In this episode, Nathan and Ailsa discuss the Book of Job.
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Ailsa: Welcome to About That Bible with Every Nation NYC, we are here to help you get more out of that Bible. We are reading a plan at the moment and you will find that plan in the notes if you want to follow along too. We're going to discuss different bits as we read along. You can also follow us on Instagram or twitter @AboutThatBible or go to our website everynationnyc.org for all of our podcasts there. But without further ado let's talk about that Bible. My name is Ailsa this is Nathan we're going to talk: Job.
Ailsa: I feel like every time we come to talk about a book of the Bible it's always like oh my goodness this is a crazy one, but here we are again Job.
Nathan: This one is definitely no exception, it's a beast.
Ailsa: Yeah, it's Job. True confession, until very recently, in fact until we did this plan I don't think I'd read the whole of Job.
Ailsa: Because it had always been like, Job, this is really depressing and meaty. And I put it off.
Nathan: I definitely don't blame you. I think I've only read it in its entirety maybe twice or three times. It's not like the most uplifting thing, is it?
Ailsa: No, and that's why we're going to talk about the main point of Job, and it's not a hugely uplifting topic, but here we go. So, I think Job is talking about whether the world works in a just way and whether God is just.
Ailsa: Yeah, let's start by summarizing Job and then we can come back to whether God is just. You know that really small question.
Nathan: I mean the simple answer is yes, right?
Ailsa: Is it? I think that's what we like to call trite.
Ailsa: Trite, simple and trite. Let's try to summarize job first so we know what we're talking about. What is Job? What's going on?
Nathan: It's an immense book, it's 40 some odd chapters long if not longer?
Nathan: And basically we open and God is holding court in heaven. God is surrounded by other spiritual beings.
Ailsa: Which you do not get very often in the Bible I should add.
Nathan: So yeah, you have this heavenly scene.
Ailsa: It's like a God chat, yeah.
Nathan: We don't know who's seeing this we don't know who's narrating this but there he is. And out of the midst comes stain and sais... actually, no, God says... How does that start?
Ailsa: Well, I think he's like, "oh Job".
Nathan: God's just bragging on Job.
Ailsa: I think so and then satan's like, he's only good because he wants things from you.
Nathan: In any case, either God or satan raises the subject matter of Job and satan’s like, exactly, he's only serving you because you're so good to him God.
Ailsa: Yeah, and then we move on to, well, then satan's how about I prove to you that I'm right, God's like how about I prove to you that I'm right and then God's like ok you can go test Job basically.
Ailsa: Then Job has like a terrible time.
Nathan: His life goes totally sideways.
Nathan: Up until that point he'd been a very righteous person. He'd served God, he'd made sacrifices on behalf of his children in case they'd got up to a little mischief while they'd been partying. And I love likes how teenagers, you know, in ancient Hebrew culture.
Ailsa: They were also being teenagers.
Nathan: Yeah, they're basically the same. And so Job's praying for them, he's praying for his wife, he's working hard, he's living for God the best he can and then everything starts collapsing around him. Literally, I think a house falls on his children, his animals die.
Ailsa: Lots of people come and like take away all his different kinds of animals. I think there are different people that come and it's irrelevant but I think it's kinda funny, it's not funny obviously, but I think you know what I mean.
Nathan: There are all sorts of calamities and disasters and only one person survives and it's just the messenger and he comes and says, "Job, awful news, everybody died. All your sheep have died, all your camels have died." Messinger after messenger.
Ailsa: Yeah, and then his friends pop up.
Nathan: He's got three friends.
Ailsa: Three friends, they pop up. They're like so good at the beginning, they're like hey we're just going to sit with you because you're like suffering and terrible things.
Nathan: They just sit in silence don't they?
Ailsa: I'm like, I'm going to write that down, that's good. And then they start, then it starts being this back and forth. RIght so one friend will talk for a bit and then Job will answer. Next friend, Job answers and it's like that for a lot of chapters.
Nathan: I think there are three cycles of that. Yes and then a fourth friend turns up out of nowhere. Elihu, something like that.
Nathan: And he's young and he brash and he gets the job done and he disagrees with Job and he disagrees with Job and he disagrees with the friends, but he honors God. He lifts God up. He has a very high view of God. And what's tempting while we're reading Job and what's hard is that each person is bringing their perspective. Each person is true, but it's not kinda not universally true. Like his friends are saying, well you must have done something wrong and as you're reading it you're like yeah Job has certainly done something wrong.
Ailsa: I always think that.
Nathan: Yeah, there's no the way that you're perfect.
Ailsa: He's a human. Right?
Nathan: Yeah. And then Job's like I've done nothing wrong and then Elihu comes and it's just like who do you trust? Who do you believe through the whole thing?
Ailsa: Yeah, I'm not sure.
Nathan: And you don't really have any clarity through most of the book.
Nathan: Until, finally, in some of the last chapters, God turns up.
Nathan: And boy does he ever turn up. He comes in in a whirlwind. And basically tells Job, stand up, dress like a man.
Nathan: I think he says that, like, dress yourself like a man.
Ailsa: I don't know what that means.
Ailsa: At that point, put a dress on, Right?
Nathan: Probably, oh yeah. Moving on. And God just lets him have it, He's like, you're not god, I am, and where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth, where were you when I made it snow. When I made it rain? Have you seen the heavenly storehouses, you know, filled with snow? Have you seen these mountain tops? Have you seen the depths of the ocean? Were you there in deep dark space when I did this and that? And Job is just dumbfounded, there's nothing that he can say. He's done.
Ailsa: He's done, God has the last word, and then he basically gives him double back at the end.
Ailsa: Which is another hard bit.
Nathan: Only after rebuking his friends. He's like you guys, you treated Job wrong, The three friends, Elihu never gets another mention as far as I can remember.
Nathan: And then Job, you need to pray for your friends.
Nathan: So that they can be restored as well.
Ailsa: So, Thinking about those friends, because most of Job is about the friends, what do they tell us about whether God is just or whether we're seeing an unjust God?
Nathan: His friends have a very simplistic view of the world.
Nathan: It's very black and white. Either God is good, and therefore God rewards good people
or because you're doing so poorly in life, surely you've done something wrong. God's just you're doing bad so you must be the bad guy. It's a very black and white world view. And I think that like, if we ever say, you know, as I did at the start of this video, Yeah, God's just, I've got all the answers.
Ailsa: Yeah, you're just being like them.
Nathan: No, I want to clarify that, God is just, right? Like I thorough, thorough believe that. But when I say that I have all the answers I've got the worldview that's going to solve everything, pull everything together, what it does is it basically turns you into a judgemental person.
Nathan: And that's what happens to his friends. Is that they become very judgemental. They start making up stuff, surely you've tortured widows, or you've robbed widows. Surely you've done this, surely you've, you know, not fed the people that are in need that come to you. Surely you've turned them away empty handed. Or something like that. They just make up these horrible accusations.
Ailsa: Well, they start trying to work out what Job's been doing wrong. To make sense. Which we still do, right? We still, like to think oh this is happening to someone they are suffering in this way, we like to think we're more sophisticated than this. But we like, we like victim blame.
Ailsa: They are like classic victim blamers.
Nathan: That's exactly what is happening here.
Ailsa: The thing I find interesting though is that they, so at the end, and you did mention this, God is like so ticked off at them. And they've actually stood up, they have like, They have stood up and said God is just, Job you must be wrong. Which, you know we're saying that's not very nice, that's judgemental. But like, they seem like they're on the side of God. But then like, he's really ticked off at them. Like Job basically has to save them.
Nathan: That's a great point.
Ailsa: What are we supposed to do with that? Like they seem pro-God.
Nathan: Well, don't be a judgemental, religious. Oh.. Yeah? Like, oh I've got access to God, therefore, you're doing bad, you must be doing wrong. God is more ticked off and that's like a theme in the bible, Jesus to the Pharisees, Paul to the Galatians.
Ailsa: Oh that’s true. It's not like an original to Job moment.
Nathan: I mean, yeah it's early in, well, I don't know, we can talk about history about when it was written but yeah, it's a theme through all of the bible isn't it?
Nathan: God does not like religious bigotry.
Ailsa: Yeah. Man, they just think they're doing the right thing though. The fourth friend, He also thinks God is just though. But it is different?
Nathan: I don't think he pins it on, he doesn't' pin it on Job.
Ailsa: No, I think he's a bit annoyed at Job. I think maybe he's annoyed at Job for how he, how he blames God at one point, I think.
Nathan: Well, that's fair enough, God doesn't get mad at Elihu, the fourth friend.
Ailsa: No, I don't think so. That's the other thing, like, we see with Job, we see someone who does get annoyed at God. Like God is not annoyed at Job at the end. That's actually interesting. He's annoyed at those friends, he's not annoyed at Job. Job has accused God of possibly being unjust.
Nathan: Wow, yeah. So Job has just brought his emotions to God.
Nathan: After going back and forth with his friends he's like that's it I want to talk to God I want him to prove himself to me. And I think that's something that like King David does. He brings all of his emotions to God. It's similar to what Job does. And I think that God understands like this world is tough and we want to see where he is and what he's doing. But on the other hand, he's also a lot, a lot bigger than we can understand and fathom so we don't always get the answers that we're looking for.
Ailsa: No I don't think that you get any of the answers. So like you're left, you read Job and you think, ok so why is this dude suffering? And actually, you're kind of given the answer at the beginning, right? You've got like God and satan having a chat and you know the reason that job is suffering in this instance is because satan sort of thought that he should have a go at him. And God was like, OK. So you see that, but there's no real reason outside of that. And Job never knows. Like he never gets the answer right?
Nathan: No. He doesn't. and he doesn't get an explanation for why he gets everything back. And there's never even an attempt at a reason.
Ailsa: No, it's like it's not even bothering to answer that.
Ailsa: And the God and satan bit is very unsatisfactory.
Nathan: Oh yeah. And I think that's the point. It's supposed to be unsatisfactory.
Ailsa: That's terrible, we hate that.
Nathan: Well like, yeah, but like, bad stuff happens and we never get the answer in life. and so that's basically what Job is opening up. The world is not black and white. Good stuff happens to bad people. Bad stuff happens to good people. But that does not make God unjust.
Nathan: Alright, so we are right now reading through the Bible chronologically. And so it appears kind of halfway kind of after Genesis 11 you go to Job. What we've seen is that there's this satan character, running around, you know, as a snake.
Nathan: And then in Genesis 3, God limits his authority in some way. Like, he says, cursed are you. You're going to be on your belly, eat the dust of the earth. That God in some way limits satan’s authority. And satan doesn't like this. And so in Job what I see is satan saying, Yeah of course people still like you God, you've taken away what I'm allowed to do with them. And it's like if you've ever been using an umbrella on a rainy day, and you're like, has the rain stopped? How bad is it out there? You pull it back. What hits Job is like a welter, a torrential downpour of rain. Like, yeah, satan is still at large, he's still a bad guy, but God got him on lockdown. So he's still able to go around and do his accusing thing and his lying thing but he's not going to just drop a house on your kids.
Ailsa: Ok, that makes sense so you've got like, you've got like the limiting of satan in that first bit of Genesis and then you see how that actually plays out on Job.
Nathan: So that's the way I see it as we read it chronologically that's what I see happening.
Ailsa: Rather than, rather than it being like, God is punishing Job.
Ailsa: He just takes his thing away.
Nathan: His grace. So like grace is something that we don't deserve. We never earn or deserve God's grace and so God is constantly I believe extending grace to every being on earth, making our lives better than what we deserve all the time. And here in Job we see a sneak peek at what it could be like if God did not limit the evil powers of this world.
Nathan: So that's what I see when I read it chronologically.
Ailsa: Yeah, and where does it normally, what do we learn about the book from where it normally sits in our Bible?
Nathan: Normally, it sits with the wisdom literature. And you get Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Job. And I love the work that the Bible Project did on this explaining the evolution of wisdom literature, they build one on top of the other. So, Proverbs has this very simplistic kind of black and white view of the world. If you do good, good stuff is going to happen to you. If you do bad, if you sleep in, and you don't work then you're going to be poor. And that's mostly true. But there's always the exception. And then Ecclesiastics comes along and says the wicked prosper. What's the point of life? And it kinda tears up the groundwork of Proverbs. And then Job comes along and says, yeah that's all true, but you know what? God's still just. He sits on his throne. His wisdom is way beyond our wisdom and we've got to trust him whether we like it or not. And that's like really really hard.
Nathan: I think the authors knew that from the very start. And that's why Job struggles with it, that's why his tree black and white friends struggle with it. Elihu never even really gets his head around it.
Nathan: It's really tough.
Ailsa: At least we see represented people struggling with it though.
Ailsa: It's like, it's ok to like really struggle with it.
Nathan: The nature of sin; and I'm thinking Adam and Eve fell and what they did was they said, we're not going to trust you as God, we're going to take our trust from you and pull it inward. All of a sudden, the universal center of right and wrong is going to rest here [in me]. And so when bad things happen to me I'm going to say this is wrong. And God's saying no, the worlds quite messed up now and so to accomplish ultimate good you're going to think that it's wrong. Your little world is going to experience something that does not feel good for you in the moment.
Ailsa: That is super hard.
Nathan: And so God is asking for us to expand our world and allow our world to be bigger than us in our suffering.
Ailsa: Ooo, it's like such a hard one to read. This is why people are like, oh Job.
Nathan: Yeah, so Job is super uplifting. But I believe it is because bad stuff is happening. But what Job is saying is that there is reason, there is a point. That God is still in control. And that Romans chapter 8, we bandied about quite a lot, or it can be bandied about, and I don't want to just use it tritely, but I believe it points in, it funnels in to Job here. "All things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to his purposes." God is working stuff for good.
Ailsa: But on a much bigger scale than we can comprehend basically.
Nathan: Yes it does not mean that at the end of your life you know, on your deathbed, God is going to turn up and be like, well here's why your cat died when you were three, Your granny died when you were seven, you know, your father left you when you were twelve. He's not going to do that. Sometimes we get glimpses of that in the world and most of the time... No, I believe that when you walk with God you do get the narrative kinda unfolding.
Ailsa: Do you mean like you do understand more of why things happen sometimes?
Nathan: Yes, but you do gotta hold on for a long time.
Ailsa: Yeah, and it's not also like, 'like for like'. Like you, you don't get to see like oh, you sin - this happens. Or you're like good - this happens. Like it's more complicated.
Nathan: Your cat dies at three so you can go into veterinary school and solve cat AIDS.
Ailsa: Or not even that. Like the, if you're a good person, then you get good blessing. Or, you know, you follow God and then you get a good thing. Like what Satan accuses Job at the beginning of only doing it for what he can get out of God.
Nathan: Yeah, so we've got to follow God because he's God?
Ailsa: Yeah. It kinda seems like that because that's kinda what it says on the end. God's like I am God and bigger than your, any of your stuff.
Nathan: He deserves it, he's God and we're not. Even though our heart cries out, "yes I am yes I am."
Ailsa: Yeah, I know. We're like but surely I understand and Job's like, you don't understand.
Nathan: I've got enough wisdom!
Ailsa: And that's Job. Yeah, we get to see a man wrestling with just not understanding.
Ailsa: Yeah. And he gets all this stuff back at the end. But it's not because he was good. Right? I think God makes that clear, it's just grace on the end.
Nathan: It's just grace. There's all sorts of little droplets of grace all the way through. All the way through Job. Job keeps referencing and alluding to these incredible Christological foreshadowing pieces.
Ailsa: What do you mean by 'Christological foreshadowing pieces' because that's a whole bunch of turms.
Nathan: So Job keeps using these phrases that the only answer to these phrases is Jesus. The only way that this is ever going to be solved is Jesus. So at one point he's like, 'I wish that I had an advocate who could place his hand on God and place his hand on me.' I'm like, well who's going to touch heaven and earth at the same time?
Nathan: Jesus. Another point he says, "For I know my Redeemer lives and shall stand upon the earth." Who's this redeemer, who's going to stand on the earth? Jesus. Right?
Nathan: And then ultimately the way that Job suffers, everything around him dies, he has basically died. LIke to everything, to the world, to his wife, to his kids, to everything around him is dead. And then God says, 'this is the guy who is going to restore these self-righteous friends back to God.' And even Job himself is a little bit like a Christ figure.
Ailsa: Yeah, because he keeps being, standing in the gap for these people.
Nathan: He stands in the gap for his friends, that's right. Oh gosh, yeah, for his kids at first.
Ailsa: Yeah, for his kids on the front end and then for his friends on the back end, right? Oh, it's all about Jesus.
Nathan: It is all about Jesus. Or you can read it.
Nathan: I think Jesus read it all about Jesus.
Ailsa: Probably, probably. Still, but, I think we're still left, I think it's all about Jesus, but I think we're still left with it's ok to be grappling with this stuff.
Nathan: Yeah, it's a lifelong struggle, it really is. And for somebody who is struggling it's just, you kinda have to hold on, just keep going, trusting that God is good, trusting that your Redeemer lives, has stood upon the earth. That God is crushing suffering. And will one day fully and finally make it right.
Ailsa: Yeah and on that note, Job.
Nathan: Yeah, Job it's a struggle.
Nathan: The struggle is real.
Ailsa: It's an important one though because the struggle is real in real life. Job, I don't want to say done because that's not Job done. Done.
Nathan: Job, the conversation is opened.
Nathan: We're finished opening the conversation. Yeah that's a good way of putting it.
Ailsa: And Job we're finished opening your conversation, and done.
Ailsa: That was About That Bible with Every Nation NYC. You can follow along the same reading plan as us and you'll find the link for that in the notes and you can read too. Don't forget you can also follow us on Instagram and twitter @AboutThatBible and you can find all our podcasts at everynationnyc.org or all the places that you can find podcasts. See you later guys.
Ailsa: Welcome to About That Bible with Every Nation NYC, we are here to help you get more out of that Bible. We are reading a plan at the moment and you will find that plan in the notes if you want to follow along too. We're going to discuss different bits as we read along. You can also follow us on Instagram or twitter @AboutThatBible or go to our website everynationnyc.org for all of our podcasts there. But without further ado let's talk about that Bible. My name is Ailsa this is Nathan we're going to talk: Job.
Ailsa: I feel like every time we come to talk about a book of the Bible it's always like oh my goodness this is a crazy one, but here we are again Job.
Nathan: This one is definitely no exception, it's a beast.
Ailsa: Yeah, it's Job. True confession, until very recently, in fact until we did this plan I don't think I'd read the whole of Job.
Ailsa: Because it had always been like, Job, this is really depressing and meaty. And I put it off.
Nathan: I definitely don't blame you. I think I've only read it in its entirety maybe twice or three times. It's not like the most uplifting thing, is it?
Ailsa: No, and that's why we're going to talk about the main point of Job, and it's not a hugely uplifting topic, but here we go. So, I think Job is talking about whether the world works in a just way and whether God is just.
Ailsa: Yeah, let's start by summarizing Job and then we can come back to the weather God is just. You know that really small question.
Nathan: I mean the simple answer is yes, right?
Ailsa: Is it? I think that's what we like to call trite.
Ailsa: Trite, simple and trite. Let's try to summarize job first so we know what we're talking about. What is Job? What's going on?
Nathan: It's an immense book, it's 40 some odd chapters long if not longer?
Nathan: And basically we open and God is holding court in heaven. God is surrounded by other spiritual beings.
Ailsa: Which you do not get very often in the Bible I should add.
Nathan: So yeah, you have this heavenly scene.
Ailsa: It's like a God chat, yeah.
Nathan: We don't know who's seeing this we don't know who's narrating this but there he is. And out of the midst comes stain and sais... actually, no, God says... How does that start?
Ailsa: Well, I think he's like, "oh Job".
Nathan: God's just bragging on Job.
Ailsa: I think so and then satan's like, he's only good because he wants things from you.
Nathan: In any case, either God or satan raises the subject matter of Job and satan’s like, exactly, he's only serving you because you're so good to him God.
Ailsa: Yeah, and then we move on to, well, then satan's how about I prove to you that I'm right, God's like how about I prove to you that I'm right and then God's like ok you can go test Job basically.
Ailsa: Then Job has like a terrible time.
Nathan: His life goes totally sideways.
Nathan: Up until that point he'd been a very righteous person. He'd served God, he'd made sacrifices on behalf of his children in case they'd got up to a little mischief while they'd been partying. And I love likes how teenagers, you know, in ancient Hebrew culture.
Ailsa: They were also being teenagers.
Nathan: Yeah, they're basically the same. And so Job's praying for them, he's praying for his wife, he's working hard, he's living for God the best he can and then everything starts collapsing around him. Literally, I think a house falls on his children, his animals die.
Ailsa: Lots of people come and like take away all his different kinds of animals. I think there are different people that come and it's irrelevant but I think it's kinda funny, it's not funny obviously, but I think you know what I mean.
Nathan: There are all sorts of calamities and disasters and only one person survives and it's just the messenger and he comes and says, "Job, awful news, everybody died. All your sheep have died, all your camels have died." Messinger after messenger.
Ailsa: Yeah, and then his friends pop up.
Nathan: He's got three friends.
Ailsa: Three friends, they pop up. They're like so good at the beginning, they're like hey we're just going to sit with you because you're like suffering and terrible things.
Nathan: They just sit in silence don't they?
Ailsa: I'm like, I'm going to write that down, that's good. And then they start, then it starts being this back and forth. RIght so one friend will talk for a bit and then Job will answer. Next friend, Job answers and it's like that for a lot of chapters.
Nathan: I think there are three cycles of that. Yes and then a fourth friend turns up out of nowhere. Elihu, something like that.
Nathan: And he's young and he brash and he gets the job done and he disagrees with Job and he disagrees with Job and he disagrees with the friends, but he honors God. He lifts God up. He has a very high view of God. And what's tempting while we're reading Job and what's hard is that each person is bringing their perspective. Each person is true, but it's not kinda not universally true. Like his friends are saying, well you must have done something wrong and as you're reading it you're like yeah Job has certainly done something wrong.
Ailsa: I always think that.
Nathan: Yeah, there's no the way that you're perfect.
Ailsa: He's a human. Right?
Nathan: Yeah. And then Job's like I've done nothing wrong and then Elihu comes and it's just like who do you trust? Who do you believe through the whole thing?
Ailsa: Yeah, I'm not sure.
Nathan: And you don't really have any clarity through most of the book.
Nathan: Until, finally, in some of the last chapters, God turns up.
Nathan: And boy does he ever turn up. He comes in in a whirlwind. And basically tells Job, stand up, dress like a man.
Nathan: I think he says that, like, dress yourself like a man.
Ailsa: I don't know what that means.
Ailsa: At that point, put a dress on, Right?
Nathan: Probably, oh yeah. Moving on. And God just lets him have it, He's like, you're not god, I am, and where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth, where were you when I made it snow. When I made it rain? Have you seen the heavenly storehouses, you know, filled with snow? Have you seen these mountain tops? Have you seen the depths of the ocean? Were you there in deep dark space when I did this and that? And Job is just dumbfounded, there's nothing that he can say. He's done.
Ailsa: He's done, God has the last word, and then he basically gives him double back at the end.
Ailsa: Which is another hard bit.
Nathan: Only after rebuking his friends. He's like you guys, you treated Job wrong, The three friends, Elihu never gets another mention as far as I can remember.
Nathan: And then Job, you need to pray for your friends.
Nathan: So that they can be restored as well.
Ailsa: So, Thinking about those friends, because most of Job is about the friends, what do they tell us about whether God is just or whether we're seeing an unjust God?
Nathan: His friends have a very simplistic view of the world.
Nathan: It's very black and white. Either God is good, and therefore God rewards good people
or because you're doing so poorly in life, surely you've done something wrong. God's just you're doing bad so you must be the bad guy. It's a very black and white world view. And I think that like, if we ever say, you know, as I did at the start of this video, Yeah, God's just, I've got all the answers.
Ailsa: Yeah, you're just being like them.
Nathan: No, I want to clarify that, God is just, right? Like I thorough, thorough believe that. But when I say that I have all the answers I've got the worldview that's going to solve everything, pull everything together, what it does is it basically turns you into a judgemental person.
Nathan: And that's what happens to his friends. Is that they become very judgemental. They start making up stuff, surely you've tortured widows, or you've robbed widows. Surely you've done this, surely you've, you know, not fed the people that are in need that come to you. Surely you've turned them away empty handed. Or something like that. They just make up these horrible accusations.
Ailsa: Well, they start trying to work out what Job's been doing wrong. To make sense. Which we still do, right? We still, like to think oh this is happening to someone they are suffering in this way, we like to think we're more sophisticated than this. But we like, we like victim blame.
Ailsa: They are like classic victim blamers.
Nathan: That's exactly what is happening here.
Ailsa: The thing I find interesting though is that they, so at the end, and you did mention this, God is like so ticked off at them. And they've actually stood up, they have like, They have stood up and said God is just, Job you must be wrong. Which, you know we're saying that's not very nice, that's judgemental. But like, they seem like they're on the side of God. But then like, he's really ticked off at them. Like Job basically has to save them.
Nathan: That's a great point.
Ailsa: What are we supposed to do with that? Like they seem pro-God.
Nathan: Well, don't be a judgemental, religious. Oh.. Yeah? Like, oh I've got access to God, therefore, you're doing bad, you must be doing wrong. God is more ticked off and that's like a theme in the bible, Jesus to the Pharisees, Paul to the Galatians.
Ailsa: Oh that’s true. It's not like an original to Job moment.
Nathan: I mean, yeah it's early in, well, I don't know, we can talk about history about when it was written but yeah, it's a theme through all of the bible isn't it?
Nathan: God does not like religious bigotry.
Ailsa: Yeah. Man, they just think they're doing the right thing though. The fourth friend, He also thinks God is just though. But it is different?
Nathan: I don't think he pins it on, he doesn't' pin it on Job.
Ailsa: No, I think he's a bit annoyed at Job. I think maybe he's annoyed at Job for how he, how he blames God at one point, I think.
Nathan: Well, that's fair enough, God doesn't get mad at Elihu, the fourth friend.
Ailsa: No, I don't think so. That's the other thing, like, we see with Job, we see someone who does get annoyed at God. Like God is not annoyed at Job at the end. That's actually interesting. He's annoyed at those friends, he's not annoyed at Job. Job has accused God of possibly being unjust.
Nathan: Wow, yeah. So Job has just brought his emotions to God.
Nathan: After going back and forth with his friends he's like that's it I want to talk to God I want him to prove himself to me. And I think that's something that like King David does. He brings all of his emotions to God. It's similar to what Job does. And I think that God understands like this world is tough and we want to see where he is and what he's doing. But on the other hand, he's also a lot, a lot bigger than we can understand and fathom so we don't always get the answers that we're looking for.
Ailsa: No I don't think that you get any of the answers. So like you're left, you read Job and you think, ok so why is this dude suffering? And actually, you're kind of given the answer at the beginning, right? You've got like God and satan having a chat and you know the reason that job is suffering in this instance is because satan sort of thought that he should have a go at him. And God was like, OK. So you see that, but there's no real reason outside of that. And Job never knows. Like he never gets the answer right?
Nathan: No. He doesn't. and he doesn't get an explanation for why he gets everything back. And there's never even an attempt at a reason.
Ailsa: No, it's like it's not even bothering to answer that.
Ailsa: And the God and satan bit is very unsatisfactory.
Nathan: Oh yeah. And I think that's the point. It's supposed to be unsatisfactory.
Ailsa: That's terrible, we hate that.
Nathan: Well like, yeah, but like, bad stuff happens and we never get the answer in life. and so that's basically what Job is opening up. The world is not black and white. Good stuff happens to bad people. Bad stuff happens to good people. But that does not make God unjust.
Nathan: Alright, so we are right now reading through the Bible chronologically. And so it appears kind of halfway kind of after Genesis 11 you go to Job. What we've seen is that there's this satan character, running around, you know, as a snake.
Nathan: And then in Genesis 3, God limits his authority in some way. Like, he says, cursed are you. You're going to be on your belly, eat the dust of the earth. That God in some way limits satan’s authority. And satan doesn't like this. And so in Job what I see is satan saying, Yeah of course people still like you God, you've taken away what I'm allowed to do with them. And it's like if you've ever been using an umbrella on a rainy day, and you're like, has the rain stopped? How bad is it out there? You pull it back. What hits Job is like a welter, a torrential downpour of rain. Like, yeah, satan is still at large, he's still a bad guy, but God got him on lockdown. So he's still able to go around and do his accusing thing and his lying thing but he's not going to just drop a house on your kids.
Ailsa: Ok, that makes sense so you've got like, you've got like the limiting of satan in that first bit of Genesis and then you see how that actually plays out on Job.
Nathan: So that's the way I see it as we read it chronologically that's what I see happening.
Ailsa: Rather than, rather than it being like, God is punishing Job.
Ailsa: He just takes his thing away.
Nathan: His grace. So like grace is something that we don't deserve. We never earn or deserve God's grace and so God is constantly I believe extending grace to every being on earth, making our lives better than what we deserve all the time. And here in Job we see a sneak peek at what it could be like if God did not limit the evil powers of this world.
Nathan: So that's what I see when I read it chronologically.
Ailsa: Yeah, and where does it normally, what do we learn about the book from where it normally sits in our Bible?
Nathan: Normally, it sits with the wisdom literature. And you get Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Job. And I love the work that the Bible Project did on this explaining the evolution of wisdom literature, they build one on top of the other. So, Proverbs has this very simplistic kind of black and white view of the world. If you do good, good stuff is going to happen to you. If you do bad, if you sleep in, and you don't work then you're going to be poor. And that's mostly true. But there's always the exception. And then Ecclesiastics comes along and says the wicked prosper. What's the point of life? And it kinda tears up the groundwork of Proverbs. And then Job comes along and says, yeah that's all true, but you know what? God's still just. He sits on his throne. His wisdom is way beyond our wisdom and we've got to trust him whether we like it or not. And that's like really really hard.
Nathan: I think the authors knew that from the very start. And that's why Job struggles with it, that's why his tree black and white friends struggle with it. Elihu never even really gets his head around it.
Nathan: It's really tough.
Ailsa: At least we see represented people struggling with it though.
Ailsa: It's like, it's ok to like really struggle with it.
Nathan: The nature of sin; and I'm thinking Adam and Eve fell and what they did was they said, we're not going to trust you as God, we're going to take our trust from you and pull it inward. All of a sudden, the universal center of right and wrong is going to rest here [in me]. And so when bad things happen to me I'm going to say this is wrong. And God's saying no, the worlds quite messed up now and so to accomplish ultimate good you're going to think that it's wrong. Your little world is going to experience something that does not feel good for you in the moment.
Ailsa: That is super hard.
Nathan: And so God is asking for us to expand our world and allow our world to be bigger than us in our suffering.
Ailsa: Ooo, it's like such a hard one to read. This is why people are like, oh Job.
Nathan: Yeah, so Job is super uplifting. But I believe it is because bad stuff is happening. But what Job is saying is that there is reason, there is a point. That God is still in control. And that Romans chapter 8, we bandied about quite a lot, or it can be bandied about, and I don't want to just use it tritely, but I believe it points in, it funnels in to Job here. "All things work together for good for those who love God and are called according to his purposes." God is working stuff for good.
Ailsa: But on a much bigger scale than we can comprehend basically.
Nathan: Yes it does not mean that at the end of your life you know, on your deathbed, God is going to turn up and be like, well here's why your cat died when you were three, Your granny died when you were seven, you know, your father left you when you were twelve. He's not going to do that. Sometimes we get glimpses of that in the world and most of the time... No, I believe that when you walk with God you do get the narrative kinda unfolding.
Ailsa: Do you mean like you do understand more of why things happen sometimes?
Nathan: Yes, but you do gotta hold on for a long time.
Ailsa: Yeah, and it's not also like, 'like for like'. Like you, you don't get to see like oh, you sin - this happens. Or you're like good - this happens. Like it's more complicated.
Nathan: Your cat dies at three so you can go into veterinary school and solve cat AIDS.
Ailsa: Or not even that. Like the, if you're a good person, then you get good blessing. Or, you know, you follow God and then you get a good thing. Like what Satan accuses Job at the beginning of only doing it for what he can get out of God.
Nathan: Yeah, so we've got to follow God because he's God?
Ailsa: Yeah. It kinda seems like that because that's kinda what it says on the end. God's like I am God and bigger than your, any of your stuff.
Nathan: He deserves it, he's God and we're not. Even though our heart cries out, "yes I am yes I am."
Ailsa: Yeah, I know. We're like but surely I understand and Job's like, you don't understand.
Nathan: I've got enough wisdom!
Ailsa: And that's Job. Yeah, we get to see a man wrestling with just not understanding.
Ailsa: Yeah. And he gets all this stuff back at the end. But it's not because he was good. Right? I think God makes that clear, it's just grace on the end.
Nathan: It's just grace. There's all sorts of little droplets of grace all the way through. All the way through Job. Job keeps referencing and alluding to these incredible Christological foreshadowing pieces.
Ailsa: What do you mean by 'Christological foreshadowing pieces' because that's a whole bunch of turms.
Nathan: So Job keeps using these phrases that the only answer to these phrases is Jesus. The only way that this is ever going to be solved is Jesus. So at one point he's like, 'I wish that I had an advocate who could place his hand on God and place his hand on me.' I'm like, well who's going to touch heaven and earth at the same time?
Nathan: Jesus. Another point he says, "For I know my Redeemer lives and shall stand upon the earth." Who's this redeemer, who's going to stand on the earth? Jesus. Right?
Nathan: And then ultimately the way that Job suffers, everything around him dies, he has basically died. LIke to everything, to the world, to his wife, to his kids, to everything around him is dead. And then God says, 'this is the guy who is going to restore these self-righteous friends back to God.' And even Job himself is a little bit like a Christ figure.
Ailsa: Yeah, because he keeps being, standing in the gap for these people.
Nathan: He stands in the gap for his friends, that's right. Oh gosh, yeah, for his kids at first.
Ailsa: Yeah, for his kids on the front end and then for his friends on the back end, right? Oh, it's
Nathan: It is all about Jesus. Or you can read it.
Nathan: I think Jesus read it all about Jesus.
Ailsa: Probably, probably. Still, but, I think we're still left, I think it's all about Jesus, but I think we're still left with it's ok to be grappling with this stuff.
Nathan: Yeah, it's a lifelong struggle, it really is. And for somebody who is struggling it's just, you kinda have to hold on, just keep going, trusting that God is good, trusting that your Redeemer lives, has stood upon the earth. That God is crushing suffering. And will one day fully and finally make it right.
Ailsa: Yeah and on that note, Job.
Nathan: Yeah, Job it's a struggle.
Nathan: The struggle is real.
Ailsa: It's an important one though because the struggle is real in real life. Job, I don't want to say done because that's not Job done. Done.
Nathan: Job, the conversation is opened.
Nathan: We're finished opening the conversation. Yeah that's a good way of putting it.
Ailsa: And Job we're finished opening your conversation, and done.
Ailsa: That was About That Bible with Every Nation NYC. You can follow along the same reading plan as us and you'll find the link for that in the notes and you can read too. Don't forget you can also follow us on Instagram and twitter @AboutThatBible and you can find all our podcasts at everynationnyc.org or all the places that you can find podcasts. See you later guys.
