Britain's official national debt is already heading towards £3 trillion, but the real burden facing taxpayers is far higher. Podcast host Duncan Barkes is joined by the TPA's William Yarwood and Anne Strickland to discuss new TaxPayers' Alliance research into the real national debt, which highlights the government's true liabilities at £11.7 trillion, or almost four times the size of the UK economy. They examine why headline debt figures fail to capture the full scale of state pension promises, public-sector pensions, PFI commitments, and nuclear decommissioning costs. They also discuss how debt interest is swallowing ever more public money, why welfare spending is becoming impossible to ignore, and how political cowardice has left future taxpayers with an enormous bill.