Achieve Wealth Real Estate Investing Podcast

James: Hi audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth through Value at Real Estate Investing podcasts, where we bring in a high quality commercial real estate operator to be interviewed. Last week we had Todd [00:19unclear] from Midwestern States. He's killing it in that area where he focuses a lot on buying multifamily in that area. And imagine he started buying Mobile Home Park and ski resorts and later on ended up in multifamily; so you want to check out that episode. This week we have Joseph Bramante from TRIAC real estate partners who are based out of Houston and they buy deals in Corpus Christi, Houston and Victoria. And Joseph owns and controls almost 600 units on his own and it's another 300 to 400 units as a fee manage. Hey Joseph, welcome to the show.

Joseph: Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

James: So very happy to have you here and thanks for coming on the show. I want to go deep into what are the deals type that you're buying and can you give a brief introduction on when did you get started and the sequence of purchases that lead up to current 600 units and another three, 400 fee managed properties?

Joseph: Yeah. So I got my start in 2011 I bought a 26 unit apartment complex. I was still working in corporate America. I was an engineer for Exxon at the time working overseas. I actually lived in Papua, New Guinea when I got my start. So we were living in a compound in Papua, New Guinea. Had more money than any 24 year old should have. And got the bright idea to buy multifamily and there's more to the story, but to keep it short, we decided to buy apartment complex and we found the property, bought it and did basically almost everything wrong that you could do on your first acquisition. And we spent the next three years fire learning how heavy value add multifamily works. The one good thing we did on my first deal was he bought it in a great location. It's really close to the Galleria and over a three year period, we lease the whole property down, did a $30,000 per unit renovation and at least it back up and doubled the rents, which my mentors at the time were telling me, sell the property, take a loss, you are not qualified to do this. And for the most part they were correct. But nonetheless we did it. We got double all of our money back over 200% returns.

And obviously the mentors didn't really like that so much when I didn't take her advice and not only did it lose money, but doubled my money. And then that was kind of my flag in the sand to the rest of; I was at Parva, I joined a real estate group at that time between purchasing and selling, purchasing and refinancing that property, still own it today. And use that success and that track record as small as it was to raise capital and buy more value ideals. And over the next four years, we bought almost a deal per year. Sold one deal and was really just kind of laying the foundation for our owner management stuff. Because owner manager is really, [03:44unclear] is really involved and I know people would try to make it sound like it's really simple. And I see these guys that are growing these massive portfolios almost overnight.

But there's a lot of foundation work that you have to build in order to really even grow that. I mean, there's a big difference between going from a hundred units to a thousand units and you look at the amount of managers and staff you've got to have just to run that back office. So for us, we've been just kind of going slow and methodical up until about 2016. And then at that point I formed my company Triarc. It was consistent of myself and my two partners, Carrie and Debra. These two ladies were, they have 30 years of prime manager experience each and they were the backbone to all of the properties that we had purchased prior. They were key in that lease down and lease up and the success of that first property.

And really kind of taught me from a property management perspective what I can and cannot do with the property. And the good thing is that you hear everybody buying local. So we're local and you're local in Austin, so I'm sure you see this all the time. You get these out of town buyers coming in and they're buying properties that everybody else who's local has passed on for a reason; and I'm sure the data might seem great, but there's a reason that nobody local is buying that property because they know that outside of the data there's the whole cultural and just what is that sub-market that will take years to turn. But anyway, they've helped me avoid a lot of pitfalls and most, like all the properties we bought except for one, which we've sold have been phenomenal properties.

So anyway, 2016, my company, we merged together formed Triarc and then in 2019, just last year in January, we'd made the decision because we have all this expertise in property to go ahead and start growing the fee management. Because in 2016 we merged, they were a standalone property management company. They had over 2000 units and they had started as part of the merger process, started letting go a clients and we're going mostly owner managed. But then in 2019 as I mentioned, we decided, you know what, maybe that's the wrong path. Let's grow the fee managers, let's grow both from both ends and so just in the last 12...for an owner this month, and we took over another one in Lufkin last month. So we've had tremendous growth. We've got 250 units on the fee manage side that we're taking over. So we've decided we're going to grow the fee managed side and that way we've got plenty of fee income coming in and we're not going to be rushed on the owner management side. Because the worst thing you can do and you know, this is to have financial; it costs money to run a company and to have those financial constraints force you into buying a deal that maybe you don't want to buy or probably shouldn't be pressured into buying. But for us, on the fee managed side that's where as allowing us to grow Triarch exponentially faster and you're always going to be able to grow fee managed companies a lot faster than owner managed.

James: We're going very deep into that. But I want to get back to your beginning part itself. I mean, you gave us a lot of information here, so I want to really dissect it one by one. So you're originally from Papua, New Guinea?

Joseph: No, no, no, no, no, not from Papua. I was working in Papua, New Guinea. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, Google, Papua, New Guinea. You would know, it's an awesome place. You know, I lived there for two years working in a compound and it was basically like living inside of a national geographic magazine. Like everything you'd see in those magazines I saw; I saw people in tribal outfits and I saw bows and arrows and I saw tribal wars between one tribe and another. I saw some pretty nasty stuff as well. It's pretty gruesome stuff, but nonetheless it was a heck of an experience and certainly learned a lot as well working for Exxon.

James: Yeah. Oh, working for Exxon. Okay, good. Yeah, I mean, well I come from Malaysia, so I know near Borneo and I've been to Borneo and it's a lot of beautiful forests.

Joseph: My business manager was from Malaysia.

James: Oh cool.

Joseph: Yeah, yeah.

James: Yeah. All that oil producing countries. So let me get into the timing of your start and the market that you started, right. You started in Houston. I believe even when I started in 2013 with one of my single family; Houston was like the top market. Right? I mean much, much better than Dallas. Right. I mean, right now it talks about Dallas and Austin, but at that time Houston was like the top market for past few years. And how was the situation when you're buying your first deal? I mean so you were working full time as an engineer in Exxon and then how did you make that transition to, Hey, let's buy multifamily. I know you said you had an investment club that you learned some things, but how was your mindset shift from being an employee to now I want to be into a real estate investor.

Joseph: Actually first, so I'm going to get to that question. But first though, so I told you I had a big announcement so I want to go and get the big announcement before, if that's okay because I know this story I'm about to tell you like the back of my hand, I've given it a couple of hundred times. But the big announcement for us, everybody knows, so we track real estate partners. It's actually two companies. It's Triarc properties, which is our owner management side and Triarc Living, which is our fee management side. And then effective today we're launching a third company, Triarc Construction which is going to be our renovation side of the business; as we're going to talk about, we've been pretty heavy on the value add side, we're pretty good at this. Right now we've got a 40,000 per unit renovation underway, which is just a monster renovation.

And part of what we feel is missing in the market, especially when it comes to the construction side, is a kind of turnkey approach to multifamily renovation. You've got a lot of these operators who can see rightly so that there needs to be at renovation, some value add improvement. But they don't fully understand how to, I mean, aside from the physical calculation of what it's going to cost, they don't understand the execution side of, okay, I've calculated what it's going to cost, but there's this whole other side of, okay, now I've got to implement and execute it. And how do I do that? And so what we offer as far as a service from the construction side is not only can we build it for you and we can do the renovation but we're able to tie that with our management company. And so you've got a seamless communication between the team that's managing the property and a team that's renovating it so that you have the highest probability chance of a successful at your value add.

Because I've seen; my first deal, we lost $80,000 on the carried interest alone because we execute it poorly and yet we still made over 200% returns. So we were successful in spite of ourselves. But on deals these days that are so tight, you really have to have very good communication between the operating team and the renovating team. And those days and weeks that go in between your meetings, assuming that you're having them, can really make a big difference; if something is missed and if you don't have a more seamless communication it can really cost you a lot of money as far as the innovation. Triarch construction is strictly veered for the Houston market for now. So if anybody is out there doing renovations, definitely get in touch with us. So we're definitely excited to be rolling that and offering that service. So anyway, there's my big news.

James: Oh, awesome. Thanks for the news. So let's get back to the question on 2011.

Joseph: So the big adjustment for me now, part of the backstory for me is I was working overseas and the best thing that ever happened to me was getting laid off from my job at Exxon and like six months after buying that first property because, well there's a saying that I've heard and we both know that the guy that came from, Mr. Del Walmsley, I'll give him credit where credit is due, but he used to tell me this thing that said what gets in the way of a good life is a great life. And I had had a really good life. And so I had this property that it wasn't really been paying attention to because my monthly income was huge. And so I just wasn't giving attention to it; anyway, lost that income. And so suddenly I started really paying attention to that complex and it wasn't doing so hot. So I took about six months off and all I did was I joined a real estate group, Lifestyles Unlimited, we can say good things or you can say bad things. But nonetheless I joined them and they did help me get over. They were a great, I would say stepping stone. I don't want to, I'm not endorsing anybody to join them now or I'm not saying don't join them. I'm just saying for me they were a good stepping stone.

At the time, 2011 they didn't have all these podcasts, I had books and what got me to get into the industry was, since you asked, I just read books. I read six books and the first book I read were just contrasting single family versus multifamily. And the thesis of the book or the summary was single-family is great percentage wise will always kick ass compared to multifamily, but volume wise it's not there. So if you have the money, go straight to multifamily. I had the money, I went straight to multifamily. A couple more books, I read one on analysis and basically just self-taught myself Real estate or multifamily. Plus I'm an engineer by trade. I was managing about a billion dollars in costs for Exxon. So I was pretty good at this numbers thing. So I felt, and I was also 25, 24, 25. So I had little bit of a ego to me. I thought I was invincible. So I went and bought that first property, it was me and a friend; we went 50/50 on the deal. So how I got introduced, read books, got into it. And then what I realized was that I was like a master at the 30,000 foot level because I've read these books, but when you get down to the day to day of what's going on, I mean those books they didn't tell me how to do a due diligence, and I'm sure maybe there's books now that'll teach you. And I know for sure there's podcasts, there are so many resources now compared to when I got started. That, I mean you just, I feel like people these days, investors now have such a huge advantage to getting in the market but the only advantage that we had in 2011 was the housing crash had just happened.

We were buying stuff, bought my first one at $25,000 a door, which is another reason why everybody thought that [15:52unclear] thousand per door renovation was crazy because I was spending more on the rehab that I did on the purchase price. Just imagine that and now it's worth over 130,000 a door. So it worked out well for me, but that's how I got in and then I actually didn't go right away. Nobody goes full real estate, you don't go 100% into multifamily on your first deal. As far as like, being able to sustain yourself especially for me, I was a high income earner and that's the hardest thing to replace a high income with multifamily, takes a long time versus and I'm not saying this to be insulting at all, so please, but if you're starting from a lower income, it's a lot easier to replace that lower income versus if you already have a good, strong six figure salary, that's going to be harder to replace that on a regular basis that you can depend on in multifamily, you got to buy a couple of deals.

And so what I do, I worked; I had a day job just like everybody else. I had to support myself for about another year bought two more deals and then refinanced the first. And then finally I had enough at least on the; when I refinanced and got double my money back from the first deal. Plus I had some residual ongoing cash flow from two deals that we just bought. That's when I made the decision, go ahead and exit, go full time because I had a pretty big reserve built up and I felt comfortable and we're on a good track. We're above...But I know some people are buying faster and slower. That's was just how we did it.

James: But even when you started, you started the deep value add, where deals that you had to put in $30,000 a door, $40,000 a door.

Joseph: I don't want to pretend like, it wasn't intentional when I bought that first deal, it was supposed to be a three [17:54inaudible]. So that was the other side of the story.

James: And also what was it you said? It was supposed to be three thousand?

Joseph: Three thousand, three zero, zero, zero.

James: And then it went to 30,000?

Joseph: 30,000. So I missed the mark by just a little bit there. That was my first deal...

James: Thanks for being honest because I think that's very important for...

Joseph: Absolutely. I think...

James: Because there's a huge chance of you making mistakes, no matter, you know, you have a mentor, no matter you have a club behind you can still make a mistake. Right?

Joseph: The thing that worries me with everything, with the SCC 506C and all these, and making it so easy to raise money publicly as you got so many people were trying to fake the funk, so to speak, which is fine if you're applying for a job and you're trying to make your resume sound like you did more than you did, but here you're raising money. That's people's money that you could potentially lose. And that's not cool. And so I think with us, like we're very honest and say, yeah, I screwed up the first couple, the first deal and we were off on my third deal that we sold for almost a 200% return; I projected a 300% return. So I learned a lot in the way. It's very hard to get the connections right. And multifamily and you know this, because you're a CCIM. Multifamily is one of the hardest classes of real estate to underwrite, harder than office, harder than retail. Because you've got so many tenants [19:24unclear] parts. That's you should really do it and do it well. It's challenging.

James: Yeah. I think what you're saying is it's hard to underwrite and after that, execute the business plan based on the underwriting. Right? So...

Joseph: Yeah, oh yeah.

James: But I want to really go into this. How did we have so much data between 3000 and 30,000 because I think it's a good learning that someone else can take in? So let's go deep into that. How did you think it was 3000 and how did it become $30,000 per door?

Joseph: Because our broker, I think he's retired right now.

James: He's safe now then.

Joseph: I don't want to call his name out. But anyway he was a crazy, crazy guy. Had like nine cats and was posting cat. He was literally posting cat, it was a weird thing. But anyway, on his broker memorandum said 3000 per door. So we're like, oh he would know he's a broker. Why would he lie to us? And I don't think he lied to us. I mean I don't think any broker lies to you. I think they just don't know. And so we put 3000 a door. We're living in Papua, New Guinea. We're 24 years old. What do we know?

James: Okay, got it. So you're bought it from out of country then, sight unseen?

Joseph: Sight unseen, I didn't see the property until two months after I owned it.

James: So you probably had too much money to put into this kind of deal without seeing it. Okay. I mean it's okay.

Joseph: I bought that property like somebody would buy a rental house. It wasn't, I just knew. And the reason I bought it was because all my managers, all they talked about was like, oh, just either they did some vacation, they bought some hot stock or they bought real estate. So I wanted to kind of show them up and be like, I bought an apartment complex.

James: So, and how many units was that Joseph?

Joseph: 26 units.

James: 26 units. Okay.

Joseph: 25,000 a door.

James: So how did you, 25,000 a door in 2011, which I think probably a market rate at that time in Houston, if I'm not mistaken.

Joseph: If I had a time machine I'd go back, things you don't know. Like who would have thought prices would have escalated this fast. And that's the other thing that worries me. Like since we're talking about us being honest with what's going on, I'd say equal parts of my success have been from underwriting and from just riding the market, they say a rising tide raises all ships. We've been on just the most phenomenal bull run of the real estate market as the cap rates have been getting compressed more and more. But now you're starting to see them kind of plateau. And so now if you want to get returns, you truly need to generate those returns through a proper execution of the investment. You're not going to be able to bank on cap rate compression when you exit five years from now, if anything you've got cap rate expansion, it's fighting against you. That makes it really hard to get returns these days.

James: Yeah. So coming back to this 3000 to $30,000 difference, so once you landed in Houston and you visited the property, is that when you realized that the cost is a lot or you just [22:33unclear]?

Joseph: No. So the realization, here's when the realization happened, we were four units into the rehab on 26 units. That puts us at like 85%...

James: And you had a third party property management company?

Joseph: My third party property manager, again, I'm bringing behind the ears. I don't know what I'm doing. I hired a single family property manager who was making his first attempt at multifamily on our deal. So we had the blind leading the blind. He didn't know what the heck he was doing. He was a bit kind of a conflict of interest because he kept trying to push his own construction company to do the rehab, which was a luxury construction company that did single family which was anyway, so he's doing this rehab, he is the property manager and the construction manager for what we're going on. Because again we're still living in Papua, New Guinea. So by the time I come back and realize what's going on, we're four units completely down to the studs.

And then we are doing our AC permit because you got to do a permit to install ACs. And as part of that, oh actually no, I don't know if you needed to, anyway, he was trying to do everything by the book, which I'm not saying don't do it by the book, do it by the book. But obviously you want to try and save money if you can. So he was doing everything by the book. We did a permit. Part of that permit was environmental, which any real estate syndicator now knows you get an environmental, it's just a check the box thing. It wasn't for us, it wasn't required in our closing, we never did environmental, so it came, we did the environmental came back hot for asbestos. It's funny because it was basically like 30 days. We got notified the property had asbestos. I lost my job. And then in addition to that, the insurance that we had purchased was fraudulent insurance. So we didn't actually have insurance. So yeah, I was in a pretty bad spot.

And then that's when I joined the real estate group and met my partners and the solution to that situation, which is a kind of a rare situation. Well not rare, but sometimes you come into these situations where you can just throw money at the problem to fix it. And so that's what we did. We just, we're like, look, if we sell the property now that we know that it has asbestos and we're four units down, that we can't touch and bring them back online. So I'd have to sell it at 85% occupied. I'm going to take a loss. So I can either take a loss or I can roll the dice, do this massive 30,000 per year renovation because the neighbors behind me, the house values behind us were over almost a million bucks.

So we were in a very affluent area. So we rolled the dice and I had my 401k from after my job at Exxon and cashed the whole thing out when all in on that deal. And did a lot of praying. We knew at that time though, I felt a lot more confident with what we were doing. We knew the numbers, we knew the market, it was just now, I was learning a lot on execution with everything that needs to happen for a major renovation. We're now doing our third major renovation where you're doing almost down to the studs and backups. So it's, yeah, I learned a lot on the first one. Second we did a phenomenal job. And this third one, we're just knocking it out of the park.

James: Got it. Well it's very interesting that the experience you went through on the first one, I'm sure it stuck with you on the next few deals because now you know you shouldn't do certain things. You must do certain process and checklist and make sure that you go to; was that a normal bank loan? Because you know, usually the [26:36unclear]?

Joseph: Man you're asking all kinds of great questions. Our bank was internet bank of USA.

James: Internet Bank of USA, I haven't heard about that.

Joseph: Yeah, we thought they were a joke bank. We're like, is this one of these scams? Because coincidentally there was a group called ABC Funding that was based out of London that was trying to get us to wire them money so they would, it's kind of like these Nigerian Prince things, very convincing. We almost did it. But we finally figured out they were a fraud. But you know, there's a lot of, you know, it's so easy to lose money in real estate. Everybody is trying to rip you off. So...

James: No, but who gave you the funding? I know there's some group out of London trying to get you money, but finally, who gave you the funding?

Joseph: We bought the property with Bank of Internet USA, which is also part of the story here. They had, banks annually will request what is your occupancy, your financials, what is your personal financials? And I just gotten the letter from them like a week before we closed on our refinance to pay them out and start a construction job. Because if we hadn't taken the actions we did at exactly the time we did, they would have known that your guarantor is unemployed with no income, your property is negative cash flowing and you've got asbestos and they probably would try to foreclose on me. Like we were like that close to being in a pickle. But anyway, the bank that did the refi and the rehab for us was a local bank. They're no longer around. They're called First Victoria. They were purchased by Prosperity Bank.

James: Got it. Got it. Wow. All the things that can go wrong went wrong in that deal I guess.

Joseph: Yeah, and that's why I see these guys that are trying to buy deals out of state, these heavy value add deals. And I'm like, it's, it's a lot of work. Like you've got to be there like the one we're doing right now, I was just there this morning. Like you've got to be there on a, if not every week, twice a week, just to keep tabs of what's going on. Especially in the beginning because in the beginning when you're doing your test units and you're trying to see how you want everything it gets pretty crazy. Because that's when you're still setting, you can set things on paper, but then you go from, okay, you've set your budgets too alright, let's actually get in there and tear the wall down. Let's see what's in there. Find any change orders; so we just closed on a 220 units last September. We purchased it for about 75 a door, 4.8 cap rate going in and we're spending almost 40,000 a unit on the rehab and we're going to exit at about an eight cap. So it's a short term deal, about four years in and out through this rehab, increased the rents about $450.

James: So how did you come up with the $40,000 rehab? That seems to be huge.

Joseph: $40,000?

James: Yeah.

Joseph: Yeah. Well for us, this deal was pretty simple in regards to coming up with the scope. Part of the challenge on a lot of deals is, okay, where am I going to spend the money to upgrade so that you're not overspending and you're not being wasteful and just spending money in an area doesn't do anything for the value. Because it's very easy to do that. You can buy all new doors on something doesn't mean you can increase the rent $100. So for us there was the neighboring property that had been renovated, it was just finishing its renovation. And they did the exact same thing. The building was identical; it's the same architect and everything. They were near identical twins. So it was like, when we sent our GC there. We said, okay, do that, copy that. So he went through, he came up with a scope to do that and that's how we came up with about $40,000 a year.

James: So $40,000 is including the exterior, I guess, right?

Joseph: What's that?

James: It's including the exterior renovations?

Joseph: Interior. Exterior. So high level, we've done all new roofs, replacing about half the ACs, all the windows, which is very expensive. All new plumbing. Also very expensive. Adding washer and dryers, gutting the kitchens, all new kitchens, all new appliances, all new floors. We are redoing the floor plan and the kitchen to add the washer and dryer. So we're knocking down, we've knocked down a wall, made the bedroom bigger. So we've completely changed the floor plan of about 50% of the units. We've got, because those are the ones we're in. Now when we get to the other 50% we'll see what we're going to do to those units. What else are we doing?

James: So yeah, that makes a lot more sense because you are doing growth. We are doing, changing the floor plan as well, right? So that makes a lot of sense.

Joseph: Redoing the office, we're actually also building two additional units. They got this giant, one of the properties, it's three properties, it's a portfolio of three and they're all in the same street. One of the three, it used to be unofficially used as a senior living. And so it had this warehouse type building that was a used I guess as the recreation room slash cafeteria. And now it's just vacant. It's just sitting there vacant. So we're going to, at the completion of our project, the last thing we're going to do is go into that building and gut it and create two units out of it from nothing. So that's going to be expensive addition about 50,000 per unit just for those.

James: And what kind of financing are you doing on this? Is it like a [32:35unclear]?

Joseph: So we've got bridge debt on it. We use a group called LaSalle; I think they're out of California, great group. They've been really good to us, so yeah.

James: Got it. Yeah, that's like a huge change, $40,000 a door. So you need to be really skilled in controlling expense and making sure you get the value that you want.

Joseph: We've proven the up side already because again, the neighboring property, we actually, when we did our proforma, our rents we budget them at $100 below theirs. So just to be on the safe side and even that was a 2.2 equity, multiple 23% IRR. So if we actually hit their rents, it's going to be even higher than that. So it's going to be a very, very good project. So we had a lot of confidence going into it that we know the rehab, we know the scope and we know the rents. So then truly it's, we just kind of make sure we execute this amazingly. And we were off to a great start. Sorry I had to interrupt you. We were off to a great start, but then you never know what's going to happen. And so for us, on a morning and then by that evening, I don't know if you recall, Houston got this massive rain, it wasn't a hurricane, but it was a really heavy rain and anybody who's in the Houston area knows that it has an issue with flooding.

So this property first of all, luckily we closed it, we put flood insurance on it. It didn't have it before, but we'd put it on just in case because it's Houston and you never know. I've had properties that are in a flood zone that didn't flood for Harvey and I've had ones that are not in a flood zone, that have got almost flooded. So anyway, we just go ahead and we put flood insurance on most properties we buy these days. We did on that one by the afternoon of when we closed, 22 units had about it inch to two inches of water in them on one of our properties. So we had to rip the sheet rock up to the studs, oh sorry, up 18 inches, vacate 22 units. So right out of the gate, you know, we had this plan, okay; we're going to start the rehab on January one. We're going to spend the next couple of months getting everything in order. We weren't able to do that. So in September when we closed, I think the 19th, the next day we're working on relocating [34:58unclear] help them out with their belongings and then stripping down the units. So the good news of all that, we did get a claim out of it. We've got paid really well on those units, so those units will actually be profitable right out of the gate, extra contingency so to speak.

James: So let's say, I mean out of this $40,000 per door, a budget that you have for this latest deal. Let's say your budget got cut into half, $20,000 a door, right? For this 220 units deal, what would you prioritize in terms of value add? I'm trying to find out what is the most valuable value add that you want to do to at least come back to [35:44unclear]

Joseph: So part of the reason why it was so expensive is that we had so many items that we're deferred with a lot of deferred maintenance. And the problem with deferred maintenance is it doesn't, there's no value there. You're resident, like there's no value and residents are not going to pay you because the roof is new. They should but they're not going to. So for us we had, I don't have the figures, but off the top of my head, I know like the roof was about a thousand a unit. Actually, hold on, let me pull up. I know the plumbing was about 5,000 a unit. And plumbing people will say, oh, there's no value in plumbing. And that's why nobody ever does it. But there is value, if you want somebody to move out quickly then put them in a unit that has very low water pressure and I can almost guarantee they're not going to renew their lease because if they can't take a shower in the morning, it could be the most beautiful unit that they ever seen. But if they can't take a shower in the morning, they're not going to renew. So for the roofs, yeah, we were like 850 a unit on the roots and so we had all these different items that made up that. So that property, I couldn't truly tell you, if I only had $20,000, I wouldn't have bought, I only had 20,000 per unit. I wouldn't have bought the property.

James: So let's say you already buy it and now you are stuck with it. Now you have $20,000...

Joseph: The only way that that property works at that price, is you go big, you got to do a massive renovation. Otherwise I would've had to pay $20,000 less per unit to make it work.

James: Okay. Interesting. And what about the interior unit rehab? What are the rehab that usually prioritize to get the highest rent bump?

Joseph: So for the interior, let me think, kitchens are big, kitchens sell and we were actually playing around with this one. We're trying to do a combination of like a, I don't know if you've seen convection microwave ovens because we've got some efficiency units. And so we've got like six of them that instead of putting a full appliance set that we're going to go and put just a microwave convention oven, so that two burner stove just a two burner glass top deal. And then the fridge and now that'll be it. They won't have any oven; they'll just have that microwave that also has convection. And so that's what we're playing with there. But I guess, I think again, kitchens are huge, having really good fixtures and a good design. And so everything flows.

We've got a professional designer that we're using for the whole thing. We're not doing any of it or ourselves and having all of that kind of flow and have a good look to it as well. So I think if you spend money on the kitchens, you'll be okay because that's where they're at a lot of the time. People spend a lot of time in the kitchen. And then bathrooms as well. So we're doing all new bathrooms, new tile surrounds, and new tubs. And then also for us, one that's going to really hold you back on the money is really tried to do add washer and dryers, especially when you're going to these new units. And for us, like if you don't have the space like we have 650 square feet on most of these one bedrooms we're doing and what we're doing is a stackable front loader.

Front loaders are more expensive. Yes. But we're appealing to a higher profile. Our rents are hold on; I'll tell you what the price per square foot is on them. They are $1.70, so we're getting crazy high rents. And so part of our pitch is appliances. We've got really nice appliances as well. And that includes the washer and dryer. We're not giving them some cheap, front some cheap top loader with the agitator in the middle of that destroys your clothes; people like to have nice appliances. So I think make sure you get washer and dryer and if you don't have space, just be aware that you can stack front loader on top of each other and it takes up next to nothing.

James: Got it. So your strategy is to really spend a lot of money per door and get the highest maximum rent that you can.

Joseph: It's not really a strategy. I mean, it's just a skill set that we know how to do; it's just like knowing what techniques you need to apply on a certain property given the scenario in order to make it successful. If I could have had a 200% return and spent much less then I would have spent much less. I'm not recommending that everybody go and spend $40,000 a unit on every property. I think that's, I was telling our new partner on the construction side, we may never see a $40,000 per unit property again. I mean, I never thought I'd see a $30,000 per unit and that's been the case. Most of our deals have been $10,000 per unit and less. I would say because there's so much education out there from like people like yourself and who owners know now that they can resurface the counters, they can redo the floors, they can do a lot of this. And so it's very rare that you're going to pick up a property that's untouched. And that was part of the story on this one. It was untouched, which it really shouldn't have been considering who the previous owner was. It really should have been previously renovated. But that's another story.

James: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I've done like $10,000 per unit, per door renovation. And I thought that was a lot because we had like a stainless steel, we had crown molding. We had exterior, interior painting. Really like all, I mean not a new roof, but everything else was changed. It looks really, really nice and I just can't imagine $40,000.

Joseph: You find value in the crown molding?

James: Not anymore. I think in the beginning we had the budget, we really liked the way it looks, but I don't think it's really catered for.

Joseph: Yeah, we don't do it. One of the things we're doing here that's again, it's expensive, but we're scraping off the popcorn ceiling. So you've got smooth ceilings. It's the modern look. We're also going with black windows, we had $150,000 change order because we went from when we went from white vinyl windows to black, now we can all agree that material wise there was zero additional costs that that vendor incurred. Other than that, they're now black and black is more trendy now and popular. So now they increased the price 150 grand. But we installed several of them now and they look amazing.

James: I have never seen a black window.

Joseph: Ah, super cool.

James: You must be a new trendsetter. So I need to come and visit your property.

Joseph: When you drive by the property you look, you can't help but notice. I feel like vinyl windows, the white ones, they're nice. And if that's what you can afford, great. But it's going to date your property to an older style. And you know, with what we were doing, it's all about style. And so we had to kind of go the extra mile and be the coolest kind of hip property. We've rebranded the whole thing. It was Candlelight. Now it's called the Melrose. I go in for this kind of South beach kind of, not South beach. What do you call it? The California kind of beach, Laguna Beach kind of theme. So it's going to be really cool. Palm Springs.

James: And what is the price difference between the black and the white?

Joseph: It was about 150 grand across 220 units.

James: Okay. Okay. Do you know like price per window difference?

Joseph: Not off the top of my head.

James: Okay. Okay. That's fine. That's fine. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean I that's something new that I've never seen

Joseph: Because it's going to depend on some units have more windows than others, but I can just average it. You just do one 150 over 220 units wherever that comes out to.

James: Okay. Joseph why don't you tell our audience how to get hold of you and your company?

Joseph: Yes. So the best way is just shoot an email to info@triarcrep, T. R. I. A. R. C. R. E. P, dot com. They can also call us my direct line (281) 836-4181. Those are the best kind of ways to get in touch with them. You can also check out our website triarchrep.com, or we just moved into our first office space, which is a good feeling, a good milestone for anybody when they are growing their company. We just moved into 3,500 square feet. So we're here in Houston, we're at 290 and mangoma that intersection. So if you're an area, shoot me an email, I'd love to meet with you and we can show you our team and show you some of our properties.

James: Awesome. Awesome. Thanks for coming on the show. You added a lot of value in terms of deep value and renovations, one of the things that you guys are doing, and this is really the value, the one you guys are doing. And I just love the value add because you make a lot of money if you execute it right, and if you turn it around.

Joseph: You can lose a lot of money too if you do it wrong.

James: That's what I'm saying, if you execute it right, right. You need a really strong operator. To really manage the expenses, the contractor management, the turnaround process, the rent increase. That's a lot more steps than buying the cookie cutter value add deals. Right?

Joseph: Yeah. It's not like, yeah, because most cookie cutter dealers you can manage just with your operations team turning units when as they come available. I mean, we actually have a full blown schedule for this thing that we got developed, so it's, yeah, it's a major project. Reminds me of, it gives me flashbacks of working for Exxon. We're building that project; we're approaching it with the same mentality, the same project management heavy approach.

James: Got it. Got it. Got it. Well, thanks for coming on and I'm, you know, talk to you soon.

Joseph: Alright. See you James. Bye.

James: Hey, audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth True Value-add Real Estate Investing podcast. Last week we had Kevin Bupp who's an awesome syndicator and a sponsor in the mobile home park space. And he gave a lot of insight on why did he choose mobile home park and what happened during 2008. And you know, how he rebounded in his real estate career and a lot of other things. So you guys want to check out that episode.

Today we have Todd Dexheimer. Hey Todd, welcome to the show.

Todd: How are you doing?

James: Good. Good. Very good. Very good. So Todd owns almost 550 units and he has been buying in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Kentucky, Ohio, Tennessee. Is that right, Todd? I mean, is this all that you're focusing, which is completely different from the usual guests that we get who buys in Florida and Texas, right? So I want to really dive into these States, which is not the usual focus or not the usual point of discussion that you know, a lot of multi-families syndicators and investors have. So let's talk, you know, Todd, why not you introduce yourself in case I missed out something?

Todd: Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, a little bit about my background. I started doing this business actually right when the crash happened. I started in 2008 so the timing was great. At the time people were telling me I was stupid and crazy because the sky was falling, you know, but luckily I didn't listen to them. I, you know, buck the Trendon instead of running away, I ran headfirst in. So started buying single families, did a lot of fix and flips, did a bunch of them, probably 150 or so, and was really, they'll want you to focus on rentals at the whole time. So while I didn't have any money as I flipped, I would just keep a little bit of that cash that I would get from the flip and buy some rentals. And that's how I was able to build up my rental portfolio.

Bought a lot of one to four families, some small apartments, did that all locally in the twin cities. And I got up to maybe close to a hundred units just under that at one point in time before I kind of transitioned them. Yeah. Out of the flips, out of that smaller one to four family stuff and into apartments, I've since sold a few buildings in the twin cities, but I've been buying in mostly out of state; in Cincinnati, Kentucky area Tennessee. That's been my main focus now is just buying... I went from buying kind of 20 to 30 unit type buildings to then now and buying larger hundred-plus unit buildings. So that's my main focus now is looking at a hundred plus unit buildings and doing value add syndication.

James: Awesome. Awesome. I mean, looking at your bio, you also have done some office, some ski resorts, some mobile home park. And finally, I think now you're focusing a lot on, I mean, you have been focusing a lot on apartments, right? And why is that? I mean, didn't the other businesses make a lot more money than apartments?

Todd: Yeah, I mean, everything made plenty of money. They all make sense. And that's the beautiful thing about real estate and the confusing thing about real estate is it all make sense, right? I mean, you know, I can make a lot of money in office, I can make a lot of money in retail and warehouses and all kinds of stuff, and I can make money in development and owning land and mobile home parks. I mean, you talked about Kevin Bob, he's a fantastic guy. He's making a lot of money, I'm assuming, in mobile home parks. And so that's the beautiful thing about real estate, but you got to pick your focus, right? And so, yeah, I did some development, I did some land, like you said, I owned a ski resort, which is just super random.

James: Do you still own it?

Todd: I don't, I sold it. It was a distraction. It was a beautiful place. Look, it was like 190 acres or something like that. It was beautiful. A really nice river ran through one of the edges of the property. It was nice hills and it was an amazing property, but you know, it was a distraction and you've got to get focused. And I actually talked to my...

James: Can you hold on? Sorry, my dog is disturbing. Hey, Todd so it looks like you have done, you know, quite different types of business, right? Like an office, some ski resort and some mobile home park and you know, you started with smaller common, complex and all that. But finally you ended up focusing a lot on a common complexes. Right. And why is that?

Todd: Yeah. because apartments make you a lot of money. No, the answer is I needed to focus on one main thing. And I could've chosen office, I could've chosen retail and warehouse or buying, you know, distressed land, like the ski resort and I did all that. But there's just no focus when you're doing just random stuff like that. And I wanted to really focus and I wanted to build something big. And so ultimately, it was a choice of, okay, what do I really enjoy and what do I really want to focus on? You know, the beautiful thing about real estate, there's so many different options, every way makes money.

And I've gotten friends that do note buying. I've got friends that, you know, flip houses that wholesale, that do land development, everything. And they all make a lot of money if they focus on it and they do it well. So that's why; I just had to focus. I just had to have one niche that I picked and ultimately I was most attracted and most led to multifamily.

James: Awesome. Awesome. So looking at the States that you have invested right now, I'm not sure whether, you know, like the popular state, I would say like Texas, Florida, Las Vegas, Arizona, Phoenix and all that, right? I mean, how is the market different compared to this populous state? How's the market in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Kentucky, Ohio, Tennessee, different from the other markets that a lot of people know?

Todd: Yeah. So first of all, Minnesota is a totally different market than all of them. Minnesota is a extremely competitive market. You and I talked offline. I mean, it's a super competitive market. There's very little inventory, very competitive. Cap rates are extremely compressed. almost impossible to find deals. Not that you can't, but I mean, extremely hard. There's just not a lot of deals that sell, especially when you're talking a hundred-plus unit deals, just not a lot of deals itself.

James: The twin cities are there, right?

Todd: Yup. This is Minneapolis and St Paul, the twin cities. You know, if you go way out state, it's a different story, but you don't want to invest there cause nobody lives there. So if you're going to remain populous, which is Minneapolis, St Paul or the Rochester area, which is where the male clinic has...a lot of people know what the male clinic is. It's one of the best hospitals in the US, those are the two areas of most people are investing in and it's next to impossible to find a deal.

James: What is so special about these twin cities? I mean, now it's like what

Phoenix and Las Vegas, but past three, four years, I mean, I used to read Marcus and Millichap report and they always say the top city to invest in is twin cities. And I can never Google it. And now you're telling me that it is the twin city, right? What's the real definition of it, where it's located and what is so special? Why is it the top city?

Todd: Yeah, well, look, I mean I think we're the 16th largest Metro in the US, if I'm correct and I think we've got 3.8 million people in the whole Metro area, which we called the twin cities. We have a large portion of Fortune 500 companies are based here. It went down recently because there have been some mergers, but they're essentially still here. It's just a couple of companies that merged. So we've got a very large amount of Fortune 500 companies. It's just a stable, steady place, right? We're never going to have big population gains, but we don't have population loss and our rents never go skyrocket up. I mean, they've skyrocketed recently, but we call skyrocketing three and a half percent increase, you know, that's skyrocketing for the twin cities as far as rent goes.

But we're going to see, you know, that just stable, that really stable, it's never that up and down. It's not like a Phoenix, it's not like a Florida, it's not like that. Just that roller coaster ride, we're just straight. And so people like that. Our occupancy rate in the twin cities is, I mean, I think we've now come down a little bit, but we're at about 97% occupancy up until fairly recently.

James: On average. Wow, that's really good.

Todd: That's amazing. People couldn't find places to live. I mean, if you were an okay landlord, you were full. The only people that weren't full were just the slum Lords and even they were close to being full.

James: And that probably could be the reason why, you know, you can't find inventory, right? Just there's no inventory. Right.

Todd: Yeah. Yeah, it's good. So the difference, that's one market. And then, the other markets that I'm really focused on are going to be like Cincinnati. Now as you start to really look, Cincinnati's in some of the lists now, market is to be looking at, and I just looked up the other day, like the cities with the best population growth, job growth, and Cincinnati was on there. So you're starting to see the markets that I'm invested in beyond those lists and they weren't on there before. So basically what it was is through my research, I wanted to find markets that hit all the criteria that I'm looking for. That's job growth. That's population growth, that's strong government and independent support for businesses, bringing in businesses. That's good rent affordability. That was huge on my list. I wanted cities that had good rent affordability, opportunity to purchase assets that were cash flowing with decent cap rates.

I wasn't necessarily looking for like a 10 cap, but I want decent cap rates. I wanted a market that I didn't feel like compressed to the point of where when we do see whatever recession is coming next, that they're gonna go way back up. And so those were the markets that I really tried to focus on. And that's what I feel like I've found. Now, since I found them, they have definitely compressed a lot more. You know, it's challenging, but when I first started in those markets, there's a lot of opportunities and there still is.

James: Got it. Got it. So how was your experience from going from buying and flipping houses into syndication, right? Why did you make that leap into syndication?

Todd: Yeah, flipping houses suck. It's a lot of work.

James: I mean, I've tried two times and I promised myself I'm not going to do it again.

Todd: Yes. It's just so much head damage in flipping houses. And can you make some good money? Yeah, I made some good money. I'm not gonna say I didn't, but there's just a lot of liability, a lot of head damage. You're dealing with a lot of contractors and you're in use always, and homeowners and emotions and it's just...you're always grinding. You're never...not that like I care about it, I enjoy grinding. I mean, I do it in multifamily right now, but I feel like I'm actually getting somewhere; where with the flips I felt like I was on that hamster wheel or I got to buy one and I got to immediately find another one and I'm always like running in a circle. And so that was kind of the reasoning that I wanted to get out of it.

Plus I'm paying, you know, short term capital gains or ordinary income, I just didn't like that. Now multifamily syndication made a lot of sense because I had a lot of investors. When I was doing flips, I was bringing in private money to my flips. I wasn't using hard money. I was using just private money. People I've met that wanted to invest in my deals and that's how I got them involved. And so when I wanted to transition into multifamily, it was pretty easy to say, Hey, this is what I'm doing. If you want to come on board or not. And all my investors said, yeah, let's do it.

Ultimately that was what James I wanted to do from the very start. When I first started this real estate journey back in 2007 when I started reading books, before I ever bought anything, I read several multifamily books, one by David Lindel called multifamily millions and another one by Ken McElroy called ABC's of real estate investing and I loved those books and that said, this is where I want to go. And I had always been kind of obsessed with it, but I had no clue how I was going to take down $1 million-plus building. And so, I just kinda got scared and let it fall by the wayside.

James: So how did you take that leap? Who helped you and was it like a aha moment? One day you wake up and you bought it or?

Todd: I had a business partner and ultimately it was time for us to kind of separate and go our own ways. I wanted to do something different than the flips and wanted to take this multifamily leap. I started by buying some smaller, you know, as I said, 10 to 20 to 30 unit buildings and that was making a big step there. And then just started like listening to people on podcasts and going, no, why am I doing this? I hired a business coach too and I remember talking to him and going, I think he said, like, what? Why are you buying another 20 unit? And I said, well, you know, like I got to keep on buying these and then eventually I'll get up to, you know, hundred-plus unit buildings. Why not do it now? And I'm like, Oh yeah, why not do it now? So it's just like somebody just needed to tell me like, what are you doing? Let's just do it now. Like, and it wasn't like, Oh wow, that's a scary thing. When he said it, I was like, well, yeah, yeah, let's just do it now. You're right. Yeah. So I don't know, sometimes you just gotta be told like, what are you doing? Just go do it.

James: Just go do it. Yeah. You just need someone to, I mean...

Todd: Just a little kick in the pants sometimes.

James: A little kick or a knock on the head, hey, you can do it now. Right. Why not you do it? Right. So that's very interesting. So what are the things that you when you started syndication, right? I mean, when you look at a deal, when you get a deal, I mean, first of all, you're already finding it hard to find inventory, right? But whenever you find an inventory that comes to you, what kind of things do you look at?

Todd: I'm sure kind of the same as most people. I'm looking, you know, beyond the city and the neighborhood, which I already kind of mentioned. I'm looking for that population growth, that job growth, I'm really digging into the neighborhood too. And I want the neighborhood to have the same fundamentals that I'm looking for in the city. I want that specific neighborhood to have too and low crime and that growth is what I'm looking for. So beyond that though, as property-specific, I'm looking for an opportunity that has something wrong with it. And it might have really high expenses that I can take down. You know, utilities are a big one where people aren't, you know, we can put some like led stuff and we can put low flow toilets and we can do energy-efficient stuff that's really going to cut down on our bills and increase our ROI.

We can do RUBS which is ratio utility billing and where we're charging back to the tenants, those people who don't know. And then potentially, you know, depending on how the property is being run, there might be some other potential small things that we can do. And then of course on the income side, we're looking at can we raise rents by doing improvements to the property? We don't like to raise rents just to raise rents, I like to provide something good for my tenant base. And then, you know, there might be other things, like there might be a just occupancy issues that the other management company or other owner just wasn't on top of things, collection issues. Potentially. there are crime issues or there's other just management issues at the property where they have the wrong tenant basin and we can correct those problems that are happening.

James: Got it, got it. I mean, out of these five cities, five states that you invest in, is there any difference in landlord friendliness within this city?

Todd: You know, they're actually all fairly similar as far as this landlord friendliness. They all have different quirks to them. You know, some of them might have to give a like a five-day notice to the tenant before you can evict them. Some of them, you can't set their stuff out on the curb right away, you have to give them, you know, like in Minneapolis, if you evict a tenant and they leave stuff at the property, you have to hold onto that stuff for 28 days. That doesn't have to stay in the property. You can put it in storage or whatever. They have time, it used to be 60 days but they have time to be able to get their belongings. So they're all a little bit different. But I would say, all in all, they're kind of probably less right in the middle.

You know, I hear some other States are being better. For instance, Texas I hear is really good. But yeah, you just kind of raised your eyebrows and rolls your eyes a little bit and I've heard that too by other people. And I think what happens is, you know, and not saying every state is the same cause there are some states that I'm sure are really hard on landlords, but I think if you know and understand the laws and understand what you can and can't do to get your tenants out and that type of stuff, most States are just fine. Like it's not that difficult to move tenants. So, for instance, Minnesota, a lot of people have that kind of misunderstanding. I don't know where it comes from that you can't kick a tenant out in the winter and that's not true.

My company just evicted one of our tenants and there's date to be sat out is, I think December 12th. You know, so you can, you know, it's winter here. I mean, December 12th is...next week is going to be zero degrees out. So, you know, you just have to understand it and if you understand the landlord laws, the tenant laws, you're going to be just fine. So get the right people around you, surround yourself with the right people.

James: Got it. Got it. And also, I see in your bio that you have a passion to teach undeserved youth and adults on how to create financial independence. So can you explain about that?

Todd: Yeah. You know, so I've volunteered for a nonprofit called Junior Achievement, a lot of people know that and my passion and I don't know exactly where I'll take it, but my passion is just to continue to do that and raise awareness, raise money and for people who don't have the opportunity to have what we have and do what we do. A lot of people don't even know a business or being a business owner, being an entrepreneur is even like a possibility for them. And it's possible for everybody. Cause there's a lot of people that come from nothing especially, you know, I see people from different countries come here that have nothing or start with nothing and they do amazing things. And there are people living in this country that just don't even think it's possible. Like they don't know that it's there. So I want to just really educate people.

The other thing is I love to figure out somehow how to get financial education into the schools. And that's a tall task, I know, and it may never happen, but that's one of the things I really want to do. I used to be a high school teacher. I really think it's important to teach our youth about how to be responsible financially and just about the amazing opportunities that there are out there.

James: Yeah, absolutely. Especially in the US right. Where it's a capitalist country, right? Anybody can, you know, make a lot of money, as long as they're willing to work hard, you find the right people to be coached on, right. You're on the right path, you work hard, you should be able to make a lot of money. I mean, it's completely different from a lot of other countries out there. I mean, people may not appreciate how much freedom to create wealth in the US unless you have travel outside and you have lived in other countries, right? So a lot of people did not know that, so that's really good. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people take it for granted and a lot of people do think that somebody else owes them something.

Todd: Yeah. It's a hard mindset to change. I mean one of my very first tenants, and this is partly where it came from, one of my very first tenants in a single-family house, she moved in. She had section eight and she said, "You know, I'm not going to have this section eight for very long so could you take me when I drop out of section eight?"

I said, "Oh, absolutely, yeah, as long as your income and you meet the requirements, no problem."

"Okay, I'm going to do that. I'm getting my real estate license. I'm going to get out of this. My mom had section eight, my grandma had section eight and I don't want to be part of this circle."

She never got out of section eight. I had to actually evict her because she wasn't even paying her portion of the rent and I don't know where she is at today. I'm hoping she's out of section eight but my guess, my gut is she's probably still in section eight and never learned really what to do and how to get out of it. And I'd like to be able to help end that cycle.

James: Yeah, that's a very good thing that you're doing because I think sometimes they need someone in the business circle to go back and, you know, just tell the possibilities out there in the business world. So, yeah, that's very important. So, Todd, when you look at the multifamily apartment, I'm presuming you're doing a lot of value add deals, right? Is there anything that you find in terms of what the most valuable value add when you're doing all this turnaround?

Todd: I mean, it's different for every project, but one of the things I like the most is trying to find expense, just expenses that we can cut but efficiently cut. Like I don't want to just cut repairs and maintenance because those are going to come back. And they're going to probably come back and bite me because I tried to cut those and be cheap. But now if we can do things, we can cut down by buying in bulk, by buying the right materials, by being efficient at our scheduled repairs versus just randomly doing it when it finally breaks. If we get into a more of a rhythm and a schedule, we can actually cut expenses, which a lot of people don't understand. Like how is that possible? Cause we're always on the property and always scheduling things.

But preventative maintenance is actually going to save you money versus having something that breaks, I mean, think about a furnace, right? If you go and you change the furnace filters, every month, you're going to extend the life of your furnace by potentially 10 or more years just by doing something like that. So that's one big thing. The other big thing with expenses and this is my favorite one, and I already mentioned this, is the utilities and cutting back on a lot of the utility costs by doing, there's a lot of different things we can do. We can replace the toilets with the low flows, we can put on a water reading system where it can tell and it can send us a rating if we have a water leak. You know, just silly things like that that seem like they shouldn't, you know, save you that much money, end up saving you a ton of money.

And the reason why this stuff is my favorite, the expense reduction is my favorite is because this is a recession-proof system, right? If we cut our expenses and a recession whacks us, guess what? Our expenses are gonna go way up. But if we jack our rents up today and a recession happens, what happens with our rents? They go back down. Right? And they do, and I don't care what people tell you that multifamily rents don't go down, they do. And so, so raising rents while I like that, and I'm not going to tell you we don't raise rents, but we know that by cutting expenses down, as long as we do it the right way and not just cut to cut because we want to be cheap, but if we do it the right way, that's recession-proof and that's going to continue to keep our NOI high during the recession.

James: That's a very interesting perspective because yeah, you're right. I mean, rents can go up and down, right? But once you optimize your expenses, you're probably going to be, you know, sticking to it, right? So you could invest on your expenses. That's a very interesting perspective. That's good. So Todd, let's go to a bit more personal side of it. So do you have any secret sauce to success? I mean on your personal side?

Todd: You know, I mean, there's no secret sauce, right? It's all out there. It's all about yeah, several different...if you can do the few things, focus, following one course until success...keeping yourself completely focused that's extremely difficult, right? But because we got so many distractions out there, but limiting those as much as we can. You know, never giving up, always pushing on, always continuing to persevere, being consistent and persistent. Those are all really big. I mean, it's very easy in this industry and in any industry to get kind of discouraged. You know, you get beat out on 10, 20, 30, 40 properties and you don't get one and you get discouraged. Look, I haven't bought a property since May. Do you think I'm excited that I haven't bought a property since May? No. I would love to have a property right now under contract, but I don't.

But I'm not discouraged. I'm going to keep on going and keep on pushing on and keep on putting on offers until I get one. So I think those are just really important things to focus on. I think obviously you need to be clear, you need to have goals, you need to understand where you're trying to go with this business. Those are all so important. So there's no secret. I wish there was and I found it, but you know, it's hard work. Being an entrepreneur can be lonely. That's out there all alone. You're getting your butt kicked in but it's a fun business at the same time, there's a lot of reward in the end when you're building something bigger than yourself.

James: Yeah. It's interesting. And even on the previous podcast, we were talking about how the world has changed compared to like past five to six years to now. Because now with social media you feel a lot of FOMO, right? Because you start seeing people are closing deals and doing deals and you are like, Oh, I didn't buy since March. You know, so you have to really, really control your fear of missing out. Especially when you can see everybody, what's happening.

Todd: Stop comparing yourself to others. For one, you don't know what others are doing. You don't know what type of ownership structures they have or anything like that. And when I look at my properties and I really probably dive into them, I have a really good ownership structure on my properties and some people that have three times the amount of units, four times the amount of units than I do, they probably have less ownership, less overall, whatever you want to call it, equity than I potentially have. And so if you want to compare yourself to others, you're always going to be disappointed. You just have to look at yourself and go, I'm happy where I'm at today. You know, where are the goals that I have for myself in the future and where am I today and what do I need to do to keep on pushing on? That's how you gotta look at it. If I look at what you're doing and what everybody else is doing, what Kevin Bop is doing, I'm going to be disappointed in myself. I'm going to want to buy these properties and I'm going to end up doing stupid stuff.

James: Correct. Yeah. I mean sometimes it's surprising. Sometimes people can claim they own a half a billion dollars in assets, but he may be poorer than the guy who owns a hundred units on his own. Cause they had half a billion, they probably own like a what, 10-20% out of it and out of the 20% they probably own like...

Todd: Or half a percent.

James: 30% out of it. And out of that 30% they probably gave so much money for all the capital raises that they are hiring. And they probably wouldn't do the 0.001 of that billion. Right. So you know, I mean just audience, I mean, you guys really want to make sure that you don't get caught in all this marketing hype that you're seeing in Facebook or LinkedIn. So the real guys are really working. So you'll be able to identify the real guys just by talking to them in terms of what are they doing and how are they portraying themselves? And, you know, talking to their passive investors.

Todd: Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a lot of noise, like you said.

James: It's a lot of noise and sometimes the rise of social media, I mean, you have a Facebook group. I have a Facebook group. Sometimes they know the amount of I mean just in general, Facebook itself, there's so much of noise out there that it creates a lot of FOMO in a lot of people, so you have to be really watching out for that. Yeah. Was there any proud moment in real estate that you think I'm really, really proud of that moment? I'm really proud that I did something that's gonna stay with you for a long time?

Todd: Boy. you know, I guess just getting started from the beginning is probably what I'm most proud of is that well, like I said at the beginning, everybody goes 2008 that was an amazing time. you're a lucky guy. But at the same time ask yourself this, did you invest in 2008? You know, most everybody listening has to say no because they were either, well, maybe too young or they're running the other way. And I was young in 2008 but I just took that risk, I believed in it and I saw what was possible. And so that's probably what I'm most proud of when everybody else was running the other way, I ran right to the fire hydrant.

James: Yeah, yeah, that's true. I mean, even now it's hard to find deals. I mean, it was the same thing in 2008, it's hard to find deals. Even in 2010, it's hard to find deals, all the time. It's always hard to find deals.

Todd: Well that's the thing is, and you said it, that's perfect right there. And I'm glad you said that because it's always hard to find deals. It's always easy to say there was a lot of deals back then. We might be saying in 2025 that every deal in 2019 and 2020, we should have bought. We don't know right now, but in 2011, 2008, you know, all those years while it was happening, there was not a lot of great deals to buy because the market was totally different than it is today. And you didn't know where it was going to go. You just didn't know. You have to buy on today's fundamentals. You can't buy on to tomorrow's fundamentals because we don't know where that's going.

James: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Hey Todd, why don't you tell our audience how to get hold of you?

Todd: Yeah, so I've got several things. If they want to listen to my podcasts, they can definitely listen to that. It's Pillars of Wealth Creation. They can reach out to me if they want to learn more about my company and invest in that kind of stuff. They can reach out to me at my websites venturedproperties.com or they can email me, [email protected]. And then I do coaching as well, run some mastermind groups and coaching. And if they want to learn more about that, they can either email me at the email address or they can go to my website, which is coachwithdex.com as well.

James: Awesome. Todd, thanks for coming on the show, you added tons of value. Give us a lot of perspective of different markets that I'm not familiar with and I'm sure a lot of listeners are not familiar with and how did you, you know, came up in life and you know, you have been giving back as well. So really happy for that. Thank you.

Todd: Yeah, definitely. Lots of fun. Appreciate you having me on.

James: Hi, listeners and audience, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth True Valued Real Estate Investing Podcast. Last week, we had Rich Fishman(?) with 8,000 units. Almost half of which he owns by himself and he had bought over 20 years across five to six different states. And he gave us an outstanding overview of what happened during the crash of 2008. Was it true that everybody needs a roof above their heads? And that's what a lot of gurus are telling us in multifamily or is it true that multifamily has the lowest default rate? You will definitely need to listen to that podcast. Because he went through the whole downturn with all his multifamily(s) and came back up after the cycle and he gave a lot of awesome perspectives. Today, we have Kevin Bob. Hey Kevin, do you want to introduce yourself?

Kevin: Hey James, I'm excited to be here. Yeah, I'll give you the quick overview for sure. So, I have been investing full time in real estate going for on 20 years now and I got started like a lot of folks did with single-family investments. It was just what my mentor was doing. It's what he was good at and what he taught me and so I didn't reinvent the wheel. I did exactly what he told me to do and that evolved into multifamily investments and other types of commercial real estate. That led me up to the crash of 2008. That's a very challenging time. It kind of was reborn in 2011, 2012 and was introduced then to mobile home parks. Which is what we focus on today. So, for the past seven years now, we've been solely focused on mobile home communities. We own parks in thirteen different places throughout the US and that's our niche of choice as of now.

James: Awesome. Awesome. I mean, Kevin is being very humble. So, just to give you guys some background when I was in my W2 job, one of the first podcasts that I listened to was Kevin's podcast. I mean, the podcast is called Real Estate Investing for Cash Flow With Kevin Bob and it's an awesome podcast. It focuses a lot on commercial real estate and I really learned a lot when I was in W2 and I was listening to it in the car. Are you still doing the podcast, Kevin?

Kevin: I am. Absolutely. I do two podcasts. So, I do the Real Estate Investing for Cash Flow Podcast and then about three and a half years ago I thought it was a good idea to start a second podcast as if I wasn't busy enough already. And I started the Mobile Home Park Investing Podcast, which is specific to that topic.

James: Got it. Got it.

Kevin: James, I remember the first day we met. Not to interrupt you but I always joke with you every time I see you because I got a weird memory. I forget a lot of things but I remember the odd things and I do those free Friday calls. I've been doing it for like five years now. And I remember that's how you and I originally met. It was during one of those 30-minute calls on a Friday and I don't recall why I remember this part of our call but I had been making lunch with my Bluetooth in while we were talking about a multifamily deal that you were taking down in San Antonio, Texas.

James: Yeah, it was my second deal. I was buying 174 and have you found it on our yellow letter marketing campaign. It is very interesting because when you had your podcast, you announced it that you're giving thirty minutes of your time and I was like, 'Wow, that's awesome. I'm going to talk to a celebrity.' Right now, I do offer like fifteen minutes of my time for whoever wants to talk to me. You just have to send me an email at jamesatachieveinvestmentgroup.com. We're not big celebrities. We're just normal people.

Kevin: I get as much value from those calls as the person on the other side. That's how I like to think and you just never know who you're going to meet on the other end of the phone, right? I mean, that's how I that's how you and I met. You just never know and so I think that you have to keep that normalcy in your life and I enjoy those calls. I've met a lot of great people on the way.

James: Surprisingly, I still remember the day you called me and the moment you called me. I'm not sure why but that was like probably five, six years ago. And I don't remember my other calls.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah. I have been on for five years. Yeah.

James: Yeah, that's awesome. Awesome. So, I mean, I want to dive deeper into mobile home parks. I can see you have like a 150 million real estate transaction. Is it all mobile home park? How many parks do you own right now? And can you give those kinds of details?

Kevin: No, we don't have. Our current portfolios are not 150 million. That's just that's like my transaction for the principal. You know, investments over the years.

James: Thanks for being honest, Kevin. Because a lot of people misuse those big numbers to do their marketing and then we find out they don't have anything. They're probably on a passive investor and that's really awesome that you're being very upfront with that.

Kevin: Yeah, I'm the majority principal in the parks we own as far as on the GP side and things like that. So, we'll get that clarity out there as well.

James: Awesome.

Kevin: We're not really sellers. So, to answer your questions about what we own today. We've been teetering around like the 2,000 mark. We go above it. We go below. We have a park that going to be closed in a week and a half. We sold a park earlier this year and then we're going be selling one in probably February next year. That's in contract currently. We got one that we're closing on in 45 days, which is 215 lots and so we keep teetering around this 1900-2000 mark. We've really been evolving our portfolio by selling off some of the smaller properties and by selling off some of the properties that we don't really have an interest in scaling in a particular marketplace or maybe it's just one that just doesn't fit our model moving forward. I don't know how else to answer it other than that. So, that's where we're at today. We're really long-term cash flow investors, though. That really is our business model. It just as far as the selling side of things I like to take advantage of an opportunity when it arises. That's one thing I did not do before 2008. I never would sell anything and it came back to bite me at that point. So, I am not a seller. However, I will sell when the timings right the price is right.

James: Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about that experience. Because I heard about that in your podcast and so you are doing single-family homes before 2008 and you were doing very well.

Kevin: And multifamily but mostly single-family was our focus. That was our business model. It's what we were very competent at. We had acquired a few hundred multifamily doors over the years almost by accident. We didn't really put much effort into it because deals would just come our way like small multifamily stuff. Thirty-six units forty-eight-unit type properties that we just kind of threw into our rental pool.

However, the biggest part of our model and the thing that took the most time and energy was a single-family. You know, buying the single-family rental properties and managing a portfolio across multiple different counties was just very inefficient. And it's unfortunate because I think we just got very complacent with our model. You know, we were we felt we were really good at it and we never took the time to be honest with ourselves about how inefficient that was and that we should have just taken our efforts and converted them over to multifamily at that given moment. I think that we would have fared through the downturn a lot better. The single-family properties… it wasn't really the single family that sunk us during the downturn. It was a whole mixture of ingredients. You know, Florida was ground zero for the crash. A lot of our properties, not only did they lose within a year but they also were upside down. Our leverage point on the front side was originally somewhere in between the 65% to 68% range. So, we were very low leverage. Most of them were upside down underwater within a year.

Another big thing in Florida that really was a major impact on us was there were a lot of speculative single-family builds happening back then. I don't know if you remember back in that heyday. I guess you could say that was back when a new build property in like Vegas or Phoenix or Southwest Florida would literally flip three times before it was ever even occupied. Before it was ever finished. It was crazy. There was like thousands of new home builds happening in Southwest Florida for a population that wasn't really coming in. So, the big nail in the coffin for us back then was a lot of these builders that had these properties who weren't selling and they started renting them out. And so now, they started pulling the populations away from our rental properties and they offered better incentives. Because what they had was a new product. So, we had an occupancy issue. We were under wonder water value and like it's just a perfect storm and it was ugly. It wasn't fun at all. And the banks at that point weren't willing to work with us. This was like a year within entering into this downturn. The banks didn't have loss mitigation departments. They weren't prepared for this and so we struggled with a majority of our lenders to even do work out deals or loan modifications.

James: Yeah, I read some books about how the lenders can be nasty during the downturn but now they're super nice.

Kevin: I think they got a lot more flexible. Because they had to. In the first year of the downturn, no one knew how bad it was really going to get. It was like 'Are we at the bottom? Are we at the bottom?' I feel like that question was asked for many years before it's like, 'wow, it's 2011 and it's still messed up like things are still fairly bad.' You know, I think it took the bank's a while to realize that and they even put the infrastructure in place to manage all these defaults. It was a disaster for the banks as well. I mean, they had more defaults than… they had to build entire departments within their companies to manage this onslaught of default. So yeah, it was a challenging time for everybody.

James: Do you think you could have done better if you had a lot of non-recourse loans?

Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as far as my personal assets being attacked and things of that nature absolutely. And I think there is also a lot more flexibility with the non-recourse lenders to work with a borrower because they have quite a bit of leverage. You know, another thing that hurt us pretty badly on our part was a lot of our apartment properties and a lot of the commercial loans and a lot of times we would package up like eight to ten or twelve single-family properties and put a commercial loan on and it takes money out. That was kind of our model. A lot of that debt was shorter-term recourse debt. It was five years,you know, either resets or five-year balloons, twenty-year [inaudible10:23].

What happens we didn't default on multifamily. However, after all the credits were going bad on the single-family stuff and we started having issues there. We couldn't get new loans when the time came due for them a couple of years later. We couldn't get any debt in place. We had to sell things for basically fire sale prices and give them away. We basically either gave it back to the bank or did some minor workouts, did short sales or had to sell at fire-sale prices. It is what it is. I learned a lot from that period and things move on and I've learned a lot from it. And I think I'm a stronger investor and a better investor nowadays because of it.

James: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you brought up three or four cities that are very, very high growth right now. We're at the late stage of this cycle. Which is similar to 2008 before that. They are Phoenix, Las Vegas and Florida, right. So, do you think we're in the same stage right now because they are one of the highest growth rental rates for multifamily? I would say I'm not sure how much you would be able to compare multifamily at that time.

Kevin: I think the reasons behind the crash back then are a little different. I mean, back then the lenders were so loosey-goosey. Because anyone could get a loan and I mean anyone. Even a waiter who just started the job yesterday. Who had no provable income could get a loan on a property. You know that that's one thing that hasn't gone back to the way it used to be, lending restrictions are still very tight. So, I don't think that we have that fear. I'm not an economist and by no means am I an expert here but I don't think our fear should be related to anything that was similar to back in the 2007, 2008 crisis and what caused that.

So, I'm not sure what it could be. I know that there's a huge demand for multifamily. There's a pent-up demand for supply still in a lot of these markets based on population growth. I think that the bigger risk lies and like A class stuff or like some new developments as far as like, you know, the game of musical chairs. It's about who's ultimately left holding the bag. I think that what you do as far as like BNC grade apartment complexes are very similar to our business and that as long as you provide a clean, safe and high-quality product at affordable prices. There's always going to be a demand for it no matter what happens. I'm a firm believer in that and that's played out time and time and time again and that you were making mention of the last guest you had on. I'm going to give listen to the show but what was his take? You know, what did he tell you was the ultimate outcome of his multifamily holdings through that downturn?

James: Yeah, it was very hard for him during that downturn. I mean, He has to cut down a lot of it and if I remember correctly the default rate was pretty high. It was like almost 8% where a lot of people did lose their property to the banks.

Kevin: I wonder if that was because they were over leveraged but I'm not talking about him though. I was talking about the operators. See that's it leading up to that recession and the last time people were overpaying for apartment complexes and if you recall one of the big the big hot trends were buying an apartment and doing a condo conversion. So, you saw people buying apartment complexes for valuations that had no relative nature to the actual NOI that was in place. It was all based on a pro forma exiting out as individual condos and a lot of those condo things failed miserably. Anyway, how did the guy you interviewed fare?

James: I think he was not talking about condo conversion. He was just talking…

Kevin: I mean as far as multifamily investments. How did he fare? How did his investment go?

James: He did say that it was pretty bad for him and for a lot his friends and who were buying at that time.

Kevin: Specific markets or…?

James: Across the country and he has been down twenty years right now. I mean, he has like a thousand units right now. The key thing is I mean everybody says 'everybody needs a roof over their head.' But he's a says that people become creative on how to get a roof above that they're head. They double up. They live in their basement. So, it's not like everybody's going…

Kevin: Yeah. Well, I think another thing that changes is the quality of your prospect changes as well. You know, people lose their jobs. People miss payments on their credit cards. They get bad credit. They get into this revolving cycle or downward spiral. And so, although everyone does need a roof over your head, the quality of that prospect might change. It might actually deteriorate over time but what you can really get to fill that unit which a lower quality resident typically is going to equate in a higher turnover, rate higher expense and maintenance costs associated with running that property. So, I think that there are other factors that are derivative of a downturn even though everyone does really need a roof over their head.

James: Do you think the optimism that you had or the entire market had before 2008 crash like in 2006… I'm sure everybody was optimistic. Nobody knew about the subprime mortgage. Because nobody really knew in detail, right? Do you think that the optimism that people had during those few years before the crash is the same as now?

Kevin: There's some Deja vu that I've had and I think maybe a lot of that has to do with even just watching like social media feeds and things of that nature. A lot of the kudos and congrats are given to folks just because they like buy a property and that's only a part of it.

James: They just started running. They haven't done the marathon yet.

Kevin: It not what it looks like today but it's can you execute the plan accordingly? What does it look like three years from now? Because you bought something doesn't mean that you've won yet. It's easy enough to get on the front side. So, that's a different form of that optimism.

James: Social media has increased the FOMO syndrome.

Kevin: Yeah, that's it. Success seems to be equated on social media to actually just doing a deal. Whatever it means to get the deal done: overpaying for it, over raising investor capital, putting capital your investors capital risk. I mean buying bad markets and I think that was a very similar sentiment that was shared by a lot of people back prior to the crash. 'If we don't buy now, there's like anything left. We're going to get priced out of every market and then will never own real estate. Let's buy whatever we can. Let's get that 95% loan.' So again, the lending standards have not gone back to what they were then. Which was a big cause of that crash. But I do think that there's some Deja vu that I've had. You know, the FOMO thing… the fear that you're missing out, that's real.

We've seen things be much more competitive over the past year. We bought nine properties last year and we wound up buying two this year. So, we did get side-tracked a little bit this year with building a property management company. And we that's another discussion but even then, I don't think we would have bought more than maybe three or four properties. If that was our sole focus but we're very conservative. I think we had seven or eight deals in contracts that we ended up killing… for various reasons. There just a lot of hairy things out there and you can make money with hairy deals but you got to really know what you're getting a deal go to.

James: Yeah, exactly. I mean, that the experience of going through the crash will make you're really a conservative person, right? Because people have never gone through it [inaudible17:59] including me. I didn't go through it. So, I didn't know how painful it was, right? But I do read a lot of publications and try to feel the fear at that time. I mean, you can be too much of an optimist. I'm not so engaged in the height of optimism right now. So, you did single family and you went through this 2008 crash and suddenly you started doing mobile home park. Why that mobile home park asset class and why not go back to the single-family apartments?

Kevin: Well, it's a great question. So, I answer the second part of that question first about why not go back to like single family properties. You know, I finally had an internal point of reflection probably like two years after the crash started. There were a couple years where it was pretty challenging to even think about what was happening in my life. So, there were a couple years, I don't like to say that I put my head in the sand and buried it. But somewhere around, 2010 to 2011 I would go through like a reflection point in my life where I tried to look back and just really be honest myself like, 'what I should have done differently.' What I ultimately felt went wrong and I came to a quick realization and I kind of knew it back then. You know, you're comfortable and complacent you know we should have made the switch. Our model is very inefficient with the single-family properties. You know, running multiple maintenance crews and management crews amongst many different counties. You know, having a home here, a home over there, home over there, hundred something that way.

It was incredibly inefficient and it was very hard to scale. You know like just going out and trying to buy one by one by one and buying a hundred and twenty, a hundred and fifty, two hundred single family properties is a lot of work. That's two hundred individual closings. That takes a lot of effort to make that happen. And you'll being honest with myself, I knew that those same efforts could have been multiplied like 10 x but by actually putting that effort into multifamily and that multifamily is much more efficient to operate. It could truly provide that cash flow and help me get back on top much faster than trying to go back into the single-family space. I didn't have an interest in the single-family. It was what I was taught at a young age and I rolled with it and I did really well with it. And then now, I felt more grown-up and it was time to make a big change in my life and I knew multifamily is going be it.

And so I went on this exploration journey, knowing that it was going to be multifamily. What I wanted to do, James, I wanted to go back and talk to everyone. I went on a six-month binge of interviewing and talking to everyone I could, locally and on the phone, who have either been in the multifamily and made it through the crash and you'll just get a sense from them how things have changed today? How the landscape has changed? I always spoke to those who just got their start. You know, what's their perceived notion of the next couple of years? What the lending environment look like? Where are they finding opportunities? Where was the risk?

I just wanted to get an update because I basically stepped away for years from real estate. And things had changed over those three or four years, right? And during this period, I was introduced to a guy named Randy through a mutual friend. And Randy had mobile home parks here in Florida. He owned three of them. He had been a banker for thirty years and I like meeting new people. So, I said 'let's grab lunch. You're local to me. So, let's grab lunch.' And we did. I didn't go there with the intent of like, 'I want to learn about mobile home parks.' I just wanted to meet someone new who had been quite successful in their life. And that after like a two-hour lunch with Randy I walked away, saying 'I'm going to buy a mobile home park.' I need to either prove or disprove all these great things that Randy had to say about this niche and this asset class.

And that's what I did. It took me about 12 months. I bought a park up in Atlanta. We still own it today. It was a small part of a highly distressed Park and I bought that one and then I bought a second one and I bought a third one. I just spent a couple of years of my own money proving the concept. And then ultimately once we proved the concept and went full cycle on a few things. I went out and actually built a business out of it. Where we started hiring multiple team members and investors into the game and that's where we're at today.

James: What were the top three 'aha' moments from that discussion with Randy in that one-hour lunch that you had with him?

Kevin: Yeah, and this isn't to compare multifamily to mobile home parks. I mean, but this is what he told me. This is how his conversation went with me. He was like 'You know, the bottom line being C class apartment complex is great. Everyone needs to roof over their head.' Just like we talked about. Affordable housing is in high demand and that demand…

James: And what year was this?

Kevin: This is in 2011.

James: 2011 which is supposed to be one of the lowest and best times to buy. I guess, right?

Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely and so he went on to say that one of the big challenges with multifamily that he found in his career, and he wasn't a multifamily guy but from a theoretical standpoint was the turnover and you're turning 50 to 60% of your tenant base every 12 to 18 months. In mobile home parks, he's like, '95% of our residents owner their homes and it costs a lot of money for them to move their homes.' So typically what happens, Kevin, is if they want to sell that home or they want to go somewhere else move. They don't move their homes. They just put their home up for sale and they move and go buy a home somewhere else. And basically, you never lose that lot rent. That lot rent continues to come in day after day and you don't have that down period like you might have an apartment and you don't have to that make-ready costs like you might have an apartment. So, that was one of the big ones. Another big one that really piqued my interest was the just really the barrier to entry and that there's really no new supply coming in the marketplace. You know, municipalities don't like our asset class. It's got a bad stigma attached to it. And so, no new parks being built and so if you find a good quality park in a great market, you don't have to worry about competition coming down the road. It's not going to happen. It's just not a chance of it happening.

James: It's not like a straightaway somebody can just come and build something in front of you.

Kevin: Right. Right. Exactly. So, that was a big one. I liked that and then another big thing that he sold me on was just the management side of things. You know when the residents own their own homes you're not maintaining the roof, you're not maintaining their plumbing, you're not maintaining their electrical. You're not maintaining anything whatsoever that happens to their unit. They just like a homeowner, they call that vendor. They call the HVC company. They call the roofer. They call the plumber to fix it. You're not in charge of that. Our only requirement is to maintain the infrastructure. So, the roads, the water and sewer lines leading to the houses and the electrical infrastructure and that's pretty much it. And so I was like, 'Wow, that's interesting.' So, like low turnover, fairly lower management responsibility and very rarely is there ever a point in time where you have a down unit or a lot that's not paying you rent.

So, the fourth, you asked me for three but the fourth big thing that really sold me on it was He's like Kevin there's a lot of first- and second-generation park owners still out there. Either they built these parks or their father built these parks and now they're aging out. All of these parks were built in the 50s and 60s and 70s and these owners are getting very old. You know, like five years ago the statistics were that 85% of Park owners only owned one Park. And so, to me that means they're a mom and pop, right? They're not a big professional or institutional operator. And so, his point that he made was that these individuals have been working these parks not like you or I, where we run them like a professional company, but with their bare hands. They are working these things from day to day. And they're either getting old or their health is becoming an issue. They're getting tired and they're aging out of these things at a very fast rate.

And so, there's the opportunity to get in and run it like a professional. You know, get markets up to the market rate in the area and run it more efficiently and do a better job of collections and whatever they might be doing wrong there. So, that was a big thing that piqued my interest as well is working through that 'mom and pop' generation and finding opportunities that had a lot of meat left on the bone. Those were the big ones he threw at me and many others as well. But those are some of the big ones that just really sold me. I was like, 'I've got to learn more about this.'

James: Yeah, that's awesome. When I learned about mobile home park, I went for like some three-day class and I really learned it. I love it. I mean, it's a really good asset class and I didn't want to do it because I believe in focus. I mean sometimes as entrepreneurs, we are like, 'Oh, mobile. Oh, that's so cool. The self-storage let's go do this.'

Kevin: Shiny objects.

James: And I realized that to be really good at something you have to have focus. So, that's the one thing I wrote in my book, right? Whenever a passive investor chooses your sponsor make sure that your sponsors focusing maximum to asset class. There are so many details in this asset class but with this market being hard a jack of all trades can't really make money.

Kevin: True.

James: Some of their mobile home parks are a bit small, right? I mean, it used to be like 3 million for like a hundred parks or something like that. So, we were like all in doing like large deals and we thought, 'Okay, we're just going to stick with apartments and stay focus and make sure we get good at it.' So, that's important, I think. And so, at a very high level can you explain how the cash flow is generated in a mobile home park?

Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. It's pretty straightforward. You know, we own the entire community and in a perfect world, this is how we'd like to own the community, where we own zero of the home. So, let's just give an example: we have 149 space mobile home park in Buffalo, New York. In that community, we own zero of the homes that are in there. There are 140 of those lots that are occupied with residents. Who again, they own their roof above their head and they pay us on average $428 a month in lot rent. They also pay their water and sewer; you bill it back for the trash usage. So basically, our job in that community is to maintain the roads and make road improvements as necessary. We cut the common areas of the grass. We trim trees throughout the community. Just making sure that the community or the subdivision is up kept and their responsibility is to pay us for the renting of the lot that they're homes are sitting on. That's it. We make money in that manner. That is the sole source of our revenue.

Now I'd say, 'In a perfect world, we don't own the homes.' Unfortunate, we're not in a perfect world, James, are we? So, we have our portfolio of approximately two thousand lots that we own and it changes every day. In somewhere between two hundred and fifty and two hundred and seventy of the mobile homes and some parks we own zero homes and in other parks around twenty. It just really depends on how that older owner who we bought it from was operating it. And so, our goal with those homes that we own is to get out of the ownership as fast as possible. And so, what that means to us is that we'll go in and we'll do a very nice builder-grade renovation on them. We'll sure make everything is operating as it should and make them look good and ultimately try to sell them at a breakeven or we'll even lose money on the homes if we can find a cash buyer, who will come in and purchase. Who we know once they own it outright that they will be a very sticky resident and they'll end up staying there for a very, very long time. And so, our goal is really good to get it back to the lot rental model. Because at that point our management and our maintenance responsibilities are incredibly minimal.

James: Yeah, let me try to summarize this for the audience. It's like a parking lot for a car, right? But it's Just a car that doesn't have a wheel to move.

Kevin: We're the home parking lot specialists.

James: You make a lot of money, right? Because I just own the land, right. The earth is one of the best business on earth.

Kevin: Yeah, that's a good way to put it. We are definitely a parking lot. Except the homes are very expensive to move… I don't want to say that's a great thing about our resident base because that's not the best way to put it. But typically we cater to workforce housing. That's what we have. You know, so good hard-working blue-collar folks. And the average single-wide cost about 5-6000 to move and reset in another the community and a double-wide 10-12,000 and the average folks who live in our communities do the average do not have that type of money lying around to move their home but some of them. And so normally, like I said what happens is that they sell it. Just like you would sell a stick-built home. They put it up for sale and someone else buys it and that person comes in and takes over the lot rent responsibility. So, it's a beautiful thing.

James: Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. So, just in terms of the lot itself are there any other issues with the city? Or do you just own the whole lot?

Kevin: Issues with the city meaning…?

James: So basically, you own the entire park. So, that whole thing is an SL real estate, right.

Kevin: That's correct.

James: The city doesn't own any of the things inside.

Kevin: Sometimes, every park is a little different. We have a few communities where the main road going through it is owned by the town or the city and we own the park. So, they maintain that one road. We have other communities where the water company direct build the water and sewer lines. So, when that park was built the local municipality handled the water and sewer and they literally put the lines and they own them. And we're not responsible for water leaks or anything like that. In most communities, we own the lines but there are some communities that are just anomalies. They are kind of stand alones, where we don't have to maintain them. Every park is different but normally, we own everything. For the most part, we own everything in the park and we have to maintain it.

James: So, do you get a lot of depreciation because you just own the land? Compared to like multifamily?

Kevin: You do. You do. You know, we did a bunch of cost ex studies last year and we were actually pretty shocked. In fact, Tom Wheelwright from Rich Dad Advisors… I didn't know that he's good friends with the person who does our cost ex studies. He personally reached out to me because he had never looked at a study from a mobile home park before and she shared one of ours with him. And he's like, 'You got to come to my show. I'm actually baffled at the amount of depreciation that you guys able to gain.' So, the infrastructure… So, all the improvements in the land. Most of the value of that property because we're not buying the homes. Most of the value is in the improvements of the properties. Because a lot of our property that we're buying it's not like a path of progress. I mean, the dirt itself isn't worth the money. It's the infrastructure that's there that is really worth the money. And so I don't want to just off the cuff share with you some of the cost ex studies but it's a fifteen-year depreciation schedule. And I think we've been able to, on a couple of our deals, depreciate it like upwards of 60% of the actual purchase price within the first year. So pretty significant.

James: [inaudible34:57] the bonus depreciation.

Kevin: With the bonus depreciation.

James: Got it. Got it. So, is it fifteen years or is it similar to like twenty or fifteen? So, mobile home parks[inaudible], okay. That's something that I didn't know. That's very interesting, Okay. That's really good and what about what is the primary value at the mobile home park?

Kevin: Yeah, there are a couple big ones. I kind of classify them as like low hanging fruit, middle hanging fruit and then the high hanging fruit. Which is hard to get to. The low hanging fruit for us are simple operational changes. You know, the heavy payroll. We will go in and… they've basically got their family members and their cousins and their brothers on payroll and we'll go in and chop it down to what it really needs to be. That's very low hanging fruit for us. Some other low hanging fruit for us are just your rent increases. There have been many communities that we have purchased that literally have not had a rent increase in fifteen years or twenty years that's a long, long time. And so that's very low hanging fruit.

Medium hanging fruit to us would be controlling the water and water sewer and other utility expenses. So, a lot of these parks when they were built back in, back in the day, water and sewer weren't expensive utilities. They just weren't. It was included and was factored into the lot rent. You know, the infrastructure was new back then. So, there weren't leaks or wasn't waste or anything like that. Over time the infrastructure gets older and leaks that happen. People tend to abuse water. Water and sewer are expensive in most parts of the country. And that's normally a very large line on the PNL expense statement. And so, we'll go and we'll basically buy individual water sub-meters. They're pretty advanced meters that are digital and have remote reads. And then we will install them to a lot and will essentially start building the residents back for their own usage. Proportionately speaking we will do the reads each and every month build them back. So, number one: we'll save anywhere from 20% to 40% of usage because people now get responsible very quickly when have to pay for it.

And then they'll all those savings basically good to our bottom line. So, it costs us a little bit of money but typically in a normal-sized Park, we will recoup that entire investment of the water meters within like 12-14 months. It's pretty quick. And then the high hanging fruit of the value-add side is infilling of new homes on to vacant lots and so a lot of communities that we own they might have some vacant lots of them. Some more than others. So, I'll give an example: we buy a mobile home parks 100 lots in size. It's got eighty that are occupied with trailers that are paying. The other twenty they were fully developed when the park was built. They've got infrastructure there. However, they do not have a mobile home sitting on them. We've got dealers license in every state that we own a park in and so we can buy wholesale from the retailers and the manufacturers. And we'll go buy brand new home inventory and we'll bring it in and will basically create a retail program and find buyers for those homes to infill those lots. So, we'll buy the homes. We'll bring them in. So, I say that's high hanging fruit because it's very capital intensive. It costs money to purchase a home and that money is tied up until you sell that home. So, there are different programs out there that help you to facilitate that but it's still very capital intensive. And there are a lot of logistics involved with moving homes in and setting them up and things like that. So, those are the big ones of how we add value to communities.

James: Got it. Got it and I believe the mobile home park homeowners compared to multifamily which are renters, right? So, it's a completely different mindset when it comes to pride of ownership.

Kevin: That's it. That's it. That's why we try to convert them to a homeowner as fast as possible. I mean, you still have your homeowners who you have to kind of kick in the butt every once in a while, to keep your house in order, to keep the yard in order. We're pretty strict with our screening processes and for the most part, the homeowners within our communities have pride of ownership and take care of their units quite well.

James: Got it. Got it. Got it. So, let's go back to the property management side of it. Because I remember when I was listening to your podcast about five years ago, you were always saying or the apartment guys had it easy. Because they have their own property management. They are more professional. Finally, after five years you are going to be moving your property management company under yourself. You going to self-manage, right?

James: Yeah. So, you guys do have it easy. All you have to do is pay it and just hand it off. Buy it and... Yeah, joking. I know there's more to it than that. So, up until a little over a year ago, we managed all our own assets in house. And unfortunately, the property management side of any business there's a certain size to where you can actually break even and we were nowhere near that size. And so, it was a losing endeavor for us. And so, sometime in the middle of last year we were introduced to a property management firm…. we'd never considered property management in the mobile home park space. Only because we were always told that the options of the companies that were out there were poor, very poor. And I was told so by many different people, many different veterans of the industry and so we never really explored it.

And so, we always manage it ourselves but last year we were in contract to buy a property up in Michigan. It was in receivership and the bank had engaged this management company, a national management company, a property management company that were mobile home park experts in the business forty years. They were engaged to actually manage the day to day of this thing while it was in receivership. We were buying a note on this thing and we got introduced to this property management company. We got to see them in the real world.

James: [barking] My dog has been like a... Alright, Kevin. So, one thing that I got to know since a long time ago is apartments have an easy way of getting into third party property management and buying it and giving it to third party property management. More recently, you have been trying to get your own property management company or maybe you already done it. So, can you explain why that is?

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. So, in our space it is not the norm to hand off to a third-party management company. I think we're like the redheaded stepchild or the anomaly of the real estate industry. Because pretty much every other asset class multifamily, office, retail, all of them have multinational property management companies and lots to choose from, right. They can choose from many different people in the space, best in class things of that nature. I had always been told in the mobile home park space by many industry veterans that it just doesn't exist here that there are only a handful of property management companies and most of them aren't very good. So basically, in the initial years of us owning parks, we managed it ourselves.

However, in order to build an appropriate property management company that's profitable, you have to have a certain scale and we were never there two years ago. We just weren't large enough. And so, it was kind of a losing endeavour for us. We're okay with it. But it was prohibiting our ability to grow at the scale that we wanted to. We were good at finding great opportunities and we were good at raising capital. The roadblock was actually the operations of all these different parks were buying.

And so just by happenstance, we were buying a note on a distressed property up in Michigan and it was in receivership. And during that transaction, we got introduced to the management company that was running the show and it was this large group. They've been in this space for 40 years. They are the largest fee manager in our business and they've had a footprint nationwide. And I saw them first-hand and it seemed like they were doing a great job within the first couple of months of us being introduced to them and of them managing this asset that was not yet ours. And so, I flew up and met their team and flew my team up to meet their team. I got to see their operations. I got to learn about them and everything seemed great. I mean, I was impressed. Again, they had a lot of experience… way more experienced than us in this business. They knew everyone in the industry. They knew all the intricacies of the business. They had different departments to manage those things whereas we were basically were trying to wear a million different hats. And it seemed like a perfect match made in heaven. And so, after another month or two of kind of testing them out on this asset. We were buying this and we said 'You know, let's hand them the majority of our properties and let's see how they do.' And we kind of did it like two different chunks. And long story short, they're great guys.

However, no one's going to ever manage your property like you would. No one's ever going to care as much as you do. And so within four or five months, we started seeing some pretty readily available signs that things were not going as planned. The promises weren't coming true. You know, decisions that should have taken three minutes to make were taking three months to make. Everything was moving like a snail's pace and nothing was getting done and we were actually regressing and it was frustrating. However, what happened during these first six months of us being with them is that we literally acquired like another nine properties. So, we doubled in size. So, unfortunately, it wasn't as easy as us making a decision saying, 'Hey, we're going to give you our thirty-day notice and we're going to take it back in house.' Because we surely did not have the infrastructure now to actually manage our assets because we literally doubled in size in a short period of time.

And so over the last six months, we've been kind of behind the scenes building out a legitimate property management company with systems and processes and in hiring new team members. We didn't want to bring it back in and fumble. We want to make sure that we brought it back in, we basically built our own best in class operation that we could do it better than anyone else. Whether it be for ourselves or current assets or new assets that we were buying. If we woke up one day and we ended up going crazy. We thought that we wanted to do a third-party management for other people that we would be best in class. I don't think that's going to happen. But that's what we've done over the last five or six months and that's actually side-tracked some of our acquisitions we've only bought two properties this year. We probably could have bought a lot more but anyway I guess long story short, James, is I'm somewhat envious of you guys in the multifamily space. Because there's a bar that set with property management companies and if one company is doing poorly you've got other options to go to and typically they kind of keep each other in line a lot of times.

And I know that they're still never going to treat your property like you would yourself personally. However, You've got options and things that might not be working with one company you know that you could probably actually go and get served correctly at another company. We just didn't have that option. We just didn't have that option. This was the once and done. There were other companies out there but these are the best in class and I'm like, 'If these are the best in class, we got to build our own. Because there are other options for us.' That's what we did. We brought it back and so that just happened on November 1st. That's when we actually truly brought everything that had migrated back in was November 1st. So as of the time of this recording, it was like six weeks ago.

James: Got it. Got it. So yeah, it's a different ballgame, right? of course, it's going to slow down in terms of acquisitions because now you're also managing the property management. But I think overall, in the long run, it's much better for you. Right?

Kevin: Absolutely, at the end of the day the amazing strides that we've made just in the construction side of our business and the marketing side of our business as far as like sales are concerned…like we've done more in the past two months then was completed in the past year. I'm not even joking. It's been absolutely amazing. So, I'm excited. I'm like, 'Hey if I'm going to screw up, I want it to be my fault. I don't want it to be someone else's fault that our properties aren't performing.' I'm okay taking accountability if they're not performing if it's me that's running the ship or driving the ship, right? But if it's another company and they're doing a poor job and we can't control it. I've got issues with that. So, that's kind of where we're at.

James: And I also think that when the market turns people with their own vertical integration will have a lot more leverage in terms of control, right? I mean a lot of property management companies are doing a mediocre job right now but they escape because the markets are super strong right now.

Kevin: That's right. The market props everything up.

James: When the market turns then we will know how good they are. Because now we have to be answerable to our investors and we have to go to third party. So, one other thing that I want to touch on about the way you do business a lot of times you raise money and not deal by deal but you use fund model. Can you explain what's a 'fund model'? And why is that beneficial?

Kevin: Yeah, to keep it somewhat simple… I mean, it's really not much different than your deal-specific syndications other than the fact that we've got multiple properties that we're putting underneath that fund umbrella versus just one individual property. So, an investor is going to get their investment diversified amongst multiple properties and possibly multiple different markets rather than just one. So, simply put that really is the only true difference between probably how our business operates and how your business operates. The reason that we decided to go that route happened about three years ago…We were going into the end of the year and we had just founded Sunrise Capital Investors. As like a formal company, rather than just me and buying parks on my own. And we had a pretty stout pipeline and a lot of deals kind of fell apart. And we were like, 'Oh, we only have two deals now. They're going to either going to close January or February next year. This is due to individual deal-specific raises.' That's fine.

And then all sudden like within like two weeks somehow all these other deals came back to life and we all of a sudden had five deals that absolutely looked like they're going to close. We had like four to five money that went hard and anyway we're like, 'Okay, well now we have five and they're all going to end up dropping like in the same like week or two. Logistically speaking, it'd be an absolute nightmare to try to do five deals specific syndications. Because of the paperwork and logistics behind it and then the legal costs associated with it and that just didn't make any sense.' They're going to close right at the same time.

I think there's more of a benefit for our investors to give them diversification amongst all five of these versus just one. You know, one individually. And so we didn't know what the feedback was going to be and we put it out there and it was well-received. So, it was great for us. It gave us a little bit more flexibility on the buying side. Gave them risk diversification amongst multiple different assets and markets and so it's been a win. So, we did really well with that. That was kind of our test fund and you're last, actually about eighteen months ago, we launched our second Fund. Which is a little bit larger fund twenty-million-dollar fund and it did the same thing. So you know, we're a little different, though. A lot of funds… a lot of institutional funds will go out and they'll get really aggressive. They'll raise all the money. Let's say it's 100-million-dollar fund to go out and raise I'll spend all their time and energy raising 100 million dollars. And once they've got the commitments for, let's say, maybe 75% or maybe more than that. Then they'll actually start going to buy it. You know, once that money's there and the costs of capital is very high. We didn't want the money sitting around idle.

And so, we just continued our building our pipeline and we would only bring money in tranches. So, we'd only bring enough in during that fundraising that we actually knew we're going to need or the next like two months to close deals. So, although it was an eighteen-month buying period over the last fund, we would raise it in tranches. Which meant our investor capitalism is sitting around idle, not collecting a return. We weren't occurring pref on money on millions of dollars that were sitting being around idle. And it just held us accountable and it held everyone accountable which I like. Our interests were very much aligned with one another.

James: So, you basically do capital calls whenever you need the money.

Kevin: That's it. That's it.

James: These are good capital calls, not the other bad capital calls.

Kevin: Right. Exactly. Like the verbal soft commitments are there. And some of them might not come through but the majority of them do. You know, I think about 5% drop out of folks.

James: So, you basically make a verbal commitment. And when you have a deal, you say now let's make it hard.

Kevin: Yeah, absolutely and each one of these two funds that we started, we actually already had deals and contract going into them. So, it wasn't like we were raising a blind pool like, 'Oh, here's what we're going to do. We're going to raise this much money, and then we're going to buy.' It's like we got X amount of properties in contract right now. So, while there might be more properties in this fund, you can physically see and see the performers in each one of these. These are going to be properties that are in this fund. So, there's something tangible there. That's another thing so different about us and how we do these funds. We don't go into it blind. Where we're just raising money and then we're going to go do what we say we're going to do. We're actually doing it simultaneously but we've got deals coming in. We've got deals in contract money hard---

James: 'Semi blind' I would call it.

Kevin: Call it 'semi-blind.' That's a perfect way to put it. It sounds like a rock band.

James: Right, right. Right. Alright, Kevin, can you give some advice to people who are trying to start up in this business in real estate or even in mobile home park?

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. Trying to get started up I'd say go try to mute a little bit of social media because everyone's on social media now, but I'd try to mute a little bit of that and go find the one individual girl or gal who is actually doing what you want to do. They can prove to you that they're doing what you want to do. They're an actual GP. They're not they don't have five thousand units of very minimal shares as an LP and they're touting that. I know that's happening a lot out there. So, you know try to mute all that crap because I know it gives people anxiety. You know, like social media gives people anxiety because they see how everyone else is doing deals and 'I'm like stuck here I can't get going.' Just try to mute it out. Silence it and go find the James. Find guys like me. We're very good with our time. We're not going to just give everything away for free per se.

We only have like so much time today but like find an authentic individual like us, I don't want to tout ourselves here, who will actually like give you some real advice that can give you some proper guidance or at least give you some nuggets get on your way and let all that other noise go. Because I think that that that that bottlenecks people a lot. That fear of missing out man. That anxiety creates just this internal turmoil of like, 'I'm missing out' and then like you get nothing done right. You're like, 'I'm going all these conferences and I'm reading all these books. I'm doing all these things.' And you feel like a…

James: And you pay big money to some gurus out there.

Kevin: Yeah and I think that a lot of folks' mistake that with like productivity of …attending things like that. It's great. I do it all the time. You do it obviously. We're part of a mastermind together. But like you've actually got to like at some point get granular and you actually have to take some risk and take that leap. It's easier to do when you know someone like you or someone like me or there are other people like us. That one person who you can just kind of lean on and get some general advice from and get the real picture from as well. You know, what's real and what's not.

James: Absolutely, absolutely. Kevin, why do you do what you do?

Kevin: Why I do what I do? I really enjoy it as far as investing in real estate, I really enjoy it. I mean, I love the people I work with. I love our team here. I really enjoy being active and so everyone likes different parts of the deal like as far as what I do I'm not an Excel junkie. Not like my other partner he'll sit in from an Excel platform and run the model many different ways over like five hours. I want to shoot myself when I think of that. I'd rather be out in the field, I like executing on the plan. I like taking something from what it is today and actually seeing the end result of our hard work and effort over a period of six to twelve to eighteen, twenty-four months. And I also like seeing the smiles on the faces of residents.

When we take something that's been blighted and actually make improvements to it. Especially folks who have lived there for many years. That's pretty rewarding to be seeing that kind of stuff. Especially, you get the one residence like, 'God, I've been in for twenty years and this place over the last ten years was just scary and I didn't want my family to come over. Now, I have dreamt of the day that it will be the back to its former glory.' And I like that kind of stuff. So, I like the lifestyle that that real estate provides, right? I get to spend a lot of time with my wife and my kids and friends and family and things like that.

James: Absolutely and was there any proud moment towards your real estate career that you can never forget? That will stay with you. Is there one proud moment that you were like I'm so proud of myself.

Kevin: Yeah, actually there is one. It was the very first mobile home park that we bought. If you got time, I'll tell the story. It's probably two- or three-minutes story but anyway, I'll try to keep it short. We were buying a very, very distressed park in Atlanta, Georgia. It was in a good little town but it was in the southern part of Atlanta. Which was got hit really hard with the recession and was slower to recover because there were a lot of the new developments that were out that way.

Anyway, we're buying this park that had been receivership for two years. It was fairly poor condition. Lots of squatters, all kinds of bad stuff happening there. The chief of police and the mayor's office were right across the street like a catty-corner. They had to drive past this place every day and we got it tied up and it was a small enough town and corporate town that we actually got a meeting with the mayor and this entire city council including the chief and everyone. And we went in there with his grand plan of how we're going to literally spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to clean this place up and to improve it and make it a proud part of their community.

And we gave this big sales pitch to the mayor's like this really tall guy with a bald head and the handlebar mustache. He is a really mean looking guy and this was in Georgia. He had like a rifle on the wall and a fox. He was a very intimidating guy but he let us talk. Everyone's kind of looking like shaking their heads. I thought we were like getting their acceptance and he let us talk for fifteen minutes and then he looked at us and he said, 'If you guys buy that park, you're wasting your money. Get out of my town. I've been trying to shut that thing down for years now and I'm not going to stop until it's completely closed down. So get the hell out of here. Take your money somewhere else.'

So, we walked out of that room and we and I looked at my partner I said, 'What do you think we should do?' Because we weren't getting financing, we were paying all cash for this thing, too. Because it wasn't financialable. So, it was like basically all the money we had at that point. We bought it anyway. 'So, let's buy it. I mean what are they going to do? Listen, let's just show them what we're going to do. I mean, how are they going to truly stop us, right? Let's do what We're going to do. We know we're going to clean the place up. He doesn't believe us but let's prove them wrong.' We did that cleaned it up. We became really good friends with code enforcement officer that's kind of that was our like our foot in. We got her gift cards and made her like us and it was a very very open with our communication to her. So, if there was ever an issue, we addressed it right away.

Anyway, twelve months later I got a call from Mayor Bobby Carter's that his name and we got a call from him and I answered I didn't know it him and he said, 'This is a Mr. Bobby Carter.' He has a southern accent. He said, 'I just want to take a moment to apologize. I want to apologize for the way I treated you guys. I want to apologize for thinking that you wouldn't be able to execute on the beautiful plan that you have done over here.' It was a long apology and he's like, 'I just want to take a moment today. I've been meaning to call you over the last six months as I've seen progress being made but it's a year later and this place is great and actually, one of my staff members lives there.'

James: He was holding it off until he had to tell you.

Kevin: That was pretty cool. He literally wrote me a letter then he wrote a letter of recommendation to another Mayor who we were having an issue within another state in another town. Basically, saying like, 'I thought mobile home parks were the problem. I thought this and the other and that's not the case. And these guys proved me wrong.' And that's pretty cool. I'm pretty proud of that one.

James: Yeah. It's a big change especially with one of your first ones.

Kevin: He was the very first one.

James: You must have been really scared. I like how come the is not behind your back.

Kevin: Well, we could lose that money either. I didn't have much at that point. In 2012, I was pretty broke back then. So, I had to make the money work.

James: That must be the fuel that launched your rocket and your motivation I guess.

Kevin: Yeah, that's it.

James: So, why don't you tell our audience how to get a hold of you and your company?

Kevin: Yeah, the best place to reach me personally is my website, Kevin Bob. You can find me on LinkedIn and Facebook as well. As far as our company if you want to learn what we're doing in the mobile home park space, you go to sunrisecapitalinvestors.com and get signed up there as well. We don't have an offering open today but get signed up. We have a secure portal and get updates from us when you know we have deals coming about and things of that nature. But other than I'm not too hard to track down. So, it's pretty easy to find me on iTunes. I've got a couple of podcasts as we've mentioned earlier. You can find me in many different places. And now you can also find me on Jame's show.

James: Yeah. So, thanks for coming. It was an awesome podcast. It was a lot of value that you gave us and I'm happy to have you on my show.

Kevin: Thank you. Thanks for having me, James. And it's been a pleasure knowing you. I appreciate all you do with the podcast. I know how much work it is to put these things out. So, thank you for taking the time to get back to everyone. So much appreciated.

James: Hi, audience and listeners. This is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth at Real Estate Investing podcasts. Last week, we had Jake and Gino from Wheelbarrow Profits. You know, Jake and Gino have tons and tons of deals on their own and you know, recently have moved into syndication space as well. And their story is just very interesting in terms of knowing how did they get started, how did they refinance their first deal to launch their multifamily investing career.

Today I have Rich Fishman from Dallas, and Rich has almost 8,000 units right now across 23 complexes and he has been buying in Texas, Tennessee, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Mississippi, and South Carolina. So Rich is going to be giving us a lot of valuable insights into how he had bought so many apartment units. And imagine half of that 8,000 units is fundamentally owned by Rich itself and the other half of it is more of a partnership and syndication. Hey Rich, welcome to the show.

Rich: Well, thank you, James. Glad to be here.

James: Good, good. So, Rich, it's going to be a very interesting podcast because, and I'm going to be learning so much from you and I'm sure my listeners is going to be learning so much from you. How did you get started? I mean, you have like 8,000 units right now. You started almost 20 years ago. So walk back, how did you get started in multifamily immediately when you get started in real estate?

Rich: Well, actually, I was the owner of a mortgage company in the San Francisco Bay area in Berkeley, California and I financed mostly half homes, but I also financed apartment complexes. And I had a deal to finance, it was a six-plex in Alameda, California, and it was a foreclosure. Back then, there were a lot of foreclosures and the realtor gave me the deal, I got the loan, and then the buyer fell out of escrow; they didn't like the deal. And then there was another buyer; same thing happens. And I said to the realtor, I said, "What's wrong with this deal? It looks like it makes money."

And she says "Nothing's wrong with the deal."

And I said, "Well, I don't know how to manage anything like this."

She says, "Well, I know management company, don't worry about it."

So I went to the property, then I dragged my wife there.

And it's a funny story because my wife is from Scandinavia and they don't do very well there. And so we went to the property and we had one of those, you know those long screwdrivers that the termite guys have because we are poking around, seeing if it was well-built. And the screwdriver went right through the wood into the drywall. And my wife says, "No, I can't buy this with you."

I said, "No, we're buying this."

And she looked at me and she said, "Okay."

And so we bought this six-plex. And the six-plex was the beginning of us starting to buy real estate in earnest. So that's the story is we cut aside. There was a sidebar from the mortgage business.

James: Got it, got it, yeah. I always wonder, like whenever I meet brokers, mortgage brokers, and even brokers, I always ask them, why not you guys buy these deals, right? Why are you just doing transaction? And a lot of times, I mean not a lot of times I think once I talk to someone who went from a mortgage broker to become an investor. I'm sure you know him; it's like Michael Becker, right? Yeah. I think he's a big buyer in Dallas. I asked him this question because he used to be working in Wells Fargo and he told me not everybody likes to take risks like a business owner.

Rich: It's not only about the risk. The main reason that people get into the investment side is because, when you're doing transactions as a broker, you're making income and you're only as good as your last deal. You have to keep churning and closing deals to make a living, and every broker is off to the next listing, or the mortgage person is off the next loan and you'd live and die by the transaction. So eventually, most people either say, I've got to own this stuff; build wealth rather than income. Or I'm not interested; I really don't want to own anything. It takes the risk and the responsibility of owning property. So that's the thing, I had to make a decision to own it, take care of it, use my free time because I was still a mortgage broker. I had to use my weekends to run the real estate with my wife. We want to get started because we couldn't just go into multifamily; we needed the income from the mortgages. So it takes a lot of sacrifice for the first couple of years to get into something like this.

James: Got it, got it. So you must know the industry; working as well in the mortgage and to really successfully become owner and take advantage of that knowledge as well. So after how many years or after how many unit count that you, you said, okay, I'm going to give up this mortgage business, I'm going to be just a fulltime, a real estate investor?

Rich: I think we hit about a thousand apartments. And at that point, I let go of my duties in the mortgage company and concentrated on just buying and selling apartments.

James: Got it, got it. So, 20 years ago you started buying the six-plex, when did you see your fastest acceleration of purchase or acquisitions?

Rich: Well, we hit about 4,000 units and then the recession came 2009 to 14, 12, 13 as on the area of the country, and that was really hard. So we didn't really grow during that period. We were selling off as fast as we were buying, just kind of trying to keep our head above water. We got to about 5,000 units, about two or three years ago, and then we've grown a lot more. I could probably have 50,000 apartments today if I wanted them. I would have to basically align myself with someone on Wall Street or some investment banking for like a Goldman Sachs or something like that. And they would be happy to raise the money and give me all that money and I could then own five or 10% or 15% or whatever it is that is bought, BUT I'm not that going to ho for that strategy.

So the growth at this point is really about organic growth for me and our company, and also quality of life because when you have institutional mining, you have to take care of it in a way that suits the institutions. And they have requirements that family and friends and other people don't have. For example, they might want audited books every year. That doesn't sound like a lot because we don't; we have books [inaudible 08:46] and everything, but that just takes a lot of time to get an audit done. And if you multiply that by 15 or 20 EO, now you have to have a whole audit department, and CPAs work who for you and things like that. So it's been really about opportunity and raising money mostly from either my own, resources or family and friends and other methods.

James: Got it, got it. So, Rich, I think you bring a really good perspective in terms of economic cycle because you have went through, I mean, you started 20 years ago, you went through that 2008 and everybody said 2008 multi-family, you know, fat better than any other asset classes, they are very, very low. What you call, you know, who went into a receivership or bankruptcy; multifamily, so is that true?

Rich: That's not true at all. Most of the people who are in multifamily today, we're not even involved in the business.

James: Exactly, that's what I'm asking because everyone is sort of newbies--

Rich: A lot of people were wiped out in that recession and a lot of other people were underwater. I mean, there were thousands of apartment complexes that were foreclosed on. Now was it as bad as office buildings or retail? Maybe not, I really don't know, but it was bad. Now they say anybody who lasted eight years, they could come out the other side feeling good. But most people don't have the capital to take five or six or seven years of losses, and large losses. If you're not making debt coverage, if you're not able to pay your loan and you're coming out of pocket, that might be okay for one deal. But if you have 20 deals like that, yeah, that's a whole different story. So it's quite a different thing than when people say. Now, the multifamily was hitting extremely hard, and I think the default ratio was up to about 8%.

James: 8%. Okay.

Rich: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. That doesn't sound that bad compared to student loans. But if you think about it 8% is, you know, you're talking about housing that touches the lives of millions of people.

James: Got it. Yeah. It's very interesting data because you are giving me true data. I mean, sometimes we read in the news and they say low delinquency rate and it was not a hard hit and we don't have real, true story. Right, because a lot of it depends on the sub-marker, depends on which class we are talking about, and you know, depends on the operator as well. So how did you survive the 2008 crash?

Rich: Well, I have some properties that cash barge really well and I had others that really couldn't survive and I got rid of them. I sold them off or actually, I had you cut my portfolio down in order to survive and retrench a little bit, but I only had a few deals that were like that, the rest, I didn't have the leverage. If you were totally leveraged up in a bad market, then you cannot save yourself because, and if you're a partnership, you can't save yourself either. Because, if you own 10 or 20% of the deal and the loan is negative, then you would actually have to make a capital call every month on your partners in order to make those payments, and if you raise money. You know that there are two words that should never be spoken 'capital costs'.

James: Exactly.

Rich: And so it's hard to really get money out of people to feed something that's losing money. So, there are a lot of people who gave; I know one fellow in the Houston market, he had property all over Houston, Atlanta, I think he gave up about 40 yields back. And there were other people like that who had just a tremendous amount of deals that they gave back to the banks.

James: So was this deal when they give back did Fannie and Freddie was giving non-recourse loan at that time?

Rich: Yeah, non-recourse loans, they just won't; if you give them deals back, they don't want to lend to you again unless you pay a heavy penalty to offset their losses because they take losses, themselves or the service or takes the loss. And in Fannie Mae's case, the loan originator slash servicer usually takes about five to 10% of the risk of the loan. So, you know, that could be pretty substantial too, to them because they're usually own companies by either large wealthy individuals or by banks. They don't like taking losses at all.

James: Got it, so they--

Rich: Hopefully we won't be there again.

James: Yeah, absolutely, we didn't want to be there again. So it was non-recourse and the owners were able to just give up their property, they lose their equity and the service that takes some loss and they gave it back to Fannie Mae and that's it.

Rich: Fanny Mae never own; one of the problems with the way the system was set up, is that Fannie may never really own the loan. People don't realize this, but Fannie Mae is just a broker.

James: Really? Okay.

Rich: There's really like nobody, you know, there's not like someone in Mumbai who owns or in Shanghai who owns all these loans. I mean, they basically securitize the loans and they sell the loan as a bond in the world financial markets. And so there's a special servicer who represents the interests of the bondholders and that person is delegated decision making, but they're not able to cut deals on Fannie Mae loan. So, they don't generally go and say, we see that you're negative, and why don't we go from 5% to 3% and you can owe us the money later? Things like that; they're not flexible. So, actually, Freddie Mac is, is more flexible, they act more like a bank, and so they can do workouts in a much better way than Fannie Mae can. It's just one of the things people don't know.

James: Got it. Wow, that's interesting. That's a lot of information out there. Yeah, I mean, Fannie Mae does a, securitize the loan and they sell it to the investor who buys it as a bond and they get certain percentage out of it. And in the middle there's servicer, there's Fannie Mae, everybody makes a few percent like this one [inaudible 15:59].

Rich: Everybody is making money, and at the end, the only people who generally lose money are the bondholders.

James: Okay, are the bondholders. But if the deal is given back, I mean the equity holder, whoever, the owner also lose the money as well, right? So there are two people, the buyer, and the seller, right?

Rich: The borrower absolutely loses a whole lot of their entire investment. And then the lender, if the lender can't be made whole by the sale of the real estate, they may lose money too. Things can get pretty bad in that cycle, that the value of the property often sunk below the outstanding balance of the loan. There're a lot of negative things to talk about, but let's talk about more positive things.

James: Got it. So you talked about people who are highly leveraged, right? So let's say you're buying a deal at 75% leverage. Do you think that's high level, I mean, can you define highly leverage? What is the highest leverage that you think?

Rich: Well, in today's world, you can leverage up to, Oh, even 90% for the first and second or preferred equity. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just that you don't want to leverage that high on a stabilized property. It's one thing if you buy a property that's a value add and that you're going to add value and renovate a property, increased rents, increased value, and you're looking on a stabilized basis that okay, you went high leverage, but within a year or two you're going to be catching up and the leverage point will be at 60%, 65 or 75% or something. But if you're basically highly leveraged in stabilized properties without any value add then. If the rents go down five or 10%, then you're underwater, you want to have some protection; you want to certainly have 20% or debt coverage or something like that.

James: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, that's the reason where I'm going with the question because we buy deals, we buy deals or value at deals even at 80% leverage, but in one to two years, that 80% leverage is going to be, 70 to 65% leveraged. So basically it's not leveraged at the start of the loan, it's basically, where are you going to be once you're stabilized; that's the more important thing. Sometimes people get confused that you shouldn't be highly leveraged? Why highly leverage and you don't understand that we are looking for buffer for DSCR? We want to be as further up from the debt service coverage ratio. That's the fundamental discussion about what highly leverage and costing higher risk.

Rich: Right, leverage is your friend, if you're using the leverage to invest capital, if you're using leverage to service debt or to pay out dividends, then you're making a huge mistake.

James: Okay, absolute point, that's an awesome point. That's well-said. I couldn't have said it better. So what about the guys who have done breach loans at that time in 2008 what happened to them and what would you give advice to that kind of people who are doing--

Rich: You mean the answer 2007 or 2008 with a value add deal, and then they had a bridge situation. While those people probably suffered, I mean they didn't execute. If they executed, that's fine. It was hard to push rents back then, everything is based on increase in rent. Fundamental multifamily strategy is how can I increase the rent? What value can I give the tenant so they'll pay more? Now, between 2008 and 2012, the only value add strategy that I know that worked was the fixed deferred maintenance to make sure you kept the lights on, for the most part. So beyond that, I didn't see people putting granite countertops in and all this other stuff because everyone was just trying to supply.

So those people, many of those people who got in at the cycle; at the end of the cycle, didn't make money unless they stayed all the way through 2015-16, so there were about seven years. But you would have to stay in that deal in order to make it. Now I did buy a property in the Midwest that I bought for about 15,000 units. You can get things that way back then. And I bought it in 2006 and I did do really well on it, but it was unusual because I got it so cheap; my basis lever was very high. But at the time it seemed like I had really jumped the shark as they say because the economy wasn't very good, and it wasn't easy to rent up any apartments for a while.

James: So coming back to Midwest, which I believe is MAVA secondary or tertiary market, right? So like right now in 2019 right now, market is so hard and people can't buy in the hot cities like Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Austin, people are, I mean, I'm just looking at Texas, right? I mean, we're in Florida, we have Orlando, Tampa, and what Jacksonville, and I mean a lot of people have started going to other States and tertiary market or States which is like supposedly supposed to be upcoming. So, what would you give advice to them?

Rich: Well, I think my advice on the States like South Carolina or those kinds of places, is that to study the local market and make sure that it's vibrant, that there are good jobs there. There are a lot of great secondary and tertiary markets. Huntsville, Alabama or Hoover, Alabama or you know, Greenville, Columbia, South Carolina, I mean there's just, you know, Asheville, North Carolina, there's a lot of great secondary markets. I think the biggest problem that people have in these markets, one is they think they can increase rents more than they can. Because if you go to some of these markets and you think you can get $200 for putting in a new kitchen, you might find out you can only get $35 and 20 cents because there's a limit to what a lot of these people were willing to pay in these markets.

And if you go too high, they just want [inaudible 22:56], but there are still some markets that are small that people are really surprised at. I mean if you've been to Indiana and you know, there is Columbus, Indiana, well that sounds like a real nothing place, but Commons is located there, it's a very large company, and it's a pristine town with really high rents. Bloomington is also a great town in Indiana; it's got the college there. So there's a lot of college towns and there are capitals and there are places where there's a lot of manufacturing that's particularly in the Southeast that they didn't have manufacturing before. Some of these places have become very desirable for retirement and for our businesses like Charleston, South Carolina, nothing was going on there except history about 20 years ago. If you've been they are now, they are building homes like crazy. People are moving there to retire. There's a huge tourism business, I think ranked the number one wedding venue one year recently. And then they have they're making small planes there; just tremendous amount of activity going on.

James: What happened to this kind of tertiary market? I'm sure you had similar tertiary market during 2008 where you thought, okay, this is really good to go in and invest in. Looking at some of the cities that you're looking at it right now, what happened to that kind of market in 2008 how did they do compared to the major cities that are well known for--?

Rich: I own the property, and the answer is different. Every tertiary market was different, just like every major market. For example, if you look at the major markets or the secondary major markets take Tucson. Tucson was wiped out in the recession, now people say it's a good investment. Phoenix was wiped out, Vegas was wiped out, Reno was wiped out. Today Reno; people think Reno is part of California. It's hard to buy something under 150 a door in Reno now. So back then it was 50 a thousand a door was a great retirement exit. So I own property in Sierra Vista, Arizona, and there is an army base there. Now, I will never buy another property next to an army base. I don't care what the numbers look like because the politics of the army base are things that I cannot control.

And they decided that army base that they didn't need hardly anymore. So they cut the enrollment at the army base there by about half. And it was the town that depended upon the army base almost completely, not just the army people, but the people who were feeding and the vendors, and everybody else. And so the town really; rents went down about 30-40% in the town, but then there are other locations. I owned a property in Davenport, Iowa and it got hit, but it didn't get hit that bad. And agriculture, which was a real feeder for Iowa, stayed pretty good. And you know, they had the ethanol and that was pretty good. We never got below in general 90% occupancy in the properties that we own there, so it just really depends, you've got to do your research. Just how you can't make a blanket and say tertiary market, secondary market; core markets; it wasn't long ago that people considered Baltimore to be almost a core market.

Because of its proximity to DC on the Amtrak corroder from New York, the new Harbor that they had built there with the aquarium and today, a lot of people don't think of Baltimore as a core market and back then people didn't see DC as a core market. They thought it was crime, wedding blah, blah, blah, you know, stay away from DC. And now today, I mean, you're talking about very expensive real estate all over DC.

James: Awesome, awesome. That is a lot of insights there. So Rich, which market have you been focusing on, I mean, you bought in a lot of markets before these and you probably own some of it over there, but what has your strategy has been at this hot--?

Rich: Right now my strategy is really to buy more in DFW.

James: Okay.

Rich: Our office is here. This is probably the best multifamily market in the country. The cranes are all over the skyline. The jobs are coming in like crazy every day or week there is another multinational company that's relocating from California generally to Dallas Fort worth. There's a lot of vibrancy here. Rents keep tricking up. I like DFW. I've liked Houston a lot in the past; Houston is very squatty though, and there's a lot, I can't just tell you that Houston's going to do well because every part of Houston is so different and there's no zoning, so it doesn't have a character. Neighborhoods don't have as much character that they do here. But Houston is great Austin is great, it's just the real question, isn't what do I like, the real question is, is there an upside? Where is the upside in multifamily today?

And the answer is that there isn't the kind of upside today that there was until a couple of years ago because we were still basically catching up from the recession; a lack of housing, deferred maintenance and household formation. During the people said to me, "aren't there going to be more renters?" Because people were foreclosed, I don't know if you remember that. They will say, "You're in a great business". All these foreclosures, they have to rent now. No, they didn't have to rent. They moved in with their families, they hold up; whatever they had to do. People are much more flexible and adaptable than statisticians and university professors. So people didn't create households, kids stayed in the basement, and so here we are 2012 wondering where are all the renters? Well, it turns out that they were hiding out.

So when the economy got good and they got jobs, they all came out and that created a lot of household formation, a lot more renters. And that created a boom in multifamily. So, either more and more people who need rental housing, absolutely, and particularly in areas like Dallas, Fort Worth where they're coming in for the jobs, they need housing; Austin, they need housing. That puts pressure on rents and they usually start building a lot more too. The areas that have a declining population, I wouldn't invest.

So if a deal's in a city that has a declining population, I automatically say no, I'm not interested in, even if I could fix it up and make some money, to me that's; I'm going against the tide. I'm just one guy, I can't make an ocean. I have to get in my little boat, and I have to have the-- I want the ocean to work for me and not against me. I don't want to fight that. Same or crime; if I'm in an area that has just tremendous amount of crime, it's still, crime is [inaudible31:42], but if it has a lot of crime, I don't want to own it because I can't do all the things necessary to stop crime in my neighbor. I'm not a police department. I'm just one person owning one complex or two in a neighborhood and I've got to have an ability to deliver safe housing to the people who rent from us.

James: Got it, got it. Just want to add one thing to the listeners and audience. If you want to find a city where there's declining on appreciating one free resource, which is very quick to check, it is called bestplaces.net. Bestplaces.Net, and you can go and enter the city information and you can go to a household. I believe it's a real estate statistics and it shows you whether there's a declining population or increasing population. I mean in general, I think Texas is increasing in general. Everybody's moving to Texas and I believe Florida as well, so--

Rich: I mean, if you're looking in Texas and you say, well, why don't I buy in Amarillo or Abilene or these kinds of places, I don't have anything to say. I don't know those markets, but those are not vibrant places generally.

James: It makes sense; vibrant. Okay, got it. But I think the major cities in Texas are pretty vibrant.

Rich: The major cities are really San Antonio, Austin, Houston, and Dallas. Then you have cities like El Paso, Lubbock, Tyler, you know, places like that that are in the second tier. Corpus Christi is another one that is in between the second and third-tier cities. Aon, actually in Corpus Christi real estate, and that's on a lot of people's radar because they are putting along money to the ports and the petroleum industry, but it's not as vibrant as it San Antonio or Austin.

James: Got it. Got it, got it, very interesting. So but Dallas, I mean, I know you're focusing on Dallas, but Dallas prices have appreciated from what 50,000 a door. I mean, I think all over Texas it's like this, right? For the past five years, $50,000 a door to almost a hundred thousand a dollar for a C-class property. So how are you planning to buy deals? I mean since, don't you think at some point the price per door is just going to be limited by the rent wage growth of the--?

Rich: Well, I think that it's a mistake to really focus on price per door. I think it's a better thing to focus on cap rates.

James: Cap rates, okay.

Rich: And if you could buy something over a five cap rate and put loan on it for under 4%, then you have positive arbitrage, and you're going to make money. So a lot of properties are expensive, but property in San Francisco is 350,000 a door. Now, I was a mortgage broker there when they were going for 100,000 a door, and I thought people were crazy. Who would ever pay that? So, we can't let a number and you shouldn't let a number per door impact your buying decision. What your buying decision should be based on is what return on your investment you're going to get. Now, it's true that you want to make sure there's an exit there, meaning that there's somebody else who would buy a property at more per door if that's a problem.

Now there are some markets where maybe that is an issue still, but they're generally very depressed; places like Detroit or things like that or Cleveland. But even those places are not any more per door oriented. So I've seen deals recently that are 120,130 a door. They were bought for 80 a door just three, four years ago. And before that, they had one for 55 a door. And I don't really care what people bought them for in the past, I just care what can I do? What's my return going to be? If I could hit my numbers and I don't really care. Now the question is, can I hit my numbers? Am I chasing a dream that's-- is the ship already sailed? Is there really any more room in this property to enhance value? And the answer has to be yes. And a lot of the areas in Dallas are improving. The income levels are going up in some of these places. The number of jobs in the area is going up, so they're not static environments. Today, a suburb of Dallas is not the same place as it was 20 years ago because now there are four times as many people living in the area, shopping in the area, working in the area, and those people are all competing for housing.

James: Wow, that's interesting. Okay, so how do you underwrite your deals? I mean I'm sure you're looking for upside, right? That's what you talk about in any deals and whether you can make a return on your investment, right?

Rich: I'll tell you my tricks of the trade, which is nothing unusual; first of all, we go into the numbers and make sure we understand the expenses. And we also increase the property taxes based on what we think the assessor will increase the taxes too. Yeah, that's a really big thing; people don't realize they come from out of the outside Texas that your property is assessed every year a new bag. So you can't look at a tax that your seller's paying and think that you're going to have the same tax. So we get the real expenses, and then if we're going to do a value add, we want to find a property that's very similar, same vintage and everything that's already done the value add and see what rent they're achieving, what they've done, and we're not going to go past that.

In other words, I'm not going to be a pioneer and decide that I need golden faucets or Berber carpets or whatever it is; I'm going to make a nice value-add, the same as everybody else. Maybe you are a little better, but I'm not going to a guest that I can get more rent, so that's where I get my revenue, just estimating how many of this was going to renovate? What rents can we get today, today in the marketplace, not tomorrow? And then use those numbers, and if those numbers show that I can get a great return based on what it costs and what the money we put into the property, then it's a go. If the numbers, there's nothing here, I can't get a return from doing this or the rents are tapped out, that kind of thing. Then I pass. And we use a model. I think we use the CRM model. We bought the model because it got too complicated for Excel for us. And so we use a model that we bought to program the IRR and all that stuff.

James: What about the rent growth assumption? How do you usually predict that?

Rich: We don't put more than two or 3% a year in there? We're not looking to create false expectations. 5% rent growth sounds nice, but that doesn't happen all the time. In fact studies in Houston show that there's been virtually no rent growth in two or three years in Houston. And every year they say that they had four or 5% rent growth. And I asked the realtors, is the four or 5% rent growth that these reports say? And nobody seems to know where the data's coming from.

James: Yeah, absolutely. But do you think we can get that 3% rank growth moving forward from now on the next five years? I mean, do you think it's real estate?

Rich: I think we can get the two to 3% rent growth just by doing nothing; if you're in a market that is strong.

James: So it depends on the market as well.

Rich: It all depends on one thing and one thing only, which is wage growth in the market you own.

James: Correct.

Rich: I own a lot of property in San Antonio and there was virtually no wage growth in San Antonio. And I have property that I've owned there now six years, seven years. And the last two or three years there's been virtually no increase in wage growth or rents in none of these markets. The cap rates keep going down, so people keep paying more for these properties. They expect wage growth and rent growth, so everyone has a different expectation.

James: Got it, got it. So what about the, I mean, you mentioned that I mean, you did this for 20 years, own like 8,000 units, you could have multiplied 10 X your holdings by going with private equity money which some people have done. And some people have gone to private equity and came back to be a [inaudible41:31]. Some people are trying to get into working with private equity because it's easier to rent and raising money from retail investors which is like family and friends. I know you mentioned some perspective, but can you give a full perspective on why you didn't choose that route at all?

Rich: Well, we do have family and friends, and private equity, and some family offices in our deals. I have three deals that I have is tuition in, and I just prefer the flexibility that-- I prefer working with individuals and with people I know because multifamily is not a straight line. You buy something a lot of times prizes after you close, you don't know, some problems that you run into. Sometimes you have to replace staff. A lot of times you have a staffing issue. It could take a year or two longer to execute your business plan. And still, it's very good. When you execute your business plan, you make a lot of money, but instead of taking one or two years, it could take five years or four years. And when you have institutional money, they're not very patient and they are very willing after; if you don't make your numbers for one to two years, they're very willing to take the management away or threaten you with your cramming, taking away your investment. Actually, you're cramming down; they call it crammed down; to make the return.

It can be pretty nasty, so that's one of the reasons. It's getting easier to raise money from family offices privately. There are a number of crowd-sourcing platforms; we've done some crowd-sourcing rising for a couple million dollars as infill, you know, to fill in a partnership after a family or friends invest, and we still have a couple million left. Well, we've been successful at raising that money there. We've also used preferred equity, which is kind of a hybrid deal. It's not secondary financing, like mezzanine financing, but it's similar. What they do is there is a pay, they want a pay rate of around four to 6%, and then they want a complete return of let's say nine to 11% or 12%. They'll take the difference when you sell the property well when you refinance. So, it gives you more leverage, you might say, but it's not partnership money, so it reduces the money that you have to raise as a partnership.

James: Got it, got it. And what would you give advice to people who are saying that you know, when the market turns, I mean, they will not be any more private investors anymore, I mean, you have to go back to private equity? Do you think that's the true case?

Rich: You mean institutional equity? You have to go back to-- that's all private equity. I think the reality is when the market turns, everyone goes back into their little clamshell, so what you call it and money is money. And if people don't feel that they can make a return, then they won't invest. Now, what happens is that if the market turns and people are not making return, some deals will go south and will go sour, and then you'll start a new cycle of this trust real estate. And then there'll be opportunity funds or vulture capital guys who are trying to invest in those deals and they'll be looking to invest. So every part of the cycle has a different kind of investor. Right now the profile of the average investor is looking to clip coupons. Most people know that the glory days of making two, 300% on their money is over and they're very happy with what they'd done and now they really don't want to lose their principal. There have gotten more conservative as wealthier people do, and then they say, well, can I get a seven or an 8% or 6% coupon clip every month when you send me a check? And there are a lot more of those people today. There is virtually none of those people in 2008, nine, 10, 11, 12. Yeah, but today, most people have the profile as investors of wanting to have lower risk and are willing to take less reward.

James: So what you're saying is in 2008, everybody disappeared; nobody invests retail, right? And then after that, there is some vulture capital and then now people are looking more into stabilized assets with lower risk.

Rich: The people who appeared in 2008 were the people who worked at Goldman Sachs or Blackstone or these other Carlisle group and these other large accumulators of capital. And what they saw is a tremendous amount of blood on the street as they say. They saw just a lot of financial suffering and they were looking at enabling because of their massive amounts of capital to scoop up troubled assets for pennies on the dollar. So a lot of the mortgages that went bad were sold off for 20, 30, 50% of their mortgage value to these conglomerate; these large companies. And then they went through the process of foreclosing on individual assets. Some of them actually created management companies themselves, and they got the properties back. A bunch of then they put them back on the market and made a lot of money. So there was a lot of business, a lot of wealth created in that time frame, but it wasn't created by people like you and I, it was created in Goldman Sachs, and in Blackstone, and these kinds of places.

James: Got it, got it. So where do you think we are heading in the next two or three years or five years? Are we going to have a slowdown bump or it's going to be a crash into like 2008 or there is just going to be a coupon rolling in multifamily?

Rich: I don't think that we're going to have a crash. I see it more that it's just a steady market and I just think it's going to go up and down a little bit here and there, and I don't see much change from where we are for a couple of more years. I can't see out too far into the future. Sometimes politics and things like that intercede, and we don't know if someone politically comes in and starts changing the tax code like they did in 1986 or something like that. But the way I see it is that America is fundamentally becoming a retro society. People are living a lot longer, and the longer people live the less they want to own a house. A lot of people will own houses and raise families there, but they will exit houses more and more frequently to live in places like central cities or small main street America so they can be near services and doctors and entertainment and [inaudible 49:41].

And I don't think that we're going to go back to the white picket fence for everybody's environment. Now, that doesn't mean people won't buy houses, but when people are not raising children, they will prefer generally to live in smaller environments, more like Europeans do, and I think that pertains, well, for multifamily. There are so many good trends that are feeding into the multifamily trough that I can't imagine right now that in general, multifamily would have a crash.

James: Got it, got it. And so we're coming almost to the end of the show. Can you give us one advice to people who are thinking of becoming like you owning thousands of units and they're just getting started?

Rich: Sure. So this is my main piece of advice is that if you want to be in this realm, then you must make it a full-time job. This is not an investment, multifamily is not a stock that you-- it's not putting money on Microsoft and watching it go up and down. It's an active business, and if we're going to try to be somebody who owns several apartment complexes, then you just really can't buy the complexes and hand away the keys to the management company and expect great results. You have to be very actively involved, visit your properties, know the rents in the market, walk vacant apartments, and make sure you hire good people. It really is a business, and if you're not prepared because of your lifestyle, your other job or something like that to devote most of your time to this business, then my recommendation is become a limited partner in a deal or two, try to make money that way. But don't think that you could become a principal and own five or 10,000 apartments that way, no, it's not going to happen.

James: Got it. I mean, this is one of the requests from our listeners. Is there anyone advice that you want to give to a passive investor who is investing in this deal? What they should look for [inaudible 52:14]?

Rich: Well, the big issue for passive investors is that they should really understand what they're investing in, like any other investment, and not take the offering that they get from the company or the operator at its face value because it could be too optimistic. You want to make sure you agree with the assumptions. So you would probably at the very least get on the computer and look at how much are units really renting for in that area. If they're going to renovate, well, what does a renovated unit look for? Is this an achievable rent that they're projecting and are their expenses realistic? Are they in line with what expenses really shouldn't be? So do a little homework; that's my main thing, and don't just trust that, just because somebody sent you something that said that there's a 30% return, that that's a real thing.

James: Yeah, I have many, many times some passive investors just look at the final return numbers and decide whether they want to invest or not, but they forgot that we are making thousands of assumptions in that spreadsheet. So you rather check the assumptions rather than just the final numbers.

Rich: Absolutely.

James: Right, so Rich we're really happy to have you here. How can the listeners and audience reach out to you?

Rich: Well, they could, we have a website, alcapgroup.com and they can send me an email through there. If they want to know about our upcoming deals, we'd be happy to put them on their list and work with them, talk to them, and see if we can do some business together.

James: Awesome, awesome. Thank you very much Rich for coming onto the show.

Rich: Thanks James, been a pleasure.

James: Pleasure to have you. Thank you.

James: Hey, audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy and you're listening to Achieve Wealth Podcast where we talk about value-add real estate investing and we interview a lot of commercial real estate operators where you can grab a pen and a paper and start learning.

So today we have Jake and Gino from Wheelbarrow Profits. And Jake and Gino own around 1500 units with 1000 of that units were done solely by them without any syndication. And they have another 400 units, which they started syndication and their primary focus is on Southeast market. Right now, the deals are in Tennessee and Kentucky. So, Hey guys, welcome to the show.

Gino: Hey, James. How you doing? Nice to be here.

Jake: Hey, thank you for having us.

James: Yeah. Did I miss out anything in terms of introducing you guys?

Gino: Well, I mean, for me, I've got six kids. I mean that's probably my biggest achievement to date. I live down in Florida. I relocated two years ago from New York to Florida. I'm a certified life coach. I think that's a really big accomplishment for me and I've got a fantastic partner on the other end. So that's what I guess made my success, having an amazing partner, having an amazing person pushing me and telling me, Hey Gino, we need to buy this deal. Hey Gino, you know, we need to write this book. And I'm like, come on, another thing? So having a great partner really will excel you in life. Did leave anything out, Jake?

Jake: We're economic deserters. We left the high tax Northeast for a better life of sunshine and rainbows and I'd [01:54unclear] friend. No, it's been a great ride. You know, Gino and I, back in 2011, started really looking hard at multifamily. We wanted yield. We wanted something that was going to pay us every month. We had very challenging jobs at the time. I was under threat of layoff all the time. Gino was in the back of the kitchen trying to make sure that he could get dishwashers in every night. And ultimately, we knew there was more to life than what we were experiencing and we sought out to make it happen for ourselves.

So we got into the first deal. It was a tough one. It was a 25 unit and we've never looked back. We've done multifaceted, multifamily ever since. We have four core businesses, we have property management, we have education, we have a mortgage brokerage, we have an investment business and over 20 holding companies to go along with that. So we really look at multifamily, you know, being the place to be because we know that it's a basic human need and we've grown our brands all within the multifamily space. And it's been, again, just a fantastic ride. We've focused a lot on culture scale, and growing the business day in and day out. We had an epiphany moment a few years ago that we were working too hard and we're running around doing everything.

We call it the, 'I'm a' mentality. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. I'm going to do everything. 'I'm a' could only go so far. So I'm ahead to bring some friends. So Jake and Gino, you know, brought some friends on and we started scaling up. And you know, we've got some really great people on the team and I think that's one of the things, I get so much of the enjoyment out of it. Cause I see these people coming on really with us and they just grow and they excel and then we've created a home for them.

Jake: And James, more importantly, that only started with a 25 unit property with $27,000 from Jake, myself and my brother, Mark. So that's the amazing thing. Talking about where to start. I'm too young, I'm too old, the market's too hot. I don't have enough money. Those are all myths that people want to tell themselves. What they're lacking is they're lacking innovation, they're lacking education, they're lacking creativity and they're lacking mastermind. Those are the things that I lacked when I used those excuses.

And if you want to use those excuses, that's fine. But we have so many Jake and Gino community members that are in their twenties and they're in their sixties and they've gone out and they're doing deals. So if you want to get into multifamily, you need to educate yourself first.

James: Yeah, very interesting. You guys are really, really vertically integrated. I mean, as you've mentioned, you guys own property management, asset management and also have a renovation team. And you also do some agency that representation right to the test lenders, I guess for the agency, which is really good. I mean I have the first three but not the last one. Question is, I mean, how did you guys do this 1000 units on your own? I can tell you there's not many people who have done like even like a what, 300 units on their own, right? Everybody syndicates, right? Including me; I syndicate, I used to own...I mean I still own some single-family, which I'm selling off right now, but all my deals are syndicated and a lot of people I talk to use syndication. But how did you guys go from that 25 units to 1000 units on your own?

Gino: We weren't that smart, first of all. We thought that's how you had to do it, to be completely honest with you. Because we said, Hey, we got to buy a deal. We'll buy the deal. We buy it, right? The three-step framework, if you see the wheelbarrow behind me, it's buy right, manage right and finance right. You need to do all three of those. We were buying them right and we're still buying the assets right.

It's truly important that you need to buy the asset right. So we buy these assets, we refinanced the assets and we wouldn't go and buy Ferrari's. We'd actually repurpose that money into the next deal. What really propelled us was we bought a 281 unit property. It was $11 million. It was owner finance. The owner basically said, here you go, here are the keys. We actually had about $120,000 come back to us at closing.

Now that doesn't happen every day, but that happens when you're ready and when you are integrated and you know the business model and you know, to take advantage of that. That really, really propelled us because we were able to refinance that property. So to date, we've refinanced over $9 million of our proceeds. We've rolled that right back into the business and we continued to grow that way. But James, to be honest with you, if we'd been syndicating through three years ago, we'd probably be at the 5,000 unit mark, which is maybe that's great, that's not great but that wasn't our path.

We started syndicating back in November because we saw we could create another multiple stream of revenue, create the asset management company, that syndication company, for syndication. And I had five or 600 investors on our platform because of the Jake and Gino brand. I just couldn't utilize them. We didn't have the space so we brought on another partner to start that business and that's been a fantastic business. We've done two syndications, we've got another deal in the contract right now and we're continuing to grow that. And James, as you know, they feed each other. It's just wonderful. You go to an event, you speak, you do podcasts, the education can sell education, sell books, and then you know what, you're positioning yourself as an authority leader. And on top of that, you're bringing investors on board and you're teaching people how to do it and you're getting the deal source. And it's just such a symbiotic, beautiful relationship.

James: Yeah, it's very interesting because I mean right now, like for example, I was told once, I mean you can do syndication, but your end goal is to own some of the units. But you guys are going the other way.

Jake: We started backward, James. I'm going to tell you something, and this is what I want your listeners to hear because it's the kind of thing where a lot of people are afraid of nonrecourse financing. And we'll tell you right now, non-recourse financing has made me rich and it's made Gino rich; fortune sides with him who dares. We took a chance on it. We couldn't even get into agency debt back when we first started. We were doing a lot of deals that would have been qualified for what is now known as Freddie Mac SBL. Okay. We took on the recourse debt. We had a lot of battles on the front end with the banks. I say a lot of times, it's just as hard negotiating the deal as negotiating the deal with the banks a lot of these times.

So we went in, we fought some good battles. As Gino said, we manage these assets, right? And then we were able to take the financing and sometimes we'd finance the deal once with a community bank and then sometimes you'll refinance it again and send it out to nonrecourse financing over time. So we just really did, we focused on buying these things, right. Adding a ton of value to them and then extracting the value, holding the assets longterm, not selling them, keeping the cost segregation going. And really my view of these is that we're going to buy them, we're going to manage them right. And the party is going to keep going because we're not going to sell them off if we're buying a deal in house. If we're buying a deal in house, we're gonna keep adding assets to it. Keep the cost SEG going and keep that party rolling.

James: But what's your end goal is syndication. I know syndication can grow very quickly in terms of unit counts, right? But your shared...

Jake: But it's not about just growing the unit counts for us, right? We want to have a tool in the toolbox that fits every deal. And we were talking before we got on the show today that we just bought a very hairy deal. It's 26 per unit. People were not being taken care of. It's 146 units. We have 40 vacancies right now. We didn't syndicate that. That was not a good deal necessarily for us to syndicate, but I know over time that deal's going to pay us back very handsomely. So was that a deal that we want to syndicate? Probably not. We're doing a deal right now. It's very clean. It's going to be a nice cash on cash return, right down the alley for syndication. We just want to, you know, any deal that comes our way, we want to, if it's going to cash flow, there's going to be an opportunity, we want to have a vehicle or tool to take that down. And syndication is just one of those tools. Find it in house is another one.

Gino: And I think the opportunity we have now, to piggyback off of that, as where we are in the market, in the market cycle right now, you just gotta be careful of what you're buying. You have to be buying assets in pretty good locations, with pretty good rent growth because when the economy slows down, you want to be able to continue to have your occupancy and run 94-95%. You don't want to see rents dropping. So you gotta be careful what you're buying. Would we've been buying these assets three and four years ago? No, the opportunity was more of those value-adds. Now there's less of an opportunity for our value adds because those prices are already built up. I mean, we went and bought an asset in November at 45 a door. Two years ago, it would have been 30 a door, but that's where we are in the market.

So with that value add, it's very difficult because you've got to put more loan to value. So you've got to put more money down on these deals and there's more risk, as going out 18 months or 24 months, if you're not able to make those preferred payments, you know, they're going to come knocking at you. And then the investor's going to say, well, why did we make the draw this and this quarter? Well, we were trying to reposition it for the long game. That's the thing with multifamily. Everybody out there, multifamily is a long game. It's number one, but debt and taxes, number two, it's about having a business. If you're not going to run the business, somebody has to run the business. And number three, it's a long game. You're not going to get paid today or tomorrow. You're going to be the farmer planting the seed, watering the seed, and waiting six months or 12 months for it to grow. That's why it's hard to get into multifamily because people love transactions. This is not so much transaction-based business unless you start getting into it and then a year, two years down the road, you can create some transactions by refing or by selling or by trading up. But when you start out, it's hard because it's that instant gratifying.

Jake: James, I want to say one thing that just piggyback on Gino here and what he's saying is many of you out there may be syndicating deals and we love syndicating. We love buying deals ourselves. Just keep in mind the syndicators that are the most successful are that they understand that the work starts after you bought the deal. Just because you're syndicating, you need to have that one on one connection, even if you're doing third party management. James, we were talking earlier that you know, he runs his own a property management group. That's when the real work starts folks. So you know, whether you're syndicating, whether you're buying in house, tee it up, make sure you're financing it right. Make sure you're buying it right. But then that managed piece, just because you know, you may not be running direct property management, you need to be having those weeklies with that property management, making sure you're nailing your KPIs.

James: Yeah. I also think that the managed portion makes the most money. Do you guys agree with that?

Gino: I totally agree with that 100% because that's where you're going to increase your NLI. You're either going to increase the income, decrease the expenses, create systems and be able to scale. But the problem that Jake and I had when we hit 650 units, we were still just telling somebody this the other day, we were still using rent posts and we fumbled upon that folio and that was the biggest aha moment. All of a sudden we said to ourselves, it doesn't matter how many units you add onto your portfolio, if you're not managing them efficiently and extracting as much value from them, that's going to be a big problem. So I think managing is the most important. It's ongoing.

Jake: There's more to it though, to James' point. Here's why. Once you buy the deal, there's no going back. You paid the money, you paid that price. That is fixed. That's why I always talk about the back leg of the wheelbarrow being fixed. If you finance the deal for 10 years, and I don't care if you have stepped down or you have your maintenance defeasance wherever you want to say, you're fixed, what are the levers do you have to pull? It's the management arm of it. That's the piece that you're going to be able to. Exactly. Right. That's a great point.

James: Yeah. Yeah, so that's why I always tell my friends and my followers in my Facebook group and all the people who come to me; the operations where you make the most money because before you buy the deal you are putting a proforma, right? You think it's going to be like that. You think it's going to be like that. You think it is going to be 3% operation. You think insurance is going to be this much. Right? So it's a lot of assumptions, but once you close on the deal, it's avail game, right? You are like, Hey, you know, now you have every tool in the box to really trap. That's where you really make the money and you, if you really work hard on the operation, you can make at least, you know, 2-3% more than if you give it to a third party management. Because third party management, they have a lot of other issues. It's not their baby.

Jake: You're not the only customer. Here, we're the only customer baby.

James: And they have a different profit center that they need to really make sure.

Jake: And we won't take on other clients. We only manage our stuff because it's ours and you're absolutely right. We're managing our baby, we're making sure our babies are doing well. There are little soldiers out there working for us. We want them to keep returning.

James: Yeah. Yeah. And also [13:28unclear] if you look at even your own operation, I can decide to, let's say my occupancy drop, I can reduce my staff today just by a phone call. Right. And reduce my expenses as well because my income is reduced. Right. So, but you can't do that on a third party. Right. You are like at the mercy of them. Right.

Gino: I agree with that. And you're also controlling; you're controlling. You can add on more employees. You can actually say to yourself, Hey listen, I want to implement this system. I want to raise my rents so you can have real-time. That's what's great about it.

Jake: Even think about the marketing piece. They may be using, you know, apartments or they may be using roof or whatever they're using and you tell them, well, I want you to stop using that. Well, that might be two or three emails or a week-long conversation to actually get that pulled out. And they may tell you, fly kite here, we just kill it.

James: Yeah, we just kill it. Yeah.

Jake: Move on. There's no question.

James: I have to give credit to my wife. She runs the property management side of it.

Jake: She must be a strong woman.

James: She's a very strong woman.

Jake: We should have her on the show.

James: She's at the property today. So I do the underwriting and investor relationship and acquisition and she does the construction and property management. And you need a lot of...

Jake: You're taking it easy, then man. Come on, you gotta get hurt...

James: My work is a lot on the front end. Right? But one it's closed, it's her work. And I do help out a lot too. Right? So, let's go back to a bit more details on syndication was owning, right? Because this is something that I've been thinking, right? Because Hey, you know, I was like you guys when in the beginning, I did a lot of short term loan, bridge loan and we make a lot of money for us. I syndicated, but my investor was so happy with it, he made so much money. But now with the market being at peak and there are not many deals out there, you know, we have to still get good cash flowing. We still do value-add deal, but no more deep value add deals. Right. So I presume that's what you guys are doing, right? Still, value-add deal but no more like a deep value add when you syndicate.

Jake: No, even the one we just did, we were talking about that; we did it in December, it was 26 a door and we're going in new decks, all new interiors and we have a ton of vacancies. I'm not afraid of it. The key is though, since we have our own management group, I don't want to take on five of these things at once because it's a resource issue at that point. We have resources to do one real heavy value add at the time so we're fine having one of those in the mix. But if you start stacking them, you know you really got to add team members and that's when it gets even more challenging. So for our size of scale right now, I'm very good with, you know, one at a time, getting it kind of rolled up. And we kind of we're just coming off the tail end of another one and then we ramped up into this one. So it's been working out for us.

Jake: So the problem with this deal, not the problem, the opportunity with this deal is we're using community financing. We've got an 85% LTV with loan to cost. So we've got 80% of the loan proceeds going into doing the cap-ex work. We're going to refi that property and bring it to the agency once it's all done. So there's the value there. And the only thing was when we bought it, we were able to have economies of scale. It's near a couple of our other assets are, we're able to use maintenance guys on that property. So that's another one of the reasons why we're able to do that cause just added to our portfolio. If this was something I was all by itself in, you know, down somewhere [16:30 unclear] assets, maybe you'd think twice. But there's always other reasons for doing the deal. And that was really one of the important factors that we saw.

James: And at what point did you start syndication? What was the timeframe? Was it like last year, two years ago?

Gino: So we started, we actually when we came off of our first event, I signed up like 30 people in our event back in November of 2017. I said to Jake, I've got all these investors floundering and that's the thing, when you're signing up investors, James, you have an important role. You need to reach out to those investors and you need to make substantive relationships. You need to start giving them value or else they're going to fall off. So I felt compelled to say to Jake, we need to start creating these relationships with these investors. We decided to hire somebody on and become a partner of that company. The beginning of 2018, February, March, April, we started ramping up, took us a few months to find our first deal. We find our first deal in August and that period timeframe for us, our first syndication, getting the PPM is soft commitments, emails.

It was pretty overwhelming and daunting but we did a small deal. It was only $6 million. It was 132 units. It was something where you can like consume and do your first deal for us. We raised $2.6 million in two days because we had all the framework, we were ready to go, we had the investors, they were prime, we had the podcast, we had the brand out there. But one thing with syndication that's a little different is things move really quickly, and it's a little nerve-wracking that you have to get everything in order. You have to get your emails out, you have to have your documents down, you have to have everything in order. You have to make sure that, you know, you get your webinars going and everything's spelled out clearly to your investors. And that's why it took us a little bit longer cause we had never taken money from the investors. So when it's your money and cash flows and come into the month, Jake says, Gino, septic fields scrapped out. We're not getting paid this month. I can deal with it.

Jake: Plus there was a demand thing we had people asking for it. And it was kind of like at some point where they're going to do, we flirted with the idea for so long as either we're going to do it or not. So we gave it a shot.

Gino: And that's the thing we could have bought that deal without syndication. But I think it was just the ideal opportunity. It was a new market. It was small enough for us to say, you know what, we can handle this with the syndication. Let's try it. You just got to commit and then figure it out. And that's what we ended up doing. We committed to doing it. We worked with a great attorney, Kim Taylor. She walks through the process. We had great team members and then we just ended up pulling the trigger and we ended up closing in November of 2018 and we followed up with another purchase in April of 2019. About six weeks ago, we closed on a deal and at an additional 240 units in that market. So it's a great learning plus. Once you do one, you figure it out, you figure out the ramifications, the webinars, adding the investors on the documents. And then it's just 'rinse and repeat'.

James: Yeah. I think you guys are the example of why syndication exists, right? So syndication is not like a get rich scheme, right? Not everybody can do it. Not like somebody who was doing W2 can or can do, I'm not saying they must do syndication, right? So in my mind, syndication is like a mixture of an experienced operator, right? So you guys have proven that operator and there are some passive investors which want to place that money into this experienced operator, right? So if I'm getting some guy who was coming up from a boot camp or a 2-day course and trying to do syndication that he doesn't have the experience, I mean he might be coached by someone who's experienced, but I think that's where the syndication comes very powerful, right? When you marry people who really want to be passive with people who are really, really good at what they're doing that's where you get the beautiful marriage there. Right?

Gino: Also students who want to raise deals for others. So James, let's say you're coming short on a raise and you say, Hey, listen, I need to get some way, maybe you can get somebody to raise money for your deal. Obviously they have to be comfortable with you as the operator, as a sponsor. And Jake and Gina is a sponsor with a lot of students start that way by raising money for other people's deals, getting in the game, putting a little lower skin in the game and learning how the syndication process works. And then learning how much work there really is and saying, wow, this syndicator is not putting any money in this deal. But there's a lot of work and there's a reason why there's no money going on the GP side of the business. It's they're signing under debt and they're doing a lot of work for this and that's a great way for people to start getting in the business. Raise a little bit of money for another syndicator if they need that platform, then learn that process. And that's how you learn the process and then you can move on and succeed in getting your own deals.

James: Yeah, absolutely. What's the structure? Can you guys walk through the structure of your company, right? Because you have property management, asset management, you have renovation team, you do some kind of a mortgage brokering as well. On top of that you have an education platform, right? So how big is the whole team?

Jake: You know, probably and not including vendors and whatnot, it's probably just shy of 60 people,

James: 60 people. And how many people...I mean, property management would be the biggest, I guess.

Jake: Oh yeah. Property management is definitely the biggest. And you know, I'm really excited. You know, we do these weekly meetings. I'll meet with every property manager weekly. You know, we meet with the managers of the different divisions of our companies and we call them weekly L10s and we're just really looking forward to this year cause we're gonna really bring everyone together. I think one of the biggest things is when you start to scale and you start to grow, that culture piece is tremendous. Last year we did this big whitewater rafting trip. We brought everyone out. So we're looking for another event this year, but we're going to break down the barriers. We're going to get the core values going, get the tee shirts, bring everyone together for an event. And it's going to be interesting because what we're trying to do now is even get those synergies amongst the different companies jamming that much better together. Get everyone walking to the same beat and so I'm very excited about that.

James: And how many of the 60 people, like a property management. Do you have a number?

Jake: Well, we're going to be creeping up close to 46-47 on that soon. So, you know, we'll have a couple on the investment side of the business and then a handful on the continue education side.

James: Okay. Okay.

Jake: Okay. Property management and that's including our renovation team called the cap-ex crew. They are the elite Navy seal ninjas of property management and they go in when others can't, they get it done.

James: Yeah. So your renovation crew is supposed to be, I mean it's in house, but it's not really announced in terms of financial, right, because they're not supposed to be part of the P& L right? Is that correct?

Jake: Yeah. So that's basically going through the property management group.

James: Okay. Okay. Yeah. That's very interesting. And how did you guys...

Jake: He wants to see an income statement now, Gino.

James: Because...

Jake: I'm just messing with you man.

Gino: So James, I'll dive into the education a little bit more. We started the education about four years ago. October 2015 we launched the book with our profits behind me and it was just me basically quit my restaurant and said, Jake, I need to do something. I'm in New York. Let's start a podcast. And we didn't know why we started the podcast. We should have probably started it to get investors. But we just started because we wanted to learn. I mean, how many times can you speak to Ken McCroy or you know, Robert Kiyosaki for an hour, right? I mean, it's just amazing. So that's where we started. And then from that, we said, okay, how do we continue to build this? So we started selling, creating educational products. We wrote the book, we have trainings on Kajabi, we have mentorships, we have coaching.

And to grow and scale that business, I can't be doing one on one coaching all the time. So we hired a community director. We've got an operations manager in that business full time. We've got three part-time, we've got three full-time sales guys. We've got four coaches right now. We have two deal review coaches on top of our accountability coaches. So as you start growing, you commit, you figure it out, you start scaling up. But the real thing that you need to do is you need to get really qualified people. You need to get great people. Like Jake talks with the culture and our culture is basically a blue-collar work ethic. It's we don't want to hear 'it's not my job' because I'm still packing books. I'm still doing $5 an hour work when I have to. And Jake's doing the same thing. And I want that to convey those small startups with Jake and Gino and we're going to be able to expand this. We're gonna be doing weekend events to just start selling more products and we're going to start bringing on more sales guys. And as the community grows, I think that culture is going to be pervasive throughout all of the entire organization where it's like customers first, you know, students first. It's not me, it's we and whatever it takes gets done. I think that can permeate throughout all of the layers and all the multifaceted multifamily. And that's really important. So when we first thought about Jake and I, Jake will tell you, he thought culture was crap and it was working corporate because it didn't serve him. But I think as he sees it, it's everything right now. Because when they see Jake and I working hard and doing that, it just, you're the leader, you're supposed to be part. If you're going to put in a mission statement in words, and I got house rules over here, if you're not following your own house rules, how do you think your employees are going to follow the house rules.

Jake: James, nothing fires me up more than 'it's not my job'. You want to see the roof come off this house right now, smoke start coming out of my ears. That's the one thing that I can't handle.

James: My wife and I get upset when somebody said I do not know, I said, don't tell me 'I don't know'. Tell me, 'I'll figure it out'.

Jake: Or you know, let's ask and work on it. You know, it's like I can handle that a lot easier than 'it's not my job'. Cause that's like a moral and a work ethic issue and everyone else is working so hard and you're going to sit there and say something like that.

James: It's a clash between ownership mentality. I mean, especially with the property management, right, with the ownership mentality and employee mentality, right? Because a lot of times in property management, the people are working with employee mentality, but owners, we are more, we want to see the profit. We want to be really part of the profit center. Make sure everything runs as how we want for the investors. At the same time...

Jake: Gino knows about the blue-collar work ethic. We finished up a podcast with who was the guy that used to be in Bigger Pockets, who was the guy there? It was Brandon and Josh. And we got a video. We were out there one day. A tree fell across one of our assets that we just bought and was laying across the sidewalk. You know, we didn't have anybody at the time to do it. So Gino and I went down there, took out the chainsaw, chop that bad boy up, threw it in the back of the trailer and made a day of it. We got a video, I think it's still out there on YouTube, so it doesn't matter. I don't care what job it is, I'll do it all myself if we have to.

That's not how you scale, number one. That's 'I'mma' mentality. But if it comes down to it, if it needs to be done and there's no one else to do it, I'm going in and I'm going to do it. It's just period.

James: Awesome. Awesome. That's the work ethic, right? Sometimes you have to do it.

Jake: It's gotta get done. Somebody has got to do it. And the idea is to build a machine and put the systems in place to make sure it runs fluidly. You know, every day the best work that I can do is help working on the machine and building the machine. But it's not always going to be there. And sometimes, you know, a bolt falls off and if I gotta be the guy to screw it back on, I'm going to do it.

Gino: I think it's important to say that the machine isn't built from the very first day. From the very first day you're going to grow as a person. So four years ago, I wasn't doing the best work of what I had to do. I was just doing whatever work I needed to do. But now as you scale, and as you're able to do that, as you become financially free, you can start thinking about working on the business as apart as the working in the business. And the first three or four years, Jake and I were really working in the business. And we weren't able to create these multiple streams of revenue. We're just surviving and learning. And that's fine. That's what everyone's progression is. But once you get into it, when you start doing it, you can start transitioning out and start like what Jake said, start creating those systems. But if you don't start with a 25 unit property, you're never going to be able to do what you know, what actually transpires after.

James: Awesome. Let's go to some market selection questions. So how did you guys select this market?

Gino: Well, it's funny, Jake was going down in 2011 he moved down there and I had it on one of my other podcasts with my wife. He went to Knoxville, move there for six months without his wife, struggled. I mean, it's not an easy thing. He left New York, he abandoned New York and I'm up there at the restaurant. I had just met him and I'm like, Jake, these numbers work down here. Let's start looking at deals in Knoxville. His metrics for moving was; there were no state income tax, close to New York, decent weather, cost of living is great. So he moves to Knoxville. And ironically, enough, that's what makes it a pretty good market to invest in multifamily, right?

James: Population growth.

Gino: And we got lucky, we got lucky with that one. But we started investing, we started looking at deals. I think, you know, the Southeast is great. So like you said, we're vertically integrated within three hours of Knoxville. So that's what we're looking. I mean, throw a dart, there are so many great cities around there to invest in that market. We don't want to go up in the blue States, we want to stay. Texas is a little bit overbought. I mean, you know why. I mean, you have been an engine of economic growth there. People are flocking there because there are jobs there because there's infrastructure there and because people want to live there. So, that's what's happening. So I think, you know, as far as us, we just got lucky. We picked Knoxville and now we're able to go out into these other markets that mirror what Knoxville is.

Jake: And in addition to that too, we have a specific strategy that we're looking to be the best customer service property management company for C and B apartment complex. We own some A stuff but it's kind of because the deals worked and we bought it, but we see a discrepancy where C and B operators typically do not have that good of customer service. I love what Chick-fillet does with a $7 chicken sandwich. How are you doing today? It's a pleasure to serve you. How can I help you? It's that great customer service and I truly believe that is a blue ocean. That is our blue ocean strategy. It's going to separate ourselves and we rebrand all our properties, brand as our property management company so that when people pull up, they're going to know that these people care. We believe renting is personal and our residents are our number one priority. Okay, that's what we're about and that's the difference in how we run our properties and I think longterm it's not going to happen overnight. That's a longterm strategy is going to take years to fully implement, but that's the separator from us and the other guys.

James: So how do you guys standardize this? You know, the awesome operator experience for class B and C, how do you standardize it across the organization?

Gino: Yeah. Well, first thing you do is you start going on training platforms like Grace Hill, you start systematizing platforms and training. We're creating our own internal training right now for our maintenance techs. And then we're going to transitional to training our leasing techs. That's really important to have something standardized to train them. And I'm doing the same thing on education. So when we were onboard, as a coach, I created a training platform for our coaches to watch videos and show how to coach them. And it's the same way in anything. You want to be able to have something standardized where they're all playing from the same drum.

Jake: So I'd like to elaborate on that a little bit as well because, so it starts with the basic stuff, like Gino mentioned Grace Hill. Now we also have a product called Kajabi where we've taken the Grace Hill training and we have, it's basically our elevated in house training that we're putting on the Kajabi platform where we're teaching our guys if they don't know how to do something, we're having level one, two, three and four for maintenance techs, for example. And then there's a YouTube page where they can go on and actually from their phone remotely check the video, Oh, this is how I need to change out this garbage disposal or thermostat, whatever the case may be.

And so as we're going through, you're talking to us as we're in the middle of launching this entire customer service training program. In addition to that, it started with Grace Hill. We're moving to down to a Kajabi and we're working with Grace Hill on Kajabi at the same time. Once we're done with the maintenance end of it, and we should be done in the next couple of months with that end of it, it's then going to the full-service customer service piece. We have weekend trainings now. I don't want you to think that we're just starting this, but this is how we have the full-on slot of our strategy implementation. In addition to that, we've started working with Petra, they work with scaling up. I don't know if you're familiar with that.

James: No, not Petra.

Gino: Okay. It's Verne Harnish's book, Scaling Up.

Jake: And essentially, they look at people, strategy, execution, and cash. And you know, we've gone through top grading and making sure that we're getting players on the team. But the one piece of that is we fill our funnels up really full. We have all these ideas that we want to implement. So we have a good strategy, we have good people, we have good cash, but it's that execution piece that we need to get better at. So, you know, while we have an education company, we're open-minded and we know we can always grow and get better. So we're bringing in the best of the best. This is, you know, from everything I've seen, the best scale company in the country and they're working on our business as we work on our business to make us the best customer service property management group in the industry. So that's where we're going.

Gino: The cool thing about the whole education platform is we never would have done this training internally if we didn't have Jake and Gino. Because Kajabi is our online training platform for education. So it just bled over. And I've mentioned that, I said Jake, we need to do these videos to show the maintenance tech when he goes in, how to change a toilet, how to fix a hot water heater. This can all be documented by training videos. So if we didn't have the education platform, this never would have been even been a thought in our minds. And I think the other thing when you are going out as a business owner, keep your eyes open to what other businesses are doing.

My son had gotten a job down the street or at a restaurant and I was amazed at how many applications these people were taking in. They had an ADP platform and I said to Jake, this is another scaling up option where we can start onboarding our employees. And it's just a great tool. So, you know, a tip for everybody out there, if you're in multifamily real estate, see what other industries are doing because you can adapt and pull from other industries and use it to your advantage.

Jake: I want to talk about that a little bit though, Gino, because what we're basically getting with that is we've used ADP for years, but they have, I'm going to call ADP plus. It's their, whatever, you know, higher-end product. But they will give us for all our different brands, we will have a very corporate and professional landing page now. So we have something called the ran pride video. It's showcasing our folks, talking about our culture, which, you know, not have a history of the company video. All of these videos will go on these landing pages. So when potential employees want to look at us, Hey, that's what these guys are about. So we're selling ourselves; let's not kid ourselves, we are in the tightest job market in 60 years. So we need to be recruiting the best people in and we're not going to have a good organization.

So we're doing everything we can to make it a great work environment, get great people in the door and keep them. Because once they come in, we have a very low turnover. But you know, from ourselves, marketing ourselves to the outside world, we need to let them know what we're about. And then as they're coming through, they're putting their W2 information all into the ADP. It's all electronically saved in the cloud and that carries them through. It also has the HRS software so that our HR folks can manage that throughout the entire lifespan of their time with us. So we're really focusing, like I said, on scale culture and operations because, you know, the other things, the people, the strategy, the cash we've done very well with. So it's that execution and pulling it through I think is gonna propel us over the next 10 years.

Gino: And James, do you need it when you have 100 units? Maybe not, but if you're thinking of getting bigger, you're going to have to implement all these systems. Don't be overwhelmed with it now at 100 unit market, just think that you know, as you grow as a person, as you grow as a business person, you're going to be able to figure out those ideas and go...

Jake: Yeah, we're laying the framework to go from 50 to 500 employees.

James: Yeah, that's really good because I know Grace Hill, because I use it as well, we use ADP, but I've never heard about HRS and I mean I know about Kajabi, but I didn't know that you guys are using Kajabi as well.

Jake: So we blended the two together and then we're actually using a YouTube page for the videos so that they can get it right from the app on their phone. And it's coming together pretty nicely actually.

Gino: And there are so many app platforms out there. You can use Lightspeed, you can use Kajabi. We are one of the founders on there seven or eight years ago when they launched. So we've been using it for a while and we just got comfortable with it. There are so many different, you know, LMS systems that are out there.

Jake: The executives within our company, they love building this because they see the need for it. So they enjoy it and they're great. You know, there some of the ones out there filming, well not filming uncle Shawn's doing that, but actually, doing the tutorials on the maintenance or the customer service videos. So everyone's getting involved

Gino: And they're creating the assessments too, cause you want to actually have them watch a video and then do the assessments. So they're creating all that also, which is awesome.

James: So let's go into a deal, deal level detail or how do you, I mean, let's say today you get a deal today, right? From broker, off-market, right? So what are the things that you would look at, look at it quickly to either reject it up? Cause I presume a lot of deals, you guys don't even underwrite it, right?

Jake: We do a quick underwriting. So we're looking for cash flow from day one and the opportunity to force appreciation in the future. So what does that mean? You know, if it's a stabilized deal we want to be, I'd love a six and a half cap, you know, if we're a little bit lower than that and you know, six to six and a half cap, I think we can typically make it work if it's in a good location, if we're going to syndicate that deal and we're seeing, you know, 8% cash on cash, we like that. And you know that typically, we'll take it to the next level and start looking a little deeper.

James: Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it. And I presume deep value add, it really doesn't matter on the entry capital, on any of that.

Jake: Let's talk about that. So the deal we just bought, you know, if you're talking about actual is was a, you know, like probably like maybe like a...

James: 2%

Jake: And it was a beat to crap 1970s build. But you know, what are we talking about? Like do we really care what the cap rate is on that deal? No, because we know when it stabilizes the cap rates going to be more like a 12 so it's again keeping your mind open to each deal. What can I do and what's the opportunity with this deal? How do we want to take it down? Is it going to be an in house buy? Is it going to be, you know, a bridge financing, whatever the case may be as an agency? Or is it a syndicated deal? You know, all of these things weave together. And that's the beauty of this game is that we have multiple things that we can do to extract value and create great things. And so, it gives us an opportunity to have fun with it.

Gino: And James, Jake's speaking up specifically, if we're in the 26,000 a unit, we need to add another four or 5,000. If you're into it for 31,000 a door, I know that that asset in right now is trading over 50 a dor. So I know that that right there is a whole month for us. So that's another way I like to look at the per-unit cost of what we're buying. And I like to look at the expenses. If I'm underwriting a deal, we know that the expense should be 4,200 and the operator is running it at 4,900, you know there's value in there. If there's other income that they're generating, that's only 2%, we know typically we can get 10 to 12% of other income. There's another income, there's another value add right there so we're looking for those.

And you know, you'll hear from brokers every day of the week that you can raise rents, you can raise rents. So I have to spend 10K a door to raise a $50 rent, or can I spend 3 K a door and get that same $70 rent bumps. So you have to really try to analyze the market. And I think the other thing you need to be careful is where you're buying. You know, marginal areas, you're not going to get as much elevation right now and it's a little bit riskier. So, you know, we're just buying an asset right now; if it's in a great location, we'd like it. And Jake likes to say he likes to be your Kroger's Wholefoods and Chick-fillet if you can buy in that location...

Jake: Starbucks, bring it on.

James: You guys do value add, right? So let's say your rehab budget got cut into half, right? 50% of what you have. First of all, let me ask you, what is the most...

Jake: Why did that happen and are we playing the what-if game.

James: You never know. Yeah, that's a good question because I want to, tune your mindset to the question that I want to ask. So what is the most valuable value add that you guys have seen?

Jake: What is the most valuable value add? Like what is like did we get the most out of doing flooring? Did we get the most out of...?

James: Correct. Let's say you have a budget got cut. Now you have a small amount of budget.

Gino: That's a great question. It depends on what property you're looking at because some properties may, if you put a dog park and you fix up the clubhouse and you do a good job of the pool, you may not see incremental value on that. But all of a sudden you're keeping the tenants and in your act you have to compete with the property down the street. So on one of our properties, we put a dog park in, we've put a fitness center and we did a nice job in a clubhouse and we actually did a pool and the decking. That didn't translate...I'm thinking, it translate into increased value and increased rents, but it also made be able to compete with other people in the market space. I think landscaping, people don't understand; power washing, landscaping, and painting are three of the most important things.

On our property, when we took over November, we actually had rents at 525; they went to 675. And we saw them in the Google reviews. These tenants were saying, you know what, these people were raising rents, but they care; customer service. That's one of the biggest value adds, customer service. We put out exterior lighting so they feel safe at nighttime. We took care of the landscaping there. We put in a gazebo there. We stripped the parking lot and seal the parking lot. We put in a dog park there. Signage was really important. Not huge amounts of money, but anything to turn the look of the property, the feel of a property, you want to show your tenants and any of your customers that you're adding value and not just going there and raising the prices. At the end of the day, why are you raising the price on me if you're not giving me some type of value?

Jake: I'll dive into it a little bit more too. I mean, the basics that, you know, I feel like that you have to go with a lot of times are, I personally love sheet vinyl. I know a lot of people want to put in the plank and this thing. We have this amazing, it's called nature's trail. If anyone wants to go out and look at it, it's skinny, it's white. So it looks like the barn style flooring, it's beautiful, it's got great, great tones in it. Installed, we're $1.74 a square foot. I mean, that's phenomenal. And it goes in, it looks beautiful. It looks like there's hardware throughout. So if I had to really get down to bare bones and I'm turning a complex, I'm going in with my nature's trail, I'm going in with my proposed gray and I'm going white on the wood. So the woodworks, the trim, and the baseboard, I'm going a nice pure white Sherwin Williams and it gets like a 7004 or something like that.

Jake: And then, in addition to it, the property we did in December, we were like, okay, let's pull back a little bit because we're painting the cabinets. And we saw a little bit of a spike in our available units. So we went back in, we reassessed it, and we said, you know what? It looks too damn good not to, it's an extra 350 bucks. Let's just keep painting the cabinets and then we're back to zero available units. So it's always, I think, and this goes back to what you were saying earlier about being a hands-on operator; looking at these things, looking at your KPIs, saying, what the hell, why do we spike? Oh, it was my fault cause we're being cheap. So we went back in and now we're filling it back up like that.

Gino: At the same time, Jake also, you don't have to spend $170 on a ceiling fan. Maybe you see your supply spiking like they did a year and a half and saying, hold on, this unit doesn't need $170 ceiling fan.

Jake: It's a beautiful $75 ceiling fan. They're beautiful fan blades. You get the multicolor here. So yeah.

James: What do you guys think that, I don't know, this is my experience that I see. I mean a lot of times you can put in Capex and all that, but I think the management itself, just managing it correctly, people are just so happy paying you 50 to $75 more

Jake: But you're talking about customer service then.

James: Yeah, customer service. Yeah, correct. I'm not saying that's the most valuable value add, but I'm just saying in terms of...

Jake: I'll say it. Listen, if you come in and you say it's a pleasure to see you, it's a pleasure to serve you. How may I help you? What can we do to make your unit better? We have this unit today. We're gonna treat you like gold. I'll take that over the new paint.

Gino: Jake also, the other thing is when they call for a maintenance request, don't want to wait six days for hot water heater, you have to get to them.

Jake: You're not going back to the hot water heater on me again; are you? Comeon man.

Gino: I love the hot water heater in my house the other day. 44:20crosstalk] We took over the third property. I remember I was in the restaurant and Jake is sending emails, we're turning units. And we had a client come in and started crying cause we've fixed the stove. He didn't have his stove for how long Jake? It was just like the silliest thing in the world. I mean come on. So, I mean, the customer service is really, when you get a maintenance request, send out the maintenance tech and get it done. You know, that's simple.

James: Yeah. It's just amazing on you to just take care of the tenants or the residents and they are so happy to pay you so much money compared to, why didn't a new ceiling fan you? I mean that's all secondary for me. So it looks like we share the same concept as well. So, let's go back to a bit more personal stuff flow. Maybe, one by one, right? Why do you guys do what you're doing?

Jake: Yeah, I'll get into that. It literally is about control and freedom for me. I am responsible for myself and my family and I was not in a position of control or a position where my family's life was secure. It was in the hands of others and I did not feel good about that. I, ultimately at the end of the day, am responsible for everything that comes into my environment and I need to handle that. Multifamily gave me an opportunity to take control of my destiny. And you know, by adding value to others, I was able to in return receive value. And it's been a phenomenal thing for me because I don't want to be, you know, dependent on Wall Street. I don't want to be dependent on a CEOs decisions. I have a lot of faith and confidence in myself and Gino and I know if we do the right thing it'll come back to us. And again, it's something that I don't ever want to be in a position where my family is worried about, you know, where's their next meal gonna come from. Great thing about all this is we've created abundance in our lives.

And you know, we started something called Ran Carriers last year and we were able to actually feed 10,000 kids for Thanksgiving. And so, you know, we'll see if we can match that or do about 15 this year, Gino. And so it's when you bring abundance into your life, you can't help someone else if you don't have the means to do it. So by us driving the ship, we've been able to create abundance. We've been able to create good homes for folks and we've been able to give back. So it's been pretty special.

James: Awesome. What about you, Gino, why do you do what you do?

Gino: I wouldn't know what to do if I didn't know what I wasdoing right now. I mean, honestly, I'm pretty much financially secure. If I didn't have Jake and Gino, I could just probably live off of the draws of the property. But that gets to be a little boring after a while. So I'm doing what I really like. I mean, the education, growing a business, I always wanted to grow a business from the ground up. I was wanting to help people out by buying properties and by coaching them in motivating and inspiring them. And if I can monetize on that, it's a home run for me. So I enjoy what I'm doing right now. I mean it took me a long time to figure out, and it's funny cause I feel sad for kids coming out of college. What do you want to do when you get older? If you're an adult and you figure it out by the time you're an adult, you're a little lucky. Most adults can't even figure that out.

So Jake talks about it, you know, don't follow your passion. I mean sometimes if you're passionate about opening a restaurant and that's what you want to do, but sometimes it turns into a job. So you just be careful. You know, if you're lucky enough to become financially free and then figure out what you want to do and do something that you love, I think that's like the most important thing in the world for me.

Jake: He's been humbled right now. The G dad is a giver. He likes helping people and you know, not for nothing. The education has allowed people to buy over 3000 apartment units. And I know that's what Gino gets excited about. You know, it's helping other people and, and it's that giving back piece because it's a tremendous community that we have. And the folks inside the community are all like-minded, hardworking individuals. And I think it's because of the, you know, the sort of persona that we give off and we tell people about the values and necessarily what we're about and people are connecting, they're converting and it's been amazing to watch. And they'll get inside the private Facebook group, Hey, we just knocked out a hundred units today and then everyone gets on and start congratulating, how'd you do it? Let's hear about the deal. And it's become great networking. We'd love to see the continued success.

Gino: The phone calls that you get and the 48:42unclear] year-round. When a student says, I just left my job, or I'm leaving New York and I'm moving somewhere else. That's really worth a lot, man. Because when you get those emails saying, Hey, you know, you've changed my life. There's something that, you know, you can't replace that; that's something that you can't put a dollar amount on, cause you're helping others and you change somebody's life and you change someone's family's life. And that multiplies in effects of people that they know. So that's really cool. That's one of the cool things about education.

James: Yeah, that's one thing that you bring to your end days, right? So it's not about the money. I mean, you usually forget how much you've made, but the appreciation that people have shown you for you're helping them, it speaks. Second personal question. I mean, this is probably, each one of you can answer it. Maybe you can combine together. Is there a proud moment in your life that you think you will never forget, that that moment really impacted you then and you are really, really proud of that moment and you want to tell their stories to your grandkids?

Jake: Yeah, I got one. I got one coming up now. And it's not about myself. It has to do with Gino as well. We were at the event last year, we had a phenomenal event in Nashville, you know, and Gino calls them the 'do rules'. We had over 500 people there, whatever. And it was all about multifamily for two days and just great speakers. It's our annual event, multifamily mastery. And that it wasn't necessarily anything other than it created an opportunity for my daughter. And she went out there and Gino's kids were there and they were learning business and we had some fun shirts that said like Jake and Gino are multifamily masters or something. But my daughter at the time was three years old, she went out and started networking with people and she actually sold a shirt for like 15 or 20 bucks and then she came over and she was so proud. She hugged me and told me about it and I was able to announce it to the whole room and the whole room like erupted because it was just, you know, it's this little girl going out there and then she was making it happen. So I'll never forget that. And it just is, you know, because of the community that it created that moment for me. So that was very special to me.

Gino: So we'll leave it at that cause I've got so many stories, but that's one story.

James: Take one story.

Gino: I mean one of my proud moments March 1st, 2016 when I left the restaurant and it wasn't because I was leaving a bad situation. It was finally saying to myself that I achieved something that I had been working for forever. I finally was saying to myself, I don't have to do that anymore. I have been there doing it for 20 years, over 20 years, locked in the same job and if I can change after 20 years and having those limiting beliefs and being able to grow and do something different, I think I just wanted to inspire other people that do that. So that was really a proud moment in my life.

James: Awesome. Awesome. We're at the end of the show, why not you guys tell the audience and listeners about how to get in touch with you guys?

Gino: He's the sales guy, so I'll let him shoot.

Jake: Listen, if you can't find this, we're not doing our job very well, but it's really simple. Jakeandgino.com, ranpartnersllc.com if you're looking to invest or rancapllc.com if you're looking into the debt side of things

Gino: and please subscribe to the podcast. We have the number one multifamily podcast on iTunes called Wheelbarrow Profits. We have four shows now. I've actually launched the show with my wife called Multifamily Zone. We have the Movers and Shakers podcast, which highlights a student's success every week. And then we have the Rand Partners podcast on syndication. So we're doing shows, we like going out there as part of our fashion.

Jake: Hold on, Gino, there's more. We're going to give a teaser. So we had the best selling book, Wheelbarrow Profits on Amazon and we're phoning it up this year, right? We've got the honey bee coming out in October. We put a lot of work into this thing. It is a phenomenal book. And it tells a great story and this is not your traditional business book. Gino give a little bit more on that. What would you say about the honeybee?

Gino: It's a parable basically about a gentleman who's frustrated, is very similar to Jake's story. Going around, has a boss, hates his job, and then just stumbles upon an older man who's willing to mentor him and find out that, you know what, there's more to it. How do you have all this? The analogy of a river with little tributaries growing into a big Russian river and it's all about creating multiple streams of income, starting small and making the stakes, and then all of a sudden, five years later, you've created something really great. So we just wanted to translate our success and just have people open up to the idea of that you can start small but create those businesses and then from one little stream of revenue, you can end up having four and five like you do James. And like we do.

Jake: And I'll just leave with this because the one thing that I really picked up from Gino early on in our investing career was to get rid of limiting beliefs. I know it's like a big Tony Robbins thing as well, and people talk about this, but it's so impactful because you know, you'll sit there and say, Oh, I can't do that. Well, you're right, if that's the way you're going to think about it, you're right. I grew up in a super small town on a dirt road out in the middle of nowhere. And that's the truth. And you know, we've been able to grow this business to, you know, over a hundred million in assets and you know, created financial freedom and generational wealth for our families. So there was, you know, literally in the town that I grew up in, you could work at the school, there was a factory that made chairs and you know, my family was like, well, maybe you should be a cop...

Gino: Or a gym teacher.

Jake: You know, I literally went to school to be a gym teacher because I played sports and that's all I knew. So don't limit yourself because look, multifamily is not rocket science. It really isn't. Get educated. I always say education times action equals results. It's possible for anyone out there to do it, especially a pizza guy and a job rep were able to do it.

James: Yeah, I always tell people, if you think there's no deal out there, you are right. If you think there are deals out there, you're absolutely right too.

Gino: I love that.

James: It's that mindset that you have to get away from.

Jake: Listen, look at the deals for two or three weeks and then having them not pencil out, it can be very discouraging. Try two years. That's how long it took this guy and I to get into our first deal. So yeah, I always say, you know, the best thing we ever did, we were pesky. We hung in there. We kept driving.

James: Exactly. All right guys, thanks for joining this podcast. You guys added tons of value and we're happy to have you share.

Gino: Thanks James.

Jake: Thanks James.

James: Hi audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth True Value-add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Last week, we had Scott Hendricks who is a wealth manager and he covered a whole slew of topics ranging from 1031, being a broker-dealer, how someone can be a broker-dealer to raise money legally. He also covered DSTs - Delaware Statutory Trust and some of the items of Opportunity Zone. So it was a very, very interesting topic where I learned a lot and I'm sure if you go back and listen to that, it's going to be very, very educational as well. Today I have Yonah Weiss from a medicine spec. Yonah is a business director and a medicine specs. She is focused on a lot of things but primarily Yonah focuses on cost segregation and bonus depreciation, which gives us a huge tax benefit for a lot of commercial asset class investors. Hey, Yonah, welcome to the show.

Yonah: Thank you very much, James, for having me. It's a pleasure to be on your show. I love your show. It's one of the most, I'd say, one of the highest quality podcasts in the industry.

James: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I've been doing this for the past six to eight months and recently, I don't know it, it's a surprise to me as well that, you know, one of the I think radio public they selected this show as one of the top 24 shows for real estate investing in 2019 which is a very big surprise for me. So I'm happy that people are finding value in this podcast and I'm learning as well. So, Yonah, you have been in a lot of podcasts in many, many podcasts so I definitely want to cover cost segregation, bonus depreciation, but I want to go a lot deeper into a lot of other aspects of your personal growth and of the tax code itself. So hope you're ready for this.

Yonah: Let's do it.

James: Okay. Awesome. Awesome. So at a very high level, can you define depreciation?

Yonah: Depreciation, in fact, usually means something going down in value. But for our intents and purposes, because we're talking real estate here, it's actually just a borrowed term. It's a tax deduction. It's a tax write off based on the fact, on the principle, that things go down in value as time goes on. So the IRS gives you, as a property owner, a tax write off of the entire value of your property over a certain number of years and that write off is called depreciation.

James: Okay, got it. Got it. So it becomes much sweeter when the depreciation is just a paper loss, rather than actually losing the value of the building.

Yonah: Exactly, exactly. So it's different from, an appraisal standpoint, you know, an appraiser might look at the property and be like, it actually has a lesser value because it is this many years old. So that's the difference when we're just talking kind of theoretical.

James: Got it. So clarify me if I'm wrong. Only in the US, we get depreciation for a property that already been built and used for like 20-30 years. When someone buys it again, he gets a fresh depreciation start. Is that right? I mean, all other countries are like if you build new, they consider it getting old and it's depreciating. Is that true?

Yonah: Right. Yeah. I mean, I can't say for sure because I'm not really well versed in every other country's tax laws. But yeah, the US tax code is based on, even if it's a used property, you can actually take the tax write off, which is actually interesting because a lot of people don't know this. You can actually use depreciation on properties in other countries if you're a US taxpayer. So if you own, let's say, a large property in India or wherever and you're paying us taxes, you can actually take the depreciation deductions from that property on foreign soil. It's a very little known fact, but it has to go on a different schedule. It's called the ADS, the Alternative Depreciation Schedule, which is a little longer instead of 27 years, it's 40 years. But yeah, that is something unique as well.

James: Oh, I think that's probably a new fact for a lot of people because a lot of people have properties in other countries. So, do you know the details on how do you get the depreciation or you just have to work with a CPA and some tax consultant or how is that?

Yonah: Yeah, I mean like all of your depreciation, it should go on your schedule with listing the property and then it just has to be filed on a different schedule. Meaning it's like I said, it's called the alternative depreciation schedule instead of the regular, which is called the modified adjusted, the regular schedule and the macro schedule, which we go on for most things like 27 and a half years for a residential, 39 for commercial. So it's important to just note that and work with the CPA, who knows how to do that because yeah, you can get extra tax deductions.

James: And is this depreciation only for a brick and mortar assets? Is there any other assets? Like if I buy a goal, if I buy, I mean land, of course, there's no depreciation, right? There are only for buildings, which is a true brick and mortar. Is there any other investment vehicle that has depreciation other than real estate, which is the brick and mortar?

Yonah: Well, there are other types of properties like equipment and things like that that maybe commercial owners might have, which have depreciation deductions. It's different than the regular depreciation, which we discussed in real estate. It's under a different code. The 179 deductions, which you know, will apply to a lot of commercial equipment and stuff like that that you can use that deduction to write off business equipment and things like that. Or even if you know large, you know, software, you know, any type of business, an asset that you're buying is not necessarily property that can be deducted and depreciated.

James: Got it, got it. So, yeah, that's very interesting because depreciation is one of the most powerful word for real estate investing. I mean, compared to stocks and bonds and, you know, buying a goal. I mean real estate is something that, you know, this has been created by the tax code to say that....do you know why they do that? Is it because all the people in Congress invest in real estate that's why they kept depreciation as it is?

Yonah: That's my theory.

James: Thanks for being honest.

Yonah: It hasn't been corroborated, I haven't done any independent studies or anything like that, but yeah. You know, it makes sense to me. It sounds like even a little corrupt just like speaking about it, but you know, somebody would like to say, cause it adds to the economy, like real estate, the businesses, you're going to be adding jobs and housing and et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, at the end of the day, you know, keeping the rich richer is something that the government has an interest in.

James: So, yeah. I mean, this is one of the secrets that when I was working W2 and I didn't know about it and I didn't know how much, you know, it impacts your savings, your tax savings. Right? So it becomes a huge fact if you're able to depreciate to get some tax savings in and it's all on paper. There's no real stuff that's being depreciated. And real estate is a huge beneficiary of this depreciation, right?

Yonah: Exactly.

James: So what is the reason why land can't be depreciated?

Yonah: So I guess because land never really goes away. And land is kind of a constant status. So, you know, you buy a property and the property...see, it's interesting, this schedule that the IRS set up, that all stuff and we're going to talk about cost segregation, breaking those things down into different categories and different schedules. You know, each type of asset has a different lifespan. And there are so many different categories, right? So you have stuff that fits into a 39-year category, stuff that fits into a 27 and a half your category, you have 20 years, 15 years, you know, 10 years, seven-year and all of these different things. And there are lists, you know, in each one of these categories, the land is the one thing that's constant that you know, it's always going to have value regardless. And when you buy a property, even the tax assessor, the county assessors are going to understand that you're buying land and you're buying the improvements on that land. And the improvements can include, buildings, it can include landscaping, it can include the personal property that we're going to break down further with a cost SEG. But yeah, land is just one of those constants that don't change. You can't write that off.

James: Okay. Okay. I'm just thinking about whether... I mean maybe people don't like land. Maybe the people in Congress don't like land. That's why they say, okay, forget about land, let's go and do the building.

Yonah: Maybe it's also because I mean if you think about it, the fact that we're paying property tax on our land is really an admission to the fact that the County really owns the land. Meaning we're really just renting the land in a way. Even though you own a property and you own that and you have the title to that property, but how can the County like tax you on it? Because you know, at the end of the day it's still part of that County, right? It's still part of that governance. And so maybe that's why you don't actually get the tax write off for something that, you know, in all intents and purposes is only being kind of lease from you.

James: Got it. Makes sense. Usually, have, when I look at the County records and we land and implement improvements, the building is on top of the land, right? So usually - I don't know, I'm so well-well-versed with Texas, I'm not sure about other States - but usually, it's like 80 or 90% is the building and 10% to 20% is the land. Is that generic across all the States?

Yonah: I'd say it's pretty average. Like meaning the national average. However, there are places where the land is going to be valued at a much higher level. For example, California is crazy. I mean the land values in California, I've seen up to 60% like literally, which is crazy. So obviously, the more the land value is, the less the improvements made, the less you can actually depreciate if you're basing that ratio. So yeah, so in certain cities like New York City also, like sometimes the land value is going to be higher, just because like that land is worth a lot more.

James: Oh, it's worth a lot more and you can't depreciate, which is the absolute reason why everybody should invest in Texas and Florida at mid-city, not in the coastal side of it because the land is more expensive and they don't really give any depreciation schedule. That's a really good point. I never really thought about that. So yeah, that's another reason why, you know, people should be investing in places where the land is more expensive. I mean it's like 50% right off the hole. Okay. Interesting. So coming back to, you know, can you define how does depreciation gives a tax benefit for an investor in real estate?

Yonah: So again, depreciation is a write off, right? Income tax, write off. Income tax write off means if you make $100,000, normally you're going to be taxed on that $100,000. If your tax rate is, you know, 39%, you've got to pay $39,000 to the government. Depreciation is the deduction so also, you know, if you have kids, there are all sorts of deductions that you can take. But depreciation is just a deduction right off the top. So let's say your depreciation deduction from your property is $50,000. So guess what? That's you just cut your income tax liability in half. So now you're only going to have to pay taxes on the 50,000 because 50,000 was your deduction. If you took that off your income tax liability, you're left with 50,000 to pay tax on, you're going to only have to pay 19 and a half instead of 39.

James: Got it. So I mean, for the audience who's listening, I mean, in real estate you know, I mean in general, in investment real estate, there are two worlds; one is the investment world and the other one's the tax world. So whatever we are talking right now is what happens in the tax world, right? In the investment world, of course, you get the cash flow and you're going to spend it, right? It's like normal. You're not losing money, right? Whereas the tax world, the IRS tax code is meant to incentivize a lot of real estate investors. So they do this virtual depreciation, which is basically you're not really losing money, but they're saying you're losing money on paper and they say you are basically not paying taxes for that income.

Yonah: Right, right. Which is crazy. In my opinion, this is probably one of the craziest rules in the tax code. To trump that - not to use any puns or anything like that - To trump that rule is the real estate professional status. Which is crazy. I mean, these rules are just, they're made for the wealthy.

James: The ones who invest in real estate, I would say. Right. So let's go back to a lot more details into this depreciation, which is getting a write off on a yearly basis. And so, whatever cash flow we get, let's say your depreciation's more than cash flow, you're basically not paying taxes on it.

Yonah: Exactly. Exactly. And that's really going to be the goal. And that's one of the things that cost segregation, right? And the bonus depreciation especially can help to accomplish that. Whatever cashflow that you have, whatever income that you're making, it's, hopefully, going to be tax-free income.

James: So however, I mean on every year you're taking depreciation but when you sell, you're still doing a depreciation recapture. So can you explain to me how this whole, whatever you took in the past, let's say five years, you're recapturing it back on a sale? Was the whole benefit was just pushed to the sale or what happened?

Yonah: All right, so a few things happen when you sell property. Number one thing happens, there's capital gains tax, which means if you made a profit on that sale, right? You bought it for a hundred, sold it for 200 you got a gain. You have to pay tax on that gain. There's also something called depreciation recapture tax. Okay. And again, this is tax, it's not recapturing and you're not paying back, you're just being taxed on the amount of depreciation that you took over the course of ownership. So there are different rates at which that depreciation recapture is taxed at. One rate is commonly capped at 25%. That's like at the capital gains rate, which is for real property, which is for the real estate. However, there is another rate which is going to be taxed at ordinary income rates, which is on a personal property, which is stuff that we're taking with the cost of depreciation but a lot of people don't think about and it's actually taxed at a higher rate and you're taking it more upfront. What ended up happening is, just to break it down very simply, we're taking huge deductions in their early years of ownership so that we're basically tax-free. Yes, that does mean that when it comes time to sell, we're going to get hit with tax on the backend. But in the interim, in that meantime, from the time you bought it until the time you sold it, hopefully, all of that money you're keeping cash-free and assume it's tax-free, that cash is now worth a lot more. This is called the time value of money. It's worth a lot more because you can now use it, you can reinvest it, you can make more compound interest on that money then having to pay it later on. Also, it's your money. So there's this kind of misconception - I'm just going to digress here for a second. I'll come back to the depreciation recapture tax.

There's a misconception that you have to pay taxes. And I think this comes to us from being in the corporate world where we get our paycheck and taxes are automatically deducted as if it's not our money. So real estate is a way that we're making money, all that cash flow, but we're not taking off the top to give to Uncle Sam. We're keeping as much as we can because it's your money. It's not money you have to pay tax on. You only have to pay tax when you have that tax liability. When you have to pay. But if you have more deductions then it's your money to keep. Yes. So part of the real strategy, real estate is kind of differing, pushing off to a later date.

And one of the reasons why that is is because there are other strategies down the road that can help to negate that taxes as well. So it's better to pay fewer taxes now and deal with it later because later on, you may have other strategies on sale that you wouldn't have had now upfront. And one of those things is a 1031 exchange, which you can now defer capital gains tax and you can differ the depreciation recapture tax also. There's another strategy that is less known but probably more powerful than a 1031 exchange. And this is called the partial asset disposition, which allows you to claim a lesser value on property that you dispose of because it has less value than it did when you bought it. Okay. Which means like this, if I bought a property for...and it comes in specifically with personal property. So your furniture; let's say you buy this table, this desk I'm sitting at, it costs $10,000. Now, I bought it for $10,000 in five years from now if I'm depreciating it, on a five-year schedule and with cost segregation, then really this has zero tax value. It's no longer, on paper, it's no longer worth anything, right, James?

James: Yep, absolutely.

Yonah: When I sell this table with this desk, I can actually write on a tax form that I am disposing of this personal property. It no longer has value to me. Maybe it has $100, something minimal, just nominal. Now I only pay the depreciation recapture tax on what's left on the remaining $100 value. So again, this only can happen when you're selling a property. This is only something or you're disposing of it. If you also renovate it, you can write that off also. But this only happens....understand that this is a strategy that we can only take later on.

James: Oh, okay. So what you're saying is even though you have depreciated 100% on top of like taking like 25% of that 100% at sale, now instead of paying 25% recapture, maybe the recapture amount as much lower because some of the things you can say, Hey, this is completely useless right now.

Yonah: Even though it's not. But from a tax perspective, it is because you've depreciated it. It's already been used now. So that means even on the depreciation recapture tax at a later date can actually be pushed off. I'll mention another great strategy, which is if you're a real estate professional and now you can use your depreciation or your losses to offset your active income as well. Once you've offset that active income, you can now use that to offset other taxes like capital gains tax or depreciation recapture tax. So for goodness sakes, if you have huge losses from this property and then you go and sell the property, guess what? You may actually be able to negate all of the tax that would have come from the losses themselves.

James: Absolutely. I mean that's what we do, right? So as an elected professional, right. And that's what most of the people who are doing a large real estate transaction, including a lot of people in Congress, is doing. It's all meant to reduce their taxes or pay no taxes or defer it for later on time. But I want to understand one thing, I want to understand one thing. So at a sale, from what I know, you have to do a 25% recapture. But you say that 25% recapture that's also another part of the recapture, which is at a different rate level. Can you explain what is the 25% recapture and what is the other part and how do you split within these two?

Yonah: Yeah, without getting too complicated, because there are actually different, there's like sliding scales and there are different rates involved. But generally speaking, there's what's called the unrealized gain, the depreciation recapture on the property itself, which you haven't appreciated and so that's on a 25%. And then you have personal property, which is on the ordinary income rate.

James: Okay. And when you talk about personal property, can you give some examples of what does that personal property...like say for an apartment, in a multifamily building.

Yonah: Right. So, again, if you're doing cost segregation, basically anything that you're segregating out you know, most of that stuff falls into the personal property category. So, you know, cabinets, carpeting, fixtures, appliances, all that stuff.

James: Oh, got it. Got it. So, okay, we're going to go to cost segregation, then hopefully, it will be more clear. So all these times we only talk about depreciation, which is fundamental things in the whole tax incentive for real estate, right? So now, comes what you call the B grade, I guess. Right? And earlier we were like at a C grade, now we're at the B grade and we're going to go to the A-grade, which is bonus depreciation. Let's talk about B grade. What is cost segregation and how does it fall on top of depreciation?

Yonah: Oh yeah. It's not really on top of, what it's doing is separating out the property into these different lives. So if we go back to our original example, the depreciation you're getting, you're able to write off the entire value of the building over a 27 and a half year span for apartments. For other commercials, it's on a 39-year schedule. That means you buy a property for $1 million, you can now write off, subtract some for land, 10%, 20% for land, and then the remaining $800-900,000, you can now write off as a tax, write off a paper loss a little bit every single year.

Cost segregation allows, according to the tax code, you can have an engineer come to the property and actually allocate every tiny detail of that property into different categories which depreciate on faster scales, on faster rates. So you have stuff that depreciates on a five-year schedule, as I mentioned, all that personal property, furniture, fixtures, appliances, carpet and cabinets, all that stuff; if you put on a five year schedule, that means that you can literally take and write that entire value off, take as a tax deduction in those first five years instead of lumping it all together. With the entire million dollars, you're going to take 20%, let's say $200,000 and now, take that as a write off in the first five years.

James: Got it. Got it. So just to give some education for the audience. So depreciation on real estate, especially on residential real estate is usually it goes across 27.5 years. And then what you're saying, cost segregation, they say, Oh, not everything in this building is 27.5 now we have windows, we have appliances, we have carpet, which we want to depreciate, for example, in five years. Then that's driveway where they say, Oh, it's seven-year depreciation. And then I can't remember what's the 15 years, can you give me some examples?

Yonah: Right. 15 years is going to be anything that's considered land improvements. And land improvements includes landscaping, asphalt, parking lots, anything outside of the property that's not considered land, but like fencing, if you have a swimming pool, all that stuff, the concrete, all of that is on a 15-year schedule.

James: Got it. So they split it into five, seven, 15 and they start depreciating. So very interesting. So does it matter whether you are doing this cost segregation on a major rehab project; with this project, there's no rehab? Yonah: You can definitely get more benefits when you're doing a rehab. Because when you are adding any money to the property, that money being added in the capital expenditures, it's going to be added to that basis. Meaning added to the books and now going to depreciate that amount of money as well because that's going into the property. So, again, if you bought this building for $1 million and then you went and added another $500,000 in renovations, that $500,000 now gets depreciated as well. So you can cost segregate that as well and break that up into the different components.

James: Oh, interesting. I didn't know that. I mean we do a lot of rehab projects and I just never understood whether we should do more rehab will be better. But what do you think just increases the value and you get a bigger depreciation compared to...

Yonah: And not only that, we're not going to get ahead of ourselves cause now we're not at the A level yet, we're going to come back to that. You can do the bonus depreciation on the rehab as well.

James: Got it. Got it. So very interesting. So does it matter if I buy a small 50 units and depreciate versus buying 300 units and depreciate for any investors in these deals?

Yonah: You know, what do you mean 'does it matter'?

James: Well, I mean whether you get more benefit out of it or not. I mean, let's say, you invest 100,000 into this deal, does it matter if I invest 100,000 into small 50 units versus putting 100,000 and do 300 units?

Yonah: It's going to be pretty much within the same scale because multifamily properties in general if they're the same type of style, the percentages are going to be pretty similar within a window. So anywhere between, I'd say, 20 to 35% is going to be your general cost segregation, the reallocation of the assets, the faster lives. So you know, there are going to be, each property is going to be different, but generally speaking, it's going to be pretty similar.

James: Okay. So it's basically based on percentage and the scale.

Yonah: Right.

James: Okay. I never understood that.

Yonah: So if it was a million-dollar property and you're putting $100,000, you have 10%. If it's a $10 million property, you put 100,000, your percentage of ownership is going to be a lot less.

James: Correct. Correct. Yeah. Because I have some investors who say, I only invest in 300 plus unit and I never understand why. So, because sometimes, I mean, a lot of times on a smaller property makes a lot more money. And sometimes they just want to do the bigger one. So I always think that there must be some kind of tax benefit that they're doing it. But at the end of the day it's just a percentage of whatever equity that you are getting.

Yonah: Correct.

James: Got it. Got it. So is there any tips and tricks for multifamily investors or any value add investors when they're rehabbing their project? For example, I met someone the other day where they say you are able to write off the address plate of a unit. Like, say unit one or two. If that address plate is on a metal, they say that you can write it off as part of tax depreciation. Whereas if you go and you know, put a sticker or coughed out the number, you're not able to, that was a huge thing for me. Is that true? I mean, do you get some kind of benefit when you do that?

Yonah: I mean that is true. Again, that's part of the five-year assets that engineers could come and recognize what that is. And there are tons of things like that. You know, whether it's going to be what type of flooring you're putting in.

James: Okay, let's go into that flooring. What flooring will give you the biggest bonus?

Yonah: Alright. So carpeting is five-year property. Vinyl flooring is a five-year property. But if you're going to do real tiles, for example, that's considered actually part of the structure so it's going to one of the 27 and a half year component.

James: So doing carpet and vinyl would be beneficial than in tiles in cost segregation/depreciation (?)

Yonah: Much more. Yeah. Cause that's actually one of the high-value components if you think about it in each unit. Like, think about how much you spend on flooring.

James: Yeah, absolutely. Flooring is one of the biggest expenses, especially on a major rehab. So that's a really good benefit that I never really thought of because I do have properties with tiles and I would think about converting it. And, of course, we don't do it for the sake of getting depreciation but it's just a bonus, I guess. What else is there that comes out to you that you think, Hey, to get these small benefits of depreciation, you guys should look at that. What else is in a value-add rehab?

Yonah: Mmm..

James: What about appliances? White versus black appliances, does it matter versus stainless steel?

Yonah: Always go with the black.

James: It looks better, depreciates more. No, I'm just joking.

Yonah: Yeah. I would say just be studious. Be careful with what you're spending. Make sure that, you want to consult a tax advisor who is savvy in this area because you may be leaving a lot of money on the table. You may be leaving huge tax deductions that you may be able to get. And one of the great things about depreciation is that again, we're taking the right off of the entire value of the property, even if you didn't even spend that from your own pocket. Meaning you took that on a loan, you took leverage to buy that property. The bank's money you get the tax write off for,

James: Oh, that's awesome.

Yonah: You think about it, you buy a million dollar property, you put down, maybe 200-250 your own money, but you're getting a tax write off of $1 million, which is crazy. So too with the construction, with the renovations, you may get 100% financing for those construction costs and you can write the entire thing off as a tax write off.

James: Got it. Got it. That's very interesting. So let me ask you one more thing though. If I have a choice, for example, a roof, it's part of the structure, right? So if I have a choice to ask the seller to replace the roof before we close on the deal or should I do it after we close on the deal? Does it make a difference in terms of who gets the depreciation?

Yonah: I mean, obviously, not from a depreciation standpoint per se because either way, you're going to get the deduction because if you buy the property, you're buying the roof as well as part of the property. If you then go and spend your money, then it's money that you're spending from your own money or from the bank's money, whatever, and then you're going to depreciate that as well. So the roof happens to be part of a structural component, which is not gonna be eligible for bonus depreciation or you know, cost segregation, it's just going to be part of the main structure of the building, which depreciates at a later time. So it's not necessarily something that's going to get more more benefit per se.

James: Unless the roof is increasing your price at closing. I guess, right?

Yonah: Obviously, right. And if you have you deferred maintenance on that end that you can benefit from.

James: Got it. Got it. Very interesting. A lot of strategies that we can do when we're doing a value-add project. Which I think is important to understand because some things can make a lot of difference in terms of your tax benefit. So I want to go a bit more detailed into the five, seven and 15 years, right? So because of this, let's say you're depreciating a lot of the five years, a depreciation on max later schedule, right? And let's say you keep this property for two years, right? After two years you decided, okay, I'm going to sell it off versus keeping it more than around five years, right? So what's the benefit? What's the threshold of benefits of that depreciation versus depreciation recapture that you are getting on how long you hold the property?

Yonah: Again, the threshold when you're going to look at property to property on an individual basis you really have to kind of look at it in a bubble and it's difficult to do. I mean, you may want to do that because the investors are involved, et cetera, in that regard. But even before I answer that, I like to just kind of take a step back and realize that the real benefit of real estate is when you're going to be constantly buying more, right? Because whatever's going to happen to this property, the taxes in this one can potentially be deferred and be pushed off with the next property I buy. And so, that's a viable strategy. Again, we also have to take a step forward and look at each property on an individual level as if like, this is the only property I'm ever going to buy.

And so if that being said, if it's the only property you're only gonna buy, so you have to see, is this going to benefit me? If I hold this for two years, I'm going to take this depreciation upfront and therefore I'm going to get the tax free cash flow in the first two years. And then when I sell, I'm going to have higher taxes to pay then. So again, that calculation is going to obviously going to come up at that point. I would say that you should really take that into consideration. You know, if you're going to have two years old versus a three-year-old, or a five-year-old again, the cash flow is the main key to this puzzle. And then, if you are refinancing, which is another possibility, then that money coming from the refinance is also tax-free. It's not a taxable event, which means that that money that's coming back to your investors, which you may decide to pay out proceeds from the refinance to the investors, will actually increase their returns as well. So it's all part of like a bigger calculation.

James: Okay. Awesome. So let's go to number A, the king of depreciation now, which was because of the introduction of the tax act 2017. The introduced bonus depreciation for used property. So usually bonus depreciation is only built for new properties, right? So can you explain how that was born and what's the motivation behind it and how does it work to become A grade depreciation?

Yonah: Yeah, so bonus depreciation, 100% bonus depreciation I should say, you know, came about on used property. That means that it used to be only if you built a new building. You did new construction, you were able to take a tax write off of the depreciation of anything that depreciates under a 20-year schedule. So again, that goes back to all this stuff. We're going to segregate, the cost segregation, the 15-year land improvements, the five-year assets, which are all personal property, et cetera. All of that stuff can now be eligible for bonus depreciation. Now, when you're doing a new build, it used to be only 50% of that. I mean, you could take a 50% in the first year, you could take a deduction of that depreciation.

Then came the new tax code and said not only to 50, we're going to move it to 100%, which means you can take 100% of all of that depreciation and write it off in the first year. Okay. And used property, meaning even if it's an old property, you're buying it for the first time. So this is really going to take depreciation to a whole new level. It's going to take the first year, you know, instead of like on that million-dollar property, instead of a $30,000 tax write off for regular depreciation. And then you're gonna move it up with regular cost segregation, maybe to 60 or 70,000, comes bonus depreciation and potentially you're going to get like a $200-250,000 write off.

James: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And what's the motivation of the government passing this tax law? If you know.

Yonah: I didn't come here to discuss politics.

James: Okay. We have to get away from that. So there must be some reason.

Yonah: I think it has to do with the stimulation of the economy, right? The more tax write-offs, the more money can go back into investing, creating jobs, create more housing, et cetera, et cetera.

James: But it's limited until 2023 if I'm not mistaken. And after that from 100% becomes, I can't remember, 50%?

Yonah: It goes to 80% and starts phasing out every year until it's gone.

James: Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, I mean it's surprising for me because I did a lot of bonus depreciation for most of my properties. I think all of it is last year and everybody like almost like right off their capital. And when they looked at their K1 and everybody was surprised that, I mean a lot of people understood what it is, but there were a lot of new people who are asking me, what happened to my money? Did you disappear? Absolutely. Everybody was asking for it because a lot of them got like almost 90 to 100% write off. And I had to explain to them about the bonus depreciation and all that. So yeah, I'm going to be doing a webinar soon, I think, in the next few weeks.

I'm not sure when is this episode going to be aired. Probably we'll pass the webinar, but if any of you are interested in getting that webinar link to register, cause I'm going to get a CPA to translate all this bonus depreciation into how passive investors will get the benefit out of it because there's a lot of ethicalities when it comes to tax codes. And I want to get a CPA who specializes in real estate professionals and how does this whole thing benefits everybody in investing in real estate, including passive investors who are not real estate professionals. Cause a lot of times real estate professionals, well understood, but people didn't want to know how does passive investors get the benefit out of real estate investing. All of that will be in the webinar, it's going to be a very interesting webinar. So can you tell our audience how to get all of you?

Yonah: The best way to find me is actually LinkedIn. That's my home base. That's where I hang out and spend most of my time. But seriously, you can reach me, my email is a great way to contact me, [email protected]. So SPECS is actually an acronym for specialized property engineering cost segregation. So that's our firm. And yeah, especially if you have a property you're looking at and you want to see what the potential benefits would be, we do an upfront analysis so you can just kind of see what those numbers, the potential tax benefits would be. Whether you're under a contract with a property that bought a property, owned property for years, you can see that. So yeah, happy to do that and please connect with me on LinkedIn.

James: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And before I let you go, when is the best time for someone to engage cost segregation firm? Is it before they go under contract? When they're looking at a deal after they close on the deal?

Yonah: Usually you know, after they close is the best, I mean to engage, obviously you can reach out to me for that estimate. Even when you're under contract, it's probably the best time, but you know, you're wanting to get it done if you need it in the first year, which not everyone needs it in the first year. You may buy a property that's totally not profitable, you have no income. You don't need this. But yeah, if you want to get it done in the first year, the sooner the better. Because again, you need this for your tax filing and especially if you have investors, you can just send out K1, you need to get that out earlier on the year. The sooner the better, you can get it done.

James: Oh, interesting. I usually start the first year itself, but what you're saying is when you need the depreciation, I guess. So, yeah, absolutely. Awesome. Yonah, very nice to have you on our show and I learned a lot and I'm sure our audience learned a lot. We go so much into the detail of, you know, one of the biggest benefit of investing real estate on top of the cash flow that you get. So the depreciation and the cost seg, and now the A-class depreciation of bonus depreciation. Absolutely. Thank you very much.

Yonah: Thank you, James. It was my pleasure and we will see you soon.

James: Absolutely. Thank you.

James: Hi audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth True Value and Real Estate Investing Podcast. I'm excited to let you guys know that last week we had Mark Kenny from King Multifamily and we discussed a lot of interesting stuff about some of the different markets that he's been buying. They have been buying like in five different markets. Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia, Texas, and Florida. And it's very interesting to see, apart from Texas and Florida, which are, you know, more popular markets and how do they underwrite deals in Alabama and how they underwrite deals in Tennessee, you know. So it's a very interesting episode, I would encourage you guys to listen to that as well.

This week we have Scott Hendricks from Current Investment LLC. Scott is a wealth manager and we're going to be covering different topics such as a DST or Delaware Statutory Trust, which is another alternative for 1031 exchange. You're going to be talking some things about 1031 exchange. And we're also going to be talking about qualified opportunity zones investments and some of the broker-dealer licensing such as series seven licensing, which is really important for people who want to raise money using broker-dealer license. Hey Scott, welcome to the show.

Scott: Hi James. Thank you very much.

James: Awesome. Awesome. So did I miss out anything? Do you want to fill in the introduction with anything else that I missed out about yourself?

Scott: No, I, I appreciate that. I have been an Austin based wealth manager, financial advisor for about eight years now. I have a series seven, which is the general securities license and I have a series 66, which is called a combined uniform state license. I also am licensed with my clients in California and Arizona and Wyoming in addition to Texas. And I am affiliated with a broker-dealer firm known as Kelton and Associates. They're based in Tampa, Florida. But my business current investments are based right here in Austin.

James: Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. I really want to quickly get into the series seven being a broker-dealer because there's a lot of capital out there. There are very, very few deals nowadays. And what's happening is a lot of people trying to raise money, you know trying to be a money raiser, but there's a lot of advice that's coming from the SEC attorneys that, you know, you have to do it the right way. And there's a lot of discussion about why not I become a broker-dealer? So can you define what is a broker-dealer, which is basically a licensed person who's allowed to legally raise money? What is a broker-dealer?

Scott: Sure. So a broker-dealer in my case is basically the...I think of it as kind of my back office. The back office that supports registered representatives like me with performing my transactions for my clients, maintaining regulatory oversight and supervision of my activities, ensuring that I receive ongoing training. They handle the registrations with the government entities that oversee all securities business in this country. And you're correct, there are a wide range of licenses that govern various aspects of all of this activity. They are now regulated by an organization known by its acronym, FINRA, which is simply the financial industry, regulatory authority and finra.org is the website where anyone who would be interested in learning about these licenses or possibly even obtaining one of these licenses could go and look at the menu of the different licenses that FINRA overseas. Some of which are for broker-dealers, some of which are for general securities representatives like myself, some of which govern the transacting in your liquid securities and private placements, which are often the kinds of opportunities that I believe you're describing where it is necessary to raise funds.

I don't remember the specific numbers of all of those licenses. There are about two dozen types of licenses that FINRA supervises. And I would encourage your audience if they were interested to learn more about that to go to FINRA, finra.org.

James: Got it. So how difficult is it to get a series seven license? I mean how long does it take? How difficult is the exam? What do you need to be good at kind of thing? Can you explain?

Scott: Well, you know, interestingly I got my license eight years ago. I know some things have changed as far as the cost. The costs have gone up a little bit. They're still reasonable. Most of these licenses can be obtained for a few hundred dollars, a filing fee, purchasing the study materials, scheduling the exam. I would say the process takes anywhere from three to six months. There are no prerequisites so you do not have to have a finance degree from college, you don't have to work in the financial industry. You can simply if you purchase the application for the license, study the material, take the test and pass the test, you'll obtain one of these licenses.

James: So do you need to know a lot of financial terms? Is there a lot of math? Is that calculus involved?

Scott: I wouldn't have passed if there was very much calculus. No, there's no need to know a lot of math. It certainly helps to be familiar with, I would say intermediate financial concepts. Certainly, basic concepts like, you know, interest compounding, time of the value of money cost basis, rates of return; fundamental financial concepts that anyone who wishes to invest or is already an investor should be familiar with. But there's no set list of previous academic or experience requirements that one must have before taking one of these FINRA exams.

James: Got it. So basically the cost is less than a thousand dollars. You say $300 eight years ago.

Scott: Again, I'm a little out of date, but I would say yes, you can still apply for any of these federal licenses for less than I would even say, you know, three to $500.

James: Got it. Got it. And so you say three to six months you go to the exam, it's not that difficult, you need to know basic financial concepts, which I think is important. You're going to be advising people about their money and what's the rate of return.

Scott: It's a designed course of study to maintain the credibility of the industry, the level of professionalism and the basic knowledge base that the regulatory bodies in this country want professionals to maintain for the benefit of their clients.

James: So when you are taking a series seven and becoming a broker-dealer, why would one person want to be a broker-dealer?

Scott: If you want to oversee agents, if you want to essentially work with a group of agents, representatives, who will assist you in putting together investment opportunities and seeking investors, seeking clients, raising funds a broker deal or license, which I'm going to go out on a limb and say a broker-dealer license is probably more difficult to obtain, a little bit higher barrier because of that nature. That a broker-dealer is more of an office in charge of a number of representatives who then go into the field and work directly with clients.

James: So are you saying broker-dealer has someone under them who works with the clients?

Scott: They could. There's no reason why a broker-dealer could also not be an individual as well. But it is a different level of licensing required to have broker-dealer credentials than it is to have securities representative or securities agent credentials as I do.

James: Oh, got it. Got it. So series seven will get you into the securities agent level and there's another level where you're to become a broker-dealer, I guess.

Scott: That's reasonably accurate. Yes. So series seven, again, a series seven is called general securities license that enables me, authorizes me to transact in marketable securities for individual clients or businesses. So I am authorized to recommend and Franz deck that is initiate the buying and selling of stocks, bonds, mutual funds, exchange-traded funds, registered private placements and in that last case to accredited investors. So it opens up a range of investment transactions that I am authorized to both recommend to clients and then assist them in transacting in those assets. A broker-dealer could essentially be in a position to put together deals, to put together or review outside deals that then they would approve an authorized to their representatives to go out and seek investors, recommend them to investors

James: Got it. Great. I think the structure is similar to like in real estate agent versus broker, either the broker has somebody working for them.

Scott: I wish I thought of that. That's a great analogy. I think that's very comparable. Yes.

James: Got it. Got it. Very interesting. So I didn't even know that; I thought broker-dealer is a person, I mean, can be a person, but it's usually like a company where a lot of agents work for them and these agents get the series seven licensing. Okay. Got it. Got it. So I presume if you want to do fundraising for your lifetime, then you want to get a series seven licensing and be part of a broker-dealer.

Scott: You know, I would advise anyone interested in being licensed in the securities industry to get a series seven. The series seven is almost the gateway licensed to a range of other licenses. Some of these other licenses do require that the individual have a series seven as a prerequisite. And as I mentioned earlier, there are licenses that are specific to illiquid private placement types of investments. So if I was interested only in raising money for let's say for startups or for venture funds or for passive real estate portfolios or deals, I would encourage that person to go get the series seven but then also look for one of the more specific licenses that delve more deeply into the specialized knowledge required for those kinds of specialized investments tailored to the accredited investor.

James: Oh, got it. So series seven is just basic and then there's a lot more specific to the niche, I guess.

Scott: Yes. Now, the series seven enables me to do both, but the accredited investor deals that I am able to recommend to clients must first be approved by my broker-dealer.

James: Okay, got it. Got it.

Scott: If I had one of these more specialized licenses, I might be able to go out and self approve or do my own independent due diligence and then recommend a particular investment to an accredited investor.

James: Got it.

Scott: As such, right now I need to go to my broker-dealer and say, Hey, here's a good deal. It looks like it would be right for one or several of my clients. And then asked my broker-dealer to scrub it, do their due diligence and then if they approve it, I would be authorized to go raise funds for it.

James: Got it. Got it. So if one of our audience who wants to raise money for commercial real estate, you know, as syndication or multifamily, so they can get a series seven license and go and work for a broker-dealer. And in that while they work, they can propose to raise money on specific multifamily or any other commercials syndication, I guess to the broker-dealer and the broker-dealer needs to approve that, then he can go and raise money for that part of their syndication. Okay. Got it.

And I mean, if it's not confidential, do we know how do these agents get compensated in terms of percentage? What is that range if it's not confidential?

Scott: No, it's not really confidential. In my case, it's not confidential. In fact, it all has to be completely transparent and disclosed to the investor. So, for example, on a non traded REIT, if I was to recommend a real estate investment trust to a client that had previously been approved by my broker-dealer, I would earn a commission. In most cases where the investment is illiquid, I'm not gonna put that into a fee-based account. It's a standalone transaction that might complement that particular investor's portfolio. If they agree, I would disclose my commission and my commission generally runs between about four to 6% on the deal. Again, it's very comparable to what a real estate agent might earn on the sale of a property. But I'll disclose my commission, if the investor wishes to proceed, then I'll help them invest and I'll earn a commission on that transaction.

James: So four to 6% of the money being invested, is that right?

Scott: Correct.

James: Got it. Got it.

Scott: You know, four to 6% of the investor's contribution I would earn as a commission, a percentage of that, I would share with my broker-dealer, my back office. The way we think about it with these securitized real estate deals is if you invest $100, you know, $94 of your investment goes into the ground.

James: Got it. Yeah, I understand.

Scott: You know, approximately a 6% sort of transactional cost.

Speaker: Got it. And do you get paid in the beginning or do you get at the end or during the transaction or how does that..?

Scott: It really varies depending on how the deal is structured. It really varies. In many cases, my commission will be earned upfront, but there are certain deals where, where my commission may be considerably less upfront but I'll get an annual payout over the life of the time that the investor holds that deal. It really just depends from a deal to deal.

James: And it's a one time commission. Right? That's it. Right?

Scott: In most cases.

James: Yeah. So I think what some people are doing is basically they're getting a GP percentage, which can be a lifetime, I mean, of that investment. But this is slightly different. Did you get a commission flat fee of 4-6% in the beginning? I mean, not at the beginning, in most cases.

Scott: Right. Yeah. Most of my business James is fee-based portfolio management. So I may work with a client who has a portfolio of stocks and bonds and I'll earn a percentage of that account value over the time that I manage it on behalf of my client. It's in these cases of the one time a private placement transaction like a REIT or a Delaware statutory trust, where I'll simply earn a one-time commission. And then the investor will then own a passive property, a passive asset that will generate passive income for that client. But if they also have hired me so to speak or work with me to manage their other portfolio, that may be on more of a percentage-based or a fee-based relationship.

James: Got it. Got it. So is it public information on which agent or which broker-dealer is doing better than others like the stock market, in terms of performing for their clients or is it all private?

Scott: You know, that's one of those questions that can always only be answered with the words 'It depends.' It's really difficult when you come down to investing for individuals and let's say for business owner clients to compare performance. Because each and every investor has so many different goals and different risk tolerances and different timelines that it makes it very difficult. It really is apples and oranges to compare the performance of an entire book of business; either held by an advisor like me or overseen by a broker-dealer. It almost makes no sense to try to compare rates of return or performance simply because each and every investor has a unique objective.

James: Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree. I mean, that's a really good comment. I mean, returns are one thing, right? But risk profile off the investors and you know, how risky is the deal itself is another factor. And everybody has their own taste or flavor that they want to take on when they want to invest. So, awesome. Awesome. And why does an equity investor want to come to a broker-dealer versus going to a private syndication model and invest privately?

Scott: I think a lot of it has to do with the extra risk that you are mitigating by looking for investments that have already been registered with the securities and exchange commission and have been scrubbed; that is, have been researched thoroughly by a professional organization. And you know, there are certain things like just the credibility of the track record of successful deals that it has offered to clients that have exited; all the kinds of things you might look into with a private syndication deal. But for some investors that extra assurance of knowing that it has met the registration requirements of the securities and exchange commission and has been scrubbed and approved by a registered and licensed broker-dealer.

James: Got it. Got it.

Scott: That basically, that does that for a living. That does it, you know, hundreds of times a year looks at deal, memoranda and all of the documentation that goes into assuring investors that the deal is sound. And while you can never completely eliminate risk in any deal, I think that there's a certain risk premium that is reduced with registered and professionally researched opportunities.

James: Got it. Got it. Got it. Although I think I want to just clarify one thing. So usually the investor's equity is paid out of their equity, right? I mean the broker-dealer or the agent fees in this model are paid out of the equity. Whereas in the syndication model, a lot of times people who you know will become part of the GPS as one of the functions to raise money. They get the money from the GP, not from the passive investor. So that's one big distinction, right, because...

Scott: It is, that's correct. That's correct.

James: It makes a difference as well. So, in terms of the profile of customers who come and look for broker-dealers and agents who work with broker-dealers, I mean, is it like a lot of family offices, a lot of institutions, or is it a lot of private equity investors? How would you say in terms of percentage?

Scott: I think the answer is yes. And again, every wealth manager's business is different. In my case, I primarily work in the area of regulation D filed, liquid or a passive real estate and other types of deals. I generally am working with high net worth individuals.

James: Okay.

Scott: High net worth investors who are accredited and are simply looking to add or complement their existing portfolio with passive income through real estate, through business development companies. I also transact in oil and gas, master limited partnerships. So it's the investor in my case who is looking to diversify our portfolio and derive passive income at a rate that is more favorable than they would get in the bond market these days or certainly more favorable than they would get in something like a bank insurance CD or savings account. And perhaps doesn't have the inclination or the experienced to go in and evaluate real estate from private syndication that others might feel that they do have. So I'm able to offer for the less experienced real estate investor, the kinds of opportunities to derive passive income without the expertise that it might take to evaluate a syndication deal.

James: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Makes sense. Yeah. The professionalism, of course, makes a lot of difference compared to someone you know, coming on from a weekend boot camp. So very interesting. So, yeah, I mean that's really good.

Scott: There are always different paths.

James: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so coming back to 1031 and DSTs - Delaware statutory trust. So 1031 is, you know, a lot of people know what 1031; where it's basically an exchange mechanism within real estate to a much larger real estate offer, same kind where someone has to identify like three deals within 45 days of closing of the current deal. And they can defer the capital gain and they can defer the depreciation recapture back to the new deal which they should close within six months. Am I right? Did I miss out some?

Scott: You know, that's pretty good. Everything you said is correct. I would simply add, and the way I like to describe it, a 1031 transaction is it's taking advantage of a section of the tax code and that's all 1031 is. It's simply a section of the internal revenue code that allows a real estate investor to sell a property or multiple properties and exchange the proceeds into other real estate, either a single property or multiple properties that can be either active or passively owned and differ all taxes that might be paid as a result of be the capital gains, depreciation recapture. There are a few other taxes that may come into play. For example, if you're in a state that has a state capital gains tax like California, that can also be deferred under the federal a tax code section 1031. But you're correct about the timelines there.

There are pretty strict timelines that must be met in a 1031. And I often tell groups of real estate agents and investors that 1031 is widely known. A lot of people know about it, but it still kind of has some stigma or some intimidation factor about it that prevents it from being widely used. And so part of what I try to do is help my clients and others understand the 1031 process. The primary thing they're going to gain is what they might have otherwise paid in taxes, they can keep inequity and reinvest into other real estates. You mentioned that in many cases an investor will trade up with the 1031, going into the larger holding in real estate. I also see a lot of clients who spread out their investment and diversify into other classes o rfeal estate or into other geographic areas that they may not have owned previously. So it really is a wonderful way, four real estate investors to both diversify, expand, and differ the tax liability in the process of building a portfolio of real estate.

James: Very interesting. But It's within the real estate asset class, right? Can they go from a real estate, you know, equity a 10 31 into something else other than real estate?

Scott: Not as of the end of 2017. And this is something that may be new to your audience. So with the last tax bill, I think it was called the tax cut and jobs act passed by the government in Washington back at the end of 2017, the rules of 1031 were limited. Whereas, previously investors were able to exchange property in maybe in a non-real estate asset. For example, if you owned a, I like to use the example, if you owned a classic car collection, you could sell your antique automobile and exchange the proceeds into real estate or into more cars or fine jewelry and still do it under section 1031. All of that went away at the end of 2017 and left only real estate tangible property is now the only asset class that can be exchanged under the tax deferral section of 1031.

James: Okay. So that's something new. I didn't even know that previously before 2017 you can exchange from other than real estate to other than real estate even though now you know, we all are real estate people so it's all within real estate, which is good.

Scott: And you also hear another common misconception about 1031. The 10 31 exchange is also sometimes commonly called the like-kind exchange. Like-kind is a phrase that is used in the actual language of the tax code. And a lot of investors, and frankly a lot of real estate agents confuse the phrase like-kind as meaning that if you sell multifamily, you must buy multifamily. Or if you sell a commercial property, you must buy a commercial property. That is not the case. Like-kind is very broadly defined by the IRS. Meaning, if you sell anything that has a physical address, a tangible property, you can buy any other category of tangible property. So if you sell a block of single-family homes that you've held as a rental property, you can go buy a warehouse or if you sell a self-storage property, you can go buy a ranch. So it's really any kind of property. It can be exchanged for any other kind of property,[31:24unclear] since 2017, as long as we're talking real estate.

James: Okay. So let me clarify that because we had some kind of sound issue there. So after 2017 we can go and exchange, even though it says like-kind, but you can go within a different asset class, like buying from single-family to a ranch or from multifamily to single-family. Okay. So if you still within real estate, you are good I guess. Right?

Scott: That's right.

James: Got it, got it. Got it. And I think one of the common strategies that a lot of you know, generational real estate investors use is basically to buy real estate and keep on exchanging until they die. And when they die, they gave it to their kids as a gift and where the cost basis starts all over again. And that's the generational wealth Passover, right? Is that true? I mean, did I say it correctly?

Scott: Yeah, it is. And really the 10 31 exchange is, I believe a terrific way to build a real estate legacy. If the investor has heirs or hopes one day to pass a legacy of real estate on to their heirs, 10 31 exchange is an excellent way to do that. Because as long as you continue to sell and then buy real estate under the rules of section 10 31, there's no limit to the number of times you can do it. And as long as you continue to do it, you have deferred your tax liability each time. If at any time you chose to cash out and simply sell your holdings and take the cash and walk away, you're going to owe the tax and in fact, you're going to owe the cumulative tax that you have been deferring. So there actually is with 10 31 a fairly strong incentive once you've begun the process to just keep doing it.

And if you keep doing it until your time is up and you have heirs waiting in the wings, you will upon the date of death of the original owner, that owner will leave to their heirs a legacy of real estate that upon the date of death is stepped up in cost-basis. That's the term that the auditors use such that the cost-basis will then become equal immediately to the market value as of that point in time. And as I like to say, the heirs, if they don't wish to hold on to the real estate, they conceivably could turn around the day after the funeral and go sell everything and pay virtually nothing in capital gains or depreciation taxes.

James: Got it. So that is an awesome tip there. You can use real estate to not pay tax and make tons of money and, of course, your kids are your heirs, they inherited that and they will make the money. But it's a big way to give your wealth that you have created to your heirs, right. And without paying any taxes

Scott: Right. And, again, it, it would then be up to that next generation whether they want to continue to own that real estate and continue to enjoy the benefits of passive income and all the other benefits of owning real estate in a portfolio. Or as I said earlier, if they chose to get out at that time because of the step-up in cost basis, it would potentially eliminate or virtually eliminate all of the capital gain tax liability.

James: Got it. And also the depreciation recapture, right?

Scott: The appreciation recapture as well. Now of course, if there's an estate tax, depending on the size of the portfolio that is inherited, an estate tax may still come into play. But that's an entirely different situation.

James: Estate tax. Okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. So let's come to DST - Delaware statutory trust. And I know some people say this is similar to 10 31. Can you explain what this and why we should use this compared to the normal 10 31?

Scott: Absolutely. So a Delaware statutory trust is not widely known. I've been familiar with these opportunities for about 4-5 years now and I've spoken to many real estate groups, investor groups, agents, attorneys, CPAs. The Delaware statutory trust, in short, is the only form of passive real estate that is eligible as replacement property in a 10 31 exchange. So let me expand on that. A Delaware trust is often compared to a REIT. It's very different from a REIT in many important ways, but it is a legal form of ownership set up around a property, around a physical property, and then offered to investors who may invest in a fractional percentage of the underlying property via the trust.

Because a Delaware trust must own physical property, the IRS recognizes it as another way an investor could engage in a 10 31 exchange. In other words, the 10 31 is just the process of selling and then swopping or buying other real estates. You could either as an investor buy an active property or properties, you're going to be the landlord and hold the deed and be responsible for the rents and the tenants and the repairs. Or you could own a fractional interest in a Delaware statutory trust. You would be a passive investor. The sponsor of the trust would have all management and landlord responsibilities, but as a fractional investor, you would derive your proportionate share of the income. And because there is underline real property in a Delaware trust, the IRS allows these types of trust as an eligible investment via section 10 31.

And so here's really how it works and this is kind of the main core, I think, of the benefits of the Delaware statutory trust, In section 10 31 exchanges, the investor sells a property that begins, as you alluded to earlier, that begins a 45 day calendar, a 45 day clock. That investor has 45 days to identify, in most cases, up to three properties that they intend to reinvest in. Now, they don't have to invest in all three. They could identify one primary property and two backups or two properties and one backup. But they've got to have those properties identified in the first 45 days.

A Delaware statutory trust makes an excellent backup property because it's passive, for one thing. It's open to investment. It's not going to fall out of escrow during the first 45 days as sometimes real properties do. In other words, it's not going to go off the market. If that were to happen with the investor's primary or secondary property and the deals weren't going to close there, if they have named a Delaware trust as a third or as any of their backup properties, their money could then roll back into that trust as an investment and that would effectively secure their 10 31 transactions from start to finish. So Delaware statutory trust makes great backup properties in that first 45 day identification period.

Secondly, in cases where an investor is selling a property and buying a property for less, or actually buying a less expensive property, maybe a value-add property that they want to improve and they're going to have some leftover cash from the deal that they sold, a Delaware statutory trust makes a great way to capture or invest that leftover cash and still secure 100% of the transaction, the 10 31 transaction, from tax. So as a simple example, if you're selling a million-dollar property and the property you want to buy is 850,000, you've got 150,000 leftover. It might be hard to find another real property for 150,000 in some markets. So a Delaware trust comes along as a great way to park or invest that residual leftover cash securing 100% of the 10 31 proceeds from taxation, at least deferring 100% of the tax liability and giving the investor now two different properties.

One is the primary property for 850 that they wanted to buy and fix up or be the landlord over. The other is the 150,000 fractional interest in a passive investment that they will have no work responsibilities to maintain, but they'll be receiving a passive income from that trust. And then the final way that I think Delaware trusts are powerful is if the investor is simply wishing to continue to own real estate but really wants to get out the landlord business entirely. And that would be someone who maybe has been an active landlord for a better part of their investment career, wishes to continue to hold real estate because it's a great asset. Why not? But doesn't want to be a landlord anymore. So they may sell all of their active real estate properties, declare their intent to do a 10 31 exchange and then pick two or three Delaware statutory trust to put 100% of the proceeds into. They now have switched from being an active to a 100% passive investor.

Someone else does the work of the landlord that is the sponsor of the trust. They began to receive the mailbox money or the passive income, still own real estate as part of their portfolio and they've effectively deferred all of what would have been their tax liability from selling their active holdings. And another wonderful thing about two more points about a Delaware trust. You can do a 10 31 exchange out of a Delaware trust. So when the underlying property in the trust sells, which signals the liquidation of the trust, the investor will be notified with plenty of time. They can then declare another 10 31 and take their proceeds out of the Delaware trust, which may have appreciated over that time and they can take those proceeds and swap them into some other property. They can either go into another trust or they can go back into the active real estate market if they choose to. Or of course they have the option to simply cash out, take the cash, and at that time they would incur the tax liability.

And then the other benefit of a Delaware trust is you do not have to do a 10 31 exchange to invest in a Delaware trust. Delaware statutory trusts are open to cash investors. So it's a good way for an accredited investor, which you must be. In order to invest in a Delaware trust, you must be an accredited investor, but you do not have to be bringing money into the trust via 10 31, you could be a cash investor. But once you're in a Delaware trust as fractional owner with either your cash investment or your 10 31 proceeds, you can then when the trust liquidates do a 10 31 exchange. So a Delaware trust provides a good way for a real estate investor who wishes to be passive, doesn't have a property to sell but wants to in the future be able to do a 10 31 exchange. As long as they've got cash and they are accredited, they can invest in a Delaware trust.

And then you know, three to five to sometimes seven years down the road when the trust liquidates, they'll be eligible to do a 10 31 exchange and defer any potential tax that they might have otherwise paid.

James: Wow. I didn't know so many things about DSTs. This is very eye-opening for me. It's like a syndication but it's a tax-protected syndication, right?

Scott: It's a way to take 10 31 money; money coming out of a 10 31 deal and put it into an investment open to up to 500 individual investors typically, which is far more than something like a tenant in common where you're limited to only 35 investors. Delaware trust, yes, you're a fractional owner of a real estate portfolio that is managed by a sponsor who acts as a trustee and you basically, your only job is to go to the mailbox and receive your checks.

James: Got it. Got it. Yeah, I was trying to bring that up. Tenants in commons is another way I thought Delaware strategize is similar to tenants in common. Because in tenants in common is where everybody puts their 10 31, everybody has their own LLCs, all different entities, but they work as one. But you brought up a good point. There's a limit on 35 tenants in common that can be done but DST is 500 people.

Scott: And an important distinction to make there is that with a much higher cap on the number of investors, you're able to fractionally own much larger institutional scale types of real estate. So you may be able to be a fractional investor in a downtown Dallas office tower that's in a Delaware trust, whereas 35 investors, it would be difficult to pull together the 35 investors who could afford to purchase a multimillion-dollar property. But with a Delaware trust, you often are a fractional investor in a property portfolio that could potentially be worth tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars. So access to a larger scale institutional type of property is one of the benefits of what the DST has versus a tenant in common.

And then the other one, now some will see this as a negative, some may see it as a positive. With a tenant in common, each one of the up to 35 investors has a vote. They have some control over the upkeep and the sale or the management of that property. And as you know, when the property is going to be sold, you've got to get the unanimous vote of all 45 investors. With the Delaware trust, the investor is 100% passive. They do not have any say, any control over the management of the property. That's entirely the responsibility [48:05unclear] of the sponsor. They also do not have any control or voice over when the property is going to be sold. So if that appeals to an investor, in other words, if they say, I don't want I have to vote or to have to go get the other 34 people to vote, I just want to be passive, a Delaware trust is a good option compared to [48:31unclear]

James: But what is the average return of Delaware statutory trust?

Scott: So again, that varies. It varies from you know, market conditions and from the difference of Delaware trusts that are available. Typically what I have been seeing lately are rates of return between about five and seven and a half to 8% and that's cash on cash. So cash on cash or nominal right of return is let's just say six to six and a half percent in the midpoint. So while that is not typically a strong rate of return compared to private syndication or even compared to a lot of tenant in common deals, you have to look at the other benefits.

One, again, access to larger institutional scale properties. The fact that the Delaware trust is going to be a registered program, sponsored and regulated by oversight bodies. And then three, although this is also the case with the other types of real estate investment, the sponsor of the Delaware trust in rules similar to REITs. If they are taking depreciation on the underlying property, that tax credit has to be distributed to their investors. So while the nominal rate of return might be 6%, that is the cash on cash return, in many cases, the investor is going to see some portion of that cash dividend be already after tax. In other words, it's going to receive the benefit of that depreciation tax credit that the sponsor is taking. So depending on the investor's tax bracket, their effective rate of return is going to be higher than their nominal rate of return, given that some portion of that distribution is after tax money.

James: Got it, got it, got it. But let's say for example 6% cash in cash, is it including the sale of the property or is there such thing called the sale because they are physical assets under this DST, right?

Scott: Yeah, no, you're right and I thank you. I should be clear. That is the cash flow. Let's say that, again, rates of return I'm typically seeing now average, I would just say average around 6% for this example. That is the cash flow. So that's the annualized cash flow that the investor is going to receive in monthly checks. Obviously one 12th of that amount in monthly check is the underlying property where they have their principal. If that underlying property appreciates over the life of the trust and is sold at a value greater than it was acquired for, the investor is also going to receive their prorated share of that appreciation. So the aggregate return is, I like to call it, or the total return is if the property appreciates is definitely going to be higher than the cash flow rate of return.

James: Okay. So do you have that kind of sample numbers on roughly what's a performer?

Scott: I can refer generically to some of the deals that I've seen. So let's say if an investor puts $100,000 as, let's say in this scenario where I described leftover cash; if they've sold a million-dollar property and they want to do a 10 31 and buy a $900,000 property and put that residual 100,000 into a Delaware trust, I'm just gonna use a number typically four to five, six or seven years. And again, during this time, the investment is illiquid. The investor cannot get their money back on their own schedule. They have to wait until the sponsor finds a buyer and sells the underlying property. But most real estate investors understand the concept of illiquidity.

So if they've put 100,000 into a Delaware trust and five years down the road, the sponsor finds a buyer for that property and sells it at 25% gain, 25% in an appreciation, the investor is going to get their 100,000 back, they're going to get 25,000 for their proportionate share of the 25% gain. And during the five years they've held it, they've collected, I'll use the 6% rate of return as an example, they've collected $6,000 a year in monthly distributions at a 6% rate of return. So they've in effect received in a very simple example, their $100,000 back. They've gotten $30,000 of cashflow over five years and they've received a $25,000 gain or appreciation on their original investment.

James: Got it. Got it. Got it. Interesting. So, yeah, I mean, it depends on the structure of syndication, right? Usually, you know, like for me, we allow people to buy and sell their shares. You know, within the investment period, but it looks like DST doesn't give that flexibility.

Scott: A DST and you know, again, it's important for me to also say that with DSTs, there are still risks involved. You can lose money as you can with any type of investment. The illiquidity of the investment is something that the investor has to be informed of and understand that if they are an investor in a DST, they're at the mercy of the sponsor for the holding period. Now, while the disclosures require that I tell investors it's a five to seven year hold time with no option to exit. Typically with the market right now being what it is, I have seen DSTs liquidate sooner then five to seven years. It's simply varies from yield to deal.

James: And what is the fee that the sponsor takes in DST?

Scott: That again, it varies from deal to deal. Typically there's a 1% a dealer or sponsor fee, at closing. And again, as I mentioned earlier, I do earn a commission on investment that goes into a DST, it can range from anywhere from four to 6%. And, again, it's in the same ballpark as if you were working with a real estate agent and buying the physical property or working with yield syndicator and buying into syndication.

James: Very interesting. I mean, I didn't know this vehicle exists and this is very powerful in terms of 10 31 money specifically. Why? Because you know, and I was thinking that you always have to go in 10 to 200 to go to larger properties, but it looks like you can buy smaller properties and take the remaining and put into DSTs I guess. Right?

Scott: Yeah. It's really a part of my message that using a DST is a great way for an investor to diversify if it is in their interest. First of all, the primary reason anyone would undertake a 10 31 is to defer the tax. But a DST allows that investor to diversify into different types of property, both in terms of asset class or asset and active and passive real estate. So they can begin to sort of put more chest pieces onto the chest board, I guess and look at passive investment, active investment, lodging, self-storage, multifamily, single-family industrial, commercial; build a real estate portfolio that is truly diverse in terms of geography, asset category and the active and passive of ownership status.

James: Got it. So let's quickly talk about qualified opportunities zone. I mean, there's so much of details into opportunity zone. I don't think we have time to go into a lot of details there. But at a high level, what is qualified opportunity zones investment, how is that different from a normal 10 31 and DST and you know, investing into opportunity zones?

Scott: So qualified opportunities zones were also part of this same tax act that passed at the end of 2017. They are a fairly new concept or fairly new opportunity for investors. And the case can be made that opportunity zones were written into law because investments that were not real estate were excluded from section 1031 eligibility. So an opportunity zone is a geographic region of the country and there are a thousand or more opportunities zones all over the country where the local authorities have designated a desire to have investment flow into those zones from investors. They may be, you know, below market regions of cities or communities where the thought being that if investment dollars float into these areas, we would have more healthy economic development.

Qualified opportunity zone investors may use gains from a sale of an investment other than real estate, whereas with 10 31, all you can exchange is real property. So, for example, if an investor has a stock portfolio and it's gone up in value, they want to sell their stock portfolio, but they'd rather not pay the capital gains tax that that's going to incur, they could invest the gain from that sale into a qualified opportunity zone, differ the tax liability, invest in a a property or real estate or real estate fund that's building projects in that zone and then they would enjoy a certain tax benefits due to the deferral of their original gain. If they maintain that investment in the opportunity zone for 10 years, they could then cash out and take their money and pay no tax. So one of the important differences between a 10 31 exchange and an investment in an opportunity zone is to put it simply, you don't have to die in order to cash out tax-free.

James: But do you get 100% tax being erased?

Scott: Not in the first case. You're correct. It really is complicated and we could probably have a whole separate episode on all of that opportunity zones. There are really two appreciation events that are subject to favorable tax treatment when it comes to talking about opportunity zone investments. The first one is the gain that the investor realized on the sale of their asset, whatever it may be that they want to put into an opportunity zone. So if they sold real estate that had gone up in value or sold stock, or I'll go back to my classic car example, and had an investment sale that would have been subject to capital gains tax, they can defer that tax up to seven years by putting that investment into an opportunity zone. Now, it is only a seven-year deferral. So after seven years, the investor will owe a portion of the tax they would have owed on the original sale of their investment.

It will only be, in the case of a seven-year deferral, it'll only be 85% of the tax they would have owed. So it is truly just a deferral. You do have to come up with tax payment, at least 85% of the tax you might have owed seven years ago. In year seven, that tax bill does come due to the IRS. But understand now we're talking about two different investments. The investment that was sold to make the original opportunity zone investment, the tax four, which is deferred seven years. So it might be a benefit to an investor's cash flow and then the investment within the opportunity zone itself. And if that investment turns out to have been a good one, and the real estate or the property or the project in the opportunity zone appreciates over 10 years -hold time- and the investor then cashes out of that opportunity zone investment that will be exempt from capital gains tax.

So it's that second investment in the opportunity zone that if it is a winner, if it appreciates over 10 years, the investor has the potential to cash out with their gain and owe zero capital gains tax.

James: Got it. Got it. Very interesting. So let me summarize. 10 31 DST and qualified opportunity zone. So 10 31 let's say I have a million-dollars, where I want to defer my tax and my depreciation recapture, I just buy another asset, right? A larger asset or multiple assets, but it should be a larger value than all of it get deferred. And to the next asset, if I don't want to pay tax, I have to, you know, keep on doing 1031 until I die and pass it to my heirs. That's the 10 31. So DST is basically you asked it's the same as 10 31, but it's more of passive investment.

Scott: Let me, let me jump in there and clarify it. A 10 31 is just a transaction. It's a way to sell and then buy real estate and defer the tax, not pay tax during that transaction. A DST is an asset. It's a kind of an investment. It is a passive real estate investment that can be a part of the equation of the 10 31 transaction.

James: Got it. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And qualified opportunity zone is basically, it's the same as 10 31, but you're deferring your tax for seven years and on the seventh year, your bill is due to the IRS, but you get 15% forgiveness.

Scott: You basically get a discount based on discount on the tax that you would have owed in year one. You'll owe 85% of it by the time year seven comes around. And so again, that was the tax you would have owed on whatever it was you sold to make the opportunities zone investment.

James: Got it. Got it. So the original tax difference, you only pay 85% after year seven, right? So you get 15% forgiveness. But I think the bigger thing in an opportunity zone is whatever deal that you're investing in an opportunity zone that's completely free in terms of capital gain after 10 years.

Scott: Yeah. Right, right. If the investment you have made in the opportunities zone does well and it goes up in value and 10 years down the road you have the opportunity to exit, you'll owe no tax.

James: Okay. That's very interesting because that's another investment where you don't pay tax at all. And if you're doing most of the time you definitely make money, right. If you go through the construction phase and you're past that I guess. Right.

Scott: Well, I will say that opportunity zones are new. There are a lot of risks involved. We don't have time probably to go into them here, but yes, there are a lot more considerations to making a potentially successful opportunity zone investment, but in the basics, I think you've got it correct.

James: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard about so much of details on opportunity zone that you're to be really careful whether it's a qualifies opportunity zone and, you know, there's so many things, right. So awesome.

Scott: And you know, James, this is a good opportunity for me just to mention as kind of a way of a disclaimer. I am not an attorney and I'm not a CPA. And one of the most important pieces of advice I give to my clients is if you're doing any of these complicated real estate transactions, check with your lawyer, check with your CPA to make sure that you've gotten all your questions answered before you write the check.

James: Yeah. I think the purpose of this podcast and talking about so many things of this is just educational and just letting people know there are options out there. Which is very important because I was not aware of DSTS and you know, there are so much of details of the, you know, opportunity zone. So it was very eyeopening for me, so thank you very much. I appreciate it. Why not you tell our audience how to get hold of you if they want to get hold of you?

Scott: You bet. Sure. again, I'm Scott Hendricks. My company is called Current Investments. My website is currentinvestments.net. That's all one word, current, like the flow of water and then investments plural.net. You'd be welcome to send me an email or give me a call. My email is [email protected]. My phone number...Do you typically, do your guests share their phone number?

James: That's up to you.

Scott: Okay, well that's fine. I don't mind at all. My phone number in Austin is

512 563 2134

James: Awesome. All right, Scott, thanks for coming in. I learned a lot of things. I'm sure my audience and listeners learned a lot of things and that's it. Thank you.

Scott: It was fun. James. Thanks very much.

James: Hey, audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth True Value-add Real Estate Investing. I'm here today with Mark Kenny, who's the founder and I'm not sure, the president or what's the title?

Mark: Yeah, well my wife and I together so we might have different opinions but...

James: Okay. Both of you run the King multifamily. But before that, before we go into the hot topics that we're going to discuss with Mark, make sure that you guys look at last week's episode where we had KK Singh being interviewed. KK has moved from a business owner. He used to own gas stations and laundry mat and now he's become a multifamily investor, which is a very, very interesting concept. Because I think any business owner, anybody who wants to know how that business is run and why he's using multifamily, why did he go into multifamily? And he didn't even pay tax last year just because of the multifamily investment. So you guys want to check out the last episode.

But let's come back to this episode. Hey Mark, welcome to the show.

Mark: Thanks for having James. Great to see you again.

James: Awesome. Also, I'm happy to have you on the show. So, Mark, he's a GP, almost like 5,200 units, out of that 2000 units where he's basically the primary active asset manager and he's also GP on another 3,200 on top of the 2000 units. And he goes across multiple markets, which is very interesting for me. I want to go a bit deep dive into that. You know, he's in Texas, he's in Alabama, he's in Tennessee, he's in Florida and I believe that's what I covered. Right. Mark?

Mark: Georgia, as well.

James: Georgia. Okay, got it. Got it. Atlanta. Right. So yeah. So Mark, did I miss out on something about yourself? Do you want to tell the audience about yourself?

Mark: No, I mean, yeah, real quick. So I grew up in Michigan. I'm in Dallas now, so not too far away from you, James. But I was a CPA for a while, did IT consulting, which you and I traded some stories about that before about the IT side and I started buying small multi-family when I was 22, I was a senior in college. About two to four units and then my brother and I...I didn't know what syndication was. Syndication is the fancy word for raising money from other people for the most part and pooling it together to buy properties. I didn't know what that was. So I started buying two to four units. And then my IT business was doing pretty well. That was, I really had no time. I always, I'd say 80, 85 hours a week and start really doing the math.

I was probably 90 to a hundred hours a week and a lot of weeks. And you know, frankly didn't have any time for my wife, caused some issues and so she basically said, you need to do something different than what you're doing. And I said, well, yeah, I will. But you know you have to deal with me and we both love real estate. So we started buying larger properties through syndication. I invested passively first in a syndication with a friend of mine, said it makes a lot of sense and you know, why don't I look at doing it myself and that's what we started doing back in 2013.

James: Got it. Got it. It's very interesting about your story when you're working on a W2 job, especially in the IT tech industry. I mean, it's a lot of work, we put in long hours, right? It's a constantly changing sector, right? The industry is consistently changing. We are always driven by schedule and I was just talking to, Shanti, who's my wife and all and how our life has changed when we used to be in W2 every day, like Fridays when we can really open up our time, open up because from Monday to Friday we are like so busy working like [03:55unclear] focused and where I used to work, we used to work remote as well. So after five, six o'clock we used to work like, you know, we have lunch, we have dinner, and we continued working with the offsite team. So life never ends. And now with real estate, it's so much of a difference. Now you own your own time and you're out on what to do and we can, you know, my traveling time in Austin is like 11 to 2. That's it because it's a bit of traffic.

Mark: Yeah. It's interesting, right? I mean, I actually started my own IT business 2008 so I didn't even have a W2 job since 2008. But I got in a situation where, you know, any project that came up and any unrealistic timeframe that was out there, I would do it. I would make the dates. So that's what allowed me to get more and more projects. I had a number of Fortune 100 companies as customers, but so even though I have my own business back then, I still didn't have the luxury of time. You know, I was always going somewhere, always doing projects and yeah, I'd be up, I sleep three hours a night, like consistently, that's all I would sleep.

James: I mean, you don't have to go by numbers, but did you make like almost a similar amount of money compared to what you made in real estate? I mean, it's a time versus money investment, right?

Mark: It's a great question because when I first started looking at syndication, I said I'm not going to be able to replace my IT income. And I truly, it was a mindset. It really was. I really did not think I'd replaced my IT income. It was pretty, pretty high at the time. And after three projects that I did in multifamily I stopped doing IT. I had not replaced my IT income at that point in time, but it was enough to live and live, you know, decent. And then we've done, you know, we've done 37 projects, whatever now. But I didn't think I was gonna replace IT. But yeah, we've far surpassed it. I mean a lot frankly, and the time we have, and I don't have to ask anyone to go anywhere or you know, things like that, you can turn it on and off if you want to. Where in IT, if you're not working, not making any money, you don't have that passive income.

James: So you have a very interesting life cycle because you were working in

IT, a W2 job and then you went to do your own business but still in IT. And now you are completely a full-time real estate investor. So, so in terms of time wise, I mean from what we're discussing, I mean, real estate investment gives you the best return of time, right? I mean, you get really good pay and at the

same time, your time is like, really low.

Mark: There is no comparison. You know, you mentioned about talking to your wife a higher life is different. I mean, my life has, you know, 180 degrees different for the better than when it was before. I was on the verge of, you know, I'm not sure, you know, Tammy, my wife wasn't only happy because of my work schedule and now we got to work full time together. Just like you get to work with your wife, which is great. And the time, you know, if I want to go somewhere and you can get to the point with multifamily or any real estate investment, you get enough of it. If you choose to go sit on the beach, which I don't want to do, frankly I don't but if you choose to go and do that, you get in a position to do that for sure. With IT, I wouldn't be able to, I had to keep working projects in order to make money.

James: Yeah. But can we go back to your mindset when you are working, not as a business owner, when you are working in IT? Because I sometimes analyze my own mindset when I was working, because when I was working in IT, I did look at Robert Kiyosaki's book and I could not read like a few pages because it just doesn't make sense to me, we are so busy working. What is this guy talking about business. And after a few pages I put it down and I forgot about it until recently I started reading it and I was just surprised that that book changed a lot of people, real estate investors' life. But I don't know, I think when you are working you're really, really working, you really don't care about the business side of it and I mean, I think it's up to your circle, right? Who are you mixing with?

Mark: That's a great point. I know when I worked originally at KPMG Consulting and I worked for SAP you know, did some Salesforce consulting and things like that. And you're looking at other people that are older than you at the time I started out, it was, you know, early twenties when I started out. And look at other people that are partners, for example, and you have this image, you're like, that's my lifestyle. I'm going to be traveling all the time and I'm going to be working seven days a week, which is what I did. And you know, and then, you know, some point in time, not everyone gets to the point where I was, where my point was. And my wife was pretty much ready to leave me if I didn't do anything. And that was a big eye-opener for me. But you're right, you get trapped in that circle of influence, right? And everyone's doing the same thing. And at that time, I aspire to be a partner and I would've made partner, I mean, made a manager in two years and things like that. But I would have been miserable, frankly. I would have been.

James: So compared to the job security, I mean, I don't know whether there's job security in any job or not because there is no job security, right? I mean, when I was a manager, I used to hire and fire people very quickly just because of non-performance, right? So there is no job security, right? I mean, I use to work on a semiconductor industry for like almost 20 years and we thought we were going to retire there but we realize you know, during different economic cycles, the company doesn't really, you know, honor your loyalty. I mean, there's no such thing. They have to make a business decision, they'll let you go if they need to let you go. There's no such thing as a company is going to be keeping you forever.

Mark: Right, right. That's true.

James: Right. So yeah, coming back to real estate venture. So 2008 was when you got into IT and when did you start your real estate venture?

Mark: Syndication; 2013 is when I first started investing passively and invested in a few deals. And about that time I started looking at syndication, but it took me almost a year to get my first deal. And it was partly, I was looking at other things too; self-storage and building custom development, you know, homes and things like that, franchises. I looked at everything. I was looking for something to get me out of the bad situation I was in. But it still took us about a year to get our first deal.

James: So did you stop work and start into real estate? Was it a step function or was it like a...

Mark: It is gradual; for me, it took me three deals. So I'm thinking, let me see, 2014 is when I think I got my first deal, I don't remember exactly. But by '16 I had stopped doing IT.

James: Got it. Was that a painful transition from a business owner to a real estate investor?

Mark: No, it really wasn't for me anyway. You know, I've always had a big fear of money and you know, I wish I did, but I always did cause growing up and things like that. But we had enough money set aside to where, you know, I looked at it, if I had to go back and do IT, I had so many connections at a time, I could get a job pretty much, you know, right away. I didn't want to, but I was like, okay, well, I have a transition I'm making here, but if I fail, that was my mind, if I failed at doing this and after taking a year to find my first deal, I was pretty skeptical. And then we started getting the traction. So I was like, Hey if I need to go back, I can do that. I don't want to do it. But if I do, I can support the family. The transition wasn't hard for me. We were buying at that time only in Dallas, so I really wasn't having to travel outside Dallas. Yeah. So it was a pretty easy transition.

James: Got it, got it. So as I was talking about that, you had like three different lifecycles, right? You're a W2 employee, you're a business owner and then you become a real estate investor and you are a CPA. So I'm going to ask you, similar to CPA question, how was your tax advantages comparing these three life cycles?

Mark: Okay. So you know, even though I'm a CPA, I haven't practiced for 20...

James: But at a high level, was there any tax benefit between...

Mark: Oh yeah. Without a doubt. When I had the IT business, you know, I was actually paying taxes quarterly. I was getting hit hard. I mean, I was making decent money. Now, in the last two years, we haven't paid any federal income tax like zero. And in fact, it's negative. So people were like, Oh, you didn't make any money. No, we make money. But from the tax benefit we received through depreciation and cost segregation and bonus appreciation, we pay zero federal income tax. So, I mean, think about people listening to this, if you didn't have to pay taxes, how much more money you'd have in your pocket and what you could do with that?

James: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I have a chart that shows how a $2 double for the next 20 years. And you know, at a 25% rate, that $2 becomes 72,000 after 20 years because you're taxed 25% every time you double, right? But if you don't have tax, that $2 becomes almost like $11 million, you know.

Mark: Oh, boy, Oh my goodness.

James: So the tax does impact your compounding savings. And if you don't look at it, you may not know. I mean, when I was working, I never really looked at tax because as I say, we are busy working. We just look at net pay coming to the thing. I mean taxes, like it's not nice for me. But when I look at that kind of chart, you know, it does make a lot of difference in terms of, Hey, you know, it does impact your overall savings. You know, if you compounded for not [13:53unclear] you see a big difference, millions of dollars of difference.

Mark: Oh yeah. And like you mentioned, when you have a W2 job, it just comes out, you notice it, you don't like it. But when you have your own business, my own IT business, you have to write check every quarter you really notice it. And then you're like, I made that much money this quarter and where did it all go? And now I have to write a check for, you know, X number of dollars. And you know, you're just scratching your head and you're frustrated and stressed out. But with real estate, it's literally zero.

James: So did you have employees under you when you have a business?

Mark: All 1099.

James: Okay. So if you have an employee, then you're to pay tax for them too, I guess. So that's double taxation

Mark: That's exactly right.

James: Okay. So W2, I mean, I don't know. I have a chart that shows W2 people are paying almost 70% of the tax in this country. So this country is supported by people who are in W2. They are the ones who's paying taxes. They're the ones building the roads, the bridges, and all the infrastructure. Right? The 30% is from the other people who are earning less than 30,000 or people who are earning more than 500,000 and above.

Mark: Yeah.

James: Right? I mean, people who are earning more than 20,000 to pay a lot of taxes. But in general, if you look at it, the big bulk of it is paid by our W2 employees.

Mark: Right. Makes sense.

James: Just because you can't run away.

Mark: You can't. There are no savings, no tax shelters.

James: Absolutely. I'd say real estate investors, all kinds of you know incentive in the tax code to not paying taxes. So coming back to your real estate venture in multifamily, and you skipped over buying single-family and you went direct to multifamily.

Mark: We did. I mean, multifamily, two to four units when I was 22. Yeah. So it was smaller for sure. It made more sense to me, frankly. I don't remember, I actually didn't look at any homes. I don't know why I'd go back and think about that. Why I didn't start looking at any single-family homes. To me, we looked at two to four units at a time.

James: Well, I mean if you look at cashflow, two to 14 definitely make a lot more sense in terms of cash flow. Right? Maybe that's what it is. And how many two to four units did you own before you come to multifamily?

Mark: We had like 17 units total.

James: Okay. 17 in two to four units, I guess. Smaller multifamily. And do you think that helped you when you scale up?

Mark: It did. Because I know you manage, right? You and your wife manage. When we did the smaller properties, we self-managed and we took care of things and evicted people. So it definitely helped from that perspective. I didn't like the process, it's not something I want to do now, but it also, even though it's drastically different how you evaluate four units and below and in five units and below is drastically different, people can argue all day long steps are almost identical, right? You identify your criteria, you go drive by a property, contract, blah, blah, everything's the same. So it helped for sure. Plus just kind of, you know, getting comfortable with buying your first deal is the hardest. So once you start, you know, I bought like whatever it was, you know, five deals, six deals, I don't remember the number, exactly. It gets you more comfortable. So when you go buy a larger property, it's bigger numbers. So it is concerning whatever I had already done, you know, like six transactions before that time, even though they're small, it helped.

James: Got it. Got it. I mean, in a way, it helps because I mean, you know at least how to read the lease and you probably know how real estate section happens, right?

Mark: Your first time signing for your first deal, usually you're most likely going to be pretty freaked out, right? You've done six smaller deals. It's still, then when you start doing bigger deal, then it's the money. Right? The only thing that concerned me, you know, I have to say only it really was the, you know, brain capital to the deals. I had no concerns about how to underwrite the deals that I knew how to do that or how to find deals or talk to brokers or loan. It was always about, you know, the capital. That was my biggest concern.

James: Okay. Okay. But do you think that's still an issue in this market cycle?

Mark: Yeah. I'm always concerned about capital. You know, we have like eight deals under contract right now. You know, so we've never not closed a deal, but you know, that's the one thing that's still stressing me out sometimes, frankly.

James: Yeah. Because you need to figure out whether you have big enough investor base too in all those eight deals.

Mark: That's right.

Mark: Okay. Got it. So coming back to this, no multiple markets that you have, I mean, do you want to explain on how did you get into this so many markets? I mean, I think some of it is you've partnered with some of your students, right?

Mark: Well, originally I was just buying pretty much with one other person off in Dallas. Dallas, and at least, in my opinion, was definitely getting more expensive and it's even more expensive now. I have a twin brother that moved to Atlanta so I used to visit him and Atlanta has a lot of similarities to Dallas. Dallas is yet, and it may never be, but it definitely has a lot of similarities. So I started traveling there. I looked at properties for about a year and a half before we got our first deal. And I just really like the market. That kind of was if my brother wasn't there, I don't know if I would be in Atlanta, frankly. I don't know if I would have thought about going there. When I'm going there, I see a lot of activity, new buildings, new development cranes, things like that. So it was an attractive market.

And then, so that's Texas and you know, kind of the Atlanta area. And then we started looking in the Southeast. This is a general statement. Some of the brokers cross different estates sometimes too. They might, if they have a license, they can actually sell in multiple States and they might say, Hey, now, we're in Tennessee, we have a project here, we have a project up in Arkansas now, which we don't own anything there yet. So these brokers started giving us deals and I started checking out different markets. And really, the way I got into the other markets as far as initially was I would have brokers in Dallas typically reached out to other brokers in other markets and make an introduction for me. And that kind of gives you instant credibility and they're going to typically give you the best of the best of brokers to work with in another market. And that's how we got involved in other markets.

James: Got it. So how did you choose this market? I mean, except for Atlanta where you said your brother was there, you initially went there because of Atlanta, but now you are like in five different markets. Tennessee, Alabama, Florida. I mean, now, how did you choose these markets and why these markets?

Mark: Yeah. A friend of mine who I've done a lot of deals with, he had bought a smaller deal in Memphis and I never would have considered Memphis. And some people don't like Memphis. We own a lot there. We've done really well there. But Memphis also has, you know, even though [21:05 unclear] job growth population growth, things like that, it's okay, but not like Dallas, of course. But the rent growth has been going up. They're putting, you know, several billion dollars in investments of downtown. But that particular city also has something called a pilot program, which we've done multiple times. Where you can go in, you buy a multifamily property, you have to put a certain amount of capital into it. It's a lot. And then you'll get your property taxes cut in half and then they're frozen for 20 years. So I mean, as you know, property taxes is typically one of the largest, right? [21:44unclear] I can freeze them for 20 years. Cash flow is going to typically be pretty nice on it.

James: Hmm. So you're basically taking advantage of that particular program. What about the other States that..."

Mark: Yeah, Florida, I always looked, I like Florida just because of probably the weather initially and when we were in Atlanta we started looking in Florida as well. And Florida has, I mean, some areas like Miami that as you probably know are extremely expensive, just not going to buy there. But I also have a cousin, multiple cousins actually live in Florida and so I heard different things from talking to them. And then some of the brokers we were talking to like in Georgia and stuff like that, had some properties in Florida and a property came up and the first time we're looking at properties there. I liked the properties in Jacksonville and we have a few properties there now. And it was one of those markets, again, similar to Atlanta, job growth, population growth, rent growth. It doesn't have to be off the charts, frankly.

Some of the markets where it's so off the charts, it's just too expensive to buy in, the yields. You can't get the returns. And then with Alabama, it was a guy that had a deal and was looking to partner and I partnered with him on a few deals. He had deals there in Alabama. And then we have another one right now, a guy in our coaching group that has a deal in Alabama as well. He's closer over by there as far as that's where he'd been looking. So usually it's through some sort of relationship. Somebody either already lives there or someone is looking there and then it kind of gives me an opportunity to check the markets out.

James: Got it, got it. So basically if you have boots on the ground as part of your program, that's an advantage definitely. Right?

Mark: It is for sure.

James: But don't you find, you know, establishing broker relationship in that kind of market it's harder because you, I mean they did not know you, right?

Mark: It is, there's no question. I mean, you know, I think that's why it took us so long to get into Atlanta. We had a really hard time breaking in there. And then once we got in there, you know, it was just one brokerage firm in Atlanta that we closed 11 deals in like 18 months with. We've definitely had their attention. With that first deal., I went to Florida. I mean, I was banging my head against the wall because we couldn't get any traction with brokers there. I would say, you know, you just keep sticking with it, but there's no question, you know, if you're an outsider, don't live there and you've never bought a deal there, you're at a disadvantage. You can use things like, Hey, your track record and you can have brokers that I know.

So when we got a deal in Florida, our first deal, it was with a brokerage firm that I had bought a deal in Dallas with and the broker in Dallas had called me about it. So he, you know, if you want to say put a good word in for us. So a lot of these brokers talk as, you know, it's very small world. Yeah. And I don't think we would've gotten that deal in Florida if I had not bought a deal without a broker, you know, brokerage firm if you want to stay in Dallas, I think we would have probably not been selected for that deal.

James: Got it. So let's go a bit more detail into that step by step. So let's say today somebody, you know, in your circle or one of your students come, Hey, you know, I found a deal in Florida, right? Somewhere in Florida, right? So what are the things that you would do to underwrite the deal?

Mark: Yeah. You know, the underwriting different aspects of it, forget the reports and stuff for a second. But you know, even financing terms can be drastically different across the country. Some of the pre-review cities and stuff like that start at 65%. So you want to first understand, don't assume we're getting 80% leverage in three or five years IO in every single location because it's different. So understanding first, the insurance can be drastically different. You know, if you're on a coastal area, it can be a lot higher than all the other areas and understand kind of the fundamentals there.

Taxes, you know, do they get reassessed? And that can be through, we have a tax consultant we use, but also you can typically just call the County and the County will tell you kinda how the taxes will be reassessed and when. You know, in Memphis, that's every four years so that's important to know. They only reassess every four years. And then we'll get like a report, whether it's Yardi or CoStar. Those are paid reports. We'll also use things like some free...we have a number of links on our analyzer that take you to things like crime and the school districts things like that. Those are all links we have on that. But overall, nothing beats having someone on the ground, you know. So if you can talk to other people there and talking to lenders, you know, lenders have the biggest investment in a deal than anybody as a general statement where they have more money involved. So try to understand from lenders to kind of how some of the properties are performing there, it is important. In the report, as I said, it's only as good as the report. It is good data. A lot of it's based on, you know, actual transactions that have happened, but I'm trying to get someone like a broker or property management company. So if we have a property management company you know, David Shore is multi South in Memphis and he's in seven other, he's actually in seven other States.

Once we built that relationship, then we start asking him questions. He'll tell us, don't even look at that deal, it's not a good deal. This deal maybe you can look at, you know, 95% of deals he tells us not to look at there. So having some boots on the ground can't be replaced. It might take you a while to do that. It's typically going to be like a management company or maybe, you know, a broker, but you know, brokers in to sell, you know, they wouldn't, don't get paid unless they sell a property. So kind of all the different aspects. Reports talking to people, visiting the area, trying to understand what happened before in the past. Those areas are all good ways to kind of get more Intel on the property.

James: So you basically look at location, crimes, making sure how are you underwriting your tax records.

Mark: The tax is huge.

James: Every state is different.

Mark: Yeah. Every state, county; city even sometimes. So we have like I say a tax consultant, but we have found really if you call the County and tell them the property what you're doing, they'll tell you how they reassess and they'll give you a good number. And we've only had like a couple of occasions where it hasn't really given us the information we want. Generally speaking, we always get the information we need from the County.

James: Got it. Got it. So who have told you the most knows? I mean like who say don't touch that deal most of the time? Is it a property management company or is it the tax consultant or insurance company?

Mark: Property management company. Without a doubt. It may be they don't want to manage it.

James: Well how do you know they just don't like that property. Maybe it's just because...

Mark: I know you self-manage. We have found in almost every submarket we ran with a management company, even if they don't manage a property today, they're like, we manage that property five years ago and you know like in that, you might have some Intel. We got a property here where a number of properties in Dallas I've looked at and our management company managed it. So I called the guy and said, Hey, what's up with that? And he'll say, you know, it had like $200,000 of plumbing issues or whatever it might be. But usually someone that's large in a submarket, they know the property or they at least know you know the area well enough to give you some really good Intel and it seems to amazed me where people are like, well, THE manageMENT company says we can push rents like $75, I think we can do it like by 125. it's like there's no basis for that. Like why do you think you can do that?

You can push your management company and ask them questions and things like that. You know, if I go try and do a comp for a property myself, I don't fit the demographics, I'm probably not going to get a good comp. Have a management company do it for you. They'll actually send people out there that fit the demographics. They'll actually get you comps and pictures and things like that. Go into some of these reports...I get called all the time from, I won't name them, but these providers of data call me all the time. I don't talk to them. And half time the information you get, you don't even know if it's right. It's coming through there. So, yeah.

James: So how do you know the management company that is calling is not the current management company?

Mark: Yeah, it's happened before. You know, you can ask the broker who managed it today. They'll tell you because it could be for sale and the property management company doesn't even know it. And if you call them and tell them, Hey, I'm looking at this property for sale, then they're going to be pretty upset.

James: Yeah. I've looked at out-of-state as well at one point. And I realized management company gives me the best quick data. They can tell me a lot of things about a state compared to anybody else, right. Because they know the pain of managing it. So yeah, I would say they are one of the best resources to call if you're looking at out of state investment. So after that, what do you do? I mean, you already looked at taxes, you already looked at the property, so it's all good. So what do you do next?

Mark: So then we'll underwrite it. Usually using, you know, we have a quick analyzer. We have a much more detailed analyzer. In the detailed analyzer, we're going to go through every expense category, like line by line, compare them to the, you know, T12. We'll try to get two independent property management budgets so we get that. And then our analyzer also has industry standards based on property, class, and size. We'll tell you what the standards are for every single category. Which is very helpful to see if something's out of whack. You know, I just had an example. Somebody not in a group, if someone's sent me something, it was two properties. It was over 300 doors together and they had payroll at $750 a door. I'm like, no, it's not going to happen. Or we're going to share the property manager on-site across the two properties and might not for 300 plus units, we're not going to, not very easily.

So I said, okay, so does the management company say they're okay with that? No. And if they did, what happened was that if you have to get rid of them and now you're going to bring in another management company, they're going to be at $1,200 a door. It just happened, another one today actually on something where they're getting charged two and a half percent on 80 doors. I said that's pretty low, two and a half percent. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you need to probably bump that up because just because one management company said they'll do it for that, if they're not your management company anymore, then you're going to be paying more.

James: Yeah. Yeah. You can't underwrite just because one person said it. I mean two and a half is really low compared to any industries. Whenever I see sponsors or syndicators showing me a deal, I mean, not many people should me their deals, but I do get to see some people still. I mean, when they say they want to share management, that is an indication that you know that deal doesn't have that much upside. They have to do really, really creative weird stuff. They will share this, share that, we have to do. [33:15 unclear] covered parking. We have to do washer dryer and that's all that really small amount of upside. And that is not a good deal.

Mark: That's just the gravy. You're exactly right. I mean, you know it, right? You manage your properties and people are like, I'm going to share. I was like, you're not going to. I mean, if you think it was that easy, don't you think all the management companies would do it?

James: You're going to compromise a lot of things when you share management. And as I said, when you're going to that extent to really justify your upside in the deal, that means the deal is really not a good deal.

Mark: Well, James, I have people who'd be like, we're going to put in like wifi and charge this and they're trying to put that in an underwriting and I'm like, yeah. First of all, you might not be able to because of the cable contract. Right. You might not be allowed to, and second of all, let's just assume you're able to do that, is that needed in your analysis to make the deal work? I sure hope it doesn't. You know, it doesn't mean that.

James: Those who are learning this business, the biggest bulk of the deals that work is when you can bump up rent and you can reduce expenses if you can do these things is a big thing. So if you see any deals that you can, majority of your upside comes from here. You know, I don't look at adding more one or two washer and dryer, adding parking, adding wifi. That's what you said or sharing management. That's all right. Really the deal doesn't work at all. I think the sponsor's just trying to squeeze all kinds of juice and tell you that it's going to work, but in reality, it is really, really hard to make all that work. I mean that all that is just a bonus. If it works, it's good.

Mark: Yeah, that's exactly right. And your total expenses, you could go up because the property taxes, but you know some of your points of your own, you reduce the expenses. I mean there are huge savings in water lots of times for operators. You can go in there and do repair and maintenance. We see lots of times you do as well, I'm sure were people are putting capital items in repair maintenance and they're like $1,400 a door per year. I mean that's a really high, right? So they're just putting stuff up there. If you go in and get a loan you're able to put capital in there and maybe do roofings and a/c and things like that, you can most likely bring your repair maintenance down more to industry standard. So for looking for those things, but if you don't know what those standards are, you know, you don't have any gauge.

James: Sure, sure, sure. So we don't have to talk about your detail and analysis that you do, but on the sniff test that you have a quick analysis. So one of the few things that you would look at to, you know, kick out a project

Mark: Return wise, I'll look at, you know, we still shoot for like a 10% cash on cash return, which is getting harder

James: 10% with the IO on year one, I guess.

Mark: Yeah. Overall or if the product is a five-year project, 10% cash in cash, 15% plus IRR and 100%; 100% is getting harder on five years, frankly for a lot of properties, closer to six. In some markets, it's more than that, but usually we try to stay in six and below to double the money. And then I'm looking at other things like, you know, what cap rate are they using? You know, on their exit, how they get the current cap rate, the broker. I mean, I had someone, no joke, in Florida called me and said- it wasn't Miami, by the way- they said, Oh, the broker told me the cap rate is 3 and a half. You know what I mean? So those types of things, right. So you can make any deal work. It's on a piece of paper,

James: Just change the exit cap rate.

Mark: Exactly right. I have an example, I do in our workshop where I'm like, you know this, and then you do the cap rate down to two, what does it do? And then, you know, other things are going to be more round, you know, total income growth over the first couple of years. What does it look like? You know, I'll see sometimes people think we're going to grow income 30%. I'm not saying it's impossible to do that, but I see a property as, you know, 92% occupied and you go up 30%, your total income in a year is pretty high so you need to have justification for that. So basically we look at a lot of different gauges, break-even occupancy, break-even reds and then the financing. You know, people don't understand financing well enough. Lots of times as far as what the hell they're going to do that.

James: It can make or break a deal. Right? So let's look at like the rent growth and the exit cap rate, right? So how do you differentiate these rent growth and exit cap rate on this like five different markets there?

Mark: Well the market cap rates, so we always start with the submarket cap rate, doesn't matter which property it is. And we have different ways to get that through reports and things like that. And then we put an escalator on it, an annual escalator, and it'll be different between ABC assets. And we have some ranges there. Some markets actually, you know, Dallas has gotten compressed so much on class C, you know, it was like eight and a half percent in '13. Now, it's like five cap for a lot of properties and you don't know if it's ever gonna go back. So we'll usually use you know, minimum 0.1 up and then up to a 0.2 for a year. So it could be, you know, full a hundred basis points on a five-year exit and a lot of it's depending on the property and location.

I mean some of them, some of the markets that the cap rates the banks compressed there but they haven't compressed as much as like Dallas. I mean they might've been..I'll just make an example, say Dallas eight and a half. Now it's five and the market there might have been seven and a half and now it's six. So it went down, you know, one and a half percent total. But we'll actually, we'll look at the property, the type of property that, you know, the age of it as a class and then the demographics and we'll add an escalator on an annual basis for it. So each year it escalates up.

James: But how do you decide that? So for example, I think in Texas a lot of people uses 3% rent growth, right? Even though some cities are different.

Mark: Well, no, for rent growth we usually use 2%. This is across the board, across all markets after year two. Your first two years as you know, you might have come in and you're increasing rents, rephase revenue in and things like that. After year two, the general statement is going to be 2%.

James: What about expenses?

Mark: Two.

James: Okay, so 2% income growth. 2% on year two onwards I guess. Which makes a lot of sense. I mean, you're not really counting for the first year for value add.

Mark: Right and it might be higher. I mean some people were like in Dallas, you know, seven and a half percent rent increase growth for a while. And people were like, I'm like, but that's like today, one point in time it's proved where, you know, Dallas rent increases have gone down considerably. It's still a great market, I like the market. I don't really buy here right now, but you can't count on today. Or someone will say, Hey, the economic vacancy is 6% and I'm like, yeah, but I mean, good for them. But you can't count on that.

James: You can't count on that. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, yesterday there was a national multifamily trend report which shows I mean Dallas is below national average in terms of rent growth, right? So San Antonio and Austin, Austin has been always higher than national rent growth but San Antonio is higher than national rent growth. I never seen that San Antonio being higher than Dallas. I mean it's just cities change. You have to be really conservative in your underwriting.

Mark: I think people are like, enough is enough, right? When rents go up, you know, seven plus percent for a few years in a row, people are like, you know. And it doesn't mean it's a bad, bad market. I mean, there are 150,000 people a year here that moved to, [41:07unclear] you know, net. So there's great jobs and population growth. I've been arguing that for a while. It doesn't matter all those things happen. At some point in time, people will say enough is enough.

James: Yeah. People can't pay anymore.

Mark: In a 2% increase in their wage or whatever they get in 7% in rent, you know, four years in a row, it has a big impact on them.

James: Absolutely. Absolutely. But how do you like for example, in your experience, because you're working on multiple markets, right? I mean apart from Texas, which has seen a good rent growth, I mean, I think even Florida is seeing a good rent growth. I do not know what other markets house in Tennessee, Alabama and I think...

Mark: Georgia is good as a whole. I mean some markets and we bought in a place called Gainesville, Georgia, not Florida. The property has done phenomenal. But that's a secondary market for sure. It's about 45 minutes from Atlanta, but it's like, you know, a 7% rent growth right now. Same with Dalton, Northeast, you know, almost close to Chattanooga rent growths. Florida, like you said, is high; parts of Georgia is definitely high. Alabama and Tennessee, I would say are mediocre, frankly, they're just going to be average. Now, Memphis in general, the random amounts are lower, but the rent growth there is quite high right now from a percentage standpoint. But you know, the starting with rents, half of Dallas, wherever it is, right. So it's proportional, but the percent of rent growth in Memphis is actually quite high right now. The last I saw, it was in the top 10 in the country.

James: Oh really? Okay. Okay. And what about the exit cap rate? Right. So usually, I mean the usual underwriters, people use like one, to 0.2 more than what the market is. Do you use the same exit cap rates in the other markets?

Mark: We take the current and we'll add...so let's say the current was a six cap, we'll add 0.1 per year, 0.20 per year. And in some cases like to your point, and so like that's to the end of five years, you would've gone from a six to a seven. And in some markets, yeah, we'll be, you know, if we're going to be doing a 0.15 in a certain market and we're like, well, maybe this market isn't quite as attractive or in the past it hasn't performed quite as well, we might do the 0.20. At the end of the day, I mean, as you know, nobody knows what the cap rates going to do. We can all guess. And the important thing to consider is that you know, the cap rate has no impact on your cash flow per se. It's really more of a capital event like a refi or a sale, things like that. So if you can still cash flow and you know, get good returns, then you know, you wait to sell when it makes more sense to sell.

James: Correct. What about a loan wise? Have you guys been doing a longterm agency debt or you've been doing some short term loans as well?

Mark: We do about a third of the deals we do prior bridge, but not necessarily short term is still up to five years. So it's not short term really. And the rates are attractive and there's, you know, a lot of advantages too. Bridge and some disadvantages, but there are a lot of advantages. I like them, especially in the big value add deals from what you have to get them. And then we do Fannie, Freddie, and then a number of bridge frankly.

James: Got it. Got it, got it. So I mean, you work with a lot of you know, students who are trying to come up in this industry, right? So can you describe one characteristic of a student who made them really successful you know, sponsor on their own?

Mark: Okay. Characteristic is, I mean, you know, if you want to say grit, not giving up, but as far as a whole, it's getting really good at something that really, you know, one skill set. You don't have to know everything about multifamily necessarily to get started. You have other people there to help you. But getting really good at something that's a value to somebody else. And it sounds like, okay, that's kind of obvious. Well, we've seen it work time and time again where someone, all they do is pretty much come in and just find deals. That's where the specialty is. They don't want to raise money or sign the loan or know things like that. But I think it's being patient, you know, when you have to wait a year, potentially. I waited a year to get my first deal. That's a long time, you know, to wait. And then you look back on it, it's like, that's not a long time to wait when you started buying more deals or you're like trying to do something new and you're spreading, you know, 12 months before you get a deal that can be frustrating. So just being patient.

James: Yeah. Especially when people are already committed, I'm going to do this.

Mark: Yeah, some people give something up to do it.

James: Yeah. I mean, I really just remember there's not much deals out there. So, you know, finding that one deal that makes sense takes time. Right. It's not easy, If it was easy, everybody would do it.

Mark: That's right. That's right. Okay.

James: So coming back to your personal side of it. I mean, is there any proud moment in your life that you think I would remember that moment? That one particular moment in your experience in your real estate venture?

Mark: Yeah. That's a great question actually. I would say when I got that third deal and it closed because I had already decided if I close that deal, I was going to stop doing IT. So when I got that third deal and said, Hey...my son kept asking me cause I kept looking for deals when he's like, if you get that deal, can you stop doing IT? Cause he was seeing me work so much. And so when I got that that was huge for me, for my family.

James: Got it. That was a transition point of view, getting away from IT to real estate, I guess.

Mark: Right, right. And making the decision, like you said, to do it full time.

James: Yeah. It's a hard decision, especially if you're already used to a certain industry. And what has been, you know, paying your bills, right.

Mark: Paying your bills, which is great. And you know, the other thing, unfortunately, when I was doing IT, that was kind of my self-worth. That's where I got my value. I wasn't really good at a lot of things, but for some reason, my mind just worked that way. And so I got my self-worth out of my job. So to give that up, you know, it is a big thing. And you don't know how successful you're going to be or not in your new adventure. So, but I mean, the best decision I ever made.

James: Yeah. I mean, you brought up a good point. Sometimes that whole industry, what you study for, define you 20, 30 years in your life and suddenly, you are changing your complete identity. I mean, it's a big thing, right? I mean, a lot of people do not want to do that. If they're known as engineer or a CPA or the IT guy, they don't want to know, what! Suddenly this guy's doing real estate.

Mark: Oh yeah. I mean, my CPA said, what are you doing? He did. Now he doesn't say it anymore. He did. He said, what are you doing? You're making a lot of money doing IT, why are you not doing it anymore? I mean, you know, he couldn't even comprehend it.

James: Yeah. And I have to mention this; when I was in IT, when I was an engineer, you know, I always think that people in IT, people who are engineers are really smart guys. So these are the smartest guys because that's what your circle is, right? Your circle of friends is there. You think this guy's smart solving problems. And I mean, I did my MBA, it was really eye-opening because I realized there are a lot smarter guys than me with a lot more money in the financial industry. So that was a big aha moment. And that's where I realized that you know, you have to go into business to make a lot more money. And there are a lot of other smarter guys in other smarter professions out there that make a lot more money. And so, I mean, before I forget what is the most valuable value add that you've seen in all your deals? What would you do in case your rehab budget got cut into half in a deal?

Mark: Oh, you mean from a CAPEX?

James: Capex wise, yes.

Mark: You know, one, people need to be...if the property looks like junk outside...I've been in properties that look good on the outside and they're not that great on the inside. But you need something outside to kind of attract you. And it could just be paint, you know, something so it's not dreary and dark, dark colors, you know, but using something a little bit more attractive color-wise for paint. Landscaping, simple stuff to do. It's basically thinking about what does a tenant see? When people say I'm going to do, you know, electrical work and you know, things like that. It's like the plumbing, stuff like that need to be done, but tenants don't see that. So first start with the outside and see what the tenants, you know, whether they go up to the office and it's kind of decked out.

Sometimes we'll spend a lot of money around the office to kind of put a lot of landscape in there and make it really nice, exterior wise. Interior, I mean, paint, it's pretty easy to do. Flooring is huge just from a maintenance standpoint. So if you can do it, but as you know, it's not that cheap to do floor and then we'll like resurface countertops. I wouldn't do cabinets and stuff like that if you don't have the budget for it. I wouldn't do appliances unless they need them. You're not going to get the bang for the buck for that. Again, people will see paint, they'll see flooring and they'll see like maybe surface countertops, paint the cabinets, things like that. But some people have really high aspirations. They want to do all these things, but at the end of the day, you're not living in the property so don't outdo the market. I won't be the first guy to prove something in a market, I let other people prove it first. But I would say for sure start with the outside. We start like with landscaping and paint, stuff like that. People can see that.

James: Got it, got it. Awesome. Mark. So we're at the end of the podcast. Do you want to tell our audience and listeners how to get hold of you?

Mark: Yes. An email address is [email protected] and love the chat with anybody and I really, really appreciate you spending time with me today, James.

James: Sure, sure. Absolutely. Thanks for coming over. You had a lot of value. And I really like going across markets here because sometimes it's hard to find someone who has done deals in different markets, right. Because it's important. A lot of people want to do markets everywhere. I mean, there are deals everywhere so you just have to buy it right and you have to analyze it right. And, you know, just make sure the numbers work and the location works. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you, Mark.

Mark: All right, James. Appreciate your time.

James: Absolutely. Thank you. Bye.

James: Hi, audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth, True Value at Real Estate Investing podcast. Today I have KK Singh, KK Singh is a big figure in our social media circles, especially in the multifamily and multi-families syndication. KK used to be a Microsoft Certified System Engineer. I like to call it MCSE because it's a pretty well known designation for system engineers and the Microsoft world; and KK also owns multiple businesses including gas station convenience stores, a Laundromat, and also he started a real estate with a 40 single family residential in Indiana. And currently he's an investor in almost 3000 units as a LP, and in some of it is a GP across all States in the US. And he also has done agriculture, commercial and residential property in India. And also, business experience, almost 10 to 19 years in the US, and is also looking for expansion opportunity. Hey KK, welcome to the show.

KK: Hello. Thank you very much James for having me on your show.

James: Sure, absolutely. Absolutely. So, KK let's get started with our show. I mean I got to know you like almost two years now. So you have been doing very well in terms of multifamily investing and especially you started as a passive and now you're going more into the GPU, but I want to go before that. So you are on a later part of your cycle and you did a lot of different businesses, Laundromat and gas station convenience stores. And so I want to go into that business before we go into multifamily. And then after that I want to compare that business to multifamily. And why did you, at this stage of your life, why did you want to do multifamily? Because there's a lot of people who want to really learn these different businesses.

Like I always wonder how gas stations work. I always wonder how convenience stores work. How does a Laundromat work? And do they really make more money than what I'm doing right now in multifamily? So you are the best person to really tell us and our audience what are the different aspects of this business. So let's start with, I mean, you own gas station convenience store and Laundromat. So tell us about these three businesses. I mean, how does the business work? How much do people make? Even in that business, what are the values that you always see that it's very awful?

KK:

Well, I came to United States, as you said, Microsoft Certified System Engineer and I lost my job after 9/11. And it was just about six months before I came. So I had a job for about six months and I lost my job and my friends were in the gas station business in Indianapolis and they offered me a partnership in the business and they asked me to come and join their business. And so I decided, since I had no options, I decided to join their business as a partner. It was a gas station in Indianapolis. So I started managing that, I automated there, put it up because everything they were doing on papers with pen and paper. So I was a computer professional, so I did everything into computers. And soon we lost the lease because the owner did not renew the lease on that property. So I had learned the business because I had it for about a year. So I bought a gas station here in Fort Wayne after about a year and a half since I came to United States.

James:

So, before we go to the other business, how does a gas station make money?

KK: Well, the gas station owners make money mostly on the inside sales. They don't make money on the gas.

James: Oh, you don't make money on the gas?

KK: But you don't make money on the gas. And most of the money is made on the convenience store side. So, first I bought one gas station and soon I had other people join me buying gas stations. Here I was, the first Punjabi to buy a gas station here in Fort Wayne. And soon I brought some of my friends, my relatives to buy gas stations here. So we formed a group and we started buying in bulk. And that way we made more money, we got more rebates; we got more kickbacks since we were buying in bulk.

James: So the rebate and discounts that you get that's on the fuel price?

KK: No, on the inside sales, mostly on the...

James:

On the inside sale?

KK:

Yeah.

James:

So, why does every gas station have different pricing in terms of fuel?

KK: Because you have the right to price your own gas, whatever you want to. Some people like to make 5 cents; some people like to make 3 cents. Some people like to lose money on gas.

James: So, I mean we are always wondering, I mean I'm sure I thought every gas station owner was trying to make some profit because every gas station has different pricing. So do they try to take it back on making more money by increasing the gas price slightly? I'm sure there's elasticity in terms of customer demand versus the gas price.

KK: Well the street price is who rules the gas prices, the street pricing. So some people like to bring the customers in by losing money on the gas.

James:

Oh.

KK:

Or making less profit on the gas and they want to bring the customers to their lot and then bring them inside to the convenience store where they can make 35% instead of pennies.

James: Interesting. I thought there will be some money being made on the gas, but looks like what you're saying is it was so little money, you may not make money or you lose money...

KK: I've lost more money because 90% people these days use credit cards. And then on top of that, you end up paying credit card fee as well.

James: Oh, so you have to pay, but is the price inside of convenience store slightly higher than what you get from Walmart or Walgreens or CVS?

KK: Yes. Yes. That's why they're called convenience stores because they are for convenience. But, yeah. So it's like they have to pay for the convenience.

James: Yeah. Which makes sense, I mean, I'm giving you space and the gas for almost all on my costs. Right. And now you come and pay a bit more on the convenience of, probably people don't care because it's convenient for them. That's absolutely right. That makes a lot of sense now because I always wondered this. So, is the gas station business being impacted with some of the electric costs that's being popular nowadays?

KK: Well, we never made money on the gas anyways, so I don't think it's going to affect the people still going to buy their food and drinks and chips and candy and the cigarettes. So they do still come. I own an electric car myself but still, I stop at gas stations to...

James:

Buy things

KK:

Buy coffee, buy candy, and buy something.

James: I think the location of it is much more convenient. I think that's how like even Buc-ee's, I'm not sure whether you know Buc-ee's in Texas they're very big. They have a lot of gas stations, like hundred gas stations outside and it's a big convenience store.

KK: Yup. Yup.

James: Okay. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. So it's like a big, slightly more expensive because it's very convenient.

KK:

Correct.

James:

Okay. So what about a Laundromat, how does that work?

KK: Well, I had this lot sitting by my gas station for a long time. It was a vacant lot and I thought of buying it and utilizing it and this neighbourhood needed a Laundromat. There was a little lot like a block away from my gas station. There was a Laundromat, which were the old beaten up Laundromat, it had like 20 years old machines. So I thought that I can utilize this property and I did some creativity and bank that lot at a very low price. And I built a Laundromat from ground up with the best machines that they come, bigger machines. So immediately after I opened that Laundromat, the other one closed because it was all, nobody wanted to go there. So, and Laundromat is a good business too because you don't need the employees, so it's unattended. So I have a girl that comes in the evening and cleans up and somebody will go from the gas station and clean up or if there's any problems. So this is kind of a passive income.

James: So you still have the Laundromat until now?

KK: Yes, I do. And we are building another one.

James: Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. So is this the machine with a speed queen?

KK: No, [10:00 unclear] machines.

James:

[10:02 unclear], okay. Okay.

KK: We have bigger machines, like 90 pounders, 60 pounders, 50 pounders. Yeah.

James: I mean, the reason I ask about speed queen, because in my properties, I'd probably own a Laundromat as well, but indirectly, right, in all our apartments, I think 90% of our apartments, we own our own machines. So, we like to buy new machines, but this is for residential. So it may not be...

KK: [10:28 Inaudible] is good too.

James:

Okay. Okay.

KK:

But that store is good for Laundromat, commercial and it's very simple to operate, and it's a sturdy machine as well.

James: Got it. And have you ever tried to sell these gas stations and the Laundromat?

KK: No.

James: Okay. So you're keeping it for passive income?

KK: I have a system in place and they are an automatic, autopilot, I mean. So, because I have partners in all my gas stations, they run the gas stations and I stay home.

James: Okay, good. That's true passive income right.

KK:

Yeah.

James:

Now, the reason I asked you whether you sold is because I want to know how this business is being valued.

KK: No, I haven't never sold any gas station. I have always bought gas station, and I would still buy a gas station if I get a good deal.

James: So if it's passive income, why not you buy nationwide?

KK: No, it's not passive income, it's not. It's passive income for me because I have my friends and family as partners who run the businesses for me. It's not passive income and I don't, people call me all the time and ask me if they can buy a gas station and rent it out and make more money than single family or real estate, no, it's not like that.

James: So it's not as a, what I'm trying to say I guess is...

KK:

It's not at all passive. It's just autopilot for me because I've done this for so many years and I have brought in partners and some of them are even my employees that I have partnered with.

James: So they are the one who is active and you are investing money and for you it's passive. So it's not really passive income, but because you are a silent partner, you get passive income, I guess.

KK:

Right. Correct.

James:

So after that, how did you buy 40 single family residential?

KK: Well. the seller was from our community, he met me at the church and he said, I want to sell my property that he had for several years. And I told him that I know somebody in Indianapolis that I can refer to. And he said, no, I want to sell them to you. And I said, no, I have never done this and I'm not going to get into the rental business, toilet and all that kind of stuff. He said, I will give you a good deal and I will teach you for a year how to do it. So that attracted me and I came home and talked to my nephew and at that time I didn't even know about [13:10inaudible] it is.

So, I talked to my nephew, we calculated, we didn't get any financials or anything from him and we were comparing, I went online to the city website and check the prices compared to what he was offering us. So I liked the pricing of everything. I said, yes, the very next day I said, yes, we will buy your houses. And we went ahead and bought, we never hired an attorney. We just wrote up purchase agreement on my computer and we bought those 40 single family houses and then he started helping me. But he had done this for about 40 years now. So, but he was all old school, everything was on pen and paper. I didn't like that idea. So I had a lot of other stuff going on. I said, no, I would do it myself. So I bought some books, I went online, did some research and started managing myself and I still manage those 40 single families myself.

James: That's a very inspiring story, right? Because where you going from zero to nothing, I mean to learning about how to operate 40 single family residential. So how did you learn to make that business in single family residential from the guy who's selling you, he's old school? So now you are a Microsoft certified system engineer. You are going to think on how to put everything into computer. What was the first website or resource that you used to start managing this 40 single family residential?

KK: Well, first of all, I started researching about the property management software and I did some research on the property management softwares and I found [15:06unclear].com the best software for my purpose. And the pricing was good, the features were good. And I signed up for a demo, I took a demo and liked it and I moved all my properties to [15:21unclear]

James: I used [15:23unclear] as well for my single family residential, even though I only own like two right now, but we went through a few iteration of property management software for single family and then settled on [15:33unclear], which is pretty good for the single family and [15:38inaudible] management.

KK: Correct. Correct.

James: So you are in Indiana? So have you ever thought about looking other places for real estate or you wanted to do that?

KK: No, I do my multifamily almost, I have one in Indianapolis and all others are out of Indiana.

James: Got it. Got it.

KK: So, right now I'm doing the 10th view as a general partner and I did seven deals as a passive investor. So all of them but one is in Indiana and all of them are out of Indiana.

James: Okay. So I want to go to that transition where you were doing Laundromat, gas station and 40 single family residential, so, how did you get introduced to multifamily apartments?

KK: Well, when I bought these single family houses and I went online to, I started researching on bigger pockets and read some books and I realized that it's not scalable and especially there's no tax advantage. That's why we bought these properties. We thought, oh, we can save money on tax. Because we were paying a lot of tax, we had a lot of cash-flow from the gas stations, so we were paying a lot of tax. But with buying single family, we ended up paying more tax because we made more money. So, I thought, no, we were here to save on taxes, so this is not the way to do it. So I started researching and finally as I learned about the syndication process and cost segregation, how people save money on the tax. So we started and I actually started investing passively and never thought I'm going to be active investor at that time because I had so much going on and I have like 15 companies. So, I thought, okay, I will keep doing it. But I'll keep investing my passively and get K-one losses and wash off other passive incomes. That's was my original plan, but when I started learning about multifamily and I learned that I have so much passion about multi-families, so why not do it actively?

James: Yeah, no. So I want to go through the thought process here. So, what year was it that you discovered multifamily?

KK:

2015.

James:

2015, which is like what? Four years ago.

KK:

Yeah. Four years ago.

James:

And you say syndication, right? So even when you introduced to multifamily, did you look at buying a multifamily without syndication?

KK: Yes, we did. We did four times.

James: So you did buy some multifamily without syndication?

KK: No, we didn't buy any.

James:

Oh you didn't...

KK:

Because we were thinking of buying the same way we bought these houses.

James:

Got it.

KK:

So we didn't even know how to do underwriting, how to calculate the profit and loss. So we thought, okay, we bought these houses for so much and these are like just two room, one bedroom apartments so this should be half the price of the houses. That's how we started and we offered four alloys. First we started with the 32 unit and we went all the way to 96 units to buy, but every time we were overbid by others and we didn't know that we have to do underwriting and all that stuff that I realized after giving four alloys that we, no, this is not the way to do it. We need to start underwriting and they are not priced as the houses are, they are priced based on the net operating income. Then I started learning all that in 2015, and as I was learning, I was investing passively as well.

James: Got it, got it.

KK:

I still kept investing and a couple of my partners started investing along with me too. So, we invested all over the nation in first three years, 15, 16, 17, and in 18 I decided to go at it.

James: Why you didn't from single family, you were thinking of buying the large multifamily, which is like 40, 50, no, 90 units, right? Why you didn't look at duplexes, triplexes and fourplexes.

KK: Oh, I taught duplex, triplex is the same thing as single family because we had the money, we had the resources, we could get the loan, we had the network, so we thought we can buy 30, 40 units. We never thought of buying smaller properties.

James: Okay, so you wanted to go big because you think you can do it. It's just that you didn't have the knowledge on how do people underwrite this commercial properties?

KK: And that I learned, that I learned soon after being overburdened, four of those alloy's that we did present. So I decided to learn and then I learned a lot and I attended several boot camps and took some courses, read a lot of books, listened to a lot of podcasts. So actually I had a passion for it. So I was spending like five, six hours a day, maybe even more, maybe eight hours a day. Just learning about multifamily. For six months, I never slept before midnight for six months.

James: For six months you didn't sleep before midnight because you were so wowed with this multifamily.

KK: Yes. That's when I was learning about it, listening to podcast, every night I would listen to podcasts, read something about it, so I spent a lot of time learning this process

James: And you said multifamily was more interesting compared to buying more gas station, Laundromat and the single family because of the tax advantage. That's what you're saying. So you need something to offset your passive business, I mean, active business income, I guess.

KK: Well, I had a lot of passive income as well. Because I was not active in all the gas stations. I was passive in some gas stations and we own real states of several gas stations, and those LLC owned properties. And so our operating companies were paying rent to the real estate company. So that was my passive income as well.

James: Oh. That's an interesting strategy there. So why not buy like a strip mall or warehouse or industrial warehouse or South storage?

KK: I don't like anything else but multifamily.

James: Why? Did you look at that [22:30inaudible]?

KK: Yes, I did look at it; it's on my criteria as well. The second think I would ever buy would be storing units or the mobile park, but I would never go to commercial or anything because I know people need at least a roof to live somewhere.

James: Okay, got it. So you think there's a definite need for a residential?

KK: Yeah, because of the technology, you never know. Did you see the strip malls, commercial buildings closing industries, moving to Mexico, China, India and all those countries? But they can't move apartments to China.

James: That's right. That's right.

KK: But they have to live here. So, that's the only, I get a lot of other offers, but I am very, very strictly multifamily person.

James: Yeah. Yeah. So let me give you some education to the listeners. So, what KK was talking about is the tax advantage that you get in multifamily, especially with something called depreciation, which is a paper loss which offset, which shows your income. Even though you're making cash-flow from a positive cash-flow from your operation in apartments depreciation is going to be more, most of the time it's going to be more than your cash-flow, which means you are, it shows as you're losing money, which means you probably don't pay any tax on your cash-flow; and sometimes net cash flow minus depreciation do come out positive, but the amount will be low because now you have depreciation. And in single family residential houses, you still do have depreciation, but it's divided by 27.5. But in commercial, which is apartment, you've either been doing divide by 27.5, you can still do 27.5 but you can also do something called cost segregation, which means they segregate each part of the building and commercial into five years, seven years, 15 years and 27.5 years?

They separate the windows to seven years. I don't know what exactly the schedule is, but example windows took seven years, the driveway took 15 years. Frauding took five years. And what they do is they save all this 15 years for all five years, everything is segregated. And all this depreciation is accelerated in the first five to seven years and 15 years. And even the first five years it's like 30% of total depreciation. So, the number of, the amount of depreciation you get in apartments is like, it can be huge because of this cost segregation. And now with the tax law that we have in 2017 from 2017-2023 you have something called bonus depreciation, which means you are going to take all the 15 years schedule of depreciation, you're going to depreciate it in the first year, which used to be only available for new development. Which makes sense, new developments; everything done you'd appreciate 15 years into it. But now the new tax law have given leverage for the properties that has already been built. But this advantage only available until 2023 and after that it starts reducing to 50% instead of a hundred percent depreciation become 50% and depreciates less, and in other commercial real estate, like strip centre and warehouses and all that, is not depreciated by 27.5, it's depreciated by 39 years. So you can...

James: 39 and a half?

KK:

Come again.

James: 39 and a half.

KK:

39 and a half. Okay. Thanks for clarifying, I thought it's 39. So 39 and a half, and what happened is you get much lower depreciation, they can do also cost segregation, but you know, you're going to get less number. And it makes perfect sense for farmers because of the Maslow hierarchy of needs as well. Everybody needs a shelter to stay. And especially because of those appliances they have, the kitchens, the counters, kitchens, fridge, the microwave and the stove, those things get depreciated in the very first five years. And you can get all that in the very first year.

James: Yes, yes, correct. Correct. So that's an awesome tax strategy in apartment and that's what we call this multifamily apartment. So let's go ahead. So, you said you started learning how to value the apartment and at 2015 you learned the trick about how to trade. So, why not at that time you go and buy apartments, why did you go passive?

KK: Well, at that time I was still managing the Laundromat and one gas station myself. And after about two years in 2017, my son-in-law, my daughter got married in 2015 and her husband came to United States in 2017. I asked him, he was a competitive engineer too, I asked him what he wants to do and he said I want to be in the business. He owned a gas station in Canada as well. So he migrated from Canada. So he started doing what I was doing. So, I was only managing these 40 single family houses and most of my stuff was on autopilot, so I had nothing else to do. I decided to go active. So that's when I started looking to do syndication myself.

James: Okay. No, but my question was, like I mean after you learn all the tricks on how to underwrite multifamily, right, why did you still go with a passive investment

KK: That's why, because I was busy managing my gas station, single family houses and Laundromat myself.

James:

Oh. So, now your son-in-law is taking care of that, now you, okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. Now you have all the time to really be an active sponsor, I guess.

KK:

Correct.

James:

So, okay. Okay. How did you make that transition from being a passive to active? Because that's a day and night skills.

KK: And you should know that too because you are sitting on this side right hand side and Jeff Green well he was sitting on my left hand side and San Diego mastermind.

James:

Oh, I must have influenced you.

KK:

Yeah. Something came, I pulled some of your power and Jeff offered me to be a general partner on his deal.

James:

That must be my [29:08inaudible]

KK:

Yeah. So I said, okay, I will be your general partner. I raised money for his deal to close. So that was my first transition and I was so much motivated by meeting all those people that like the mastermind in San Diego last March when I did the deal.

James: Yeah. That's very interesting. Sometimes this mastermind brings, the proximity is power. You have people who are doing it and you know that you can do it if you have the right support. And sometimes, certain words and certain discussions can motivate you to progress. So it's very, very powerful concept of mastermind. Sometimes people thinks that you go from mastermind, you are wasting time. You're talking but there are always influencers, especially in a small setting compared to going into like this large conferences where you go and just network, right. This is not so contagious, but in a small group setting, it can be contagious and that's good, so you are able to, yeah, I know when we were in the mastermind we were talking about, you are passive and I didn't know that was the time that you were transitioning. You decided to transition from GP.

KK: That same day I did it and he emailed me all the information and when I was coming from San Diego, I was looking at the costar report, underwriting and everything on the plane from San Diego to Chicago all night.

James:

I have to give credit to myself too.

KK: Yeah. The credit goes to you too.

James: That's good. That's good. I hope so. I mean, I'm sure you would have some calling to or for you as well. But I've been, I'm happy to help out as well. So, KK, what was your discovery when you, from a passive investor, I mean, you were of before, let's assume that mastermind was a transition period. At that point before that you were a passive investor, your mindset is completely different. You just want to invest passively. You didn't want to do any active role, maybe its fun, it's interesting, but you just didn't want to do it. But once you step over into the GP side where you partner with another sponsor. So how do you think your mindset has changed from passive to become an active?

KK: Well, my mindset changed back in 2017 because I had learned so much. I was thinking, why don't I put all this knowledge to work? Why I am just investing passively. But as I told you that when he took over, so I was completely free. And I stayed home and there was not much, and I have so much of my single family management on autopilot that I spend about nine hours a week. So I had nothing else to do, and I decided to move on to, and I started looking on deals before my mastermind, I did start looking deals and I did some [32:19inaudible] the properties and I did give some alloys as well, and I learned the business practically by doing it. And then it was, I think a miracle happened when you did something at the mastermind that I got a deal.

And I also learned that it is teamwork. It's not something that I can do myself. It is teamwork. So I think that was a great opportunity for me when Jeff offered me that deal and they were in, they were very close to the closing. So, I raised the money in about three days and became a member of his asset management team where I learned a lot as well. And after that I did a one deal with Radcliff and Robert in Lexington, Kentucky in May, we closed that in May and now I'm a general partner on a deal with Viking Capital on a 92 unit, a B class asset in Marietta, Georgia, North of Atlanta.

James: Got it. So let's assume KK, so now you have moved to become more on the active side, right? Part of the asset management team. So if I split you into two, your best friend is your older, KK Singh as the passive investor and now is the right one. The right side, KK is the active investor, what would you turn to your passive investor, best friend and say what are the advice that you want to give to your KK Singh a passive investor on how to invest smartly as a passive investor? Since now you know both sides.

KK: Well, even when I was a passively investing, I was learning continuously because the very first deal I didn't know much about multifamily. So I just invested to see how it works. So I just wrote a check to Ivan Barrett for 50,000 and I invested in his deal in Dayton, Ohio, but after that I realized that I need to learn about the passive as well. And I like reading a lot, listening, and reading and so I started learning how to invest passively and I prepared a list of like 42 questions, which I was asking. And then I started investing with Joe [34:53inaudible] in his deals in Dallas and I didn't want to put all eggs in the same basket. So I tried some other syndicators other markets as well before I finally decided to go active.

James: Got it. So, out of that 40 questions that you have in your passive investor checklist, and don't worry, I'm not going to ask you to do all the 40 questions, but is there any like five to 10 questions you think all passive investors should ask before investing in any deals?

James: I think the most important thing is in this all the syndication process is the operator. So I always even tell my investors the same thing that I did myself. I always looked at the operator. Who is the operator? Who is their team? Do they have an office? Do they have a complete set up? And then do they have a track record? Have they gone through a full cycle? So I always look at that first, even as a passive investor, even as a general partner, I do the same thing; and the second thing is the market. What market is the property in? So does that property market have a rent growth, continuous rent growth? Does that market have a continuous population growth? Are the companies moving to that area? Is it a bigger like population over 200,000?

I don't invest in smaller cities. So those are the second things, and then I move onto the property. Is it really a value added property? Every property sale, value add property, sometimes there's no value at all or there is no rent growth. I have seen like people wrote, right, 300 rent bump. Do you think the previous owner was dumb? So he was $300 below market. It doesn't happen all the time. So I prepared a list of questions. I learned how to do all the comps, sales comps, rent comps, and I do get my investor do the same thing as well.

James: Got it. So what you're talking about is operators, the second is the market, third is the deal, which is absolutely the right priority. So let's say for a new passive investor, how do they find about, before we go there, can you define what's an operator is?

KK: Well operator is the guy who finds a deal, brings it under contract, signs the loan or brings the team together, or if they already have the team, and then after the closing they operate, they make sure they are performing as for performer, the property management in place is working, doing a good job. And they are giving the reports quarterly or monthly, whatever information to the investors and also paying the investors as promised.

James: So how can a passive investor know about the operator? I mean, without asking the operator directly because sometimes it's hard to know. I mean, as I say, a new passive investor comes, sometimes they are very shy to ask a lot of questions because they are worried that they will not get into the deal. But is there any other way that a new passive investor can find out about the operator without asking the operator directly?

KK: Well, they shouldn't be shy. I even asked the operator if you die, I go that far, if you die.

James:

Absolutely.

KK:

Yeah. I mean, I don't mind if somebody asks me if you die, where are we going to ask for our [38:57inaudible] or money? I mean, it's obvious if somebody could die in a second. Yeah. So there has to be some things in place that if somebody dies who's going to take care of. So I think that should be and I have uploaded those 42 questions on my Tenex Facebook group several times and Radcliff has those 42 questions on his website. I think passive investors should download there as well. But I can tell you how people find me. They follow me everywhere on social media. They check my profiles and they listen to my podcast and then they approach me, oh we know you for a year or two; I saw your video live or podcast. So they probably know everything before they come and contact me unless they are referred to me by someone who is already in my investor or my friend. So they trust me too.

James: Yeah, I mean that's true. I mean once you are...

KK: I'm very active on social media so people know what I do.

James: Yes, yes, yes. Correct. Correct. Correct. So what about market? Can you tell the audience, especially passive investor, any specific resources they can go and see before investing in the market? I mean, I know you said you do not want smaller cities, you want big cities, but what else they should look for in a market before they even invest even passively?

James: Well they should, first of all, we talked about the operator and then the market research is very important. They should look at there are so much free services available, ctdata is one of them.

James: ctdata.net?

KK: ctdata.com

James:

dot com, okay.

KK:

Dot com and they can go there at least or just write down population and there will be a population of so and so city. They'll get so much information and there's another world review website that it will automatically pop up under the CTdata and you can go there, research the market, sub-market and even the neighborhood.

James: So have you seen any deals that was presented to you as a, I mean when you are a passive investor, when you presented to you that you think are this guy, he didn't underwrite the deal as conservatively as he is claiming. I mean, everybody claims their underwriting yes.

KK: All the time. Right. All the time.

James: It's like a value add. Right. All deals are value add. Same thing, all lead sponsors, all our sponsors are saying all their deals are written conservatively, they fill up quickly.

KK:

Some people are very smart to write their OMs and they'll write it in such a way that a passive investor who's not very literate about the multifamily. And if they don't have time to do their own research, they can fall in that net very easily because they are written so smartly. So they don't understand. And they don't spend much time either.

James: Yeah. But how do you, can you give us a few example where you were able to cut some, I would say...

KK: The biggest one is the comps.

James: It's the comps. Okay.

KK: And the second thing is the rent growth. Sometimes they'll write 3% rent growth and they will say, oh, it's very conservatively written. And I have been managing these houses since 2014 I have never seen 3% going up every year. I mean there has to be some year when it's going to be down, it might go up to 3% again, but all five or seven years or 10 years, whatever the whole time is. They don't go up all the time. And another thing is the vacancy. A lot of times they will write the vacancy or we can, we're going to have it 95% occupied, but when you look at the four star report or others resources, the market occupancy is at 90%. So how can you do it 95% if the market is at 90%? So some of those assumptions they make are sometimes very aggressive.

James: So you say rent comp, and use also talked about the comps? So you're talking about the rent comp that they are projecting?

KK: Rent comps, rent comps, they are projecting this and sometimes I've seen on the OMs, they are not comparing apples to apples. They're comparing one bedroom to three bedrooms and then they'll say, oh, there is a threat, $315 rent bump. You're not comparing apples to apples.

James: Do you think they make a mistake or they just...?

KK: They intentionally do it and nobody can challenge that either because they don't, they say nothing there that it is three bedroom compared to one bedroom. So that OM doesn't say that we are comparing one bedroom. It's just going to say that apartment has this rent and this apartment has this rent. And they'll show you that there is a $300 bump which is not true. So far, I never seen a bump more than $150.

James: And even 150 is difficult to get, so yeah

KK: No more than $150. I have seen up to $150 which is also, as you said, by renovating, adding like $500, $600 to the unit, you might be able to raise the rent by a hundred or $150 maximum.

James: Very interesting. So was there any aha moment as a active sponsor, as active person, more on the GP side now that you think like in the past six to eight months that you think, oh, I've learned something new about multifamily. Can you share it with the audience?

KK: I always learn every day, every day I get some new experiences. I learned new things from sometimes even from people who know nothing about multifamily, but sometimes they teach you with, and I am very motivational and I'm motivated myself. I try to motivate my members in my Tenex group as well. Like every day you learn, in this business, every day you learn some thing new.

James: So, I mean, so you had been pretty successful in investing into multifamily and now you're going more into the GP, so what do you think is the most I would say secret sauce to your success?

KK: First of all, and I would also suggest to your audience, which I didn't do, but I didn't have to pay the price, but somebody might end up paying the price. I would say invest in yourself, that means learn the process yourself before you invest in any real estate, it could be single family, multifamily, any kind of real estate, do your homework first and don't be scared to spend some money on yourself, your personal development and learning and boot camps. Those are really helpful and I will, when I started learning at bigger progress, bigger progress always said that you don't have to have a coach, you don't have to attend any boot camps and everything. But when I got out of that mindset, I said, no, I got to go checkout some boot camps. It doesn't matter if I have to spend some money. And I realized that I learned a lot, I got motivated a lot. And also when I was holding myself accountable to do something. So, it's before that it was flow free flow. So, whatever I could do, if I got a deal, I would go ahead and make an appointment. Go look at that deal and end up there. But I think these things help, these Facebook groups, these masterminds, these boot camps, there are all these real estate, multifamily events, all of them help.

James: Got it. So it helps in terms of giving you some guidance to move ahead or give you some motivation or how does, or give you some knowledge?

KK: So, as long as you have knowledge, you feel very comfortable doing something.

James:

Got it.

KK:

If you get out of your comfort zone and have knowledge and once you have the knowledge, you feel very comfortable doing anything. If you don't have knowledge, you always in fear, you get scared, or what if I do this? What if I can't raise the money? What if I, so there's lot of questions. Once you have the knowledge, you know that you will be able to do this. If you have a good deal, the money will come. And I hear a lot of people saying they're on Facebook as well, that a lot of people say that if you have a deal, money will come. We have a deal, but we can't raise the money. So that means something is wrong with your deal.

James:

Especially on this market cycle, where there's a lot of capital chasing the small number of deals, the true deals, I mean there are a lot of deals, but most deals are 98% of the deals doesn't really underwrite well as what it used to be.

KK: I was looking at underwriting yesterday, this property had since 2015, the occupancy is 60,000 and all of a sudden now it's on sale it's at 90%. I looked at the costar report. I said what? Within the last three months, it went up to from 60% to 90%.

James: Hey, hold on, hold on, hold on.

KK: Okay. I looked at this deal yesterday and since 2015 I looked at the CoStar report and since 2015 the occupancy was at 60% and then the last four months it went from 60% to 90% because now it's on sale.

James: On sale. Yeah, correct. Correct. You have to be very, very careful about these kinds of deals. I mean, unless it's an experienced operator, you are ready to go and turn it around; otherwise it's just going to be difficult to once you take over.

KK:

And I think they already offered a little bit more money, but now the broker wants them to raise their price. I said, don't even raise a penny. Whatever you have offered is already on the higher side, but a lot of times they want that kind of money and they can get, because somebody else will pay. And I told this guy that somebody else will pay more, but they're going to be in trouble.

James: Correct. Correct. Right. I mean, market is saving a lot of people out there right now. Right. People have all paid in bills and made a lot of mistakes in the underwriting. But market has been saving a lot of them for the past nine years. I mean, a rising tide raises all ships, so it's okay to make mistakes now, but it may not be okay when the market turns. Because now you'll see who is in trouble once the tide comes down. So, you have to be very, very careful right now

KK: The market is at such speed now, tending to slow down. So it, people should be very careful and they should do their sensitivity analysis as well. Do the stress testing on their deals to make sure that they will survive if the market sort turns a little bit.

James: So KK, can you, is there any proud moment in your life, in your business life that you think you cannot forget? That's going to be that if you really think you know, the next 10 years, one proud moment that you think that you always really proud that you did something.

KK: I think I have been always proud of what I did because I do my homework before I do anything. I've spent a lot of time researching when I built a Laundromat. I had spent about a year the same way and I am very proud that I spent that time and I'm making a lot of money on that Laundromat and it's a very successful business.

James: So you do, I mean, you're proud that you're doing a lot of research before you entering into a new venture. So...

KK:

Correct, correct.

James:

And if you want to let our audience know how to find you

KK: Oh, I am very easy to find. They can go to Facebook and I have a Facebook group, Tenex multifamily investment group, and we have a little over 3000 members in about six months. I think we started the group at the same time.

James: Yeah. You started late but you are slightly ahead of our group right now.

KK: Yeah. And that's where they can find me. They can ask me questions and every Tuesday I have a zoom calls where they can come and join us and learn something, network. And they can ask me questions as well face to face, every Tuesday, nine o'clock Eastern time. And the zoom link is always in the Tenex Facebook group and then they can reach me through our website as well growrichcapital.com, or they can call me on my cell phone, 260-341-1964.

James: All right, sounds good. So KK thanks for coming for the show. You add a lot of value. I like to, I mean I think I really found a lot of nuggets because you moved from different, different businesses to multifamily. I think that was very helpful because a lot of listeners could be doing other businesses and always wonder why not that business, why not this business? Right. And then why multifamily? So you, I think you summarize it pretty well and I think you, I think I did get a golden nugget of a few golden nugget when you move from passive to active, right? And how that transition worked out and your thought process when you go to that whole process. So appreciate you coming on board. Thanks for coming and that's it.

KK: Thank you very much for having me, James.

James: Yeah, most welcome. Thanks KK.

KK: Love to be back on your show again, sometimes when I'm a bigger syndicator

James: You are already a big syndicated. Thanks KK.

KK: Thank you. Thank you.

James: Let's get started. One, two, three... Hi, audience, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Investment Group. Today we are going to be having JC Castello from our Achieve Wealth True Value-add Real Estate Investing Podcast. And I would like to welcome JC to the podcast. Hey JC, welcome.

JC: Hey, thanks, James. Thanks for having me.

James: So JC has what? Right now, around 725 units worth around 70 million and he has bought and sold like 1000 over units. And he primarily focuses on DFW and he's in the Bay area. So, did I get all your facts right, JC?

JC: Yeah. You got in just about right. That's right.

James: So, do you want to tell our audience about, how did you get started? How is your company structured? Because your company structure, it's very interesting for me. So go ahead and do that.

JC: Yeah, I mean, how I got started in the multifamily business. I have an engineering degree and I've been working in the technology sector in a past life for about 15 to 20 years in semiconductors. And somewhere along the way, I always had a big passion for real estate. Pretty early on in my semiconductor career, I started buying single-family rentals in the Silicon Valley area and realized that I needed to be able to scale it a lot better because I was so busy with work that managing single-families wasn't all that easy. So I started just going to a lot of networking events, real estate clubs and whatnot, asking a lot of questions of people and I found out about apartments and found out that they were a lot more scalable. And so, I read everything I could. I got my hands in all kinds of books and went to lots of different seminars and training and networked with a bunch of the local investors here in Silicon Valley. I had sold a couple of my single-family homes originally wanted to buy an apartment complex here in San Jose. And I did all the numbers and it was negative cash flow, pretty much from the beginning. And I thought, well if I'm gonna buy for equity because there's no cash flow, I'd rather just keep buying homes because I think homes in Silicon Valley are better equity drivers than an apartment complex. So that led me to really look outside of California for cash flowing apartment investments. And I did a lot of research and everything was telling me that Texas was a great area to go. I mean, this was back in like 2004/5. And so, after a little bit of research and some time passed about 2006/7, I was ready to kinda go and take my money out to Texas and get it going. And so kind of, that's how I got started and that's kind of how my company was born.

James: Awesome. Awesome. So, yeah, I was in the Bay area a couple of days back and I'm meeting some of my investors. It's just so crazy, the prices there. And I mean, one of the investors asked me, 'You know, why don't you buy in this area?" I said, "I like to make money from thin air." Then he asked, "How is that?" I said, "I like my tenants to pay for my mortgage." So which means I want it to be cash flowing and I still get cashflow on top of it. So pay the mortgage and get cash flow. So if you buy in the Bay area or even in LA, I mean, a lot of coastal cities, just the cap rate is so low, you know, you basically, appreciation play, which means you buy the deal and you pray that it's going to go up. Right? So,

JC: Yeah. And look, I'm not here to tell you or tell anybody that investing in real estate in California is not a good thing. It's actually a very, very good thing. I mean, I own personal homes here in California and various places and they've been great investments for me, but they're not cash flow investments; they're equity plays. And so over the 10, 20, 30 years, absolutely; it's been phenomenally great, including any of the single family rentals that I had in the past. But I like to buy single family homes here in an equity state and I like to buy cash flowing properties for apartments in other more cashflow yielding places like Texas. So that's kind of my investment philosophy.

James: Got it, got it. So you started like in 2006, 2007. So at what point of your life was that, were you working at that time and how did you get that aha moment, okay, I need to invest in real estate?

JC: Yeah. Well you know, in 2001 and you would know this, James, I think you're an ex tech guy, there was the whole technology bubble burst. And I was several years out of college in a professional working environment, got laid off from an engineering job and that really caused me to do a little bit of reflection in 2001 after September 11 hit. And that's kind of where I had my aha moment, if you will. And right around that time, I read Rich Dad/ Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki, which changed my perspective on things as did I know a lot of other people. And it taught me about assets and liabilities first and foremost. Assets put money in your pocket, liabilities take money out of your pocket. And I realized that even though I had been a young guy that had been successful and, and bought my own single-family home, really, it wasn't putting money into my pocket because it was a liability. I had to pay the mortgage every month. So long story short, I decided that I was going to start investing in rental real estate as I got back into my next technology job, once the sort of 2001 recovery happened and that's what I did. Ever since then, I was like, look, real estate rentals are going to be what the thing that I'm going to do is and I'm pretty passionate about it anyways. I always liked real estate, so that's exactly kind of how I got started on my path. And I worked all the way up at my job until 2011 which is when I effectively left my W2 semiconductor job. I actually also helped start another company up with a couple of my other buddies from my ex-technology company. And so we did a startup company that was successful as well. And we did that from about 2012 to 2018. Actually the company's still going, but I'm no longer part of it. So I like to work really hard. James, I'll tell you that much.

James: That's crazy. So, I mean, you are a tech guy. I mean, I didn't know until we talk a few months back on how many similarities we have. I used to be in the semiconductor industry as well. So I mean, why not you looked at stock at that time? I mean a stock used to be like, I mean a lot of engineers, like for me, I was like intrigued with stocks. I was always saying, let me solve the worldwide puzzle here of the stock market. So did you try that as well?

JC: Yeah, definitely in my younger years. I mean, I drank the Koolaid like everybody else, you know, I was in love with the stock market. And I saw tech stocks, every day going up like gangbusters. So it was like, okay, let's pick Broadcom, let's pick Cisco, let's pick all these other tech stocks that were going to make us all multi-millionaires. And it was kind of a wild ride because there would be some big ups and then there would be some big downs. And so, it just got really frustrating because I find myself thinking about how our stocks were doing every day and sort of checking in on E-Trade accountants and seeing whether I had made money or lost money. And I just said, look, it's not worth it. I don't want to live like that. So, I think what I've learned since then is, look, I'm not here to say that the stock market isn't a great investment. I think what I'm here to say is that a financial advisor that's worth his salt is going to tell you that you should definitely have a good healthy mix of stocks, bonds, money market, and alternative assets, which real estate certainly fits the bill. And I think that 10 to 20% is about what people recommend that are financial experts in terms of how much you should be allocated to things like real estate. So I'm a big believer that people should never swing too much any one way. Make sure and be a little bit diversified, but certainly, 10 to 20% at least in real estate is a good healthy number.

James: Got it. Yeah, I mean, I was intrigued with stocks as well and you know, it's all technical analysis. I did a lot of book reading and trying to solve and you know, Japanese candlesticks books and all that. But I think it works with a lot of fear and emotion. I mean, fear is great, it works with a lot of emotions. Which is, you can say numbers don't lie but in the stock market, the numbers can be manipulated using fear and greed by big institutions and that's where I got caught. Every time I go to stock markets, I lose money.

JC: And the other thing too, I think the other thing that's important to understand is, it's not just about how much you're making before tax. One of the things that I think I'd made the mistake of as a younger person was not fully understanding how to invest with maximum tax sheltering and maximum tax advantage. And one of the things that I've seen with real estate investing is that there are huge tax incentives out there. Everything legal that encourages you as a real estate investor to keep doing it. And there are extremely, especially now with the tax cuts and jobs act that was passed and that went into effect in November of 2017. The benefits of the tax sheltering piece of real estate investing is extremely phenomenal. And so I think that the real aha moment is not just that you can invest in real estate and make good cash flow, but it's that you can invest in real estate, make good cash flow, and not pay taxes on that cash flow that you're putting in your pocket. That's really amazing.

James: Got it, got it. So, coming back to your transition from a W2 job to a full-time real estate entrepreneur. So you said you started in 2006, but only after quite a number of years. When did you become a full-time person?

JC: 2012.

James: Okay. So what were you thinking in 2012, beginning January of 2012, what were you thinking and when did you resign and what was that trigger that allowed you...?

JC: Well, you know, the trigger was, as I told you, I'm a 'slow and steady wins the race' type of person. My investment philosophy is 'go long, not short'. I always like to take the long route cause I believe in taking as little risk as possible to get where you want to get. So, I stayed with my company and my job for a long time and maybe even longer than I needed to because I also did another company with a couple of other buddies. But what that did was that gave me a real stable base so that I was never taking any risk. And so my route in real estate has never been to take big risks and I apply that same philosophy to our company in the way that we buy properties and the way that we look to partner with investors. We are always going to take the lower risk path. We're not just looking at yields and looking for the highest yields. We're looking for the highest mix of risk-adjusted returns. That's what we're looking for. And so that is I think a fundamental piece of why my journey took a little bit longer, in terms of transitioning away from a W2 job.

James: So did you have a goal of a certain income level, a certain percentage of your W2? I mean, you don't have, tell me the percentage, but was that goal that you decided if I hit this much income in real estate, okay, I'm going to go full time into this. I'm okay to let go of my...?

JC: Yeah. I mean, I definitely had some numbers in mind and they were, obviously, based on my costs of living. So as soon as I was able to bring in enough free cash flow that was greater than or equal to my cost of living with some margin, then I was comfortable exiting. And so, I think that's an important consideration for anybody that's doing this stuff. And you want to make sure, you know, you don't need to be necessarily significantly positive, but your costs of living, whatever it is, you should really be able to at least cover that. And I'm not talking about with like, you know, I'm talking about just with money coming in from rentals and whatnot, not talking about, you know all the other fees and whatnot that you generate.

James: Yeah. Yeah. Correct. I mean, just advice to whoever listening. Sometimes you go for the weekend boot camp and you think that there's no point of working a W2 job. I mean, there's no such thing, right? I mean, real estate is awesome but it takes time to get to a certain level of income. And especially if you have [13:22unintelligible] in life, just don't give up on your work and go into real estate; take it slow and steady and you will get there. I mean, there's a lot of learnings to be done in real estate anyway that you can't learn in a weekend boot camp.

JC: It's very, very wise words. And I hope that anybody out there would listen to that.

James: Yeah, absolutely. So now you're in California, right? I mean, I don't know which year was this. So now you look at Dallas. Why did Dallas flash in front of your eyes? Why not Phoenix or Austin or Orlando, Tampa?

JC: Well, Texas, as a whole. When I was doing my research, one of the big stats that jumped out to me was that I believe it was in 2008...I think it was 2008, Texas became the number two state in terms of the number of Fortune 500 companies headquartered in the state. It actually surpassed California. And before that, I had seen a lot of data that was telling me that this transition was happening from a corporate side. And from a corporate side, as we all know, Texas has a very business-friendly state. And I also saw a lot of migration patterns that were happening that were driving people away from the coastal areas, specifically California, and driving them to Texas. Also to Pheonix but not in the sheer magnitude that they were going to Texas. So really for me, what convinced me to go to Texas was the data and it was the job growth, the population growth. And the other thing that really convinced me was the quality of life that could be had in Texas for a relatively low amount of money. Back in 2006, when I first started buying out there, you could buy a pretty decent home for 150 to $200,000 in Dallas, Fort worth. Now, of course, you know, I had to decide, you know, it wasn't just Texas, it's where you're going to go in Texas. There are basically four major areas you can go; you can go to Houston, you can go to San Antonio, you can go to Austin or you can go to DFW. I chose DFW because Houston, to me, was a little bit more of an oil-based economy so I didn't like being dependent on oil. If the oil was good, everything's good in Houston. If oil goes bad, it can be a little bit difficult. And Austin, I really, really liked; I continue to love Austin. However, I always knew that Austin was like Silicon Valley. The dirt is very expensive, so the cap rates are a little bit lower so they don't cash flow quite as well. But I still do like Austin if I had to say, the second market in Texas. San Antonio is just sort of a little bit slow and steady. There's really no significant job growth, at least not significant, you know, amazingly. And there's slow and steady population growth. So everything in San Antonio is hunky-dory for a long time, but there's no real like superstar momentum there. DFW, on the other hand to me, had a lot of the characteristics that I felt was perfect for an investment home for me. I wanted to be there for 10, 20, 30, 40 years. They've got a very diverse economy, lots of different jobs sectors and they are tops in the nation for job growth, population growth, consistently. And the quality of life there is very, very good. There are 8 million people, 4th largest metroplex in the nation behind New York, one; LA, two and Chicago three. And actually, of those top three, they're all sort of negative population. So meaning, they're losing people in Texas; Dallas Fort worth is gaining. So for all those reasons, I thought back then that this would be a great place for us to go set up shop and I haven't been disappointed. It's been a great run, to be honest with ya.

James: Got it. So now you decided on Dallas. What was the first step? I mean, who did you first establish contact with and how did you build your team?

JC: Yeah, you know I was a big believer in shadowing people. So I had a couple of friends that I had met and gotten to know in the local Silicon Valley real estate circles who were buying apartments in Dallas. And so, I would shadow them. I would get on a plane and go with them when they would go check on their properties. And because they saw that I was willing to do that, they took me around to the local brokerage shops, Marcus & Millichap and all the other shops and they introduced me to all the brokers. And because these guys were already doing deals and established when the brokers met me, I had a little bit of credibility, not much, but I had more than just if I had come in on my own without them saying that I was a good guy. So that's the way that I got my start in the apartment world in Dallas, coming from California.

James: Got it. So, I mean, if I understand your business, you own the asset management, but you also own your own property management company.

JC: That's correct. Yeah. We opened up shop in 2013. We integrated the third party operations in house and we formed our own management company and we've been managing our own properties since then.

James: So that's really unique because I mean, even for me, we have our own property management company, but we are here in Austin, San Antonio, so we are locals. But how did you do it from California and then you establish a property management company and why did you decide to do that rather than a third-party property management company?

JC: Well, the how and the why. The why, I sometimes ask myself why multiple times. But I know after getting through all the hard times and now that we've got a model that works really, really well, I know that it was worth it for us. Because we have a large degree of predictability by having operations in house. I never throw stones at third party management companies because I've walked a mile in their shoes now. And I think it's a difficult business even when you control it yourself. And I think that third party managers, for the most part, are extremely good. I'm not here to say that we have built a significantly better mousetrap, but what we do have is we have a mousetrap that we built. And so, we know the process of how we go to market with it and we know what the numbers are and so, we have a high degree of predictability for our investors. At the end of the day, it's all about making sure that we deliver what we said we're going to do for our investors. And so the predictability piece that we have by having the operations in-house for us is key. How did I do it? You know, it wasn't easy. I think that you have to look for a superstar person that you can find that has enough talent to be able to sort of get this off the ground in the local market that you've built your portfolio in. And I was fortunate enough to find that person through a lot of hard work and some luck. And once I found that person, I knew that it was going to work and that was the big difference for me.

James: And when you started in 2013, how many units did you have that you were convinced that you can have your own property management company?

JC: It wasn't that many. I think we had maybe four properties, maybe five properties, something like that.

James: Like a few hundred units.

JC: Yeah. A few hundred units. Yeah, that's right.

James: So who was this first person, what was that person's role? I mean, you don't have to name names, but I want to know the role of that person.

JC: I mean, they were the VP of Operations. That's what they did. Everything related to operations was what they were responsible for.

James: So you hired VP of Operations and from VP of Operation, the other person hired the rest of the crew?

JC: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, look, we're only 725 units currently, so we don't necessarily have a bunch of regional managers working for our company and we're set up a little bit differently than sort of your traditional management companies. But what I will say is that you really need that foundational person, that foundational piece if you want to have a successful operation in any one given market.

James: Okay. Okay. Got it. But what was that aha moment in 2012 that you said, okay, I can't do this anymore 2013, I'm going to do my own property management? What was that push over the cliff moment that you said, okay, I'm giving up on this?

JC: You know, I can't say that there was any one particular thing. I think that it was always our strategy to open up our own shop because we wanted to make sure that we had a high degree of predictability within the operations piece. And that's a very valuable component for our investment partners. Being fully integrated doesn't mean much unless it provides good predictability for returns. And what we've seen is that we've enjoyed a very, very high degree of predictability with having our own operations piece. So we're going to continue to have that as part of our model, but at the same time, we're never completely committed to any one particular thing. So meaning that we have a fiduciary duty to do what's best for our investors. If at any given time we understood that our operations or our management piece wasn't the best strategy, then we would certainly look at divesting that piece. I don't see that happening, but we're always open to making sure that we're doing the best thing for our investors.

James: So how frequently do you travel from California to Dallas to manage this operation?

JC: Well, I tried to get out there, my wife will say I'm out there all the time and I sometimes look back at my calendar and go, yeah, I think she might be right. But usually, it works out to be about six to eight weeks time, is how long I'm out there. And I'm usually out there for a couple of days and I get back to the home base.

James: So six to eight weeks through it the year?

JC: Right.

James: Got it. Got it. So you've tried maybe like once a month or less than once a month, depends on...?

JC: Yeah. And it's really as needed too because I have a pretty good system. So I mean, I can jump on a plane tomorrow morning and so it just depends. I get out there as needed, you know, immediately when needed.

James: Okay. So let's go into the operational aspects. So you're in California, your operation management, the whole company is here. You have a VP of Operations, you are sitting that you're not coming to Dallas. So tell me like in a week, how would you manage this operation? Is it through Zoom calls, through weekly meetings, through properties or how do you do your asset management?

JC: Well, first of all, asset management is handled by a separate person at our company, at multifamily property group. So we do have an asset management person. And in terms of operations, I think as you rightly pointed out, there's a lot of things that we do with technology these days to make it pretty efficient to be managing from another state; Zoom meeting, like what we're doing here is a great one. Lots of phone calls, lots of emails. And also I'm a big believer in driving the company by key performance indices or indicators. And so KPIs, for us, are a big deal because we pretty much keep on top of the numbers from a day to day basis and we manage according to how the numbers are telling us to manage and we go deep where we see that we're having issues with any one particular area. And so, we have a pretty structured way about how we monitor what's happening on the operations piece. And everybody's got a pretty strict lead defined set of roles and responsibilities, which kind of helps to keep everything in motion even though I'm not in the Dallas area.

James: Got it. So how frequent do you look at your financials?

JC: How frequently do we look at it? I mean, almost every day.

James: Okay, good. So when you look at it everyday, what are the KPIs that you look for to see whether the properties are in the right direction or not?

JC: Yeah. The big ones we're going to track are income to budget. We're gonna track expenses to budget, especially repairs and maintenance and CAPEX. A CAPEX, the budget, we're going to track, we're going to track current vacancy and we're going to track future vacancy. We're also going to pay strict attention to resident retention; how many people are actually renewing their leases? One of the things on the operational piece that we've learned along the way is that you have basically with the property, you've got a front door and you've got a back door. The front door is where you lease the new units and you bring the new residents in. And the back door is where you have people either renewing their leases after they've been there for a year or you have them leaving your property. And we like to talk about closing the back door because if we can get people to renew their leases, that is worth literally thousands of dollars in expenses and vacancy and marketing to our profitability. So, I think as operators and as investors, we always want to think about buying a property and renovating it and filling it up with people. But we should more care about keeping the people happy and butts in the seats because that's where we're really going to save our money once the property has been stabilized. It takes about 18 months to 24 months to stabilize a property once you buy it and create the value. But then if you're a longterm holder, like we are, you're holding the property for a long period of time. And that's really dependent on how well you operate, how well you provide customer service and how well you can keep the people renewing their leases. So for us, we really like to focus on resident retention. That's a really big deal for us.

James: So that's one of the biggest KPI that you look for, resident retention?

JC: Absolutely.

James: Making sure that back doors close. So can you tell us like one to two things that you do to keep residents renewing?

JC: You know, it's really simple, right? You don't want to get too caught up in a lot of complicated stuff so one of the biggest things that you need to do is follow up with people after work orders. Make sure that they're happy. Make sure that the work order was completed.; first of all, completed. Second of all, was it done right? And third of all was the customer happy with the experience? James: So, I think the resident retention is one of the most important things that you guys look at, especially closing the back door. And can you tell us one to two things that you and your company do to make sure that people keep on renewing or motivated to renew?

JC: Yeah, I mean, it's important to focus on from a very high level, really the most what should be obviously simple strategies and have a process in place to make sure that it gets followed through. Like, for example, if there's a worker that's placed, following up with the person with a phone call, the customer, and saying, "Hey, was the work order done to your satisfaction? Did you have a good experience, how did you feel about it?" And that's a big deal because a lot of people that don't have work orders completed the right way are the ones that are gonna end up leaving the property with a bad taste in their mouth. And then a lot of people are actually surprised when we call them and they basically are just happy that we chose to call them and follow up. And that actually makes them so much happier, to begin with. So I think following up on work orders. The other thing is following up after a move in and making sure that the unit was fully functional; if there was something that was missed, making sure that you take care of it. And then the other thing that I think is really important is when it comes time to renew, you need to give the resident enough runway, to listen to them when you want to call them to renew. Because they're always going to have some concerns, either if the rent's going up or something. But normally it's actually, a lot of times it's just, "Hey, you know, I've got a couple of things wrong with my unit and I need you to fix them." And so, you've gotta be able to actually talk to them and understand why they're frustrated and fix those things and then they're willing to renew. So I think basic follow up is really the key. Following up with the resident on some sort of a documented frequency that enables you to keep a pulse on how they're feeling about their experience.

James: Got it. Got it. So I presume that most of the deals that you buy, you try to do value add on the apartment, right? I mean, you guys do renovation, you've put in good management and all the smaller things in the interior and exterior, is that right?

JC: Yeah, I mean basically you got it right. So number one is, acquire the deal at the right numbers. Number two is, renovate; which includes exterior amenities and unit upgrades. And then number three is, put a great operations team in place. And so those are sort of the three pillars of a successful investment and a successful life cycle of an investment for us at least.

James: Got it. So what is the most valuable value add that you think in your mind that gives you the biggest bang for the buck?

JC: You know, I really couldn't point to any one thing. What I would say is that your upgrades to your units are really important. Because a lot of people get sort of jaded by the exterior pops, like, you know, put some paint on the walls and stuff. But I've found that unit upgrades are really at the core of what you want to give in terms of your experience to the customers when they're walking through. And then the other thing that's really important is that there's a cohesive feel to the renovations that you do from the exterior; be it the painting or the amenities improvements. One of the things that I think people miss a lot is that they put money into exterior items, but there doesn't seem to be a cohesive feel. It doesn't feel like a clean, unified vision for what you wanted to present to the customer. And I think that's a big deal. It goes all the way down to the color schemes and it goes down to the signage and how that matches with the colors and how it matches with the amenities and also how it flows into the leasing office. You know, do the colors and the vision and what you're portraying with the signage and the exterior, does it match to what somebody is walking into the front door to lease a unit? Furthermore, do the units, sort of, match to the vision of what the exterior is saying? So, I think that it's not just one of these things, it's basically having a holistic approach to how you tie it all together so that it feels like a common vision when you drive to the front door all the way till when you go into the model unit.

James: Got it. Interesting. Because you are looking at more of cohesiveness of the whole units and how they feel than a specific item. So let's go to your personal side of it. So I mean, you started in 2006 and then now it's 2019, you bought and sold like thousand units. So you must have a good write on the apartment cycles. So why do you do what you do?

JC: Why do I do what I do? That's a good question. I think that ultimately what we're doing here is we're basically building a business that is focused on providing a great value to the community, to the customers, to the people that we rent our units to. I think it sounds cliche, but actually I think not enough people to do what we do actually talk about it. You know, when we come into a property and we invest multiple millions of dollars in the renovations and do the transformation of the property, really what we're doing is we're improving the lives of the community that lives there. And it makes a big difference in, we get told all the time how much they care to see all the stuff that we're doing. And so the first thing is making a difference in the community, I think is what's really, really cool. And we've done that over many, many properties now. So we've gotten to see that time and time again. I think the second thing is, partners. So we work with a lot of amazing partners, contractors, vendors, lenders, lawyers; there's so many that I can go on and on with. But what's really special about what we're doing is that we've developed really close relationships with a lot of these people that have been with us for many years. And so, we've become somewhat of friends with them as well as business associates. So it's really great to kind of see how much our success has impacted their success as well. And sort of a 'rising tide floats all boats things' mentality is where I get a lot of joy, personal satisfaction out of what we've done here. And I think the third thing is really is it's about our investors. I mean, I can tell you personal stories of many people that I'm very good friends with that have come along the ride for us, that we have literally changed their lives because of these great investments that we've been able to do over the years. And so I think that this business is about touching people's lives. Touching people's lives in every single aspect of what we're doing. For me, that's what really makes it fun for me every day.

James: Would you do this same role for the next 20 years?

JC: Yeah, of course, man. I'm not retiring. I mean, this is great. You know, we've got a great team, we've got a great company. And real estate investing to me it's more of a lifestyle thing too. So to be honest with you, this is something that I believe in doing irrespective of my company. This is sort of a personal belief that real estate investing is a very, very good way to take the money that you're making from whatever method that you're generating it and pump it into something that's going to give you a longterm return.

James: Got it. Got it. Was there a proud moment in real estate that you think you will never forget that you can ride it on your tombstone?

JC: Yeah. Well, I don't think I'm gonna put anything real estate related on my tombstone.

James: Of course not. But if there was something that when you are at a very old age, you're going to think I'm really, really proud that I did that, can you describe that moment?

JC: No, I don't think I've gotten there yet, man. I think there's still so much more to be done. You know, any proud moments, I think they're all stepping stones. I'm telling you, every day I wake up and I'm excited about where we're taking the company, things that we're doing to grow the company, new ideas that we've got. And I don't think we've reached our full potential in any way, shape, form, or fashion.

James: Okay. no, what I mean is like, did you touch any employee in a certain way that, in terms of changing their life, any tenants, any property that you think that we really did a good job and that I'm really, really proud of that.

JC: Yeah. I mean, you know, nothing particular comes to mind. I mean, look, I can give you a million examples, right? But the very last property, for example, that we renovated, I thought that it was the best one we've ever done. And I thought that just seeing the people that have been writing reviews on our property, coming online reviews and whatnot and hearing the feedback that we get from our management or our onsite staff has been so happy that we've made the change with the property. So yeah, that's very rewarding to us for sure.

James: Got it. Got it. Top three things that you want to advice newbies who wanna walk your path.

JC: I'm only going to give you one. I think it's the most important one. It is 'go long, not short.' Take the long road, do it slow and steady. Don't take unnecessary risks and make sure that you build the foundation and spend your time building a foundation solidly before you try to go too fast. I think that that's a mistake that a lot of people make. And I think that doing it slow and steady is there's a lot of benefits to that. And that's the way that we built our company. James: Got it. Got it. Yeah. I see so many craze out there on people want to do so many big things very quickly in real estate now because it is how the market is right now. So what's your strategy right now in this market cycle?

JC: I don't think we really changed our strategy. We remain and always have been. We are opportunistic buyers and we're strategic sellers. I've talked about that before, I did a blog post on that. And the way that we've always seen it is, strategically speaking, if it's the right time to exit an asset, we're going to do it. It's been a great time lately to sell properties. It's also been a great time to keep properties, be a net keeper. We talk about that too. Opportunistically buying simply means that if we find a great deal, we don't care whether it's a hot market or a down market or a sideways market. If it's a great deal and the numbers work, we're going to pull the trigger. We know exactly what we're looking for. We've been around long enough to know that when we see that type of a deal and we've got the right relationships in place with the brokerage shop to do it. We're gonna make it happen because what we've seen is we've had some of our best acquisitions in what some people would call a seller's market or on a hot market, an upmarket. And so I think being an opportunistic buyer and always being ready to strike if the right numbers present themselves is where you need to be positioned.

James: Got it. Got it. Before we end, I've asked you this question, which is completely different from what other questions I asked and normally it's not in my mind. But you are from California, investing in Dallas so you know a lot about these two markets. So do you think when recession hits...I mean, that's already a lot of people moving to Texas and Florida and maybe Phoenix. Do you think when the recession happened, there's going to be a lot more people moving...

JC: Moving to Texas?

James: Yes. I mean all this Texas and Florida and other markets.

JC: Well, I don't know the answer to that question per se. But what I can tell you is this; it's becoming increasingly difficult to be a very smart college graduate in Silicon Valley and be able to see yourself making a life out here. And so even now with the job market being pretty decent, people are still leaving. And they're leaving because they just can't see themselves being willing to spend so much money to buy a house here, on top of the student loans that they've got and on top of the cost of living that they've got with high rents and whatnot, how do you save to buy a home here? And so, I don't think that that's going to change and I don't think that it matters whether we have a blip on the radar with the recession. The fundamentals are such that it's creating a very big incentive for people to move out, to go to other states where they can look to buy a home with a little bit more ease, can actually afford to pay rent with a little bit more ease. And so it's naturally speaking, we, as a company, believe that there's going to be continual growth. And in markets like Dallas Fortworth right now where rents are still, even as they'd gone up are still below the median affordability across the nation. Obviously, Silicon Valley is on the opposite end of that spectrum with San Francisco and San Jose, you got some of the highest rents in the nation. It's very unaffordable for how much people make here. So I personally think that the migration away from the coastal communities is going to continue. I don't see that trend stopping anytime soon.

James: Yeah. No, I'm not saying it's going to stop. I think it's going to double or triple because when the recession happens, I mean, people are gonna lose jobs. And where your house mortgage is fixed, the house mortgage not gonna reduce. But if you are losing your job, people are gonna take that equity and at least move to cheapo States, like where they can pay less in mortgage and buy better houses and lead a better life, I guess, in terms of house expenses. Because I read some article that on average in the US, somebody's paying like, 60% of their pay going to mortgage. I think it's much higher in the Silicon Valley and Bay area. So what's the point of living and paying 80% to the house? There's a lot of other things you want to enjoy.

JC: I agree. I agree. I mean, that's exactly why we're moving our investments out there to places like Texas for sure. I completely agree with that.

James: Got it. Got it. Alright. JC, tell our audience how to get hold of you and if you want to give your contact information.

JC: Yeah. If anybody out there wants to check us out, they can go to our website, multifamilypropertygroup.com. But more importantly, I actually host a video podcast with one of my buddies, Paul Peoples. It's a weekly show, it's called the Apartment Investors Show. So if you wanna actually see us in action, talking about how to make smart investments in multifamily, you can go to YouTube and search for the Apartment Investors Show. And we've got a whole host of great curated videos where we bring in experts in many different facets of multifamily investing. And you might learn a thing or two if you go to that, to our show.

James: I'm sure that everybody's going to learn a lot of things because I've seen some of the videos. It was really good.

JC: Thank you.

James: Awesome, JC. That's it. Thanks for coming on the show. And happy that you add a lot of value to our audience and listeners.

JC: Yeah, thanks a lot for hosting. I really appreciate it. I had a good time.

James: Thank you. Bye.

JC: All right, bye-bye.