This episode of 'From What If to What Next' focuses on Utopianism, on our ability to imagine better futures. This is such an amazing conversation with two people who know more about Utopias than the rest of us.

Alex Zamalin's work first came to my attention through his book 'Black Utopia', which I hugely recommend, and which introduced me to so many great ideas and thinkers. And more recently, Gregory Claeys' book 'Utopianism for a Dying Planet: Life after Consumerism', was similarly impactful, opening many new doors in my mind. To bring them together for a conversation? A dream come true. I hope you enjoy it. And I look forward to the podcasts of 2023 and where they might take us.