

• Todd Haynes’ Velvet Goldmine, a film that's intrinsically linked to Bowie's Ziggy character and our own relationship to Bowie

LINKS

• Learn more about Liz Hannah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liz_Hannah
• Listen to David Bowie's 'The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders From Mars': https://open.spotify.com/album/48D1hRORqJq52qsnUYZX56?si=_PJfr9lXTjyW8autjYlhYg

SUBSCRIBE TO THE '5AM STORYTALK NEWSLETTER'

⁠⁠https://colehaddon.substack.com/⁠⁠

You'll gain access to both the 5AM StoryTalk newsletter and all episodes of this podcast – including exclusive bonus episodes in which my guests discuss seminal pieces of art from their lives. Ask questions in the comments section there, too!

SUBSCRIBE TO THE '5AM STORYTALK PODCAST' AT APPLE

⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5am-storytalk/id1807437928⁠⁠

A paid subscription at Apple will get you access to all of my bonus episodes in which my guests return to break down a seminal artwork from their lives.

TIP JAR

Not up for a paid subscription but appreciate the work that’s gone into making this podcast happen? You can “buy me a coffee” ⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://buymeacoffee.com/colehaddon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

SOCIAL MEDIA

Follow Cole/5AM StoryTalk at…

⁠⁠5AM StoryTalk @ Instagram⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/5amstorytalkpodcast/⁠⁠⁠

Cole Haddon @ Instagram⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/colehaddonwashere/⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://bsky.app/profile/colehaddon.bsky.social⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠: ⁠⁠⁠https://www.threads.com/Colehaddonwashere⁠⁠⁠

EMAIL

⁠[email protected]

-

5AM StoryTalk would like to acknowledge the Traditional Owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Djarra people of the Kulin Nation and pay respects to Elders past and present.

This podcast's music is by ⁠⁠Cary Brothers⁠⁠. ⁠⁠https://www.carybrothers.com/⁠⁠