In this conversation, I talk with clinical psychologist and author Dr. Naomi Fisher about self-directed education, and why it can be such a powerful approach for neurodivergent kids, especially those with a PDA profile. Naomi shares why agency is so important in learning, how traditional school can chip away at a child’s self-worth, and what it looks like when we truly support demand-avoidant kids in ways that work for them. We also get into the challenges parents face when stepping outside the norm and why keeping the parent-child relationship at the center is key.

Things you'll learn from this episode

• Why agency in learning is essential for neurodivergent children to build confidence, reduce anxiety, and stay engaged
• How self-directed education supports children—especially those with PDA—by minimizing pressure and honoring their natural pace
• Why respecting a child’s right to say no is foundational for creating a safe, trust-based learning environment
• How understanding the cycle of demand avoidance helps reframe “bad behavior” as a response to overwhelm, not defiance
• Why shifting away from rigid definitions of academic success can open the door to more authentic growth and capability
• How prioritizing the parent-child relationship and finding community support helps families confidently navigate less conventional paths

Resources mentioned

• ⁠Dr. Naomi Fisher’s website⁠
• ⁠Naomi Fisher on Substack⁠
• ⁠A Different Way to Learn⁠ by Naomi Fisher
• ⁠Eliza Fricker Talks About Parenting a Child with PDA⁠ (Tilt Parenting Podcast)
• ⁠Eliza Fricker’s website⁠
• ⁠The Family Experience of PDA⁠ by Eliza Fricker
• ⁠Eliza Fricker / Missing the Mark on Facebook⁠
• ⁠Changing Our Minds: How Children Can Take Control of Their Own Learning⁠ by Naomi Fisher
• ⁠What Can We Do When School’s Not Working: An Illustrated Handbook for Professionals⁠ by Naomi Fisher
• ⁠Dr. Ross Greene’s Collaborative and Proactive Solutions Model